Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(YouTube)   Well, to be fair, 5th Ed is pretty close   (youtube.com) divider line
    More: Amusing  
•       •       •

1081 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 18 Jan 2021 at 5:02 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



60 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2021-01-18 5:22:30 PM  
Rogues, remember - that bucket on the head trick doesn't work in 5th - you don't want to get confused there.
 
2021-01-18 5:28:37 PM  
You know, I never did play Skyrim.  Probably because I've never owned a pc I didn't reinstall with Linux.

I've really enjoyed 5th edition... it makes it easier to play the way my first group played used to play 2nd and Gurps back in the 90s, even if someone happens to be a rules lawyer.  I've recently been playing with a group with 3.5.... which makes me miss 5th a little.

But I've been considering a gaming pc recently.  Really just trying to decide between a gaming pc or one of the new consoles, once I have some disposable income to spend.  Maybe I should lean towards the option with Skyrim....
 
2021-01-18 5:31:14 PM  
He's no Set Skorkowski, but I was amused. And I recognize players like that.
 
2021-01-18 5:32:17 PM  
4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...


I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.
 
2021-01-18 5:37:02 PM  

wingedkat: You know, I never did play Skyrim.  Probably because I've never owned a pc I didn't reinstall with Linux.

I've really enjoyed 5th edition... it makes it easier to play the way my first group played used to play 2nd and Gurps back in the 90s, even if someone happens to be a rules lawyer.  I've recently been playing with a group with 3.5.... which makes me miss 5th a little.

But I've been considering a gaming pc recently. Really just trying to decide between a gaming pc or one of the new consoles, once I have some disposable income to spend.  Maybe I should lean towards the option with Skyrim....


Get a console. Price to performance console wins. The gap in graphics quality and performance used to be much larger but I have a hard time seeing enough of a difference to justify the extra cost of a PC these days. I still game on PC and will into the future but that is because I never learned to use a controller.
 
2021-01-18 5:42:35 PM  

wingedkat: You know, I never did play Skyrim.


I think most of its entertainment value to me is that all this batsh*t insane stuff happens in a superficially normal-looking medieval-ish world. I do recommend it, it's fun. And fun to watch other people play too.

"Wife, I thought you said you were playing a thief"
"I am, why?"
"So what's up with that giant mace on your back?"
"That's to silence any witnesses."
"Ah."
 
2021-01-18 5:46:42 PM  
Pathfinder 2e is better than 5th ed
 
2021-01-18 5:55:31 PM  

Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.


Yeah...I see what you mean.

But I actually don't like my rpgs to be terribly lethal; I get attached to my characters and having one die is just... annoying, even if someone survives to resurrect me.

Even things like level drain and ability damage annoy the crap out of me.  When I dm I ignore all that stuff, for better or worse.  May not be that annoying if a computer recalculates everything for me though.
 
2021-01-18 5:58:54 PM  

qorkfiend: Pathfinder 2e is better than 5th ed


I like some crunch in my systems (Deadlands Classic > Savage Worlds Deadlands), but having just read through the core book, that's more gravel than Rice Krispies...

I really don't want to feel like I need a graphing calculator to figure out if I hit the orc or not, and I started with the old red box basic D&D before moving into AD&D 2nd Ed and Shadowrun.
 
2021-01-18 6:13:53 PM  
At some point the other three people at the table should just ignore that guy and play the game.
 
2021-01-18 6:18:28 PM  

qorkfiend: Pathfinder 2e is better than 5th ed


Cody Explains It All...

I'm Quitting Pathfinder 2e Because of This Issue
Youtube -fyninGp92g
 
2021-01-18 6:29:31 PM  

Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.


Arcane Trickster here. With Shadowblade (it's an Illusion spell...) and Misty Step in spellbook. MS behind Prime Target, Bonus Action to Hide. Move, Backstab from shadows/dim light/position (either way, roll Attack with Advantage plus Dex bonus for Finesse), dual-wielding with short sword in off-hand, 2d8 psychic damage + Backstab bonus damage + 1d6 off-hand damage, Bonus Action to go back into hiding if possible.

I have ruined my DM's day more than once since hitting 3rd Level.
 
2021-01-18 6:48:32 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: qorkfiend: Pathfinder 2e is better than 5th ed

Cody Explains It All...

[YouTube video: I'm Quitting Pathfinder 2e Because of This Issue]


Well, the group I play with is a bunch of friends from my old Warcraft days, so that makes a lot of sense
 
2021-01-18 7:15:20 PM  
Screw it, let's play Paranoia.
 
2021-01-18 7:47:08 PM  

Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.


Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!
 
2021-01-18 7:47:36 PM  

floor: wingedkat: You know, I never did play Skyrim.  Probably because I've never owned a pc I didn't reinstall with Linux.

I've really enjoyed 5th edition... it makes it easier to play the way my first group played used to play 2nd and Gurps back in the 90s, even if someone happens to be a rules lawyer.  I've recently been playing with a group with 3.5.... which makes me miss 5th a little.

But I've been considering a gaming pc recently. Really just trying to decide between a gaming pc or one of the new consoles, once I have some disposable income to spend.  Maybe I should lean towards the option with Skyrim....

Get a console. Price to performance console wins. The gap in graphics quality and performance used to be much larger but I have a hard time seeing enough of a difference to justify the extra cost of a PC these days. I still game on PC and will into the future but that is because I never learned to use a controller.


I feel compelled to point out what commonly might not be said.
What game genres you play probably ought to inform your console v PC gaming choice most of all.

If you mainly play the overlap genres a console is going to offer you a better value if you use a PC as just a game box really and not do the full PC stuff with it.

But if your genre zones are more RTS and TBS, or explicitly FPS not 3PV. Then the PC is where the games found for those genres, your options will be significantly curtained and purchase value reduced, if you don't get the game selection on it you would on the PC. Don't matter what the cost/pixel push power is, if the game genres you like just isn't there to be had in the first place.
 
2021-01-18 8:00:52 PM  

PvtStash: floor: wingedkat: You know, I never did play Skyrim.  Probably because I've never owned a pc I didn't reinstall with Linux.

I've really enjoyed 5th edition... it makes it easier to play the way my first group played used to play 2nd and Gurps back in the 90s, even if someone happens to be a rules lawyer.  I've recently been playing with a group with 3.5.... which makes me miss 5th a little.

But I've been considering a gaming pc recently. Really just trying to decide between a gaming pc or one of the new consoles, once I have some disposable income to spend.  Maybe I should lean towards the option with Skyrim....

Get a console. Price to performance console wins. The gap in graphics quality and performance used to be much larger but I have a hard time seeing enough of a difference to justify the extra cost of a PC these days. I still game on PC and will into the future but that is because I never learned to use a controller.

I feel compelled to point out what commonly might not be said.
What game genres you play probably ought to inform your console v PC gaming choice most of all.

If you mainly play the overlap genres a console is going to offer you a better value if you use a PC as just a game box really and not do the full PC stuff with it.

But if your genre zones are more RTS and TBS, or explicitly FPS not 3PV. Then the PC is where the games found for those genres, your options will be significantly curtained and purchase value reduced, if you don't get the game selection on it you would on the PC. Don't matter what the cost/pixel push power is, if the game genres you like just isn't there to be had in the first place.


Hmm, thanks that's helpful, and a good point.  I should look into what games are available where, and focus on that.
 
2021-01-18 8:18:02 PM  

PvtStash: floor: wingedkat: You know, I never did play Skyrim.  Probably because I've never owned a pc I didn't reinstall with Linux.

I've really enjoyed 5th edition... it makes it easier to play the way my first group played used to play 2nd and Gurps back in the 90s, even if someone happens to be a rules lawyer.  I've recently been playing with a group with 3.5.... which makes me miss 5th a little.

But I've been considering a gaming pc recently. Really just trying to decide between a gaming pc or one of the new consoles, once I have some disposable income to spend.  Maybe I should lean towards the option with Skyrim....

Get a console. Price to performance console wins. The gap in graphics quality and performance used to be much larger but I have a hard time seeing enough of a difference to justify the extra cost of a PC these days. I still game on PC and will into the future but that is because I never learned to use a controller.

I feel compelled to point out what commonly might not be said.
What game genres you play probably ought to inform your console v PC gaming choice most of all.

If you mainly play the overlap genres a console is going to offer you a better value if you use a PC as just a game box really and not do the full PC stuff with it.

But if your genre zones are more RTS and TBS, or explicitly FPS not 3PV. Then the PC is where the games found for those genres, your options will be significantly curtained and purchase value reduced, if you don't get the game selection on it you would on the PC. Don't matter what the cost/pixel push power is, if the game genres you like just isn't there to be had in the first place.


Good point. I enjoy EU4 but it would never be available on a console.
 
2021-01-18 8:35:56 PM  

PvtStash: floor: wingedkat: You know, I never did play Skyrim.  Probably because I've never owned a pc I didn't reinstall with Linux.

I've really enjoyed 5th edition... it makes it easier to play the way my first group played used to play 2nd and Gurps back in the 90s, even if someone happens to be a rules lawyer.  I've recently been playing with a group with 3.5.... which makes me miss 5th a little.

But I've been considering a gaming pc recently. Really just trying to decide between a gaming pc or one of the new consoles, once I have some disposable income to spend.  Maybe I should lean towards the option with Skyrim....

Get a console. Price to performance console wins. The gap in graphics quality and performance used to be much larger but I have a hard time seeing enough of a difference to justify the extra cost of a PC these days. I still game on PC and will into the future but that is because I never learned to use a controller.

I feel compelled to point out what commonly might not be said.
What game genres you play probably ought to inform your console v PC gaming choice most of all.

If you mainly play the overlap genres a console is going to offer you a better value if you use a PC as just a game box really and not do the full PC stuff with it.

But if your genre zones are more RTS and TBS, or explicitly FPS not 3PV. Then the PC is where the games found for those genres, your options will be significantly curtained and purchase value reduced, if you don't get the game selection on it you would on the PC. Don't matter what the cost/pixel push power is, if the game genres you like just isn't there to be had in the first place.


Also, lots of games on both are ok.
On pc however, some of those ok games ( like skyrim ) become really great if you use mods.

The modding community really makes games like skyrim and the fallout series vastly more entertaining.

If mods aren't your thing, the main choice would be genre.

Fps and flight sim games are much better on pc imo.
Kb and mouse are better than controllers for fps, and joysticks make or break flight sims.
 
2021-01-18 8:56:16 PM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: qorkfiend: Pathfinder 2e is better than 5th ed

Cody Explains It All...

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/-fyninGp​92g]


From what I've seen from his live-plays, he's an good GM on the whole cinematic aspect of the world, but his combats are basically just "stand there and swing at each other".  (Mind you these were 5e live-plays.)

The whole premise of his video is basically wrong:  "My players feel the need to play optimally at all times by doing the same three things over-and-over" and "my party also TPKed".  I guess their "optimal" rotation wasn't very optimal.
 
2021-01-18 9:06:35 PM  

Muzzleloader: Also, lots of games on both are ok.
On pc however, some of those ok games ( like skyrim ) become really great if you use mods.

The modding community really makes games like skyrim and the fallout series vastly more entertaining.

If mods aren't your thing, the main choice would be genre.


Not only that, but you can download the mod kit and make your own entire world if you really wanted to put in the work.
 
2021-01-18 9:14:05 PM  

Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.


I thought we all agreed we would not speak of 4E.
 
2021-01-18 9:19:15 PM  

Erek the Red: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

I thought we all agreed we would not speak of 4E.


We really shouldn't...
 
2021-01-18 9:41:32 PM  
I lolled a few times, but I haven' watched any RPG vids since, well, before Covid, so like a decade ago.
 
2021-01-18 9:42:14 PM  

wingedkat: Erek the Red: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

I thought we all agreed we would not speak of 4E.

We really shouldn't...


I didn't mind 4th all that much.

Of course I also had a GM who who didn't have a slavish devotion to RAW. Most of my problems with 4th were stupidly arbitrary things like "this attack must target a hostile creature".

5th is FAR better overall. I've been having a lot of fun in several 5e campaigns.
 
2021-01-18 9:46:20 PM  
i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2021-01-19 2:52:50 AM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Arcane Trickster here. With Shadowblade (it's an Illusion spell...) and Misty Step in spellbook. MS behind Prime Target, Bonus Action to Hide. Move, Backstab from shadows/dim light/position (either way, roll Attack with Advantage plus Dex bonus for Finesse), dual-wielding with short sword in off-hand, 2d8 psychic damage + Backstab bonus damage + 1d6 off-hand damage, Bonus Action to go back into hiding if possible.

I have ruined my DM's day more than once since hitting 3rd Level.


Sounds like a nice combo, yesterday as a DM I gave a pirate captain a vorpal cutlas and rolled two back to back natural 20s against my party.

Now that was fun, our cleric was working overtime raising the dead. After it was over everybody knew they had faced a worthy opponent.
 
2021-01-19 4:18:26 AM  

SamFlagg: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!


I love 3E/3.5/Pathfinder, mainly because my focus is on character development, so OPTIONS!!!!! But, I agree that 3E+ has/had the same problem as Palladium/RIFTS in that each subsequent splatbook had to outdo the ones before it in terms of 'cool new shiat'. Compounded by the hordes of 3rd Party publishers pumping out a tidal wave of content that was playtested for balance in the sense that 'this Feat/Item/Class was tested in a single encounter/scenario and didn't immediately wipe out the group of 1d4 kobolds that the party faced, so it must be balanced.'
 
2021-01-19 4:23:09 AM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: SamFlagg: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!

I love 3E/3.5/Pathfinder, mainly because my focus is on character development, so OPTIONS!!!!! But, I agree that 3E+ has/had the same problem as Palladium/RIFTS in that each subsequent splatbook had to outdo the ones before it in terms of 'cool new shiat'. Compounded by the hordes of 3rd Party publishers pumping out a tidal wave of content that was playtested for balance in the sense that 'this Feat/Item/Class was tested in a single encounter/scenario and didn't immediately wipe out the group of 1d4 kobolds that the party faced, so it must be balanced.'


Anything that can't immediately wipe out a group of 1d4 kobolds immediately is either bone useless, or the kobolds are in some impossible to reach them scenario the DM concocted to humble your power gaming ass.

/for instance, kobolds can run siege weapons as well as anyone, long as there's a bunch of them
//high level kobold sorcerers are also great fun to ruin someone's weekend with
///but seriously, a normal group?  You can pretty much glare at them and they explode
 
2021-01-19 4:25:55 AM  

SamFlagg: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!


I guess power creep is the wrong word.  Everyone in 5e is a superhero.  WOTC took the idea of heroic fantasy and went all in on it.  I miss the days when you started out as ratcatchers whose adventures could end with a single bad roll.  You had to earn your way to power
 
2021-01-19 4:39:09 AM  

The Loaf: RoyFokker'sGhost: qorkfiend: Pathfinder 2e is better than 5th ed

Cody Explains It All...

[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/-fyninGp​92g]

From what I've seen from his live-plays, he's an good GM on the whole cinematic aspect of the world, but his combats are basically just "stand there and swing at each other".  (Mind you these were 5e live-plays.)

The whole premise of his video is basically wrong:  "My players feel the need to play optimally at all times by doing the same three things over-and-over" and "my party also TPKed".  I guess their "optimal" rotation wasn't very optimal.


I think his point is more to the flaws in the Pathfinder 2E action economy system, but your point is true for just about any RPG; actions, and to some extent characters, are going to be optimized. Especially in game systems that are fully, or even partially in the case of 3E, static character advancement; you hit x Level, you get y/choose from a/b/c. That's the biggest advantage that Development Point based systems like GURPS, Hero, and Mutants & Masterminds has over level-based systems: because the player defines exactly how the character advances/grows stronger, there's far less pressure to take a 'best choice' from a limited list of options as the character develops.

To the point about cycling repeating optimal actions, pretty much the only RPG I've encountered that avoids that well is TORG, due to the unique nature of the game system. Players each have a hand of Drama cards that can be traded among themselves and used to boost actions or create bonus effects like taking a second action or re-rolling the die on an action. Initiative is established using a second deck that determines if the PCs or the opposition go first, special conditions for that round, and also Approved Actions that if a PC does, they get to draw another Drama card and add it to their hand. After the encounter, all players draw up/discard down to their starting hand size. This effectively eliminates the 'lather/rinse/repeat' cycle of combat by forcing the characters to chose between optimal actions and actions that can cycle through the Drama deck and potentially gain the PC better boosts & effects for the Boss fight later.
 
2021-01-19 4:42:20 AM  

Some Junkie Cosmonaut: RoyFokker'sGhost: SamFlagg: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!

I love 3E/3.5/Pathfinder, mainly because my focus is on character development, so OPTIONS!!!!! But, I agree that 3E+ has/had the same problem as Palladium/RIFTS in that each subsequent splatbook had to outdo the ones before it in terms of 'cool new shiat'. Compounded by the hordes of 3rd Party publishers pumping out a tidal wave of content that was playtested for balance in the sense that 'this Feat/Item/Class was tested in a single encounter/scenario and didn't immediately wipe out the group of 1d4 kobolds that the party faced, so it must be balanced.'

Anything that can't immediately wipe out a group of 1d4 kobolds immediately is either bone useless, or the kobolds are in some impossible to reach them scenario the DM concocted to humble your power gaming ass.

/for instance, kobolds can run siege weapons as well as anyone, long as there's a bunch of them
//high level kobold sorcerers are also great fun to ruin someone's weekend with
///but seriously, a normal group?  You can pretty much glare at them and they explode


I mean, hyperbole aside, the point is that in my experience, 3rd Party splatbooks have next to zero playtesting for 'game balance' beyond 'Okay, worked well for this encounter, print it up...'
 
2021-01-19 9:41:57 AM  
My brief experience with 5e is that it feels like none of the options really matter. I didn't really do a deep dive, because I don't like D&D-style RPG in general, but as the person who likes to make the weird builds, I felt that 5e didn't really support that playstyle. Don't let me play a Bugbear if they're basically just a human with long arms. What's the fun of that?
 
2021-01-19 10:34:55 AM  

qorkfiend: Pathfinder 2e is better than 5th ed


It depends on your focus. If you want gritty combat, play Pathfinder. If you want role-playing, play 5e. Both are decent at the other thing, but they really excel in their respective fields.

5e is also ridiculously customizable from the DM's perspective, and the help given to guide you in building new worlds and campaigns in the books is excellent. It's almost on par with GURPS in that regard, but much easier to teach and play.
 
2021-01-19 11:06:33 AM  
Skyrim is the Call of Duty of RPGs
 
2021-01-19 11:19:49 AM  

Muzzleloader: Also, lots of games on both are ok.
On pc however, some of those ok games ( like skyrim ) become really great if you use mods.

The modding community really makes games like skyrim and the fallout series vastly more entertaining.


You can run most of the same mods on Xbox.

Note that Sony doesn't allow mods that add assets, but Microsoft does. So if you want to mod, get an Xbox Series S. Fast loading. Runs the game at 60fps if you load the mod for it, too.

The only mods you won't find on Xbox are the ones that add nudity and SkyUI. Pretty much everything else is there, and the ones with nudity are altered to not be fully nude. SkyUI just wouldn't work very well with a console so there's no point to it (and frankly, I think it's way overrated).

Frankly, it's weird that Bethesda doesn't allow nudity on consoles, seeing as the same consoles play Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk, which are chock full of nudity. But it's their game, so whatever.

Anyway, console versions are more stable when modded, and don't require you to use the separate app (Vortex or NMM), and don't require you to set up FNIS, or install SKSE, or mess with any of the INIs. That's all done by the modders where necessary, and mods that need SKSE are tweaked to simply not need it. They're not as versatile, but they're also less likely to cause a CTD.

Anyone looking to poke their nose into Skyrim would be well-served by getting into it on console. Besides, the game plays better from the couch using a controller. It's not a keyboard-and-mouse sort of game. You can use those, but it feels stupid and unnatural.

I've got Skyrim on several platforms. PC is the best, yes. But consoles are way easier and more convenient.
 
2021-01-19 11:24:13 AM  

Snapper Carr: SamFlagg: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!

I guess power creep is the wrong word.  Everyone in 5e is a superhero.  WOTC took the idea of heroic fantasy and went all in on it.  I miss the days when you started out as ratcatchers whose adventures could end with a single bad roll.  You had to earn your way to power


That was my problem with it as well. 5e is just WoW in paper form.

Honestly, if you want to play D&D, then grab some old 3e/3.5e books and have at it. Avoid anything newly published. The game has such a long, rich history that there's no end to fantastic sourcebooks and adventures if you reach into the past. The old rules are better, anyway. In my opinion, the game was on the path to ruin once WoTC bought them and Hasbro bought them. If it ain't published by TSR it's crap.
 
2021-01-19 11:25:48 AM  

RoyFokker'sGhost: Some Junkie Cosmonaut: RoyFokker'sGhost: SamFlagg: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!

I love 3E/3.5/Pathfinder, mainly because my focus is on character development, so OPTIONS!!!!! But, I agree that 3E+ has/had the same problem as Palladium/RIFTS in that each subsequent splatbook had to outdo the ones before it in terms of 'cool new shiat'. Compounded by the hordes of 3rd Party publishers pumping out a tidal wave of content that was playtested for balance in the sense that 'this Feat/Item/Class was tested in a single encounter/scenario and didn't immediately wipe out the group of 1d4 kobolds that the party faced, so it must be balanced.'

Anything that can't immediately wipe out a group of 1d4 kobolds immediately is either bone useless, or the kobolds are in some impossible to reach them scenario the DM concocted to humble your power gaming ass.

/for instance, kobolds can run siege weapons as well as anyone, long as there's a bunch of them
//high level kobold sorcerers are also great fun to ruin someone's weekend with
///but seriously, a normal group?  You can pretty much glare at them and they explode

I mean, hyperbole aside, the point is that in my experience, 3rd Party splatbooks have next to zero playtesting for 'game balance' beyond 'Okay, worked well for this encounter, print it up...'


If you have enough Kobolds standing within 6 feet of one another and you never roll a critical failure on your attack roll and you have sufficient strength and are wielding say a greataxe, you can break the sound barrier with greater cleave.

Also man, skill checks with a Rogue, 'I need to roll a 2 to unlock any lock created by Gods themselves'

I find that yes to some degree 5th ed eventually has you super heroing, but I find the curve a much more pleasing gradual curve.  Also, I find by making the feats less powerful for the broken ones and more powerful for the useless ones 5th ed makes feats more of a flavor item than the 3rd Ed. 'so you want to use a bow?  Ok well here are your first 3 feats that you need to take on every archer you ever make, or 'oh you're a fighter?  well here is the first 3-4 feats you need to take because obviously you're building to whirlwind attack because why wouldn't you?
 
2021-01-19 11:36:27 AM  

Snapper Carr: I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.


Min/Max is WAY harder in 5e than it was in 3.x, sure you can "optimize" for whatever role you plan on playing. Gonna be a talker? Yeah Tieflings and 1/2 elves are "optimal".

But unless you are breaking the RAW, you aren't starting with an 18 in a stat at level 1 with a Mastercrafted non-magical weapon, bonus starting feat, racial starting feats, or more feats every 3 levels to min/max or more feats because your class gives them to you (looking at you 3.x human fighter).

But the downside to that is that the curves are flattened and you wind up with a lot of cookie cutter characters if you choose to optimize for role.

Now... for more lethality just do what I do... I convert a characters hitpoints into hit boxes. For squishy characters they get 4 hit boxes, for regulars 6, and tanks get 8. Then take their total hit points and divide by the number of hit boxes. That is the average amount of damage they will be taking per turn. You can get to that point however you want (I take the average and subtract by a damage die).

I also do this for monsters as well, but I use a convoluted formula of determining how many actions there are per round total, then determine how many rounds I want the combat to last (the more actions the fewer rounds) then distribute out hitboxes by toughness of the enemy...

It's not a solid formula because I never came up with a solid formula (i'm not exactly a mathmagician).

I'm currently working on a way to impose conditions and roll penalties like they do in Shadowrun for the hitbox method. Though if I do that, I might have to do like they do with SR and make the hit boxes equal to the con score or something, I don't know yet.
 
2021-01-19 12:24:38 PM  

WilderKWight: Snapper Carr: SamFlagg: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!

I guess power creep is the wrong word.  Everyone in 5e is a superhero.  WOTC took the idea of heroic fantasy and went all in on it.  I miss the days when you started out as ratcatchers whose adventures could end with a single bad roll.  You had to earn your way to power

That was my problem with it as well. 5e is just WoW in paper form.

Honestly, if you want to play D&D, then grab some old 3e/3.5e books and have at it. Avoid anything newly published. The game has such a long, rich history that there's no end to fantastic sourcebooks and adventures if you reach into the past. The old rules are better, anyway. In my opinion, the game was on the path to ruin once WoTC bought them and Hasbro bought them. If it ain't published by TSR it's crap.


Know how I know you haven't played 5e in the right way?

I've played every edition minus the original brown books, and if you play 5e as the rules are written, it's incredibly underpowered. Want to load up on magic items? Too bad, you can only attune to 3. Want to load up on feats? Too bad, you can choose between a stat increase or a feat on the 4th levels, and that's CLASS level, so if you multiclass thinking you are gonna mix and match for the best of both worlds, you'll be at minimum level 5 before you get that option, and most likely you'll be level 7 or 8 before your first stat increase or feat choice. Want to increase your stealth skill every level? Too bad, you get your ability bonus and whatever your proficiency bonus is for your class, and if you are lucky enough to have expertise, you get double your proficiency and that's it. And if you are playing as written, most of the time if you don't aren't proficient with the skill you roll with disadvantage when you try.

Older is not better. Wanna know what killed TSR and nearly killed D&D? Vampire the Masquerade. Wanna know why? It offered a simpler, more streamlined storytelling focused system and threw away the convoluted mathematics needed to play D&D. When WoTC bought TSR they NEEDED a way to compete with the more streamlined games that began dominating the 90's. And 3x got them there. When they released 3x, D&D saw the highest player numbers it had up to that point. And 5e is blowing those number out of the water. And it has nothing to do with it being like WoW, because 4e was their attempt at mimicking WoW, going to far as to developing a virtual tabletop software (that never got released because of the mass exodus from the game) that was designed to help keep track of all those WoW like cooldowns and special powers. 5e scrapped all of that.

And 5e was developed alongside the players. It wasn't just written by a couple of guys in a locked room, the D&D Next program bring in anyone who wants to playtest any new rules as long as they agree to actually test and provide feedback, and they take that feedback to come up with a rule that the community essentially came up with or as a compromise that the community can accept... And that model has proven to be the most successful edition to date with hard numbers to prove it. 5e is SO successful, that it's the only edition you will find at your local general merchandise retail stores that carry a toys and games section. So successful that Wal-Mart not only carries D&D products, but has started carrying RPG Dice sets. That Target was the exclusive carrier of the Essentials Kit for 3 months before it was released anywhere else. And Wal-Mart is carrying special D&D die-cast minis.

But if you want to play "real D&D" where you need math equations just to calculate all the variables and combat lasts for 9 hours, then by all means, go back and play 1e, no one's stopping you. Have fun your way, the rest of us will have fun ours. But don't think for a micro second that D&D is going "downhill" when it is in fact doing just the opposite and is more popular now than it ever has in its 40+ year history.
 
2021-01-19 1:32:19 PM  

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: WilderKWight: Snapper Carr: SamFlagg: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!

I guess power creep is the wrong word.  Everyone in 5e is a superhero.  WOTC took the idea of heroic fantasy and went all in on it.  I miss the days when you started out as ratcatchers whose adventures could end with a single bad roll.  You had to earn your way to power

That was my problem with it as well. 5e is just WoW in paper form.

Honestly, if you want to play D&D, then grab some old 3e/3.5e books and have at it. Avoid anything newly published. The game has such a long, rich history that there's no end to fantastic sourcebooks and adventures if you reach into the past. The old rules are better, anyway. In my opinion, the game was on the path to ruin once WoTC bought them and Hasbro bought them. If it ain't published by TSR it's crap.

Know how I know you haven't played 5e in the right way?

I've played every edition minus the original brown books, and if you play 5e as the rules are written, it's incredibly underpowered. Want to load up on magic items? Too bad, you can only attune to 3. Want to load up on feats? Too bad, you can choose between a stat increase or a feat on the 4th levels, and that's CLASS level, so if you multiclass thinking you are gonna mix and match for the best of both worlds, you'll be at minimum level 5 before you get that option, and most likely you'll be level 7 or 8 before your first stat increase or feat choice. Want to increase your stealth skill every level? Too bad, you get your ability bonus and whatever your proficiency bonus is for your class, and if you are lucky enough to have exper ...


Whatever you say Mr. Greenwood.
 
2021-01-19 2:21:51 PM  

luidprand: If you want role-playing, play 5e.


I mean, if I wanted strong, character-driven roleplay, I wouldn't be playing Pathfinder or D&D, any edition.
 
2021-01-19 2:47:35 PM  

t3knomanser: luidprand: If you want role-playing, play 5e.

I mean, if I wanted strong, character-driven roleplay, I wouldn't be playing Pathfinder or D&D, any edition.


I mean, if I wanted strong , character-driven roleplay, if you're in the right group of players and with the right GM any system can work including D&D.

/Alright, maybe even the right players and GM can't make Cyberpunk 2020 or Exalted work, there are limits
 
2021-01-19 3:07:26 PM  

SamFlagg: /Alright, maybe even the right players and GM can't make Cyberpunk 2020 or Exalted work, there are limits


What's funny is that Exalted was White Wolfs answer to Vampire players wanting them to make a D&D game. While I've never cracked open an Exalted rulebook, I had always imagined that it was just the WW dice system with elves and dwarves instead of Vampires and Werewolves, and in a magical tolkein-esque world rather than a fictional modern earth.

And CP2020 and 2074 books are poorly designed. I couldn't get past the layout and design of the books to make heads or tales of the rules, and I used to GM at conventions for Shadowrun... (talk about all mechanics and no role play yeesh)
 
2021-01-19 3:11:12 PM  

SamFlagg: I mean, if I wanted strong , character-driven roleplay, if you're in the right group of players and with the right GM any system can work including D&D


So, this is one of the areas I'm opinionated and probably in a way different from most players, but if your RP actions don't have mechanical weight, then the game doesn't really have RP in it. This comes from the perspective of someone who does a lot of improv theater, which I know sorta tweaks things, but if I just wanted to goof off in character and tell a rip-roaring fun story, I don't need D&D or any RPG system to do that. So if the answer to game systems that don't really enable RP is "right, but you don't need the system for that," my reply is "then what is the system for?"

While Fate has plenty of warts, at least "acting in character" has mechanical effects on the game. Or, in like, FitD systems, while characters remain pretty thin, the narrative is propelled by clocks, which gives you a mechanical way to spool out the narrative and move the story forward.
 
2021-01-19 3:11:55 PM  

Extra Virgin Geek Olive Oil: While I've never cracked open an Exalted rulebook, I had always imagined that it was just the WW dice system with elves and dwarves instead of Vampires and Werewolves


It's more "What if we made a fantasy anime with WW dice rules?"
 
2021-01-19 3:22:01 PM  
I still love Pathfinder 1st edition over Pathfinder 2nd edition or D&D 5e. Personally, my deal is designing monsters and I've found that with the universal monster rules from the Bestiaries, Pathfinder 1e has the most robust monster creation system.
 
2021-01-19 3:32:51 PM  

SamFlagg: Snapper Carr: 4E was World of Warcraft so it's a logical progression.

wingedkat: I've really enjoyed 5th edition...

I have my issues with it (primarily with power creep and min/maxing absurdity) but I do like that it's become somewhat more streamlined and easier to get into.  It needs to be a little more lethal IMO.

Power creep and min/maxing absurdity?  Someone substituted you a copy of 3rd ed by mistake!


Oh man, I remember there was a build in 3rd edition where you could make your character into an octopus like creature with six arms and using magical returning suriken making multiple attacks per arm per round. Basically a humanoid minigun.
 
2021-01-19 3:44:49 PM  

t3knomanser: but if your RP actions don't have mechanical weight, then the game doesn't really have RP in it.


That's where the DM comes in...

So let's look at a scenario played out 2 ways, one involving ROLE play, and one involving ROLL play...

First the ROLE play version:

DM: Your party makes its way up the stone path until you all see a large castle. The path leads straight to the main gate where 2 armed guards are standing there watching you as you approach. "Who goes there?" asks one of the guards, "And state your business" calls out the other.
Lance: "Uh, we are simple travelers making our way to the city of Dunhill and we were told that this path would lead us through the mountains safely to get there"
DM: The guards visibly grow tense, "Who told you this information?" the one on the left says, "No one's supposed to be up here without express permission from the Duke" the one on the right adds in
Lance: Us, Sarah, do you remember who told us?
Sarah: Yes, my character takes a step forward with her hands open to show I mean no harm and say "We are truly sorry sires, we were told by Jasper the innkeeper that this was the safest path, he never mentioned a castle being here. Do you know if we can even get to Dunhill from here or did we get conned by the innkeeper?"
DM: The two guards look at the attractive woman in front of them and relax a bit, "It's true, you can get there easily enough from here, but you need permission first" the one on the left tells you.
Sarah: Are the guards checking me out?
DM: Oh yeah, the one on the right is practically salivating.
Sarah: Ok, I'm going to walk sultrily up to the one on the right and smile, "Do you think you could maaaaybe just ask your lord if he could let me and my friends pass though. In fact, it's awfully late, maybe even give us shelter for the night? If he does, maybe we could see more of each other later?"
DM: The guard on the right practically falls over himself as he tries to talk the other guard into asking for your passage. After about twenty minutes he comes back and says "Your in luck mistress, the Duke is in a good mood and is interested in meeting you."

Now let's look at the ROLL play version:

DM: Your party makes its way up the stone path until you all see a large castle. The path leads straight to the main gate where 2 armed guards are standing there watching you as you approach. "Who goes there?" asks one of the guards, "And state your business" calls out the other.
Lance: I walk up and try to convince them we are simple travelers looking to get to Dunhill
DM: Ok, roll a persuasion check
Lance: Uh... 14
DM: The guards grow tense and tell you that you need permission to even be here.
Sarah: I walk up to the guards, with my hands out to indicated I mean no harm and tell them the innkeeper in town instructed us to go this way because it was a shortcut through the mountains.
DM: Sarah give me a persuasion roll, and roll at advantage
Sarah: Advantage huh? Ok, 16
DM: The guards relax as you talk to them and they confirm that this is a shortcut through the mountains to Dunhill
Sarah: I want to roll a sense motive, I want to figure out why they are being so relaxed with me but not Lance. 15
DM: You can easily tell they are attracted to you and checking you out.
Sarah: Ok, then I want use a seductive manner and ask them if they could obtain permission for us from the duke. OH, and if possible, to let us stay the night as well.
DM: Ok, roll Persuasion again, and again with advantage
Sarah: Nat 20
DM: The guard practically falls all over himself to go get permission. Roll a percentage.
Sarah: Ok, uh, 72
DM: The guard returns and tells you that you are in luck, the Duke is in a good mood and will let you stay the night as long as you dine with him and tell him some stories or news of the land.

Option 3 of course is a mix of both of those...

All of that was using 5e rules...
 
2021-01-19 3:51:57 PM  
Actually... ugh, i do this a lot, swap "sense motive" for "Insight". I still use older terminology... I still catch myself saying Reflex, Will, and Fortitude...
 
Displayed 50 of 60 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking





On Twitter



  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.