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(MLive.com)   Parents fighting to adopt twin infants. Difficulty: Their OWN biological twin infants   (mlive.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Cancer, Family, Parent, Mother, legal fight, Jordan Myers, Marriage, cancer survivor  
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5314 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Jan 2021 at 2:35 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-01-20 2:26:38 PM  
They tried to enter into a surrogacy contract, but the state legislature has explicitly ruled that kind of thing out.

Maybe hire a real family law attorney to advise you on this, rather than downloading the first form that shows up when you Google "baby contract".

/I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws
//but that's neither here nor there
///triplet slashies
 
2021-01-20 2:40:44 PM  
Jebus the one on the left is the ugliest baby I've ever seen.
 
2021-01-20 2:42:57 PM  

FrancoFile: I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws


There's a Uniform Parentage Act from 2017 that probably addresses this and makes it simpler. The whole "states need to be able to decide what's right for their citizens" is a really bizarre conceit when it comes to boring shiat like this. Federalism's dumb as hell for the most part.
 
2021-01-20 2:44:25 PM  
Thats a bit of a fail to check into pertinent laws before entering into said contract.  While i'll agree the law does need to change they should have been aware of it and would have better offsetting up to have the baby delivered in a near by state that would allow the contract to be enforceable.
 
2021-01-20 2:50:47 PM  
Oof that is just awful! I bet we'll see this argued before the Supremes in the near future.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2021-01-20 2:51:36 PM  
Here's the law: Surrogate Parenting Act.

There was a case in Massachusetts where a couple from New York (where surrogacy contracts are illegal) asked the carrier to have the baby in Massachusetts to take advantage of more liberal laws. The Massachusetts Supreme Court allowed the couple's requests to be listed as parents on the birth certificate.  Maybe Michigan also has a liberal neighbor that should be used as the place of childbirth.
 
2021-01-20 2:51:58 PM  

moothemagiccow: FrancoFile: I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws

There's a Uniform Parentage Act from 2017 that probably addresses this and makes it simpler. The whole "states need to be able to decide what's right for their citizens" is a really bizarre conceit when it comes to boring shiat like this. Federalism's dumb as hell for the most part.


I completely agree.   We should have federal concealed carry valid everywhere in the United States.
 
2021-01-20 2:52:41 PM  

FrancoFile: They tried to enter into a surrogacy contract, but the state legislature has explicitly ruled that kind of thing out.

Maybe hire a real family law attorney to advise you on this, rather than downloading the first form that shows up when you Google "baby contract".

/I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws
//but that's neither here nor there
///triplet slashies


I'm not sure it is a "state" thing.... they state in the article that people have been able to do this outside of Kent county, in the state of Michigan. Of course, it would be Kent county, home to the alt-right crowd in our state.
 
2021-01-20 2:54:46 PM  

mrparks: Jebus the one on the left is the ugliest baby I've ever seen.


All human babies are ugly
 
2021-01-20 2:55:12 PM  
Contracts can't make extremely strong biological urges just disappear.
 
2021-01-20 2:55:53 PM  
Sounds like the key sticking point is that the surrogate mother is married, and the state laws define the husband of a married woman to be the legal father regardless of actual paternity, and parallel state laws prohibit the birth mother from signing away paternal responsibilities - intended to ensure children have a father who is financially responsible for supporting them and to protect them from mothers who would sign away their rights.

But until now nobody has thought to make an exception for surrogate parents.

If the surrogate was single/not married it sounds like the biological father would have an automatic claim to custody, the surrogate mother would seeks no custody, and then the kid goes and lives with bio mom and dad until a relatively straightforward adoption is done to legally make bio mom the legal mom.
 
2021-01-20 2:59:33 PM  
Could have started with adoption and skipped all the drama.
 
2021-01-20 3:02:13 PM  

FrancoFile: They tried to enter into a surrogacy contract, but the state legislature has explicitly ruled that kind of thing out.
Maybe hire a real family law attorney to advise you on this, rather than downloading the first form that shows up when you Google "baby contract".
/I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws
//but that's neither here nor there
///triplet slashies


Maybe don't buy your kids. Maybe don't ask another person to take on the most important thing you will ever do as a parent--make the kid. That shows ownership. That shows that you did the work, even if you're a pussy and have a planned C-section, because you just don't have TIME for all that baby-bearing. Maybe if you don't have time to have a baby, you don't have time to be a parent either, not that that ever entered your calculations. You can AFFORD it.

Maybe if you need a lawyer to have a baby, that's not very smart. Maybe you should get the fark over yourself and either adopt a kid, or live without having a biological one. Maybe just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

You know why all this goes on? MONEY. Lots and lots of money, because this sort of operation is very expensive, and fails a lot. (They don't tell you that.) Nobody is in this because they care so much about infertile parents. They're doing it because it PAYS.
And when your baby is just another thing to be bought or sold, you made a big farking mistake. I don't care how many pretty terms they couch it in.

You buy a couch or a bed. You don't buy your children, snob. They aren't a product of your success, an accessory, or another trophy. If they aren't your life, then you're a bad parent, and buying more things isn't going to make up for that either.
 
2021-01-20 3:02:24 PM  
Sounds like nobody there watched "Friends" in the late 90s.
 
2021-01-20 3:07:11 PM  

victrin: Oof that is just awful! I bet we'll see this argued before the Supremes in the near future.


All 13 of them, or will it be 15 by then?
 
2021-01-20 3:10:50 PM  

cryinoutloud: FrancoFile: They tried to enter into a surrogacy contract, but the state legislature has explicitly ruled that kind of thing out.
Maybe hire a real family law attorney to advise you on this, rather than downloading the first form that shows up when you Google "baby contract".
/I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws
//but that's neither here nor there
///triplet slashies

Maybe don't buy your kids. Maybe don't ask another person to take on the most important thing you will ever do as a parent--make the kid. That shows ownership. That shows that you did the work, even if you're a pussy and have a planned C-section, because you just don't have TIME for all that baby-bearing. Maybe if you don't have time to have a baby, you don't have time to be a parent either, not that that ever entered your calculations. You can AFFORD it.

Maybe if you need a lawyer to have a baby, that's not very smart. Maybe you should get the fark over yourself and either adopt a kid, or live without having a biological one. Maybe just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

You know why all this goes on? MONEY. Lots and lots of money, because this sort of operation is very expensive, and fails a lot. (They don't tell you that.) Nobody is in this because they care so much about infertile parents. They're doing it because it PAYS.
And when your baby is just another thing to be bought or sold, you made a big farking mistake. I don't care how many pretty terms they couch it in.

You buy a couch or a bed. You don't buy your children, snob. They aren't a product of your success, an accessory, or another trophy. If they aren't your life, then you're a bad parent, and buying more things isn't going to make up for that either.


Uh... ??
 
2021-01-20 3:11:03 PM  

cryinoutloud: Maybe don't ask another person to take on the most important thing you will ever do as a parent--make the kid.


what in the fark
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-01-20 3:11:21 PM  

cryinoutloud: FrancoFile: They tried to enter into a surrogacy contract, but the state legislature has explicitly ruled that kind of thing out.
Maybe hire a real family law attorney to advise you on this, rather than downloading the first form that shows up when you Google "baby contract".
/I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws
//but that's neither here nor there
///triplet slashies

Maybe don't buy your kids. Maybe don't ask another person to take on the most important thing you will ever do as a parent--make the kid. That shows ownership. That shows that you did the work, even if you're a pussy and have a planned C-section, because you just don't have TIME for all that baby-bearing. Maybe if you don't have time to have a baby, you don't have time to be a parent either, not that that ever entered your calculations. You can AFFORD it.

Maybe if you need a lawyer to have a baby, that's not very smart. Maybe you should get the fark over yourself and either adopt a kid, or live without having a biological one. Maybe just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

You know why all this goes on? MONEY. Lots and lots of money, because this sort of operation is very expensive, and fails a lot. (They don't tell you that.) Nobody is in this because they care so much about infertile parents. They're doing it because it PAYS.
And when your baby is just another thing to be bought or sold, you made a big farking mistake. I don't care how many pretty terms they couch it in.

You buy a couch or a bed. You don't buy your children, snob. They aren't a product of your success, an accessory, or another trophy. If they aren't your life, then you're a bad parent, and buying more things isn't going to make up for that either.


Fark user imageView Full Size


/Mom saved her eggs before was rendered infertile by chemo, so it wasn't that she "didn't have the time for all that baby-bearing"
//I know, nobody ever RTFA, and you're likely just a PITA troll
///three slashies for ugly-ass newborns - i.e. all of them
 
2021-01-20 3:16:07 PM  
"While fighting for her own life she became a source of inspiration and hope for other women facing similar life struggles by sharing her own story in the public eye on her blog and speaking at countless seminars and events across the state. Now that Tammy is cancer free, Tammy and Jordan are again trying to grow their family ...,"

but alas, Tammy isn't able to bear more children, so she manned up and enjoyed the fact that she still had her life, and one child already.

No honey--let's lawyer up. We deserve it.
 
2021-01-20 3:16:51 PM  

dittybopper: moothemagiccow: FrancoFile: I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws

There's a Uniform Parentage Act from 2017 that probably addresses this and makes it simpler. The whole "states need to be able to decide what's right for their citizens" is a really bizarre conceit when it comes to boring shiat like this. Federalism's dumb as hell for the most part.

I completely agree.   We should have federal concealed carry valid everywhere in the United States.


Nice job proving my point. Urban crime's often fed by neighboring states' non-existent gun laws, despite that city being the driver of the shiatty commuter state's economy.
 
2021-01-20 3:22:47 PM  
I love how nobody here RTFA, making themselves just look like a bunch of idiots. But that's Fark!
 
2021-01-20 3:26:26 PM  
LET.THEM. FIGHT. gif
 
2021-01-20 3:27:34 PM  

cryinoutloud: "While fighting for her own life she became a source of inspiration and hope for other women facing similar life struggles by sharing her own story in the public eye on her blog and speaking at countless seminars and events across the state. Now that Tammy is cancer free, Tammy and Jordan are again trying to grow their family ...,"

but alas, Tammy isn't able to bear more children, so she manned up and enjoyed the fact that she still had her life, and one child already.

No honey--let's lawyer up. We deserve it.


The surrogate mother and her husband aren't even fighting it, they're all on the same side. Michigan's just got a law that's getting in the way.
 
2021-01-20 3:35:53 PM  

dittybopper: moothemagiccow: FrancoFile: I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws

There's a Uniform Parentage Act from 2017 that probably addresses this and makes it simpler. The whole "states need to be able to decide what's right for their citizens" is a really bizarre conceit when it comes to boring shiat like this. Federalism's dumb as hell for the most part.

I completely agree.   We should have a federal ban on concealed carry valid everywhere in the United States.


FIFY
 
2021-01-20 3:37:05 PM  

cryinoutloud: FrancoFile: They tried to enter into a surrogacy contract, but the state legislature has explicitly ruled that kind of thing out.
Maybe hire a real family law attorney to advise you on this, rather than downloading the first form that shows up when you Google "baby contract".
/I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws
//but that's neither here nor there
///triplet slashies

Maybe don't buy your kids. Maybe don't ask another person to take on the most important thing you will ever do as a parent--make the kid. That shows ownership. That shows that you did the work, even if you're a pussy and have a planned C-section, because you just don't have TIME for all that baby-bearing. Maybe if you don't have time to have a baby, you don't have time to be a parent either, not that that ever entered your calculations. You can AFFORD it.

Maybe if you need a lawyer to have a baby, that's not very smart. Maybe you should get the fark over yourself and either adopt a kid, or live without having a biological one. Maybe just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

You know why all this goes on? MONEY. Lots and lots of money, because this sort of operation is very expensive, and fails a lot. (They don't tell you that.) Nobody is in this because they care so much about infertile parents. They're doing it because it PAYS.
And when your baby is just another thing to be bought or sold, you made a big farking mistake. I don't care how many pretty terms they couch it in.

You buy a couch or a bed. You don't buy your children, snob. They aren't a product of your success, an accessory, or another trophy. If they aren't your life, then you're a bad parent, and buying more things isn't going to make up for that either.


Holy shiat, the projection here burns.
 
2021-01-20 3:50:29 PM  
Serves them right for trying to bring a pair of human beings into the world while living in Grand Rapids.  What did the kids ever do to deserve that?
 
2021-01-20 3:54:15 PM  

victrin: Oof that is just awful! I bet we'll see this argued before the Supremes in the near future.


What will the Supremes do?
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-01-20 4:06:30 PM  
Where were the kids going to live once they left the hospital? The surrogate mothers? Was the state going to impound the babies (foster care)?

/I'm thinking this is more vanity then the children.
 
2021-01-20 4:18:00 PM  

dittybopper: moothemagiccow: FrancoFile: I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws

There's a Uniform Parentage Act from 2017 that probably addresses this and makes it simpler. The whole "states need to be able to decide what's right for their citizens" is a really bizarre conceit when it comes to boring shiat like this. Federalism's dumb as hell for the most part.

I completely agree.   We should have federal concealed carry valid everywhere in the United States.


Yeah, or uniform registration of firearm regulations throughout the nation.
 
2021-01-20 4:20:56 PM  

ZAZ: Here's the law: Surrogate Parenting Act.

There was a case in Massachusetts where a couple from New York (where surrogacy contracts are illegal) asked the carrier to have the baby in Massachusetts to take advantage of more liberal laws. The Massachusetts Supreme Court allowed the couple's requests to be listed as parents on the birth certificate.  Maybe Michigan also has a liberal neighbor that should be used as the place of childbirth.


A surrogate state for a surrogate birth?

Too late now for this couple.

This is shiatty and awful and should be changed, but it sounds like the law is clear and they should have planned for this. However, it mentions the babies were born premature so maybe they had other plans but circumstances forced a change.
 
2021-01-20 4:26:18 PM  

dittybopper: moothemagiccow: FrancoFile: I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws

There's a Uniform Parentage Act from 2017 that probably addresses this and makes it simpler. The whole "states need to be able to decide what's right for their citizens" is a really bizarre conceit when it comes to boring shiat like this. Federalism's dumb as hell for the most part.

I completely agree.   We should have federal concealed carry valid everywhere in the United States.


dittybopper     
(favorite: Turns every thread into a gun thread)
 
2021-01-20 4:30:01 PM  

susler: dittybopper: I completely agree.   We should have federal concealed carry valid everywhere in the United States.

Yeah, or uniform registration of firearm regulations throughout the nation.


Frankly, I've always thought these two could get packaged together to get the bill over the 60 vote filibuster threshold.  A nationwide standardized concealed carry law combined with nationwide universal registration of all firearm transfers.
 
2021-01-20 4:30:19 PM  
This is one of those situations where instead of paying a lawyer $600 for a consultation before deciding to do something, they decided to just do it, and instead have to pay a lawyer thousands to try to fix their screw-up. Looks like a competent lawyer would have been able to tell them "what you're doing is illegal in Michigan. Move to Massachusetts and you'll be fine."
 
2021-01-20 4:31:59 PM  

FrancoFile: They tried to enter into a surrogacy contract, but the state legislature has explicitly ruled that kind of thing out.

Maybe hire a real family law attorney to advise you on this, rather than downloading the first form that shows up when you Google "baby contract".

/I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws
//but that's neither here nor there
///triplet slashies


This.

Unless there was a clear statute allowing this kind of contract, or at a minimum, appellate authority, this was a bad idea from the start.  They should have contracted with a surrogate in a state where the law is clear.
 
2021-01-20 4:32:37 PM  

Fara Clark: Where were the kids going to live once they left the hospital? The surrogate mothers? Was the state going to impound the babies (foster care)?

/I'm thinking this is more vanity then the children.


No, it's judges following state law to the letter.  State law says surrogacy contracts are illegal, so they are illegal.  Blame the Michigan legislature, not the judges in the case.  State law also says that the surrogate mother is the legal mother and therefore has custody.
 
2021-01-20 4:45:47 PM  

Fara Clark: Where were the kids going to live once they left the hospital? The surrogate mothers? Was the state going to impound the babies (foster care)?

/I'm thinking this is more vanity then the children.


You do know there are a LOT of implications of legal parentage other than the kids living with them?

Things such as hospital visitation for the family as noted in TFA. Or making any medical decisions. Etc etc.
 
2021-01-20 4:50:06 PM  

cryinoutloud: FrancoFile: They tried to enter into a surrogacy contract, but the state legislature has explicitly ruled that kind of thing out.
Maybe hire a real family law attorney to advise you on this, rather than downloading the first form that shows up when you Google "baby contract".
/I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws
//but that's neither here nor there
///triplet slashies

*shiatstorm of nonsense*


Spoken like a true baby.

/Username checks out
 
2021-01-20 5:00:16 PM  

cryinoutloud: Maybe don't buy your kids. Maybe don't ask another person to take on the most important thing you will ever do as a parent--make the kid. That shows ownership. That shows that you did the work, even if you're a pussy and have a planned C-section, because you just don't have TIME for all that baby-bearing. Maybe if you don't have time to have a baby, you don't have time to be a parent either, not that that ever entered your calculations. You can AFFORD it.


FTA: "Cancer has taken a lot from Tammy and Jordan, including Tammy's ability to carry another child, but they have not let it defeat them," Neckers wrote.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-01-20 5:02:12 PM  

mrparks: Jebus the one on the left is the ugliest baby I've ever seen.


Uglier than the one who lost his job today?
 
2021-01-20 5:20:00 PM  

cryinoutloud: "While fighting for her own life she became a source of inspiration and hope for other women facing similar life struggles by sharing her own story in the public eye on her blog and speaking at countless seminars and events across the state. Now that Tammy is cancer free, Tammy and Jordan are again trying to grow their family ...,"

but alas, Tammy isn't able to bear more children, so she manned up and enjoyed the fact that she still had her life, and one child already.

No honey--let's lawyer up. We deserve it.


tyla.comView Full Size
 
2021-01-20 5:30:16 PM  
I have a friend who is currently pregnant as a surrogate.   Parents are from AZ, surrogate is in WA, She had the procedure in AZ and all the groundwork was done in AZ, Parents employed a lawyer from the start, and the mother is 3 months in when they figure out that because the babies are going to be born in WA where laws are different, the surrogate Mom also has to have a lawyer. Tack on another expense.
We have too many laws, too much unnecessary complication in this country.
 
2021-01-20 5:32:24 PM  

Mr.Hawk: mrparks: Jebus the one on the left is the ugliest baby I've ever seen.

Uglier than the one who lost his job today?


Not a real baby.

But to answer your question...well, you decide.
 
2021-01-20 6:16:57 PM  
I don't see any problem with this. They're complaining that they have to prove that they can provide a healthy environment for children to grow up in? Fark, all parents should.
 
2021-01-20 6:27:26 PM  

dittybopper: moothemagiccow: FrancoFile: I'd argue that the state ought to update their laws

There's a Uniform Parentage Act from 2017 that probably addresses this and makes it simpler. The whole "states need to be able to decide what's right for their citizens" is a really bizarre conceit when it comes to boring shiat like this. Federalism's dumb as hell for the most part.

I completely agree.   We should have federal concealed carry valid everywhere in the United States.


Universal narcotics laws seem like a good idea too.
 
2021-01-20 6:55:57 PM  
Because legislation allowing people to buy and sell other people has never caused any problems, particularly in the US.
 
2021-01-20 7:38:40 PM  
This is legally the same as the situation in New Zealand, where surrogacy for pay is illegal, and the woman who gives birth to the child is the legal mother. To my knowledge, that cannot be contracted away. I know a woman whose sister is acting as her surrogate. The genetic mother will have to adopt her own baby when it's born. In that case, within family, it's just paperwork.
 
2021-01-20 7:47:56 PM  
How is babby own?
 
2021-01-20 8:43:43 PM  
SOP when using a surrogate. You can't just rent another handmaiden's womb without court oversight. Requiring the adoption ensures that at least one judge eyeballs the situation before picking up the "Yep, good to go stamp." The attorneys who put this deal together knew this before the children were conceived. The biological parents (versus the gestational parent) should have been prepared in advance.
 
2021-01-20 9:42:03 PM  

Bruscar: SOP when using a surrogate. You can't just rent another handmaiden's womb without court oversight. Requiring the adoption ensures that at least one judge eyeballs the situation before picking up the "Yep, good to go stamp." The attorneys who put this deal together knew this before the children were conceived. The biological parents (versus the gestational parent) should have been prepared in advance.


Absolutely this should be a bigger deal than going out and buying a ham.

But there should be some mechanism in place to establish surrogacy in advance. I don't know if a judge should be necessary, but established contract standards and I don't think requiring both sides to have independent legal representation is a bad idea.

Why must it be able to be done in advance? This case provides multiple potential scenarios and there are others:

1) So that the surrogate can't just change their mind at the last minute and walk off with the kid. In this case they used irreplaceable embryos to have these kids born, so that could not only mean they have a biological kid out there somewhere but they also may not be able to try again.

2) It ensures the parents have the parental rights the moment the child is born. They can visit and make medical decisions from day one. Something very important for premature or babies with health problems.

3) Not an issue here, but the financial aspect as well. There are established financial responsibilities. The parents can't threaten to not pay for something nor can the surrogate demand extra payment on threat of keeping the kid.

4) The parents. Any back out at the last minute whether arbitrary or if the kid is born with a disability or other issues.
 
2021-01-20 10:11:53 PM  

dywed88: Bruscar: SOP when using a surrogate. You can't just rent another handmaiden's womb without court oversight. Requiring the adoption ensures that at least one judge eyeballs the situation before picking up the "Yep, good to go stamp." The attorneys who put this deal together knew this before the children were conceived. The biological parents (versus the gestational parent) should have been prepared in advance.

Absolutely this should be a bigger deal than going out and buying a ham.

But there should be some mechanism in place to establish surrogacy in advance. I don't know if a judge should be necessary, but established contract standards and I don't think requiring both sides to have independent legal representation is a bad idea.

Why must it be able to be done in advance? This case provides multiple potential scenarios and there are others:

1) So that the surrogate can't just change their mind at the last minute and walk off with the kid. In this case they used irreplaceable embryos to have these kids born, so that could not only mean they have a biological kid out there somewhere but they also may not be able to try again.

2) It ensures the parents have the parental rights the moment the child is born. They can visit and make medical decisions from day one. Something very important for premature or babies with health problems.

3) Not an issue here, but the financial aspect as well. There are established financial responsibilities. The parents can't threaten to not pay for something nor can the surrogate demand extra payment on threat of keeping the kid.

4) The parents. Any back out at the last minute whether arbitrary or if the kid is born with a disability or other issues.


Also so that wealthy people aren't coercing poor women into carrying their children (or into giving up any other child, if genetic parenthood isn't established).
 
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