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(The trash guy)   Who will clean the streets?   (strongtowns.org) divider line
    More: Interesting, Leonardo Bruni, Innovation, Humanism, Creativity, Renaissance humanism, Florence, Citizenship, User innovation  
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666 clicks; posted to STEM » on 19 Jan 2021 at 11:05 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-01-19 10:09:20 AM  
soranews24.comView Full Size
 
2021-01-19 10:41:43 AM  
mememaker.netView Full Size
 
2021-01-19 11:04:14 AM  
Nature will regulate you if the government does not.
 
2021-01-19 11:11:10 AM  
compote.slate.comView Full Size
 
2021-01-19 11:11:11 AM  
Some days I feel that people like the author need to be sent back in time to realize how the streets actually looked and smelled back then.

Because when you have chamber pots and no bathrooms, the first thing you did in the morning was toss the contents out the window into the street, where the horses were just dropping their loads as they walked and garbage would be everywhere
 
2021-01-19 11:18:46 AM  

lifeslammer: Some days I feel that people like the author need to be sent back in time to realize how the streets actually looked and smelled back then.

Because when you have chamber pots and no bathrooms, the first thing you did in the morning was toss the contents out the window into the street, where the horses were just dropping their loads as they walked and garbage would be everywhere


Isn't that exactly what the author is getting at when he's talking about the unsexy maintenance of infrastructure?
 
2021-01-19 11:23:46 AM  
If I recall, all of this work will be done by a single Australian man.
 
2021-01-19 11:26:00 AM  

edmo: lifeslammer: Some days I feel that people like the author need to be sent back in time to realize how the streets actually looked and smelled back then.

Because when you have chamber pots and no bathrooms, the first thing you did in the morning was toss the contents out the window into the street, where the horses were just dropping their loads as they walked and garbage would be everywhere

Isn't that exactly what the author is getting at when he's talking about the unsexy maintenance of infrastructure?


No, its literally what things were like in the days before indoor plumbing. The author is making a point that is based off of their own experiences, instead of even attempting to put the source material in the proper historical context
 
2021-01-19 11:27:06 AM  
The current level of autopilot for cars isn't sufficient for automated driving yet but probably sufficient for drone street sweepers and the like. Use a flying drone in advance to estimate needed capacity, then send out the rolling drone to sweep and meet a collection drone every so often to empty out. Run them early Sunday morning.
 
2021-01-19 11:40:16 AM  

lifeslammer: Some days I feel that people like the author need to be sent back in time to realize how the streets actually looked and smelled back then.

Because when you have chamber pots and no bathrooms, the first thing you did in the morning was toss the contents out the window into the street, where the horses were just dropping their loads as they walked and garbage would be everywhere


What does "things used to be worse" have to do with "we shouldn't ignore stuff like maintenance in favour of the new sexy thing on the market"?

"Things used to be worse" has no bearing on bridges collapsing now because people skipped maintaining them. Or people looking down on sanitation workers.
 
2021-01-19 11:42:24 AM  

DerAppie: Or people looking down on sanitation workers.


only when i'm flinging my chamber pot outta the window.
 
2021-01-19 11:46:47 AM  
I would love for our jobs to be caretaking and repairing. Lately I've been wondering if we can resist the mass extinction by putting bird houses on telephone poles, and insect habitats (like the little houses for solitary bees) on trees in parks. Plant more flowering shirbs, that kind of thing. But they all take care that few people want to pay for.

But in a world of automation, cleaning streets, parks, and tending to polution in gneeral, would require human decisions about what to cut and what to leave alone. I would gladly spend half my year outdoors, cleaning and maintaining; if I got to spend the other 6 months writing my book reviews and grading undergrad papers.
 
2021-01-19 11:55:37 AM  

olapbill: DerAppie: Or people looking down on sanitation workers.

only when i'm flinging my chamber pot outta the window.


Well, obviously. How else are you supposed to aim.
 
2021-01-19 12:02:46 PM  

lifeslammer: edmo: lifeslammer: Some days I feel that people like the author need to be sent back in time to realize how the streets actually looked and smelled back then.

Because when you have chamber pots and no bathrooms, the first thing you did in the morning was toss the contents out the window into the street, where the horses were just dropping their loads as they walked and garbage would be everywhere

Isn't that exactly what the author is getting at when he's talking about the unsexy maintenance of infrastructure?

No, its literally what things were like in the days before indoor plumbing. The author is making a point that is based off of their own experiences, instead of even attempting to put the source material in the proper historical context


Sorry, just not following. The author may be wishing for a golden age that can't return but we did indeed have more efficient cities at one point complete with functional sewers and clean water. We risk going back to the really bad old days just focusing on the next shiny new thing, do we not?
 
2021-01-19 12:22:43 PM  
I like how he initially hits on it with the "maintenance is unsexy" so it never gets funded properly. And then he blames innovation? Complaining that venture funds aren't being used to fix the roads is like me telling you "Why have you not funded your local mass transit?!?"

What is needed is local governments to actually farking govern in a grown up fashion and understand "Not everything we do is sexy, not everything will let us pose with a shovel or a giant pair of scissors. Still needs doing though." We don't need less innovation.
 
2021-01-19 12:44:47 PM  
What is with all these strong towns articles as of late?  Are they paying the server maintenance so Fark stops crashing in exchange for articles?
 
2021-01-19 12:51:53 PM  
Alternate side parking becomes even easier with AI-controlled cars.
 
2021-01-19 1:19:50 PM  
Incentivize it.  Invent yourself out of a job, draw that salary fir the rest of your life.  Make that compounding - more inventions, more passive income and resources to continue the trend.
 
2021-01-19 1:20:27 PM  
I forget which SciFi author proposed that scheme.
 
2021-01-19 2:45:27 PM  
It could be automated, it could be done by people who are compensated at whatever rate it takes to have it done well, or yadda yadda.  Is it a problem to be solved?  Sure.  Is it a disaster?  It is not.  Public sanitation is a bigger cornerstone of urban civilization (even for small towns) than agriculture.  We have a lot of experience with it.


lifeslammer:  Because when you have chamber pots and no bathrooms, the first thing you did in the morning was toss the contents out the window into the street, where the horses were just dropping their loads as they walked and garbage would be everywhere

New York City, circa 1900, had about 2.5 million pounds of horse manure removed from its streets during the year.  Urine just ran off.  About forty horses a day dropped dead in the roads and were abandoned.  Kids used to make 'snowmen' and forts out of dung, and throw it at each other and passers-by.  Barges brought hay into the city constantly, and orphans would go sleep on the barges, in the hay, with the rats.  Garbage was often dumped in the rivers and just offshore, so that the beaches were covered with it.  Thousands of families lived in 'central' apartments that had no windows (because they had no exterior walls), no plumbing, no kitchens.

And there were friggin' telegraph and power lines criss-crossing the city like you would not believe, just insanity.

The Good Old Days were awful.  Never mind the lack of modern medicine, etc.
 
2021-01-19 2:49:14 PM  

Jormungandr: I like how he initially hits on it with the "maintenance is unsexy" so it never gets funded properly. And then he blames innovation? Complaining that venture funds aren't being used to fix the roads is like me telling you "Why have you not funded your local mass transit?!?"

What is needed is local governments to actually farking govern in a grown up fashion and understand "Not everything we do is sexy, not everything will let us pose with a shovel or a giant pair of scissors. Still needs doing though." We don't need less innovation.


I can't quite tell if he's blaming the distraction for being distracting, or just pointing out that we've let ourselves be distracted. He's absolutely right that we're ignoring basic upkeep in favor of "Ooh, shiny..." but that's not the fault of the shiny stuff.
 
2021-01-19 3:29:32 PM  

Noticeably F.A.T.: Jormungandr: I like how he initially hits on it with the "maintenance is unsexy" so it never gets funded properly. And then he blames innovation? Complaining that venture funds aren't being used to fix the roads is like me telling you "Why have you not funded your local mass transit?!?"

What is needed is local governments to actually farking govern in a grown up fashion and understand "Not everything we do is sexy, not everything will let us pose with a shovel or a giant pair of scissors. Still needs doing though." We don't need less innovation.

I can't quite tell if he's blaming the distraction for being distracting, or just pointing out that we've let ourselves be distracted. He's absolutely right that we're ignoring basic upkeep in favor of "Ooh, shiny..." but that's not the fault of the shiny stuff.


No doubt! Though he does say

And the Innovation Delusion exists when massive amounts of venture funds are wasted on dubious proposals like WeWork in the hopes of striking it rich on the Next Big Thing rather than applied to fixing outdated infrastructure whose cost-of-repair increases as that repair is continually deferred.

which to me says he is blaming private money for not shouldering the cost of fixing public infrastructure. So it seems like he is blaming the distractions for being distracting -- to me anyway. I am wondering if between us we've put more time into thinking about the article than the writer spent writing it.
 
2021-01-19 3:39:52 PM  

Jormungandr: Noticeably F.A.T.: Jormungandr: I like how he initially hits on it with the "maintenance is unsexy" so it never gets funded properly. And then he blames innovation? Complaining that venture funds aren't being used to fix the roads is like me telling you "Why have you not funded your local mass transit?!?"

What is needed is local governments to actually farking govern in a grown up fashion and understand "Not everything we do is sexy, not everything will let us pose with a shovel or a giant pair of scissors. Still needs doing though." We don't need less innovation.

I can't quite tell if he's blaming the distraction for being distracting, or just pointing out that we've let ourselves be distracted. He's absolutely right that we're ignoring basic upkeep in favor of "Ooh, shiny..." but that's not the fault of the shiny stuff.

No doubt! Though he does say

And the Innovation Delusion exists when massive amounts of venture funds are wasted on dubious proposals like WeWork in the hopes of striking it rich on the Next Big Thing rather than applied to fixing outdated infrastructure whose cost-of-repair increases as that repair is continually deferred.

which to me says he is blaming private money for not shouldering the cost of fixing public infrastructure. So it seems like he is blaming the distractions for being distracting -- to me anyway. I am wondering if between us we've put more time into thinking about the article than the writer spent writing it.


Or maybe he's saying the money is being poorly spent because it's getting thrown at flashy but dubious schemes rather than tried-and-true-and-boring things?
 
2021-01-19 3:46:45 PM  

Jormungandr: Noticeably F.A.T.: Jormungandr: I like how he initially hits on it with the "maintenance is unsexy" so it never gets funded properly. And then he blames innovation? Complaining that venture funds aren't being used to fix the roads is like me telling you "Why have you not funded your local mass transit?!?"

What is needed is local governments to actually farking govern in a grown up fashion and understand "Not everything we do is sexy, not everything will let us pose with a shovel or a giant pair of scissors. Still needs doing though." We don't need less innovation.

I can't quite tell if he's blaming the distraction for being distracting, or just pointing out that we've let ourselves be distracted. He's absolutely right that we're ignoring basic upkeep in favor of "Ooh, shiny..." but that's not the fault of the shiny stuff.

No doubt! Though he does say

And the Innovation Delusion exists when massive amounts of venture funds are wasted on dubious proposals like WeWork in the hopes of striking it rich on the Next Big Thing rather than applied to fixing outdated infrastructure whose cost-of-repair increases as that repair is continually deferred.

which to me says he is blaming private money for not shouldering the cost of fixing public infrastructure. So it seems like he is blaming the distractions for being distracting -- to me anyway. I am wondering if between us we've put more time into thinking about the article than the writer spent writing it.


So I have been trying to read this websites about us page and quite frankly Scientology has a more coherent "About Us" page.  There is no BLUF on what the fark this philosophy actually is.  The articles I read seem to have a mishmash of various topics.  The comment on WeWork makes no sense.  Infrastructure can't be invested in the same way as a private companies.  They make passing comments trying to tie in critical theory.  Apparently it is a "process".  It reads like a "we can solve all societal woes if we do this".  Ether marketing and PR really sucks or they are selling the latest snake oil.
 
2021-01-19 4:05:52 PM  

American-Irish eyes: Jormungandr: Noticeably F.A.T.: Jormungandr: I like how he initially hits on it with the "maintenance is unsexy" so it never gets funded properly. And then he blames innovation? Complaining that venture funds aren't being used to fix the roads is like me telling you "Why have you not funded your local mass transit?!?"

What is needed is local governments to actually farking govern in a grown up fashion and understand "Not everything we do is sexy, not everything will let us pose with a shovel or a giant pair of scissors. Still needs doing though." We don't need less innovation.

I can't quite tell if he's blaming the distraction for being distracting, or just pointing out that we've let ourselves be distracted. He's absolutely right that we're ignoring basic upkeep in favor of "Ooh, shiny..." but that's not the fault of the shiny stuff.

No doubt! Though he does say

And the Innovation Delusion exists when massive amounts of venture funds are wasted on dubious proposals like WeWork in the hopes of striking it rich on the Next Big Thing rather than applied to fixing outdated infrastructure whose cost-of-repair increases as that repair is continually deferred.

which to me says he is blaming private money for not shouldering the cost of fixing public infrastructure. So it seems like he is blaming the distractions for being distracting -- to me anyway. I am wondering if between us we've put more time into thinking about the article than the writer spent writing it.

So I have been trying to read this websites about us page and quite frankly Scientology has a more coherent "About Us" page.  There is no BLUF on what the fark this philosophy actually is.  The articles I read seem to have a mishmash of various topics.  The comment on WeWork makes no sense.  Infrastructure can't be invested in the same way as a private companies.  They make passing comments trying to tie in critical theory.  Apparently it is a "process".  It reads like a "we can solve all societal woes if we do this".  Ether marketing and PR really sucks or they are selling the latest snake oil.


It's vegan snake oil.
 
2021-01-19 5:43:52 PM  

Jormungandr: I like how he initially hits on it with the "maintenance is unsexy" so it never gets funded properly. And then he blames innovation? Complaining that venture funds aren't being used to fix the roads is like me telling you "Why have you not funded your local mass transit?!?"

What is needed is local governments to actually farking govern in a grown up fashion and understand "Not everything we do is sexy, not everything will let us pose with a shovel or a giant pair of scissors. Still needs doing though." We don't need less innovation.


Yeah this sounds more like an excuse not to improve anything.

That said all the crystal spire future Utopias never seem to account for graffiti or vandals
 
2021-01-19 6:10:28 PM  
Guy has a point.  When I was in Italy a few years ago, I managed to get in a couple day trips to Florence and to Naples.  Florence is a neat and tidy city.  Naples is a dump.  It's amazing how the Italians managed to merge such wildly different civic cultures into a single country.
 
2021-01-19 9:56:13 PM  
It is possible now to live in places without running water and modern sewage disposal. These places are not unbearable. I wouldn't say the cities of the past were horrible because of the chamber pots and so on.
 
2021-01-20 8:15:12 AM  

RandomAxe: It could be automated, it could be done by people who are compensated at whatever rate it takes to have it done well, or yadda yadda.  Is it a problem to be solved?  Sure.  Is it a disaster?  It is not.  Public sanitation is a bigger cornerstone of urban civilization (even for small towns) than agriculture.  We have a lot of experience with it.


The point isn't literally which person or which machine does the job. It is a matter of making sure the job gets done because at this point that is insufficiently the case.

"We have a lot of experience with it" isn't really relevant if we do not sufficiently do the thing we have a lot of experience with. We have a lot of experience with bridges, yet stuff still collapses because no one is maintaining them.
 
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