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(Five Thirty-Eight)   MLB's recognition of stats of Negro Leagues players means record books are changing; best single-season batting average belongs to Josh Gibson, who hit .441 in 1943   (projects.fivethirtyeight.com) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Negro league baseball, Major League Baseball, Negro Leagues, statistics of players, career games, Baseball, current players, indispensable Seamheads Negro Leagues database  
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413 clicks; posted to Sports » on 25 Feb 2021 at 10:45 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



23 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2021-02-25 11:01:09 PM  
Call me old, but I don't understand this WAR  stuff. Give me good old Strat-O-Matic stats to go on. That being said, Gibson's .441 batting average is HUGE. ... I am looking forward to seeing the new record books!
 
2021-02-25 11:12:52 PM  
Win Shares guy myself, don't put a lot of faith in WAR, especially for defensive values.   Anyway, the biggest problem with Negro Leagues stats has always been the uneven coverage by the papers.   To me, the further back you go in baseball, the closer it gets to current minor league values.   MLB also recognizes National Association stats and the Union Ass'n and Federal League, and those weren't anything like Major League stats.   I would love to see every start and split from Satchel Paige's career, but there are many months that are just gone.
 
2021-02-25 11:26:15 PM  
Come back to me when someone bats .500.
 
2021-02-26 2:17:34 AM  
Oh good this will end well.

I look forward to the Masshole chapter of the proud boys invading Cooperstown
 
2021-02-26 2:19:59 AM  

Stud Gerbil: Win Shares guy myself, don't put a lot of faith in WAR, especially for defensive values.   Anyway, the biggest problem with Negro Leagues stats has always been the uneven coverage by the papers.   To me, the further back you go in baseball, the closer it gets to current minor league values.   MLB also recognizes National Association stats and the Union Ass'n and Federal League, and those weren't anything like Major League stats.   I would love to see every start and split from Satchel Paige's career, but there are many months that are just gone.


There's a reason that Elias Sports Bureau doesn't recognize WAR as an official statistic. Ask any sabermetric need to define what the stat is & you'll likely get 15 different answers.

I love baseball. It's probably still my favorite sport. But the overkill of stats is ultimately what's killing the game. Most people want to come home after a long day & flip on a ball game. They don't want to do complicated calculations just to come to the same conclusion that Mike Trout is really Farking good at baseball.
 
2021-02-26 4:43:08 AM  
Straight Outta Wells Branch: I love baseball. It's probably still my favorite sport. But the overkill of stats is ultimately what's killing the game. Most people want to come home after a long day & flip on a ball game. They don't want to do complicated calculations just to come to the same conclusion that Mike Trout is really Farking good at baseball.

I'd like to see some numbers on that.
 
2021-02-26 6:21:17 AM  

r0rw: Oh good this will end well.

I look forward to the Masshole chapter of the proud boys invading Cooperstown


I am one of the few Boston Braves fans in existence and even I forgot that Hugh Duffy had the record. Most pink hats and most of the media, for that matter, tend to forget the Braves ever existed. (Case in point, in the last ten years, WCVB has put out a little poster with all the Boston championships on it in banner form, and multiple times they've had to fix it to include the 1914 Braves WS title.)

\not so fun fact, there is literally one living Boston Brave left, Del Crandall
\\if his death gets a green, and I don't submit it, be worried for my health
 
2021-02-26 8:18:21 AM  
Who owns that coveted multiple multiple base hits with runners in scoring positions on a Wednesday stat?
 
2021-02-26 8:24:59 AM  

Straight Outta Wells Branch: I love baseball. It's probably still my favorite sport. But the overkill of stats is ultimately what's killing the game. Most people want to come home after a long day & flip on a ball game. They don't want to do complicated calculations just to come to the same conclusion that Mike Trout is really Farking good at baseball.


I love it when they pull obscure factoids out of their asses, like "first third baseman to have back to back hits three games in a row in three different parks from lefty pitchers with mustaches" or the like, but these endless meaningless numbers are just stupid.
 
2021-02-26 8:29:05 AM  
I can already see what the Cooperstown response will be.

Incomplete records, lack of contemporary records.
 
2021-02-26 8:47:42 AM  
If they are going to take Negro League stats as major league level, Josh Gibson is also your new home run king.

/Best catcher in baseball history
//
///Second slashie is blank to show how far above everyone else he was...
 
2021-02-26 9:04:37 AM  

Mad Canadian: If they are going to take Negro League stats as major league level, Josh Gibson is also your new home run king.

/Best catcher in baseball history
//
///Second slashie is blank to show how far above everyone else he was...


Really? In single season or career? Genuinely curious.
 
2021-02-26 9:21:15 AM  

Eddie Hazel's E string: Mad Canadian: If they are going to take Negro League stats as major league level, Josh Gibson is also your new home run king.

/Best catcher in baseball history
//
///Second slashie is blank to show how far above everyone else he was...

Really? In single season or career? Genuinely curious.


For his career.

His plaque in Cooperstown says he hit "almost 800 home runs", but with poor to non-existent record keeping, it's obviously just a really educated guess.

Some guy named Buck O'Neil said that the three most powerful hitters he ever heard hitting a baseball were Babe Ruth, Josh Gibson and Bo Jackson...
 
2021-02-26 9:51:29 AM  

CaptainCalico: I don't understand this WAR  stuff. Give me good old Strat-O-Matic stats to go on.


I know, right?  WAR, yeah.  What is it good for?  Absolutely nothing!
 
2021-02-26 9:55:30 AM  

Stud Gerbil: Win Shares guy myself, don't put a lot of faith in WAR, especially for defensive values.   Anyway, the biggest problem with Negro Leagues stats has always been the uneven coverage by the papers.   To me, the further back you go in baseball, the closer it gets to current minor league values.   MLB also recognizes National Association stats and the Union Ass'n and Federal League, and those weren't anything like Major League stats.   I would love to see every start and split from Satchel Paige's career, but there are many months that are just gone.


It's the biggest drawback regarding Negro League stats:  record keeping was, at best, sparse because the resources (even for that time) were nothing close to the level of more mainstream papers for the era.

So, for all we know, a NLer might have broken Babe Ruth's HR record before Maris did (in a shorter amount of games).  A NLer might have struckout more than even Nolan Ryan did throughout his career. So on and so forth.
 
2021-02-26 9:57:59 AM  

Straight Outta Wells Branch: Stud Gerbil: Win Shares guy myself, don't put a lot of faith in WAR, especially for defensive values.   Anyway, the biggest problem with Negro Leagues stats has always been the uneven coverage by the papers.   To me, the further back you go in baseball, the closer it gets to current minor league values.   MLB also recognizes National Association stats and the Union Ass'n and Federal League, and those weren't anything like Major League stats.   I would love to see every start and split from Satchel Paige's career, but there are many months that are just gone.

There's a reason that Elias Sports Bureau doesn't recognize WAR as an official statistic. Ask any sabermetric need to define what the stat is & you'll likely get 15 different answers.

I love baseball. It's probably still my favorite sport. But the overkill of stats is ultimately what's killing the game. Most people want to come home after a long day & flip on a ball game. They don't want to do complicated calculations just to come to the same conclusion that Mike Trout is really Farking good at baseball.


Part of the desire for more stats is the fact that for decades, Major League teams overpaid for FAs without understanding their true worth.  Stats like WAR and BaBIP were great for stats geeks but ML teams see the value in such stats in order to either pay for a FA or stay away.
 
2021-02-26 10:00:37 AM  

Mad Canadian: Eddie Hazel's E string: Mad Canadian: If they are going to take Negro League stats as major league level, Josh Gibson is also your new home run king.

/Best catcher in baseball history
//
///Second slashie is blank to show how far above everyone else he was...

Really? In single season or career? Genuinely curious.

For his career.

His plaque in Cooperstown says he hit "almost 800 home runs", but with poor to non-existent record keeping, it's obviously just a really educated guess.


There's an argument that Gibson broke both the single season AND career HR record but, again, for sparse record-keeping, there's not much to back those assertions up.

Some guy named Buck O'Neil said that the three most powerful hitters he ever heard hitting a baseball were Babe Ruth, Josh Gibson and Bo Jackson...

This.  That's elite company when he was comparing Bo to both the Babe AND to Gibson.
 
2021-02-26 12:27:31 PM  

r0rw: Oh good this will end well.

I look forward to the Masshole chapter of the proud boys invading Cooperstown


balltribe.comView Full Size


"Oh, that's amusing."
 
2021-02-26 1:31:54 PM  
Funny thing about Josh Gibson is on the last day of the season his average was .4395. Ordinarily that would be rounded up to .440, but back then in the Negro Leagues they had to round down. Though an average of .4395 wouldn't become .439, but instead .430 because whitey forced them to REALLY round down. Anyhow, he went out on the last game of the season and went 17 for 17, winning 1-0. True story.
 
2021-02-26 3:48:41 PM  
Good.

F Ted Williams.
 
2021-02-26 4:05:08 PM  

FriarReb98: r0rw: Oh good this will end well.

I look forward to the Masshole chapter of the proud boys invading Cooperstown

I am one of the few Boston Braves fans in existence and even I forgot that Hugh Duffy had the record. Most pink hats and most of the media, for that matter, tend to forget the Braves ever existed. (Case in point, in the last ten years, WCVB has put out a little poster with all the Boston championships on it in banner form, and multiple times they've had to fix it to include the 1914 Braves WS title.)


Do you go hang out over at Nickerson Field and visit the portions of Braves Field that are still standing?
 
2021-02-26 4:15:23 PM  

jayfurr: FriarReb98: r0rw: Oh good this will end well.

I look forward to the Masshole chapter of the proud boys invading Cooperstown

I am one of the few Boston Braves fans in existence and even I forgot that Hugh Duffy had the record. Most pink hats and most of the media, for that matter, tend to forget the Braves ever existed. (Case in point, in the last ten years, WCVB has put out a little poster with all the Boston championships on it in banner form, and multiple times they've had to fix it to include the 1914 Braves WS title.)

Do you go hang out over at Nickerson Field and visit the portions of Braves Field that are still standing?


I've marched on them in high school - that's where marching band finals used to be held when it was still a football stadium. It is the most expansive portion of one of the 14 "classic" stadiums still standing.
 
2021-02-26 9:44:41 PM  

Rwa2play: Mad Canadian: Eddie Hazel's E string: Mad Canadian: If they are going to take Negro League stats as major league level, Josh Gibson is also your new home run king.

/Best catcher in baseball history
//
///Second slashie is blank to show how far above everyone else he was...

Really? In single season or career? Genuinely curious.

For his career.

His plaque in Cooperstown says he hit "almost 800 home runs", but with poor to non-existent record keeping, it's obviously just a really educated guess.

There's an argument that Gibson broke both the single season AND career HR record but, again, for sparse record-keeping, there's not much to back those assertions up.

Some guy named Buck O'Neil said that the three most powerful hitters he ever heard hitting a baseball were Babe Ruth, Josh Gibson and Bo Jackson...

This.  That's elite company when he was comparing Bo to both the Babe AND to Gibson.


Unfortunately, Buck didn't live long enough to see Aaron Judge...or his name would most likely be there.
 
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