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(The Atlantic)   Forget the same old historical examples invoked for the U.S. today. The best example might be France in the aftermath of the Dreyfus affair   (theatlantic.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, French Third Republic, Alfred Dreyfus, Dreyfus affair, Antisemitism, Ferdinand Walsin Esterhazy, World War I, Franco-Prussian War, mile Zola  
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1757 clicks; posted to Politics » on 21 Jan 2021 at 6:09 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



29 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2021-01-21 11:43:37 AM  
Yes, perhaps so. But there will never be an American novelist on par with Proust to narrate it.
 
2021-01-21 12:04:09 PM  
Ah yes...the Dreyfus affair....

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2021-01-21 12:15:16 PM  
On a more serious note: "Ever since the events of January 6, the line among certain Democrats has been that there can be "no healing without accountability." But this is naive. There can be no accountability for those who engage in surreality, the dark province in which the world is apparently run by a cabal of prominent pedophiles and where Trump somehow retained the White House in a landslide. As long as the president's supporters insult the notion of objective truth, coddled by conspiracy theories and social-media networks that simulate a sense of community, there will be no common ground to seek, no "America" to reclaim. Perhaps there never was a unified "America," but once upon a time there was a mutual reality. Until there is again, things will continue to deteriorate. If the Dreyfus affair and France's Third Republic have any echo today, it is that we have not yet seen the worst."

Thanks, subby. The article (especially this paragraph) is, like other Atlantic articles, an clear-eyed analysis of what lies ahead. Also, article seems to be strongly suggestung (without explicit going so far) that the Trumpers and QAnoners need to be cut out of the body politic like the cancer they are. The arrest and subsequent imprisonment of the Capital attackers is in the right direction.

But then what? What's to stop them from reorganizing and reemerging 4, 10, 20 years down the road? The trumpers politics of resentment and commitment to surreality seem incurable.
 
2021-01-21 2:09:14 PM  
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2021-01-21 6:13:58 PM  
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2021-01-21 6:14:41 PM  
We are polarized over the issue of whether What About Bob? is a good movie.
 
2021-01-21 6:15:45 PM  
Came to make a Richard or Julia-Louise joke but got beat to both.
 
2021-01-21 6:15:53 PM  
You mean the time anti-semitism blinded the French to the real culprit, a borderline-blue-blooded officer of some means who became a spy because he squandered his fortune?

Nah, no parallels to the previous administration at all.
 
2021-01-21 6:16:23 PM  
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Oh come on I really think they made a mountain out of a molehill.
 
2021-01-21 6:17:16 PM  
If you want to get an impression of the Dreyfus Affair and the historical context, I recommend to you Robert Harris' fictional book An Officer and a Spy. Fantastic read!
 
2021-01-21 6:17:19 PM  
I love the phrasing of "the _____ Affair" when referring to political scandals.  "The Lewinsky Affair" (heh), "the Flynn Affair", "the Michael Cohen Affair".  Sounds much more classy than the inexecrable "_____gate" formulation.

And dossier.  We need more Affairs and Dossiers.
 
2021-01-21 6:17:25 PM  
Au revoir, Shoshana
 
2021-01-21 6:19:15 PM  
This was no boating accident.
 
2021-01-21 6:20:54 PM  
thumbs.gfycat.comView Full Size
 
2021-01-21 6:21:09 PM  

Brokenseas: I love the phrasing of "the _____ Affair" when referring to political scandals.  "The Lewinsky Affair" (heh), "the Flynn Affair", "the Michael Cohen Affair".  Sounds much more classy than the inexecrable "_____gate" formulation.

And dossier.  We need more Affairs and Dossiers.


The Watergate Affair.

Works, surprisingly.
 
2021-01-21 6:23:19 PM  

Brokenseas: I love the phrasing of "the _____ Affair" when referring to political scandals.  "The Lewinsky Affair" (heh), "the Flynn Affair", "the Michael Cohen Affair".  Sounds much more classy than the inexecrable "_____gate" formulation.

And dossier.  We need more Affairs and Dossiers.


And we should have more politicians named "Profumo".  That seems to really class a scandal up.
 
2021-01-21 6:35:45 PM  
That happened over one hundred years ago. It would be easy to excuse the prejudice because people didn't know better. But in today's modern US there are millions of people openly supportive of white supremacy. There are people willing to fight for the ability to discriminate against others. It's clear to me that this has nothing to do with ignorance or politicians manipulating people. It's because a large number of people are farked in the head. People in the past were farked in the head, people now are farked in the head, and just as many people in the future will be farked in the head. Until such a day as we can control peoples' thoughts we will live in a farked up world.
 
2021-01-21 6:38:35 PM  

Skleenar: Brokenseas: I love the phrasing of "the _____ Affair" when referring to political scandals.  "The Lewinsky Affair" (heh), "the Flynn Affair", "the Michael Cohen Affair".  Sounds much more classy than the inexecrable "_____gate" formulation.

And dossier.  We need more Affairs and Dossiers.

The Watergate Affair.

Works, surprisingly.


The "Watergate Affair"gate?
 
2021-01-21 6:38:55 PM  
Given that Trumpers have actively rejected reality, then they need to be actively rejected from EVERYTHING.  No benefits, no jobs, nothing.  Quarantine these idiots and kick them out from the society they've rejected.  If they want to ignore reality and latch onto any lie that makes them feel good, they get nothing from that reality in return.

IMO, that's going to be the only way to get it through their wilful ignorance that their choice of fantasy over reality has consequences.
 
2021-01-21 7:09:50 PM  
No.

More like the Cultural Revolution in China. A nation divided into a faction of conservative people rending the country over revolutionary principles of the "founding fathers" and failing miserably. Family intrigue, nepotism,  a gang of cronies, bizarre ideology, populism, xenophobia. And all that vs. a bunch of pragmatists who want to get rid of all that and move on  to be modern.

The result was not great, but it wound up with a good part of the population in "re-education camps" to help them see the error of their ways and accept a new reality. Tell me that 70 million Americans will not require "re-education" before all this is really over. You can kind of understand the whole "re-education camp" punishment, actually. Capitalists won't accept Communism? Send em to camp. Trumpers won't accept democracy? Send em to camp.

I am sure you can dig deeper to find more similarities.

The Dreyfus Affair? A Jewish guy made a scapegoat by a bunch of anti-Semites? I fail to see similarities beyond creating division within France. Mar a Lago is not Devil's Island and Trump is not Dreyfus. Neither is Obama.

Why not France after Napoleon? I feel icky for saying it, but Trump and Napoleon were poured out of the same mold. He wanted to make France great again and wound up ruining it and its fledgling institutions.
 
2021-01-21 7:19:17 PM  

sozelle: On a more serious note: "Ever since the events of January 6, the line among certain Democrats has been that there can be "no healing without accountability." But this is naive. There can be no accountability for those who engage in surreality, the dark province in which the world is apparently run by a cabal of prominent pedophiles and where Trump somehow retained the White House in a landslide. As long as the president's supporters insult the notion of objective truth, coddled by conspiracy theories and social-media networks that simulate a sense of community, there will be no common ground to seek, no "America" to reclaim. Perhaps there never was a unified "America," but once upon a time there was a mutual reality. Until there is again, things will continue to deteriorate. If the Dreyfus affair and France's Third Republic have any echo today, it is that we have not yet seen the worst."

Thanks, subby. The article (especially this paragraph) is, like other Atlantic articles, an clear-eyed analysis of what lies ahead. Also, article seems to be strongly suggestung (without explicit going so far) that the Trumpers and QAnoners need to be cut out of the body politic like the cancer they are. The arrest and subsequent imprisonment of the Capital attackers is in the right direction.

But then what? What's to stop them from reorganizing and reemerging 4, 10, 20 years down the road? The trumpers politics of resentment and commitment to surreality seem incurable.


i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2021-01-21 7:37:18 PM  
Cruz, j'accuse!

I work on the french avant-garde, and let me tell you, the Dreyfus affair ended quietly with hardly any controversy or fuss. It was like nothing happened!*

*Except for the fact L'Action Française and other far right groups emerged or were strengthened by those events. And French society was divided between Dreyfusards and anti-Dreyfusards. Oh, and there were violent clashes between left and right factions, e.g. February 1934. Oh, and then those right-wing groups supported the Vichy government after the Nazis overran France. But other than that ...
 
2021-01-21 8:03:40 PM  

Skleenar: Brokenseas: I love the phrasing of "the _____ Affair" when referring to political scandals.  "The Lewinsky Affair" (heh), "the Flynn Affair", "the Michael Cohen Affair".  Sounds much more classy than the inexecrable "_____gate" formulation.

And dossier.  We need more Affairs and Dossiers.

The Watergate Affair.

Works, surprisingly.


The capitol affair

Capitolgate
 
2021-01-21 8:44:44 PM  
New York got us into this mess

they need to pay
 
2021-01-21 8:48:25 PM  
The Dufus Affair
 
2021-01-21 8:58:15 PM  

2fardownthread: No.

More like the Cultural Revolution in China. A nation divided into a faction of conservative people rending the country over revolutionary principles of the "founding fathers" and failing miserably. Family intrigue, nepotism,  a gang of cronies, bizarre ideology, populism, xenophobia. And all that vs. a bunch of pragmatists who want to get rid of all that and move on  to be modern.

The result was not great, but it wound up with a good part of the population in "re-education camps" to help them see the error of their ways and accept a new reality. Tell me that 70 million Americans will not require "re-education" before all this is really over. You can kind of understand the whole "re-education camp" punishment, actually. Capitalists won't accept Communism? Send em to camp. Trumpers won't accept democracy? Send em to camp.

I am sure you can dig deeper to find more similarities.

The Dreyfus Affair? A Jewish guy made a scapegoat by a bunch of anti-Semites? I fail to see similarities beyond creating division within France. Mar a Lago is not Devil's Island and Trump is not Dreyfus. Neither is Obama.

Why not France after Napoleon? I feel icky for saying it, but Trump and Napoleon were poured out of the same mold. He wanted to make France great again and wound up ruining it and its fledgling institutions.


I kinda feel like you didn't read the article.

Plus...post Napoleonic France the government was installed by a coalition of outside powers - I fail to see any similarity.
 
2021-01-21 10:07:30 PM  
And Napoleon was actually good at something besides grift and gaslighting.
 
2021-01-22 1:10:47 AM  

lilbjorn: The Dufus Affair



You made me laugh out loud my friend.  Well done!
 
2021-01-22 4:44:25 AM  
I think Richard Dreyfus is actually a decent of the Dreyfus of French renown. If I remember correctly, he narrated a documentary about him.
 
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