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(Guardian)   Everyone moves to the cities; animals move into the villages   (theguardian.com) divider line
    More: Strange, Demography, Population, Overpopulation, Population Bomb, women's empowerment advances, fertility rates, peak of population growth, Sightings of Asian black bears  
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3175 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jan 2021 at 5:38 PM (11 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-01-24 5:52:38 PM  
We were on a Zoom call with friends last night in which we both talked about foxes moving into our very urban neighborhoods. One of them said that they had coyote issues. In town.
 
2021-01-24 5:54:48 PM  
"To bring a child into this world should be considered an act of cruelty." - Dr. Stanley Goodspeed
 
2021-01-24 5:57:08 PM  

yakmans_dad: We were on a Zoom call with friends last night in which we both talked about foxes moving into our very urban neighborhoods. One of them said that they had coyote issues. In town.


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2021-01-24 6:01:06 PM  
Taking it back brohs.
 
2021-01-24 6:02:44 PM  
I think I'd rather have the problem of too much available real estate than too little.
 
2021-01-24 6:11:39 PM  

yakmans_dad: We were on a Zoom call with friends last night in which we both talked about foxes moving into our very urban neighborhoods. One of them said that they had coyote issues. In town.


We've got both.  I think in the immediate term it is a COVID thing (fewer people going out = animals are less scared to come in close).

It makes sense.  The top predator in an urban environment is the car (I saw an interesting show where urban raccoons set their ranges based on busy streets).  Fewer apex predators (cars) means the 2ndary guys like coyotes and foxes will move in.
 
2021-01-24 6:15:48 PM  

Shaggy_C: I think I'd rather have the problem of too much available real estate than too little.


Ditto.

Things like the abandoned rural homes in Japan and villages in Italy puzzle me.  Maybe if I understood their geography it might make more sense, but isn't that land useful for farming?  Is rice and soybean farming just so much more efficient in places like the US that they're happy to just import the bulk of their food?  When little country towns in the American plains turn ghost, most of their land gets turned over to agriculture - not abandoned.

Maybe transportation is a problem contributing to the urbanization of the population.  I can understand the attraction of the cities with "everything" available there (except agriculture), but I think a lot more people would choose to live closer to rural if they could get in and out of the city quickly and conveniently.  Not a 1 hour each way commute by car to a 3 hour train commute with 47 stops before yours.
 
2021-01-24 6:20:41 PM  
Most of the precepts of modern civilization were established in Greece, ca.700 bce to 400 bce. Cities had about 20K inhabitants.
Honestly, in this post-industrial, high-robotic era, we could maintain a very advanced civilization on about a population of 10-12 million, globally. Of course, you peons aren't supposed to know about this.
 
2021-01-24 6:24:41 PM  

tasteme: "To bring a child into this world should be considered an act of cruelty." - Dr. Stanley Goodspeed


"I'm pregnant" - his girlfriend
 
2021-01-24 6:30:26 PM  

Tom Marvolo Bombadil: yakmans_dad: We were on a Zoom call with friends last night in which we both talked about foxes moving into our very urban neighborhoods. One of them said that they had coyote issues. In town.

[Fark user image 626x451]


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2021-01-24 6:33:02 PM  

yakmans_dad: We were on a Zoom call with friends last night in which we both talked about foxes moving into our very urban neighborhoods. One of them said that they had coyote issues. In town.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-01-24 6:43:14 PM  

SansNeural: Shaggy_C: I think I'd rather have the problem of too much available real estate than too little.

Ditto.

Things like the abandoned rural homes in Japan and villages in Italy puzzle me.  Maybe if I understood their geography it might make more sense, but isn't that land useful for farming?  Is rice and soybean farming just so much more efficient in places like the US that they're happy to just import the bulk of their food?  When little country towns in the American plains turn ghost, most of their land gets turned over to agriculture - not abandoned.

Most

of the abandoned property don't come with big chunks of farmable land, since that would have been easy to sell; it's the small postage stamp sized cottages that haven't been maintained since 1950 and need fifty thousand dollars plus of repairs on a leaking roof, leaking water pipes, broken central heating, pest infestation, etc. to make them barely livable.  In many cases, the old occupants died of old age and their kids moved far away decades prior and have zero interest in taking it over.  It's a lot of money to invest to live in a small town in the middle of nowhere with zero jobs and few facilities, where the only thing it has going for it that it's in the middle of nowhere. Sure, some people are into that, but it's a vanishingly small group of buyers that is looking.
There's a reason why the younger generation these places leaves as soon as they are old enough to look for work, and there is little incentive for outsiders to move in.

You too could rent a crappy trailer with a few acres in the middle of nowhere in Arkansas for a fraction of what you're paying in rent for your current place -- but I seriously doubt you'd be entertaining the thought to do so. The same goes for everyone else.

Maybe transportation is a problem contributing to the urbanization of the population.  I can understand the attraction of the cities with "everything" available there (except agriculture), but I think a lot more people would choose to live closer to rural if they could get in and out of the city quickly and conveniently.  Not a 1 hour each way commute by car to a 3 hour train commute with 47 stops before yours.

It all boils down to the old real estate maxim: location, location, location.
 
2021-01-24 6:44:11 PM  
The Fixx - Less Cities, More Moving People
Youtube xTzMeDiv-7U
 
2021-01-24 6:44:33 PM  
The villages?  Well, it is Florida's friendliest hometown.
 
2021-01-24 6:48:39 PM  
My wild backyard is getting wilder. The kamoshika and wild boars have come through, digging up and eating all the jerusalem artichokes and wild potatoes. The kamoshika also eat all the dock. The boars eat everything, even the moles. The tanuki came through after that. We have mountain pigeons and woodpeckers working the forests. The monkeys and foxes will probably move through the area in spring. Snakes, frogs, newts. Crows, hawks, eagles, and murder hornets, which count as birds. Swans and cranes and herons. We have got it all.

And yes, it has gotten worse since the farmers have started shutting down their farms just a little bit west. The animals move into those areas, breed, and then move to bigger forests closer to the city. Large tracts get prepared for suburban developments, which then forces the animals into already populated areas to escape the bulldozers.

I had tried to use thorny branches as a barrier just to deter them, but it is not working. I will be putting up a four foot high fence this spring to see how well it works. I will use tall posts to go to six feet if it doesn't.
 
2021-01-24 6:48:52 PM  
I live inside the perimeter of Atlanta.  We have foxes, coyotes, and deer on the regular.  I've heard a bobcat call, which is unmistakable if you've heard one before.  I found what I think is black bear fur on a pine tree beyond my fence just last week.  First time.

Animals are just moving in regardless.
 
2021-01-24 6:51:10 PM  
I don't know, I know a few animals who are city folk

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2021-01-24 7:00:04 PM  

SansNeural: Shaggy_C: I think I'd rather have the problem of too much available real estate than too little.

Ditto.

Things like the abandoned rural homes in Japan and villages in Italy puzzle me.  Maybe if I understood their geography it might make more sense, but isn't that land useful for farming?  Is rice and soybean farming just so much more efficient in places like the US that they're happy to just import the bulk of their food?  When little country towns in the American plains turn ghost, most of their land gets turned over to agriculture - not abandoned.

Maybe transportation is a problem contributing to the urbanization of the population.  I can understand the attraction of the cities with "everything" available there (except agriculture), but I think a lot more people would choose to live closer to rural if they could get in and out of the city quickly and conveniently.  Not a 1 hour each way commute by car to a 3 hour train commute with 47 stops before yours.


Both Japan and italy are considerably smaller than the US, and neither country is rich with farmland, this was actually a major problem for the romans and why they prized controlling certain provinces so much. Italy in particular is pretty rocky and uneven. We are so lucky in the US with how much farmable land and natural resources we have. Japan imports like 90% of its energy resources for instance. I'd imagine in long lived-in countries like japan or italy, if the land is good for farming, that's exactly what's being done with it already.
 
2021-01-24 7:01:39 PM  
You can blame this guy:
Fark user imageView Full Size

Norman Borloug's Green Revolution meant people didn't have to have 10 kids to insure a couple would survive to carry on the family line and take care of them in age.  So the billion plus he saved, and made prosperous, started to carry out their own uncoerced birth control.
 
2021-01-24 7:04:44 PM  

tasteme: "To bring a child into this world should be considered an act of cruelty." - Dr. Stanley Goodspeed


Feel free to give up your social security and Medicare if you feel that way.  My kids will be paying for it.
Or go ahead and attack families.  Clearly kids have ruined everything.
/Rolls eyes
 
2021-01-24 7:12:26 PM  

SansNeural: When little country towns in the American plains turn ghost, most of their land gets turned over to agriculture - not abandoned.


Depends upon where you are at. In the Midwest, you are mostly correct.

Here in the Intermountain west, many of our old ghost towns were old mining towns not on very good places to farm (and much of it public to start with).  Many of these old towns basically would slowly die with the old refusing to move and all the young leaving town for the city.  At least until COVID hit.  That seemed to reverse things a bit.
 
2021-01-24 7:17:02 PM  
Demographers have been talking about this for more than thirty years. The general population just wasn't listening. Sadly, neither were governments outside of maybe China.
 
2021-01-24 7:18:25 PM  

anuran: Demographers have been talking about this for more than thirty years. The general population just wasn't listening. Sadly, neither were governments outside of maybe China.


China had to dial back
Under Mao their population doubled
And that's with 80 million deaths from famine
 
2021-01-24 7:20:33 PM  

2fardownthread: My wild backyard is getting wilder. The kamoshika and wild boars have come through, digging up and eating all the jerusalem artichokes and wild potatoes. The kamoshika also eat all the dock. The boars eat everything, even the moles. The tanuki came through after that. We have mountain pigeons and woodpeckers working the forests. The monkeys and foxes will probably move through the area in spring. Snakes, frogs, newts. Crows, hawks, eagles, and murder hornets, which count as birds. Swans and cranes and herons. We have got it all.

And yes, it has gotten worse since the farmers have started shutting down their farms just a little bit west. The animals move into those areas, breed, and then move to bigger forests closer to the city. Large tracts get prepared for suburban developments, which then forces the animals into already populated areas to escape the bulldozers.

I had tried to use thorny branches as a barrier just to deter them, but it is not working. I will be putting up a four foot high fence this spring to see how well it works. I will use tall posts to go to six feet if it doesn't.


You made the mistake of removing the wolves.  Try to get some imported.
 
2021-01-24 7:20:42 PM  

SansNeural: Shaggy_C: I think I'd rather have the problem of too much available real estate than too little.

Ditto.

Things like the abandoned rural homes in Japan and villages in Italy puzzle me.  Maybe if I understood their geography it might make more sense, but isn't that land useful for farming?  Is rice and soybean farming just so much more efficient in places like the US that they're happy to just import the bulk of their food?  When little country towns in the American plains turn ghost, most of their land gets turned over to agriculture - not abandoned.

Maybe transportation is a problem contributing to the urbanization of the population.  I can understand the attraction of the cities with "everything" available there (except agriculture), but I think a lot more people would choose to live closer to rural if they could get in and out of the city quickly and conveniently.  Not a 1 hour each way commute by car to a 3 hour train commute with 47 stops before yours.


You got one answer upthread. Here is another one.

After WWII and many wars the US fought, the answer to fascism was seen as breaking up large landholdings (land reform), which were concentrating wealth and leading to various social ills. Maybe some of those ills are becoming obvious in the US these days, but that is their digression.

Greater democracy was had by all and there was much rejoicing. Unfortunately, those small landholdings limited the application of ECONOMIES OF SCALE, which are especially important for agriculture. So you wound up with a lot of family farms being run on a thin margin that became more or less guaranteed by government programs. Nobody pays attention to trade agreements, but huge problems arise because the US has huge farms (it was never invaded by the US) that operated with high productivity and low costs. Germany, Italy, and Japan, not so much.

And now, all those older farmers are giving up the ghost just a little before or after they give up their farms. The untended orchards feed wildlife. The untended fields go fallow. The farmland is STILL regulated, so a person can not just buy it and turn it into condos. It must be used for agriculture. The neighboring farm might be for sale, but it might be a mile or two away through the forest, and it might already be under attack by wild animals.

"Location" is an issue, but that is not to say that this is rural Mississippi. Yesterday, I went skiing with a group of high school students from 10 am to 10 pm. My lift ticket was 15 bucks. When it was over, I drove 20 minutes to the city and dropped off the skiers and went home. WiFi and phone were no problem. The view was as good as that from Red Rocks outside of Denver. Along the way,  I passed probably 10 farms that could be bought. They might sell for 2 million dollars or more if they were outside of Seattle or Denver. Here, they are 100--200k ish. I suppose you could commute all the way to Tokyo by bullet train, in 2.5 hours?

So yeah, location, but in many ways, the infrastructure is better than in Seattle or Denver. Buses and trains run on time. Internet is cheaper and faster and more reliable. Electricity and water are no issues. Bullet trains. Universal health care, etc. No homeless. If you disagree, that is fine. I am in no rush for Japan to be gentrified by a bunch of people who think they know better.

What will happen eventually is that the land will find its highest and best use. Farms will be combined to provide an efficient size that will support families. Already, fallow lands are being used for solar panels, which can be removed if the need for food production becomes high enough. The wild animal problem will be solved within a year of changing hunting and conservation laws.
 
2021-01-24 7:22:33 PM  

SwiftFox: 2fardownthread: My wild backyard is getting wilder. The kamoshika and wild boars have come through, digging up and eating all the jerusalem artichokes and wild potatoes. The kamoshika also eat all the dock. The boars eat everything, even the moles. The tanuki came through after that. We have mountain pigeons and woodpeckers working the forests. The monkeys and foxes will probably move through the area in spring. Snakes, frogs, newts. Crows, hawks, eagles, and murder hornets, which count as birds. Swans and cranes and herons. We have got it all.

And yes, it has gotten worse since the farmers have started shutting down their farms just a little bit west. The animals move into those areas, breed, and then move to bigger forests closer to the city. Large tracts get prepared for suburban developments, which then forces the animals into already populated areas to escape the bulldozers.

I had tried to use thorny branches as a barrier just to deter them, but it is not working. I will be putting up a four foot high fence this spring to see how well it works. I will use tall posts to go to six feet if it doesn't.

You made the mistake of removing the wolves.  Try to get some imported.


Well. That was not my mistake. I think you do not understand the problem. Go look up Kamoshika in Wikipedia or something and get back to me.

If you know what bears are, and that Japan still has a lot of bears, that might help too.
 
2021-01-24 7:24:09 PM  

Northern: tasteme: "To bring a child into this world should be considered an act of cruelty." - Dr. Stanley Goodspeed

Feel free to give up your social security and Medicare if you feel that way.  My kids will be paying for it.
Or go ahead and attack families.  Clearly kids have ruined everything.
/Rolls eyes


The underlying question is how many kids are needed to maintain civilization as we know it.

Technologies of various kinds have been taking down quite a few occupations that used to employ large numbers of people for thousands of years.  The invention of the yoke probably displaced a sizeable fraction of the farming population in the places that domesticated draft animals.  The internal combustion engine and electrification displaced both humans *and* draft animal power...to extant that Clydesdale horses are kept around just for beer commercials and as pets.   Sh*t, horses as a species are effectively pets now.

Your kids will be not only your replacements, but also mine.  Hopefully they and their classmates are being prepped to replace the functions their parents *and* some of their parents' friends hold in the world.  I'm more than willing to pay more in taxes so the schools up their game.  Because if the kids after us aren't more capable than we are, it will suck when there are fewer competent people to do the work that needs doing.
 
2021-01-24 7:26:23 PM  

buntz: I don't know, I know a few animals who are city folk

[Fark user image image 200x238]


Don't forget:
'Jellicle Songs for Jellicle Cats' | Cats The Musical
Youtube Zfi9rBDW3s8
 
2021-01-24 7:31:18 PM  
We'll have cats as long as we have mice.  It's just a matter of how many are "domestic."
 
2021-01-24 7:33:14 PM  
Eternal population growth is just not possible. The world and it's resources are finite. Far better to drop the population back and find alternative ways to keep the economy going, than to keep pushing population growth until the resources run out.

Of course it's probably too late already, given climate change is happening now. We should probably have stabilised the population half a century ago.
 
2021-01-24 7:34:45 PM  

2fardownthread: Go look up Kamoshika in Wikipedia or something and get back to me.

If you know what bears are, and that Japan still has a lot of bears, that might help too.


Those things are nifty.  They look like pronghorns that got a fuzzy makeover.

The problems with bears as your apex "predator" is that they are omnivores, and likely aren't that effective chasing down a group of kamoshika.  But you're right, let humans go meat shopping for kamoshika, and overpopulation will be a distant memory.

Unless kamoshika don't taste good.
 
2021-01-24 7:38:55 PM  

anuran: Demographers have been talking about this for more than thirty years. The general population just wasn't listening. Sadly, neither were governments outside of maybe China.


Wow. That is a crazy generalization. I know for a fact that Japan has been putting the term KOREIKASHAKAI, or AGED SOCIETY in its elementary school textbooks for 40 years. There has been active policy for at least 30. It is simply a big change. There are snowy cold, isolated areas that have demographics like the grayer parts of Florida. But it is not a crisis. Everyone has watched it happen. It is a transition.

Don't let the fact that the Guardian is reporting this issue fool you into thinking that this is "news." I totally get that the mission of media is to get the clicks, but outrage is something that the US and the UK can apply inwardly. Governments in other parts of the world are addressing their problems with policy measures. Some work well. Others not so much.

Mainly, efforts are geared to making sure that people in these "islands" have proper utilities and medical care and that they are living the life they want to live. Nobody is getting kicked around or having things confiscated. If the value of their property drops to a level that encourages people to buy in to the community, that will happen.

China will have its own problems, and soon. It has "no" social security system. You can quibble over what that word NO means, but let's just say that China probably has a stickier situation and might be looking to Japan for some hints on what to do. And please let's not fool ourselves. Every society will have to face this problem eventually, unless we start our Logan's Run Carousel programs. People are living longer. Well, in most countries they are.
 
2021-01-24 7:42:23 PM  

2fardownthread: What will happen eventually is that the land will find its highest and best use. Farms will be combined to provide an efficient size that will support families. Already, fallow lands are being used for solar panels, which can be removed if the need for food production becomes high enough. The wild animal problem will be solved within a year of changing hunting and conservation laws.


That is better than what we do in Australia, which is cover the what little fertile land we have with housing, which cannot be removed should there become a need for food production, or dig it up to mine what lies beneath. Once that land is gone it's not coming back.
 
2021-01-24 7:48:07 PM  

2fardownthread: Well. That was not my mistake. I think you do not understand the problem. Go look up Kamoshika in Wikipedia or something and get back to me.

If you know what bears are, and that Japan still has a lot of bears, that might help too.


I knew what kamoshika were (my spell checker does not), those deer/goat/sheep things. If you still have bears then you still have potential wolf habitat.
 
2021-01-24 7:49:14 PM  

Cornelis de Gyselaer: anuran: Demographers have been talking about this for more than thirty years. The general population just wasn't listening. Sadly, neither were governments outside of maybe China.

China had to dial back
Under Mao their population doubled
And that's with 80 million deaths from famine


It was brutal And bloodthirsty in the finest Chinese tradition. It was also another time when China recognized a trend and did something about it in advance. They cut the high-growth-low-death part short and went to low-growth-low-death remarkably quickly. I wish we had a model of long-term thinking combined with basic humanity.
 
2021-01-24 7:59:10 PM  

anuran: Cornelis de Gyselaer: anuran: Demographers have been talking about this for more than thirty years. The general population just wasn't listening. Sadly, neither were governments outside of maybe China.

China had to dial back
Under Mao their population doubled
And that's with 80 million deaths from famine

It was brutal And bloodthirsty in the finest Chinese tradition. It was also another time when China recognized a trend and did something about it in advance. They cut the high-growth-low-death part short and went to low-growth-low-death remarkably quickly. I wish we had a model of long-term thinking combined with basic humanity.


We aren't a monocultural dictatorship
That makes it hard
And yes China is (enforced) han monocultural
 
2021-01-24 7:59:15 PM  

Cornelis de Gyselaer: anuran: Demographers have been talking about this for more than thirty years. The general population just wasn't listening. Sadly, neither were governments outside of maybe China.

China had to dial back
Under Mao their population doubled
And that's with 80 million deaths from famine


Mao aside, and there is some very interesting history there that gets lost in the "China bad. Endless hordes of Asia" rhetoric, the demographic transition has been understood in the field for quite a while. So has environmental degradation of various sorts.

As a species we are farking pathetic at even talking about the contingencies for anything further out than next year if that. Global warming was theory in the 29th century. In the 50s scientists like Teller were saying "Head it off now while it will be relatively cheap and easy." By the 70s we knew the score. They set off 50 years of the most concentrated evil in the history of mankind preventing us from doing anything. Now the only question is "How apocalyptic will it be?" multiply by aquifer destruction, mineral depletion, the degradation of all the Vavilovian centers, the sixth mass extinction, and so on.

We not only don't do what we need to, we actively fight tooth and nail against recognizing that there is a problem.
 
2021-01-24 8:00:14 PM  

Cornelis de Gyselaer: anuran: Cornelis de Gyselaer: anuran: Demographers have been talking about this for more than thirty years. The general population just wasn't listening. Sadly, neither were governments outside of maybe China.

China had to dial back
Under Mao their population doubled
And that's with 80 million deaths from famine

It was brutal And bloodthirsty in the finest Chinese tradition. It was also another time when China recognized a trend and did something about it in advance. They cut the high-growth-low-death part short and went to low-growth-low-death remarkably quickly. I wish we had a model of long-term thinking combined with basic humanity.

We aren't a monocultural dictatorship
That makes it hard
And yes China is (enforced) han monocultural


"We have to be stupid of because we have Blacks." fark that racist lie up the ass.
 
2021-01-24 8:05:11 PM  

anuran: Cornelis de Gyselaer: anuran: Cornelis de Gyselaer: anuran: Demographers have been talking about this for more than thirty years. The general population just wasn't listening. Sadly, neither were governments outside of maybe China.

China had to dial back
Under Mao their population doubled
And that's with 80 million deaths from famine

It was brutal And bloodthirsty in the finest Chinese tradition. It was also another time when China recognized a trend and did something about it in advance. They cut the high-growth-low-death part short and went to low-growth-low-death remarkably quickly. I wish we had a model of long-term thinking combined with basic humanity.

We aren't a monocultural dictatorship
That makes it hard
And yes China is (enforced) han monocultural

"We have to be stupid of because we have Blacks." fark that racist lie up the ass.


There are black people in China, too. And lots of non Han Chinese. That doesn't make China less of a monocultural dictatorship.
 
2021-01-24 8:07:49 PM  

anuran: Cornelis de Gyselaer: anuran: Cornelis de Gyselaer: anuran: Demographers have been talking about this for more than thirty years. The general population just wasn't listening. Sadly, neither were governments outside of maybe China.

China had to dial back
Under Mao their population doubled
And that's with 80 million deaths from famine

It was brutal And bloodthirsty in the finest Chinese tradition. It was also another time when China recognized a trend and did something about it in advance. They cut the high-growth-low-death part short and went to low-growth-low-death remarkably quickly. I wish we had a model of long-term thinking combined with basic humanity.

We aren't a monocultural dictatorship
That makes it hard
And yes China is (enforced) han monocultural

"We have to be stupid of because we have Blacks." fark that racist lie up the ass.


You did see the enforcement part right?
Ask the uighurs about how much of a melting pot China is regarding cultural differences

And its not just the soviets either this winds through most of their history

See also great Russian nationalism and Stalinist purges
 
2021-01-24 8:09:41 PM  

Bonzo_1116: 2fardownthread: Go look up Kamoshika in Wikipedia or something and get back to me.

If you know what bears are, and that Japan still has a lot of bears, that might help too.

Those things are nifty.  They look like pronghorns that got a fuzzy makeover.

The problems with bears as your apex "predator" is that they are omnivores, and likely aren't that effective chasing down a group of kamoshika.  But you're right, let humans go meat shopping for kamoshika, and overpopulation will be a distant memory.

Unless kamoshika don't taste good.


No. They are actually kind of creepy. I used to see a lot of pronghorn in the area of what is now Centennial Airport in Denver. What is now Arapahoe Road used to be wide open, with herds of graceful, dancing Pronghorn Antelope. The Kamoshika are a serow, which is a slowly moving goat/deer like animal, but Japan had a lot of elk too.

I know there were wolves, but my guess is that they could not leave the people alone, whereas the bears retreated. The wolves were also wiping out endangered species. ... Such as the Kamoshika, which are protected now. They come through my garden and eat my ground crops and move on to eat my green beans, and there is not a damn thing I can do about it. I have watched them for hours. And the next year, they bring their kids.

I used to follow the science more, but yes, the wolves were taken out as apex predators. Bears were probably not allowed to fill the gap because they were threatening humans too. Bears are still regularly hunted when they "threaten" humans. The Kamoshika and some other animals became "endangered," so hunting was prohibited, and now we have more deer, serows, wild boar, tanuki, and foxes than humans can deal with.

Which leads us both to the same conclusion. Some apex predator has been removed and not replaced. Maybe wolves, but probably some bears, and certainly humans.

Deer "infestations" get so bad in the area near the ONAGAWA nuclear plant about 200 miles north of Fukushima that bowhunting of them is done professionally on a semi-annual basis. The boars are way out of hand, and bears probably will not touch them. There is not enough of a hunter culture to control these animals, it seems to me.

Down near Fukushima it is REALLY the wild west. Boars and wild pigs are often reported, but there must be feral dogs and cats everywhere. Monkeys. I would not camp there without a gun. It is not a place for weekend campers or through-hikers. Modern humans are not necessarily apex predators. They are just part of the menu.
 
2021-01-24 8:17:02 PM  
Guess the tax deduction is no longer a good enough reason to have crotch fruit.
 
2021-01-24 8:23:06 PM  

Northern: tasteme: "To bring a child into this world should be considered an act of cruelty." - Dr. Stanley Goodspeed

Feel free to give up your social security and Medicare if you feel that way.  My kids will be paying for it.
Or go ahead and attack families.  Clearly kids have ruined everything.
/Rolls eyes


Sorry. I thought nothing was obscure on fark, but apparently Dr. Stanley Goodspeed and his pregnant girlfriend are. He says the line before she says she is pregnant. Then his whole view on children changes from bleak to warm. 😀
 
2021-01-24 8:29:32 PM  

SwiftFox: 2fardownthread: Well. That was not my mistake. I think you do not understand the problem. Go look up Kamoshika in Wikipedia or something and get back to me.

If you know what bears are, and that Japan still has a lot of bears, that might help too.

I knew what kamoshika were (my spell checker does not), those deer/goat/sheep things. If you still have bears then you still have potential wolf habitat.


OK. Well, the kamoshika have been protected, along with other species, to the point that I am not even allowed to bother them. Wolves would have killed them all by now. So I am guessing that Japan at some point decided that wolves were incompatible with humans and got rid of them, OR they decided that wolves were not compatible with three or four other species that were fast enough to get away from bears, but not from wolves. You and I have accepted the huge numbers of such animals as some proof that wolves "should" have a place in the Japan ecology.

So I guess wolves could be reintroduced. For different reasons, I might even like that. I don't think humans in general would want that, though, and it does seem to make some things less manageable.

Hunting the bears and taking their habitats is what bothers me. Whatever one thinks about wolves, bears do not "pack up" and seem to be able to keep things in balance without being too much of a problem for most humans. They chew the odd elderly mushroom hunter or child, but they are not going to leave grandma's bones scattered over a football sized area. Maybe that is just a bias. Japan should leave the bears or it will eventually have to bring back the wolves or import hunters from America's rural south.
 
2021-01-24 8:35:52 PM  

2fardownthread: SwiftFox: 2fardownthread: Well. That was not my mistake. I think you do not understand the problem. Go look up Kamoshika in Wikipedia or something and get back to me.

If you know what bears are, and that Japan still has a lot of bears, that might help too.

I knew what kamoshika were (my spell checker does not), those deer/goat/sheep things. If you still have bears then you still have potential wolf habitat.

OK. Well, the kamoshika have been protected, along with other species, to the point that I am not even allowed to bother them. Wolves would have killed them all by now. So I am guessing that Japan at some point decided that wolves were incompatible with humans and got rid of them, OR they decided that wolves were not compatible with three or four other species that were fast enough to get away from bears, but not from wolves. You and I have accepted the huge numbers of such animals as some proof that wolves "should" have a place in the Japan ecology.

So I guess wolves could be reintroduced. For different reasons, I might even like that. I don't think humans in general would want that, though, and it does seem to make some things less manageable.

Hunting the bears and taking their habitats is what bothers me. Whatever one thinks about wolves, bears do not "pack up" and seem to be able to keep things in balance without being too much of a problem for most humans. They chew the odd elderly mushroom hunter or child, but they are not going to leave grandma's bones scattered over a football sized area. Maybe that is just a bias. Japan should leave the bears or it will eventually have to bring back the wolves or import hunters from America's rural south.


Note how close they are to an Akita

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel​i​an_Bear_Dog
 
2021-01-24 8:38:14 PM  

stuffy: Guess the tax deduction is no longer a good enough reason to have crotch fruit.


Tax deduction? Are you kidding? If your income qualifies, you get 1000 bucks per month, per kid, until they are, I think, 16. If your income does not qualify, you get ZIP. Add in universal health care, and it is a pretty good deal.

The policy is "blessed be the fruit of they crotch" apparently.

Balanced against that are the high costs in Japan. You know, houses cost 100,000 dollars outside of the big cities. Ski lift tickets cost 15 dollars. A meal at McDonalds can cost 6 dollars or more. If you want a train trip for an entire day on a local train, it can cost 20 dollars. Public schools are good, and free, up through junior high. They are good and almost free thereafter. A trip to the dentist might cost you 20 dollars. It all adds up.
 
2021-01-24 8:40:44 PM  

SwiftFox: You can blame this guy:
[Fark user image image 800x532]
Norman Borloug's Green Revolution meant people didn't have to have 10 kids to insure a couple would survive to carry on the family line and take care of them in age.  So the billion plus he saved, and made prosperous, started to carry out their own uncoerced birth control.


That's a terrible picture. 
upload.wikimedia.orgView Full Size
 
2021-01-24 8:55:35 PM  

Cornelis de Gyselaer: 2fardownthread: SwiftFox: 2fardownthread: Well. That was not my mistake. I think you do not understand the problem. Go look up Kamoshika in Wikipedia or something and get back to me.

If you know what bears are, and that Japan still has a lot of bears, that might help too.

I knew what kamoshika were (my spell checker does not), those deer/goat/sheep things. If you still have bears then you still have potential wolf habitat.

OK. Well, the kamoshika have been protected, along with other species, to the point that I am not even allowed to bother them. Wolves would have killed them all by now. So I am guessing that Japan at some point decided that wolves were incompatible with humans and got rid of them, OR they decided that wolves were not compatible with three or four other species that were fast enough to get away from bears, but not from wolves. You and I have accepted the huge numbers of such animals as some proof that wolves "should" have a place in the Japan ecology.

So I guess wolves could be reintroduced. For different reasons, I might even like that. I don't think humans in general would want that, though, and it does seem to make some things less manageable.

Hunting the bears and taking their habitats is what bothers me. Whatever one thinks about wolves, bears do not "pack up" and seem to be able to keep things in balance without being too much of a problem for most humans. They chew the odd elderly mushroom hunter or child, but they are not going to leave grandma's bones scattered over a football sized area. Maybe that is just a bias. Japan should leave the bears or it will eventually have to bring back the wolves or import hunters from America's rural south.

Note how close they are to an Akita

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareli​an_Bear_Dog


I get it. I see. I did not want to get into the topic of feral dogs and cats. I think I have never seen a feral dog in Japan. I can think of reasons why that might be. But feral cats.... come and go.... At some level out there in the jungle, there is a war going on, and I do not know what is winning. Just below the Kamoshika/Bear/deer level at the apex is the level of tanuki/fox/cat/small dog/boar/crow/eagle warfare.

I don't want to get too gross, but there is a lot of carnage to the point that i see waves of animals dominate the forests around my house. I have seen eagles fly past with kittens in their talons, remains of various animals during forest walks, and numerous abandoned caves and thickets. It is a tough life. It keeps the vermin level way way down. No rats, mice, or cockroaches that I can find.

A wolf pack or a pack of feral dogs would roll over that battle zone and take no prisoners. Nobody has ever researched this, I bet, but it might be where the practice of eating dogs in some cultures originated from. Second tier predators have been encouraged or tolerated, but dogs have been either domesticated, or they have been eaten.
 
2021-01-24 9:03:46 PM  

2fardownthread: Cornelis de Gyselaer: 2fardownthread: SwiftFox: 2fardownthread: Well. That was not my mistake. I think you do not understand the problem. Go look up Kamoshika in Wikipedia or something and get back to me.

If you know what bears are, and that Japan still has a lot of bears, that might help too.

I knew what kamoshika were (my spell checker does not), those deer/goat/sheep things. If you still have bears then you still have potential wolf habitat.

OK. Well, the kamoshika have been protected, along with other species, to the point that I am not even allowed to bother them. Wolves would have killed them all by now. So I am guessing that Japan at some point decided that wolves were incompatible with humans and got rid of them, OR they decided that wolves were not compatible with three or four other species that were fast enough to get away from bears, but not from wolves. You and I have accepted the huge numbers of such animals as some proof that wolves "should" have a place in the Japan ecology.

So I guess wolves could be reintroduced. For different reasons, I might even like that. I don't think humans in general would want that, though, and it does seem to make some things less manageable.

Hunting the bears and taking their habitats is what bothers me. Whatever one thinks about wolves, bears do not "pack up" and seem to be able to keep things in balance without being too much of a problem for most humans. They chew the odd elderly mushroom hunter or child, but they are not going to leave grandma's bones scattered over a football sized area. Maybe that is just a bias. Japan should leave the bears or it will eventually have to bring back the wolves or import hunters from America's rural south.

Note how close they are to an Akita

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareli​an_Bear_Dog

I get it. I see. I did not want to get into the topic of feral dogs and cats. I think I have never seen a feral dog in Japan. I can think of reasons why that might be. But feral cats.... come and go.... At some level out there in the jungle, there is a war going on, and I do not know what is winning. Just below the Kamoshika/Bear/deer level at the apex is the level of tanuki/fox/cat/small dog/boar/crow/eagle warfare.

I don't want to get too gross, but there is a lot of carnage to the point that i see waves of animals dominate the forests around my house. I have seen eagles fly past with kittens in their talons, remains of various animals during forest walks, and numerous abandoned caves and thickets. It is a tough life. It keeps the vermin level way way down. No rats, mice, or cockroaches that I can find.

A wolf pack or a pack of feral dogs would roll over that battle zone and take no prisoners. Nobody has ever researched this, I bet, but it might be where the practice of eating dogs in some cultures originated from. Second tier predators have been encouraged or tolerated, but dogs have been either domesticated, or they have been eaten.


I wasn't even thinking feral
A perimeter of trained Akita would keep the bears contained or have roving squads patrol

Karelians are not house pets they're close to feral even trained
Akita are capable of being house pets and guardians

Like a Pyrenees or an Anatolian shepherd
 
2021-01-24 9:06:13 PM  

2fardownthread: stuffy: Guess the tax deduction is no longer a good enough reason to have crotch fruit.

Tax deduction? Are you kidding? If your income qualifies, you get 1000 bucks per month, per kid, until they are, I think, 16. If your income does not qualify, you get ZIP. Add in universal health care, and it is a pretty good deal.

The policy is "blessed be the fruit of they crotch" apparently.

Balanced against that are the high costs in Japan. You know, houses cost 100,000 dollars outside of the big cities. Ski lift tickets cost 15 dollars. A meal at McDonalds can cost 6 dollars or more. If you want a train trip for an entire day on a local train, it can cost 20 dollars. Public schools are good, and free, up through junior high. They are good and almost free thereafter. A trip to the dentist might cost you 20 dollars. It all adds up.



I'll covert AUD to USD for the benefit of readers. In Australia a meal at Maccas: a big mac alone is $4.96 USD, the small meal $8.21 USD.

Houses in Australia, you could maybe get a run-down dump somewhere you would not want to live for $200,000 USD. Nothing in the vicinity of Sydney is under a million.

But $20 for the dentist? That is ludicrously, mind-blowingly, we-could-only-dream-of-such-fees level of cheap. I think the last time I went for a check-up and *clean* it was about $130 USD. But while the dentist might cost and arm and a leg I will at least get medical care in a hospital without going bankrupt.
 
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