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(Some Guy)   This just in: If you don't force sleep-deprived teens to sit in tiny desks in crowded, stifling hot rooms all day, subject them to bullies and psychotic teachers and insane rules, punish creativity and reward mediocrity? For some it makes things better   (psychnewsdaily.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Sociology, Education, Health, Medicine, Mental disorder, School closures, Psychology, Teacher  
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3074 clicks; posted to Main » and STEM » on 18 Jan 2021 at 8:50 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-01-18 8:54:33 AM  
Make them walk up hill both ways?
 
2021-01-18 8:55:44 AM  
You mean... These UK teens skipped their meat an STILL had pudding? This feels wrong.
 
2021-01-18 8:56:25 AM  
Just gonna force the bullies online or worse, house calls.
 
2021-01-18 8:56:48 AM  
Oh, we're for online learning now?
 
2021-01-18 8:59:14 AM  
They will face all those things in corporate life, too.  It's coming for them either way.
 
2021-01-18 8:59:47 AM  
Good, no more schools then. Now get to work!
 
2021-01-18 9:00:00 AM  
Friend of mine teaches HS physics, and I asked him how things were going with online learning. His most interesting comment was that there were some kids who did great in person, but sucked online. And there were some who sucked in person, but were excelling online.
 
2021-01-18 9:05:19 AM  

ssaoi: They will face all those things in corporate life, too.  It's coming for them either way.


Sometimes adults are mean, therefore it's good for children to be treated badly?
 
2021-01-18 9:12:15 AM  

ssaoi: They will face all those things in corporate life, too.  It's coming for them either way.


And they won't have developed any skills on how to deal with it.
 
2021-01-18 9:13:32 AM  
Maybe the first thing teens should learn is to get enough sleep.
 
2021-01-18 9:13:39 AM  
When we grew up and went to school
There were certain teachers who would
Hurt the children any way they could

By pouring their derision
Upon anything we did
And exposing every weakness
However carefully hidden by the kids

/To much dark sarcasm in the classroom
 
2021-01-18 9:17:15 AM  
I will second the result of some failing hard (usually the notsogood students) and some excelling with distance learning.

It boils down to self discipline and/or parents.

/teaches 8-12 at Swedish international school
 
2021-01-18 9:18:04 AM  

drogg: Friend of mine teaches HS physics, and I asked him how things were going with online learning. His most interesting comment was that there were some kids who did great in person, but sucked online. And there were some who sucked in person, but were excelling online.


It's almost as if different people learn differently. Or something.
 
2021-01-18 9:18:34 AM  
Kids are gonna be forced to shoot up their own bedrooms.
 
2021-01-18 9:19:30 AM  

Skwishmitten: I will second the result of some failing hard (usually the notsogood students) and some excelling with distance learning.


My son got a perfect score on the EOG yet hates online learning and has seen his grades drop to the mid 90's this school year, so I'm getting a kick
 
2021-01-18 9:21:00 AM  

Byno: drogg: Friend of mine teaches HS physics, and I asked him how things were going with online learning. His most interesting comment was that there were some kids who did great in person, but sucked online. And there were some who sucked in person, but were excelling online.

It's almost as if different people learn differently. Or something.


Would be nice if the kids who preferred online could continue being mostly online. Though they need some socialization as well.  I know some homeschool kids back in the day that regularly went on fieldtrips with other homeschoolers and was mostly socialized.
 
2021-01-18 9:24:37 AM  
A big reason why is because the school makes it harder than it has to be. IE common core math etc. It shoikdnt take half a sheet of paper to do a math problem that I can do in 10 seconds the way I learned. My grandson that we are raising has struggled in math. Since doing virtual he has a 96 in math. Simply because I showed him how to do fractions division etc the way I learned in the 70s. We recently had a meeting with the teacher. First she hinted that she felt we were doing his work or giving him answers. Then we had her give him some math work which he got correct in front of her. But she was upset and we were told "well he is getting the right answers but not using the correct method. If he does that when we go back to traditional he will fail".......so the way we learned math and did it for 200 yrs in this country isnt good enough. He is supposed to spend ten mins a problem drawing boxes shading them in etc etc. Guess who wont be going back traditional? In a ahithole public school anyway.
 
2021-01-18 9:29:50 AM  

thrillbilly1967: A big reason why is because the school makes it harder than it has to be. IE common core math etc. It shoikdnt take half a sheet of paper to do a math problem that I can do in 10 seconds the way I learned. My grandson that we are raising has struggled in math. Since doing virtual he has a 96 in math. Simply because I showed him how to do fractions division etc the way I learned in the 70s. We recently had a meeting with the teacher. First she hinted that she felt we were doing his work or giving him answers. Then we had her give him some math work which he got correct in front of her. But she was upset and we were told "well he is getting the right answers but not using the correct method. If he does that when we go back to traditional he will fail".......so the way we learned math and did it for 200 yrs in this country isnt good enough. He is supposed to spend ten mins a problem drawing boxes shading them in etc etc. Guess who wont be going back traditional? In a ahithole public school anyway.


I am so relieved my state doesn't do common core. What a waste of time.
 
2021-01-18 9:30:46 AM  

thrillbilly1967: the way I learned in the 70s.


"So if a suitcase full of quaaludes leaves Chicago going 115 mph..."
 
2021-01-18 9:31:54 AM  
Since our daughter teaches teensy inner-city kids and my wife tutors struggling kids, I hope you don't find me over-sensitive and unreasonable to tell a lot of you [incomprehensible invective].

Glad we got that cleared up.
 
2021-01-18 9:32:55 AM  
If you don't force sleep-deprived teens to sit in tiny desks in crowded, stifling hot rooms all day, subject them to bullies and psychotic teachers and insane rules, punish creativity and reward mediocrity?

That question is not a question, it's missing the "What happens...".
 
2021-01-18 9:34:11 AM  
Its better for the student's mental health, but not the parents. School was the one bit of respite they had from being stuck around their kids all day.

Online sucks. Especially for little kids.  Short of standing over my 7 year old goddaughter and physically making her pay attention, she loses interest.  Turns on YouTube or wanders away from class to play.  Stick her in a classroom without the distractions, with a sense of structure, and she learns fine.
 
2021-01-18 9:36:40 AM  

thrillbilly1967: A big reason why is because the school makes it harder than it has to be. IE common core math etc. It shoikdnt take half a sheet of paper to do a math problem that I can do in 10 seconds the way I learned. My grandson that we are raising has struggled in math. Since doing virtual he has a 96 in math. Simply because I showed him how to do fractions division etc the way I learned in the 70s. We recently had a meeting with the teacher. First she hinted that she felt we were doing his work or giving him answers. Then we had her give him some math work which he got correct in front of her. But she was upset and we were told "well he is getting the right answers but not using the correct method. If he does that when we go back to traditional he will fail".......so the way we learned math and did it for 200 yrs in this country isnt good enough. He is supposed to spend ten mins a problem drawing boxes shading them in etc etc. Guess who wont be going back traditional? In a ahithole public school anyway.


Omg what is with old people and hating the new math. The point of the new math system is that it encourages problem solving instead of memorization. They figured out that now that all of us carry computers in our pockets that we didn't need to memorize multiplication tables.
Next you'll be telling me how disappointed you are that the school isn't teaching him cursive?
 
2021-01-18 9:38:07 AM  
When I was in middle and high school I was in the "homebound" program due to repeated bouts of illness caused by asthma. For six years I was tutored 4 hours a week instead of going to school.
As a result, I received a better education, surpassing what was taught in the classroom. I finished all my textbooks and began learning from my teachers college books.

But socially I was dumb as a rock, and it took years for me to overcome that.
If I had the access to social media/internet/etc... back then, I may have turned out different, and so may these students.

Everyone has a different way of learning, perhaps we should focus on that, and provide options to optimize the outcome.
 
2021-01-18 9:40:09 AM  

Lexx0001: ssaoi: They will face all those things in corporate life, too.  It's coming for them either way.

And they won't have developed any skills on how to deal with it.


You can quit a shiatty job, most kids don't have the agency to quit a shiatty school. Also, administrative conflict resolution in schools is generally garbage where no matter what happens or who is wrong/the aggressor, the baby must always be cut in half and both parties are punished equally regardless of the circumstances due to crippling fears about favoritism and discrimination.

Adult life can be depressing and challenging, but "justice" by any reasonable measure is hard to come by at all in the education system.
 
2021-01-18 9:40:28 AM  

Byno: drogg: Friend of mine teaches HS physics, and I asked him how things were going with online learning. His most interesting comment was that there were some kids who did great in person, but sucked online. And there were some who sucked in person, but were excelling online.

It's almost as if different people learn differently. Or something.


Agreed. But this is a new classification of learning for me, hence I found it interesting.
 
2021-01-18 9:41:40 AM  
sitting at home basically doing social media all day long instead of interacting with your fellow students is going to make a lot of very screwed up kids.  Special Ed has basically spent 60 years fighting to mainstream kids because being socially alone is so negative.
 
2021-01-18 9:43:02 AM  

thrillbilly1967: A big reason why is because the school makes it harder than it has to be. IE common core math etc. It shoikdnt take half a sheet of paper to do a math problem that I can do in 10 seconds the way I learned. My grandson that we are raising has struggled in math. Since doing virtual he has a 96 in math. Simply because I showed him how to do fractions division etc the way I learned in the 70s. We recently had a meeting with the teacher. First she hinted that she felt we were doing his work or giving him answers. Then we had her give him some math work which he got correct in front of her. But she was upset and we were told "well he is getting the right answers but not using the correct method. If he does that when we go back to traditional he will fail".......so the way we learned math and did it for 200 yrs in this country isnt good enough. He is supposed to spend ten mins a problem drawing boxes shading them in etc etc. Guess who wont be going back traditional? In a ahithole public school anyway.


Ugh.  There are those that can learn traditional math by wrote, and those that navigate math.  I'm in the latter camp.  I struggled something fierce with traditional wrote math, so I had to teach myself navigational methods thirty some years ago.  Turns out a lot of kids did and they were damned good at it.  For those of us who handle math and algebra in this manner, we're faster and more accurate than our peers who stick to wrote math.

Strangely, people noticed.  So this group of students were studied to figure out how they do it.  That's where common core math came from.  Studying successful methodologies.

Now, if you refuse to embrace these methodologies, that's fine.  Just realize that you're handicapping yourself compared to those of us who have.
 
2021-01-18 9:45:07 AM  

MythDragon: Online sucks. Especially for little kids.


^^^^THIS^^^^
 
2021-01-18 9:51:04 AM  
School shootings are waaay down.

/ still can't buy ammo
 
2021-01-18 9:55:11 AM  

thrillbilly1967: A big reason why is because the school makes it harder than it has to be. IE common core math etc. It shoikdnt take half a sheet of paper to do a math problem that I can do in 10 seconds the way I learned. My grandson that we are raising has struggled in math. Since doing virtual he has a 96 in math. Simply because I showed him how to do fractions division etc the way I learned in the 70s. We recently had a meeting with the teacher. First she hinted that she felt we were doing his work or giving him answers. Then we had her give him some math work which he got correct in front of her. But she was upset and we were told "well he is getting the right answers but not using the correct method. If he does that when we go back to traditional he will fail".......so the way we learned math and did it for 200 yrs in this country isnt good enough. He is supposed to spend ten mins a problem drawing boxes shading them in etc etc. Guess who wont be going back traditional? In a ahithole public school anyway.


The point is to expose a kid to different ways of solving the problem. A lot of kids got left behind the way you learned and they spent the rest of their lives thinking they couldn't do math.

What the point isn't is to get grades or get the right answer.

One of my favorite professors once told us, "Don't ever tell me you should get full credit because you got the right answer. I know the answer. I'm a goddamn professor of mathematics. I want to see your solution."
 
2021-01-18 9:59:04 AM  

Fabric_Man: You mean... These UK teens skipped their meat an STILL had pudding? This feels wrong.


I have it on good authority that you can't do this
 
2021-01-18 10:00:10 AM  

Katie98_KT: thrillbilly1967: A big reason why is because the school makes it harder than it has to be. IE common core math etc. It shoikdnt take half a sheet of paper to do a math problem that I can do in 10 seconds the way I learned. My grandson that we are raising has struggled in math. Since doing virtual he has a 96 in math. Simply because I showed him how to do fractions division etc the way I learned in the 70s. We recently had a meeting with the teacher. First she hinted that she felt we were doing his work or giving him answers. Then we had her give him some math work which he got correct in front of her. But she was upset and we were told "well he is getting the right answers but not using the correct method. If he does that when we go back to traditional he will fail".......so the way we learned math and did it for 200 yrs in this country isnt good enough. He is supposed to spend ten mins a problem drawing boxes shading them in etc etc. Guess who wont be going back traditional? In a ahithole public school anyway.

Omg what is with old people and hating the new math. The point of the new math system is that it encourages problem solving instead of memorization. They figured out that now that all of us carry computers in our pockets that we didn't need to memorize multiplication tables.
Next you'll be telling me how disappointed you are that the school isn't teaching him cursive?


Old people? I'm 53. I guess that's old to some. But I also know a lot of people who are in their 20s and 30s that absolutely despise common core...and they are the teachers. I have done everything from oil refinery work to being in management over 10 stores for a fortune 500 company. I retired at 45. I currently raise cattle rare breed chickens and drive a school bus because I get bored just sitting around. Point being that I have done the lowest jobs to a job where I spent 10 hrs a day doing nothing but numbers and managing money stock payroll etc. At no time was I struggling because I didnt draw boxes and shade them in. And I was so good at management of those numbers they would send me to other districts to find out what was wrong with them and correct it. A simple math mistake could've cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars or more. All without common core. I must be a walking miracle to people like you.

And cursive? I still write in cursive but it's from habit of doing it for 45 yrs. I dont have an opinion one way or another on that. If you like it use it. If you dont then dont use it.
 
2021-01-18 10:02:11 AM  
No mass school shootings this year - so far...

Has any reporters asked any congress critters how they felt hiding under their desks or running for a safe room?

DId they feel like what ti must be like to be a teenager in school possibly having seen people they know laying in a pool of blood, severely injured. Possibly missing parts of their body blown completely away, possibly sprayed on the walls?

Sure, they were scared, and they will protect themselves because they have the power to.

But they won't do a damn meaningful thing to protect our kids.
 
2021-01-18 10:02:45 AM  

drogg: Friend of mine teaches HS physics, and I asked him how things were going with online learning. His most interesting comment was that there were some kids who did great in person, but sucked online. And there were some who sucked in person, but were excelling online.


Despite common sense telling us kids are different, the orthodoxy even among educated liberals is that ALL children must go to school, in person, and in crowded classrooms. Hell I've seen arguments that things like homeschooling or private school are symbols of privilege and you're an oppressor just by taking advantage of being able to afford these options for your child. For their part, conservatives want kids in school to make sure there are replacement drones for retiring boomers.

IMO the best math and physics teachers are on Youtube anyway. 3blue1brown is an example. And I got much more out of independent reading than class assigned books. School did nothing to socialize me. Nothing, nada. Learned that later on.
 
2021-01-18 10:05:36 AM  
So you're saying not everyone is the same?  What a surprise...

"School closures in UK had positive effects on some teenagers' mental health"

Or also worded as "School closures in UK had negative effects on some teenagers' mental health"

Or "School closures in UK had differing effects on teenagers' and teachers mental health"
 
2021-01-18 10:10:39 AM  

Koodz: What the point isn't is to get grades or get the right answer.

One of my favorite professors once told us, "Don't ever tell me you should get full credit because you got the right answer. I know the answer. I'm a goddamn professor of mathematics. I want to see your solution."


Then that prof should go back to organic chem. Getting the answer is exactly the point of math. Sticking to one method regardless of a student's ability to comprehend that method is why schools are so bad at teaching math

Pretend you're fighting the Borg. If one method isn't working, switch to another. Adapt!
 
2021-01-18 10:23:04 AM  

Capt.Plywood: ssaoi: They will face all those things in corporate life, too.  It's coming for them either way.

Sometimes adults are mean, therefore it's good for children to be treated badly?


Of course! We suffered through school and we all turned out OK so why would we do anything different, ever?
I mean, yeah we didn't turn out OK and a lot of us didn't make it, but those of us who survived aren't farked up at all.

Reminds me of a not so cool story. I had a classmate murdered back in high school. Reena Virk. It was big news at the time because this was in Canada and we don't usually have stuff like that up here. Our bullies usually were satisfied trying to make kids eat poop, making younger kids worship them, you know, mental scarring rather than over the top physical violence. When it happened there was shocked outrage and everyone wanted to know "why". Except they didn't want to know the actual problem -- a system that tolerated and in some cases encouraged bullying. They wanted to know that the murderers were just a couple deranged kids, you know, a few bad apples and nothing really changed once her murder fell out of the news.
 
2021-01-18 10:25:48 AM  
Homeschoolers who aren't fundamentalists noted that too. It's why I grew up saner than most kids with mental health issues--fewer stressor and understanding support, even if no one knew anything was wrong.

/plus you get to do projects, which is fun
 
2021-01-18 10:34:37 AM  

bronskrat: If you don't force sleep-deprived teens to sit in tiny desks in crowded, stifling hot rooms all day, subject them to bullies and psychotic teachers and insane rules, punish creativity and reward mediocrity?

That question is not a question, it's missing the "What happens...".


Thank you!
I read that headline 3 times thinking I was missing something, either caffeine or comprehension.
 
2021-01-18 10:36:21 AM  

rideaurocks: Koodz: What the point isn't is to get grades or get the right answer.

One of my favorite professors once told us, "Don't ever tell me you should get full credit because you got the right answer. I know the answer. I'm a goddamn professor of mathematics. I want to see your solution."

Then that prof should go back to organic chem. Getting the answer is exactly the point of math. Sticking to one method regardless of a student's ability to comprehend that method is why schools are so bad at teaching math

Pretend you're fighting the Borg. If one method isn't working, switch to another. Adapt!


I don't know why you think we disagree.
 
2021-01-18 10:41:23 AM  

Wendigogo: Oh, we're for online learning now?


This. I learned through Fark comments that homeschooling was a cesspool of child abuse and developmental problems. Why we so cool with it now?
 
2021-01-18 10:42:56 AM  
CSB
Youngest was barely passing any of her classes in middle school. No direction. Couldn't get her to do homework. Psychologically was in a place of 'im too stupid for school.' The social aspects of 'friends, boys, just having fun, f' responsibility' was what was more or less taking up her attention. It was getting to the point that we were worrying if her path was going to lead to not graduating high school.

8th grade moved her full time to virtual.

She is now on her way to graduating high school as a junior. Almost strait A student. Has multiple scholarships along with being accepted to each of the colleges she applied for. She sometimes will push herself to do her schoolwork 10 to 13 hours a day; Some days the mrs and I have to actually more or less make her to take a damn break worrying she is going to burn herself out.

Also, this year went all 'im going to be student council president. Someone has to. I want to make and difference.' And she is. The school she is in has kids from all over WI - rural, suburban, & urban areas. Her project she has been working with student council is to set up virtual peer gatherings. Because covid and parents not wanting to send their kid to brick and mortar, there has been a large influx of students. But, many are now more or less physically isolated. She's doing this to fight some of the loneliness and isolation.

I think part of losing some of the 'social aspects' of middle/high school gave her more confidence in herself. Helped her find her voice. Taught her that 'hey, if I put in, ya know, actual work, I can accomplish the things I want to acomplish.' And 'i can have my own opinions' instead of following the crowd. Also, i think it made it easier for her to come out to us.

Virtual works better for some. Especially at the age when they are learning who they are and want to be. 

/CSB
 
2021-01-18 10:46:17 AM  
Funny, my mental health improved drastically when the virus closed my office last year.  Being unemployed for six weeks was one of the best things that ever happened to me.

It's almost like being an adult is 99 percent depressing, mind-numbing, make-work bullshiat.  Clearly the logical solution is to make more numb, depressed kids to fill the ranks.
 
2021-01-18 11:05:22 AM  

Harry Freakstorm: Just gonna force the bullies online or worse, house calls.


Let them make house calls.  That's where my family keeps its armory.
 
BBH
2021-01-18 11:17:00 AM  

Wendigogo: thrillbilly1967: A big reason why is because the school makes it harder than it has to be. IE common core math etc. It shoikdnt take half a sheet of paper to do a math problem that I can do in 10 seconds the way I learned. My grandson that we are raising has struggled in math. Since doing virtual he has a 96 in math. Simply because I showed him how to do fractions division etc the way I learned in the 70s. We recently had a meeting with the teacher. First she hinted that she felt we were doing his work or giving him answers. Then we had her give him some math work which he got correct in front of her. But she was upset and we were told "well he is getting the right answers but not using the correct method. If he does that when we go back to traditional he will fail".......so the way we learned math and did it for 200 yrs in this country isnt good enough. He is supposed to spend ten mins a problem drawing boxes shading them in etc etc. Guess who wont be going back traditional? In a ahithole public school anyway.

I am so relieved my state doesn't do common core. What a waste of time.


Until too many people cannot remember "the" way to do something. In elementary school CC Math is getting the students to understand how math works. Too many times people think 30% off means $0.30 off no matter the price or 30% of the price is the selling price. There are times when the standard algorithm makes sense and the students learn it and use it. BTW, too many elementary teachers do not understand why the math works and only use the structures that are in their textbooks. This statement is not an accusation, it is difficult for one person to be an "expert" in every area to be able to teach children, more and more teacher prep programs are addressing the issue for El. Ed teachers.

Yes, I teach math and science at HS and is well acquainted with the nearby University's El. Ed math courses.
 
2021-01-18 11:33:53 AM  
Think school is bad? Wait till you hit the work place.
 
2021-01-18 11:54:53 AM  

stuffy: Think school is bad? Wait till you hit the work place.


Yup. Once I left school I thought "Hooray! No more being trapped in a room all day, every day, with a bunch of assholes!"

Then I went to work. Then I quit work and started my own business where I was the only employee. After a while (quite a while), I started working with other people again but not as their co-worker. Instead, I was their boss so they could not be assholes to me, just each other.

Much better. Mind you, I find that employees are much nicer all round if they get paid a fair wage and work in a decent environment. Funny that.

Remember people, from the work you do, your company makes enough to pay you, your boss, the shareholders dividends, rent on the place where you work, advertising, stock and so on.

Since the 70's, productivity has carried on increasing at the same rate it has since the war but the wage paid to workers has flatlined. That profit is going somewhere and it isn't going into your pocket.

Next time you are at work, think about that.
 
2021-01-18 12:02:56 PM  

Katie98_KT: The point of the new math system is that it encourages problem solving instead of memorization. They figured out that now that all of us carry computers in our pockets that we didn't need to memorize multiplication tables.


This makes no sense whatsoever. None.

Go back to the children's table. NOW!
 
2021-01-18 12:05:33 PM  
Those are the only things that actually prepares a student for real life.
 
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