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(Boing Boing)   Remember that business that decided to pay all its employees 70k Salaries? I wonder how they are doing... oh.. oh.. oh no... covid... wait...they're doing fine, most employees happily agreed to a 30% pay cut until conditions improved   (boingboing.net) divider line
    More: Followup, Wage, Minimum wage, Employment, Dan Price of the credit card, company Gravity Payments, early April, long-time employees, business partner  
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825 clicks; posted to Business » on 26 Jan 2021 at 8:14 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-01-26 5:53:45 PM  
And are now paying said employees back

This just keeps farking up the conservatives plot line
 
2021-01-26 6:03:01 PM  
Proving Rush wrong again, just like any other day.
 
2021-01-26 8:37:29 PM  
And people get mad at the mere suggestion of socialism. This is a much better way to run a company. There are no reasons why medium and large companies can't be run this way. Except sheer greed on the part of the few and the lackeys who defend their greedy leaders for pathetic reasons.
 
2021-01-26 8:45:35 PM  

Nadie_AZ: And people get mad at the mere suggestion of socialism. This is a much better way to run a company. There are no reasons why medium and large companies can't be run this way. Except sheer greed on the part of the few and the lackeys who defend their greedy leaders for pathetic reasons.


It's not even socialism, the workers own no part of the company or its capital, but since they are fairly and evenly compensated it seems like they have more willingness to co-operate to save everyone, including management.  Go figure.  Plus if they are simply accruing a labor debt against future revenue, it's not like they lose anything in the long term unless the business folds without paying them, at which point they still made most of their paycheck while everyone else was out of work.  Glad to see them win.
 
2021-01-26 8:49:49 PM  
Loyalty is a two way street with equal traffic.
 
2021-01-26 9:08:27 PM  
I was just thinking about this company the other day.

I live in expensive af NJ and would die for a $72k salary.
 
2021-01-26 9:36:49 PM  

baka-san: And are now paying said employees back

This just keeps farking up the conservatives plot line


I really don't think it does though. I mean, whether you agree with them or not, I don't think you are representing their argument fairly.

A conservative isn't going to have any problem with you starting a business and paying everyone $250k a year.

What this business shows us, is that one possible successful business model is to pay employees higher than the market rate.

Only, haven't we always known this?

Google pays it's software developers far better the market rate and they are successful. There is a long history of this too, it's not new.

Paying people more than the market rate gives you the ability to be more selective and hire top candidates. And top candidates, can, give you a competitive edge over your competition.

Conservatives are fine with all is this, until you mandate it by law. And that changes the dynamic considerably. If you aren't paying more than everyone else, you don't get the top talent or the competitive advantage. You just get, ya know, higher costs.
 
2021-01-26 9:45:12 PM  
Sure. If I was originally making $36k and got bumped to $70k, in order to save my job that I know will go back to paying $70k, I'd take a 30% pay cut.
 
2021-01-26 9:46:36 PM  

edmo: Proving Rush wrong again, just like any other day.


It seems to me, I could live my life
A lot better than I think I am
I guess that's why they call me
They call me the working man

They call me the working man
I guess that's what I am
 
2021-01-26 10:23:26 PM  

Nadie_AZ: And people get mad at the mere suggestion of socialism. This is a much better way to run a company. There are no reasons why medium and large companies can't be run this way. Except sheer greed on the part of the few and the lackeys who defend their greedy leaders for pathetic reasons.


Encountered this far too often in science.   I'D GIVE MY LEFT ARM, A TESTICLE AND A KIDNEY TO DO RESEARCH IM AMAZED THEY PAY US AT ALL I'D GIVE IT BACK IF THEY'D LET ME!!!

All I could think was "you're the reason they pay us shiat, we get limited benefits, work ridiculous hours, and can't unionize."
 
2021-01-26 10:25:28 PM  

born_yesterday: Nadie_AZ: And people get mad at the mere suggestion of socialism. This is a much better way to run a company. There are no reasons why medium and large companies can't be run this way. Except sheer greed on the part of the few and the lackeys who defend their greedy leaders for pathetic reasons.

Encountered this far too often in science.   I'D GIVE MY LEFT ARM, A TESTICLE AND A KIDNEY TO DO RESEARCH IM AMAZED THEY PAY US AT ALL I'D GIVE IT BACK IF THEY'D LET ME!!!

All I could think was "you're the reason they pay us shiat, we get limited benefits, work ridiculous hours, and can't unionize."


What field in science? Some are paid crap but others half decent.
 
2021-01-26 10:28:31 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: baka-san: And are now paying said employees back

This just keeps farking up the conservatives plot line

I really don't think it does though. I mean, whether you agree with them or not, I don't think you are representing their argument fairly.

A conservative isn't going to have any problem with you starting a business and paying everyone $250k a year.

What this business shows us, is that one possible successful business model is to pay employees higher than the market rate.

Only, haven't we always known this?

Google pays it's software developers far better the market rate and they are successful. There is a long history of this too, it's not new.

Paying people more than the market rate gives you the ability to be more selective and hire top candidates. And top candidates, can, give you a competitive edge over your competition.

Conservatives are fine with all is this, until you mandate it by law. And that changes the dynamic considerably. If you aren't paying more than everyone else, you don't get the top talent or the competitive advantage. You just get, ya know, higher costs.


and the solution to stagnant wages in the face of increases in cost of living?  (i am talking housing medical and food... not walmart big screens)
 
2021-01-26 10:57:33 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: baka-san: And are now paying said employees back

This just keeps farking up the conservatives plot line

I really don't think it does though. I mean, whether you agree with them or not, I don't think you are representing their argument fairly.

A conservative isn't going to have any problem with you starting a business and paying everyone $250k a year.

What this business shows us, is that one possible successful business model is to pay employees higher than the market rate.

Only, haven't we always known this?

Google pays it's software developers far better the market rate and they are successful. There is a long history of this too, it's not new.

Paying people more than the market rate gives you the ability to be more selective and hire top candidates. And top candidates, can, give you a competitive edge over your competition.

Conservatives are fine with all is this, until you mandate it by law. And that changes the dynamic considerably. If you aren't paying more than everyone else, you don't get the top talent or the competitive advantage. You just get, ya know, higher costs.


Weird. So setting a floor lowers the ceiling?
 
2021-01-26 11:40:05 PM  

born_yesterday: Nadie_AZ: And people get mad at the mere suggestion of socialism. This is a much better way to run a company. There are no reasons why medium and large companies can't be run this way. Except sheer greed on the part of the few and the lackeys who defend their greedy leaders for pathetic reasons.

Encountered this far too often in science.   I'D GIVE MY LEFT ARM, A TESTICLE AND A KIDNEY TO DO RESEARCH IM AMAZED THEY PAY US AT ALL I'D GIVE IT BACK IF THEY'D LET ME!!!

All I could think was "you're the reason they pay us shiat, we get limited benefits, work ridiculous hours, and can't unionize."


What idiots say 'scientists are pretending there's global warming for the money', as if there were a helicopter somewhere dropping money out the window, I can tell the idiot has never had to write a grant proposal in his life.
 
2021-01-27 2:23:02 AM  
It's a bunch of white collar office workers doing credit card work.  so, it would never work in a business that has union employees, or manufacturing jobs, or retail, much less exposure to foreign competition. Could you imagine getting the teamsters union to take a 30% pay cut, you would end up like Jimmy Hoffa.
 
2021-01-27 3:39:17 AM  

Sim Tree: What idiots say 'scientists are pretending there's global warming for the money', as if there were a helicopter somewhere dropping money out the window, I can tell the idiot has never had to write a grant proposal in his life.


I'm still only a postdoc, but when the hiring prof for this position said "We actually don't want you to write too many grant proposals, we'd like you to focus primarily on the project" I was PSYCHED.

(That said, I did still write one grant proposal that my PI dubbed "a very clever and novel idea", so we'll what the Academy of Finland thinks!)
 
2021-01-27 4:04:20 AM  
"That's more than I spend on my pool boys"
 
2021-01-27 4:49:21 AM  

caljar: Could you imagine getting the teamsters union to take a 30% pay cut


Honestly, if they were working with a company that acted in good faith, i really do. Unfortunately that isn't really the history of labor relations in our country.

I mean some of the auto unions have been quite lenient with car companies when they are struggling. Of course then the auto companies try to use the leniency to lower the baseline expectations.
 
2021-01-27 4:51:41 AM  

Felgraf: I'm still only a postdoc, but when the hiring prof for this position said "We actually don't want you to write too many grant proposals, we'd like you to focus primarily on the project" I was PSYCHED.


Yeah, I have long-running work that doesn't need proposals to keep me busy, but I don't think my work thinks I could write too many research proposals.
 
2021-01-27 5:07:53 PM  

OptimisticCynicism: born_yesterday: Nadie_AZ: And people get mad at the mere suggestion of socialism. This is a much better way to run a company. There are no reasons why medium and large companies can't be run this way. Except sheer greed on the part of the few and the lackeys who defend their greedy leaders for pathetic reasons.

Encountered this far too often in science.   I'D GIVE MY LEFT ARM, A TESTICLE AND A KIDNEY TO DO RESEARCH IM AMAZED THEY PAY US AT ALL I'D GIVE IT BACK IF THEY'D LET ME!!!

All I could think was "you're the reason they pay us shiat, we get limited benefits, work ridiculous hours, and can't unionize."

What field in science? Some are paid crap but others half decent.


Molecular biology.  I place the blame on myself for getting into the field.  Back in the mid 90s, it looked like the most promising and stable career path for a biology BS.

What I did not have an appreciation for was how overcrowded the labor market would become, while at the same time how quickly once valuable skills would be available in a kit that any high school kid could follow.  I knew for certain it was a mistake when I started being turned down for positions because I had a PhD instead of a master's, and because I had "a few years of experience".  I'm overqualified and "have too much experience" to be a technician or staff scientist or postdoc and "don't have enough experience" to run a lab.

It's also a system in which the visa program is used to address a lack of available American talent, which is an outright lie.  It is instead used to manipulate desperate foreign students and use them to lower wages.  There's a myth that foreign postdocs are smarter and work harder than Americans.  I think you'd be amazed at the abuse you'd accept and the hours you would work if your boss could fire you and have you on a plane back home in two weeks at will.  And while we're on it, if a foreign national is talented enough work in or to run a lab in the U.S., how can they not be talented enough to apply for and compete for Federal funding?  I guess they're just talented enough to compete with other postdocs or something, right?

Molecular biology and its funding also lend itself to whatever the new hotness is.  As you said, some people can make money, and if you have the skills in the latest thing, you can be one of them.  At one time, being able to run DNA sequencing gels was a living, then it was working with small molecule drug candidates, then it was immunology, then it was next generation PCR, now it's experience with CRISPR.  Job announcements tend to be very specific.  That's fair from a business perspective, but in that case, universities better start leveling with their graduate students about the reality of the job market and the skills they are being taught, rather then feeding them a line of shiat about running their own lab one day.  If the job market is such that only specific skills are marketable, then graduate schools have an obligation to train their students on them, and prepare them for this market, rather than use them as cheap labor. I spent fifteen years learning how to do whatever technique I had to, or finding someone that could, to solve scientific problems, but that adaptability, independent initiative and project management experience is all but ignored by HR departments.  That's frustrating as well.

I think I'll stop there before I go off on a rant LOL.

/I should have been true to myself, and gone into zoology
 
2021-01-27 5:21:40 PM  

Felgraf: Sim Tree: What idiots say 'scientists are pretending there's global warming for the money', as if there were a helicopter somewhere dropping money out the window, I can tell the idiot has never had to write a grant proposal in his life.

I'm still only a postdoc, but when the hiring prof for this position said "We actually don't want you to write too many grant proposals, we'd like you to focus primarily on the project" I was PSYCHED.

(That said, I did still write one grant proposal that my PI dubbed "a very clever and novel idea", so we'll what the Academy of Finland thinks!)


My recommendation would be to write as many as you are comfortable with that they will allow.  My experience is that success early in your career can effectively snowball, in that showing that you can win grants and follow through with data (and publications) will make you more likely to win more grants later in the future.

One mistake I made with my career was working as in postdoc in the intramural program at the NIH.  That's the internally funded program.  At a critical time in my career, I was not permitted to apply for grants, which meant that I had no track record of applying for and delivering on grant proposals.

Also, go to as many conferences as you can and network like it was a freaky deaky sex club.  Knowing people, helping people when you can, getting a good reputation, is critical to getting the jobs.

If you know all this, I don't mean to sound like I'm talking down to you, just honest advice based on my experience.

/Might be different in the EU
 
2021-01-27 8:02:42 PM  

born_yesterday: Molecular biology. I place the blame on myself for getting into the field. Back in the mid 90s, it looked like the most promising and stable career path for a biology BS.

What I did not have an appreciation for was how overcrowded the labor market would become, while at the same time how quickly once valuable skills


Bio and the crowded labor market were EXACTLY what I was thinking of in terms of underpaid science.

As for being considered overqualified as a PHD, that actually can be a problem in Computer Science as well. Depending on the subfield you can run into Master's programmers that make more because they could get more interviews than the PHDs. The big exception is things like AI where the qualified PHDs pretty much have a license to print money.
 
2021-01-27 8:05:19 PM  

born_yesterday: /Might be different in the EU


I'm not in the EU, but i interact pretty regularly with a few that are. Afaik it is the same song and dance for them.

(I mostly interact with Engineers but it is with those working at a conceptual level so there's a decent chunk of research)
 
2021-01-27 8:24:09 PM  

OptimisticCynicism: born_yesterday: /Might be different in the EU

I'm not in the EU, but i interact pretty regularly with a few that are. Afaik it is the same song and dance for them.

(I mostly interact with Engineers but it is with those working at a conceptual level so there's a decent chunk of research)


Thanks for the insights.

Funny story.  I had an interview to be a postdoc at an academic lab in Munich.  Met everyone, gave my presentation on my graduate work.  Had a great conversation about the work with one of the other postdocs there.  I will never forget the final exchange I had with the PI.

Him: "OK, so if I hire an EU citizen, the government will reimburse me their salary in its entirety.  If I hire you, they will not, and I will have to pay your salary out of my funds.  Can you tell me why I should I hire you?"

Me: "You shouldn't.  There is no way I can justify hiring an employee you have to pay for versus one that comes for free.  Barring a candidate that is at the absolute top of their field, the only rational decision in this situation is to wait for a candidate you are satisfied with that you can hire for free and train them.  Thank you for your time."

To this day, I cannot figure out why he brought me in for an interview.  I think he worked with my PI at one time and was trying to be polite.

Also, don't mix work trips with vacation trips.  I couldn't relax until after the interview.  Then I was annoyed.  Then I had a liter of beer in my hand and a pretzel, and that's about the last thing I can remember.
 
2021-01-27 9:43:13 PM  

born_yesterday: To this day, I cannot figure out why he brought me in for an interview. I think he worked with my PI at one time and was trying to be polite.

Also, don't mix work trips with vacation trips. I couldn't relax until after the interview. Then I was annoyed. Then I had a liter of beer in my hand and a pretzel, and that's about the last thing I can remember.


That's a pretty weird one, but I could definitely see it being a case of him trying to show courtesy to your PI. Granted it also would have been courteous to be upfront about the situation and say they'd be happy to interview you but likely didn't have flexibility to hire.

I can never seem to do much vacation stuff on business travel. I'm either doing my job, exhausted as hell relaxing or socializing with people that I currently/might collaborate with.

Unfortunately, that included the time I had a hotel with a 5 minute walk to a major Californian tourism pier. I chilled like an hour on the pier, but didn't have time otherwise(Though sunset dinner at the nice restaurant on the pier was a great way to eat reimbursed during a social event).

I did want to add one more comment to Bio undergrads that might be reading, though admittedly you have a ton of experience compared to me and it isn't my field. Feel free to contradict me, if you think its wrong.

Bio ungrad students/graduates: There are plenty of good paying jobs for people that have the capacity to use the scientific method and the related skillset you probably learned. If you think you can revolutionize the field, by all means keep focused on Biology. If you can find a job that treats you well that is in Biology, take it or at the very least consider it seriously. If you can only find dead-end jobs that treat you like crap, don't waste your time. If there are way more candidates than decent positions, then that is society telling you that it doesn't value work in the area. Odds are you aren't going to be given the resources you need to really make an impact and it will take a toll on you personally. You might need to spend a bit of time increasing the breadth of your knowledge, but there are plenty of disciplines that have a labor shortage looking for your core skillset and many are likely doing things you find worthwhile.
 
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