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(All Recipes)   I just told my husband from Scotland I do not remember bechamel sauce on American lasagne, but we do use herbed ricotta. He looked at me like I was crazy, Any clues on the origin of the jump to America?   (allrecipes.com) divider line
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781 clicks; posted to Food » on 16 Jan 2021 at 9:28 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2021-01-16 5:31:47 PM  
It's not unusual at all in traditional lasagne along with a nice tomato sauce, you would typically alternate layers with the sauces. WARNING: bechamel is not a substitute for Ricotta, no ricotta...no lasagne love.
 
2021-01-16 5:40:12 PM  
I hate ricotta cheese. It's a texture thing.
 
2021-01-16 5:40:54 PM  
Making bechamel sauce is too complicated for the average American home cook?

I think you can buy it pre-made.
 
2021-01-16 5:57:05 PM  
I don't use bechamel on lasagne--it just doesn't taste right to me--but I do use it on pastitsio. I grew up in the 80s and 90s in the midwest with my mother (and friends' moms) putting it on both, so it doesn't seem a new trend at all to me.
 
2021-01-16 6:01:22 PM  

Needlessly Complicated: Making bechamel sauce is too complicated for the average American home cook?

I think you can buy it pre-made.


Jesus, it takes a few minutes to make a bechamel.
 
2021-01-16 6:02:18 PM  

naughtyrev: Needlessly Complicated: Making bechamel sauce is too complicated for the average American home cook?

I think you can buy it pre-made.

Jesus, it takes a few minutes to make a bechamel.


Really.  Flour, butter, milk, and like 10 minutes.
 
2021-01-16 6:05:09 PM  
my family uses neither. the creamy goodness layer is small curd low fat cottage cheese, mixed with beaten egg, fresh garlic, dried parsley and sprinkled with very generous shredded mozz. alternated with the noodles and meat sauce (ground beef, never sausage) layers.
 
2021-01-16 6:12:04 PM  

enry: naughtyrev: Needlessly Complicated: Making bechamel sauce is too complicated for the average American home cook?

I think you can buy it pre-made.

Jesus, it takes a few minutes to make a bechamel.

Really.  Flour, butter, milk, and like 10 minutes.


Ok, I know that, and you know that, but Karen McSuburbdweller in Bumblefark, MO doesn't know that.
 
2021-01-16 6:19:33 PM  
also, if you make a nice juicy tomato meat sauce there is no need to precook the noodles, and no need to use those more expensive "no boil" special noodles. just wrap the whole pan tightly in tin foil and bake. the noodles will cook and the lasagna will not be "too soupy" when done.

damn, i want momma's lasagna now. used to request it for my birthday. freezes beautifully too.
 
2021-01-16 6:42:12 PM  
You find it made both ways in Italy.  From my experience, the bechamel version is more of a Northern thing. Probably due to the Swiss, German, French influence from the Alpine borders and shared culture.

It's Just like you find it with several traditional filling variations.
Hey, when eggplants or summer squash are in season, why not?

As to the jump to America, it almost undoubtedly from a 1890-1924 pre and post WW1 wave of immigration  and was confined to enclave/home cooking.
With the returning GIs of WW2 the "pizza Wave" hit the floor running and never looked back.  Returning Army cooks needed jobs too and brought with them  the things that they saw and tasted (not just Italian).
America had cash and want something new and "exotic".

As an aside, the Italians were extremely suspect of the tomato when first introduced from the Americas. It took them about 150 years to get over the fact it is a member of the nightshade family and get with the red.

If the Italians brought the concept of the noodle to the West then they did more than their fair share of bringing tomatoes to the east. Seeds  were a commodity.

A Soviet women was awarded the Order of Lenin for developing  a variety that could been grown in Siberia, obviously a short season determinate type.
The seeds  of that variety  were first introduced into the Americas via Canada.
Through cross breeding and hybridization the two varieties  are now distinct.

Now let's talk about cereals and 'taters.
 
2021-01-16 6:43:48 PM  
Eww carbs
 
2021-01-16 6:44:42 PM  

blender61: You find it made both ways in Italy.  From my experience, the bechamel version is more of a Northern thing. Probably due to the Swiss, German, French influence from the Alpine borders and shared culture.

It's Just like you find it with several traditional filling variations.
Hey, when eggplants or summer squash are in season, why not?

As to the jump to America, it almost undoubtedly from a 1890-1924 pre and post WW1 wave of immigration  and was confined to enclave/home cooking.
With the returning GIs of WW2 the "pizza Wave" hit the floor running and never looked back.  Returning Army cooks needed jobs too and brought with them  the things that they saw and tasted (not just Italian).
America had cash and want something new and "exotic".

As an aside, the Italians were extremely suspect of the tomato when first introduced from the Americas. It took them about 150 years to get over the fact it is a member of the nightshade family and get with the red.

If the Italians brought the concept of the noodle to the West then they did more than their fair share of bringing tomatoes to the east. Seeds  were a commodity.

A Soviet women was awarded the Order of Lenin for developing  a variety that could been grown in Siberia, obviously a short season determinate type.
The seeds  of that variety  were first introduced into the Americas via Canada.
Through cross breeding and hybridization the two varieties  are now distinct.

Now let's talk about cereals and 'taters.


you botany friend. you i like!
 
2021-01-16 6:45:50 PM  

OilfieldDrunk: Eww carbs


make a faux version using layers of sliced eggplant or zucchini instead of pasta. it's still really tasty!
 
2021-01-16 6:54:47 PM  

luna1580: OilfieldDrunk: Eww carbs

make a faux version using layers of sliced eggplant or zucchini instead of pasta. it's still really tasty!


however, in this application use a much drier tomato sauce. serve with grilled or baked chicken on the side.
 
2021-01-16 7:05:45 PM  
Yeah, béchamel is Northern Italy.  Most immigrants to the US were from Southern Italy, where they wouldn't have used it.  The Northerners would also make fresh egg noodles for their lasagna while Southerns would have generally used dried semolina/water pasta.  The béchamel and Bolognese version is good, but I really prefer the Southern one.
 
2021-01-16 7:07:09 PM  

OilfieldDrunk: Eww carbs


These words are in English but this doesn't make any sense.
 
2021-01-16 7:28:41 PM  

luna1580: you botany friend. you i like!


:)

Plants and their histories are extremely interesting if you care to look. It's been a life long fascination with me.

Your turtles are very cute and look well loved.
 
2021-01-16 7:36:17 PM  

blender61: luna1580: you botany friend. you i like!

:)

Plants and their histories are extremely interesting if you care to look. It's been a life long fascination with me.

Your turtles are very cute and look well loved.


awwww, thanks! tiny and tank are bigger now. tiny's front nails are SOOOO long, he's definitely a boy. trying to sneak up on them and get an update pic 😄
 
2021-01-16 9:33:24 PM  

luna1580: also, if you make a nice juicy tomato meat sauce there is no need to precook the noodles, and no need to use those more expensive "no boil" special noodles. just wrap the whole pan tightly in tin foil and bake. the noodles will cook and the lasagna will not be "too soupy" when done.

damn, i want momma's lasagna now. used to request it for my birthday. freezes beautifully too.


This.  You can use a jar of Ragu with 12 oz of water, heated in the microwave, if you're lazy.
 
2021-01-16 9:35:48 PM  

blender61: You find it made both ways in Italy.  From my experience, the bechamel version is more of a Northern thing. Probably due to the Swiss, German, French influence from the Alpine borders and shared culture.

It's Just like you find it with several traditional filling variations.
Hey, when eggplants or summer squash are in season, why not?

As to the jump to America, it almost undoubtedly from a 1890-1924 pre and post WW1 wave of immigration  and was confined to enclave/home cooking.
With the returning GIs of WW2 the "pizza Wave" hit the floor running and never looked back.  Returning Army cooks needed jobs too and brought with them  the things that they saw and tasted (not just Italian).
America had cash and want something new and "exotic".

As an aside, the Italians were extremely suspect of the tomato when first introduced from the Americas. It took them about 150 years to get over the fact it is a member of the nightshade family and get with the red.

If the Italians brought the concept of the noodle to the West then they did more than their fair share of bringing tomatoes to the east. Seeds  were a commodity.

A Soviet women was awarded the Order of Lenin for developing  a variety that could been grown in Siberia, obviously a short season determinate type.
The seeds  of that variety  were first introduced into the Americas via Canada.
Through cross breeding and hybridization the two varieties  are now distinct.

Now let's talk about cereals and 'taters.


Russian Tomatos, the ones that are funky colored are amazing.

Tomatos came from South America.
 
2021-01-16 9:36:43 PM  

FrancoFile: luna1580: also, if you make a nice juicy tomato meat sauce there is no need to precook the noodles, and no need to use those more expensive "no boil" special noodles. just wrap the whole pan tightly in tin foil and bake. the noodles will cook and the lasagna will not be "too soupy" when done.

damn, i want momma's lasagna now. used to request it for my birthday. freezes beautifully too.

This.  You can use a jar of Ragu with 12 oz of water, heated in the microwave, if you're lazy.


Aldis has great premade sauce if you are lazy.

Ragu is terrible.
 
2021-01-16 9:40:48 PM  

theflatline: FrancoFile: luna1580: also, if you make a nice juicy tomato meat sauce there is no need to precook the noodles, and no need to use those more expensive "no boil" special noodles. just wrap the whole pan tightly in tin foil and bake. the noodles will cook and the lasagna will not be "too soupy" when done.

damn, i want momma's lasagna now. used to request it for my birthday. freezes beautifully too.

This.  You can use a jar of Ragu with 12 oz of water, heated in the microwave, if you're lazy.

Aldis has great premade sauce if you are lazy.

Ragu is terrible.


they just opened a new aldi right by me! it's been ages since i went to one, but i remember them having great cheap chocolate, seasonal hard cider, and gluten free baking mixes (ex was GF). will try their pasta sauce. basically, people who like trader joes like aldi. same parent company.
 
2021-01-16 9:52:29 PM  

enry: naughtyrev: Needlessly Complicated: Making bechamel sauce is too complicated for the average American home cook?

I think you can buy it pre-made.

Jesus, it takes a few minutes to make a bechamel.

Really.  Flour, butter, milk, and like 10 minutes.


You'll roux the day you can do that.
 
2021-01-16 10:11:21 PM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: I hate ricotta cheese. It's a texture thing.


Cottage cheese is a nice substitute imho.
 
2021-01-16 10:13:17 PM  
I've tried making it both ways and prefer the béchamel version. It's just a preference.
 
2021-01-16 10:13:43 PM  

luna1580: also, if you make a nice juicy tomato meat sauce there is no need to precook the noodles, and no need to use those more expensive "no boil" special noodles. just wrap the whole pan tightly in tin foil and bake. the noodles will cook and the lasagna will not be "too soupy" when done.

damn, i want momma's lasagna now. used to request it for my birthday. freezes beautifully too.


You cook like my wife does. I love it.
 
2021-01-16 10:15:05 PM  

blender61: If the Italians brought the concept of the noodle to the West then they did more than their fair share of bringing tomatoes to the east.


If that's a reference to Marco Polo supposedly introducing pasta from China, that's a myth, supposedly pushed by pasta marketing companies in the 20th century.

Pasta and other unleavened dough-based products were already known around the Med before his travels.
 
2021-01-16 10:17:03 PM  

luna1580: theflatline: FrancoFile: luna1580: also, if you make a nice juicy tomato meat sauce there is no need to precook the noodles, and no need to use those more expensive "no boil" special noodles. just wrap the whole pan tightly in tin foil and bake. the noodles will cook and the lasagna will not be "too soupy" when done.

damn, i want momma's lasagna now. used to request it for my birthday. freezes beautifully too.

This.  You can use a jar of Ragu with 12 oz of water, heated in the microwave, if you're lazy.

Aldis has great premade sauce if you are lazy.

Ragu is terrible.

they just opened a new aldi right by me! it's been ages since i went to one, but i remember them having great cheap chocolate, seasonal hard cider, and gluten free baking mixes (ex was GF). will try their pasta sauce. basically, people who like trader joes like aldi. same parent company.


They're pasta sauce is very good.
 
2021-01-16 10:21:27 PM  
I had to look up bechamel sauce. Never heard of it before.
 
2021-01-16 10:34:55 PM  

abhorrent1: I had to look up bechamel sauce. Never heard of it before.


Seriously? It's one of French cuisine's mother sauces, but also known as a basic white sauce in the anglosphere.
 
2021-01-16 10:44:09 PM  

luna1580: OilfieldDrunk: Eww carbs

make a faux version using layers of sliced eggplant or zucchini instead of pasta. it's still really tasty!


Sprinkle some salt on the vegetables for a bit to get some moisture out.
 
2021-01-16 10:44:17 PM  
The recipe is ALREADY bullsh*t with brown sugar in the sauce, simmered with oregano and waaaay overcooked basil. The brown sugar is there to counteract the bitterness that oregano gets with too much time and heat. It already is trying to fix a mistake intrinsically, as opposed to just correcting it by adding the oregano in later. No need for brown sugar bullsh*t.

Should have started off with a basic marinara, browned the beef with garlic and onions, and stirred in the marinara, then it's a simple bolognese. Spice it up as you will. Marinara is a base, not a be all, end all. A good marinara as your base, you don't need tomato paste. Period.

The ricotta is close, and it has egg which is good, but this thing's a mess. This isn't "American" it's just a bad lasagne recipe.
 
2021-01-16 10:53:13 PM  

luna1580: OilfieldDrunk: Eww carbs

make a faux version using layers of sliced eggplant or zucchini instead of pasta. it's still really tasty!


Or just follow a moussaka recipe instead. They've got the same basic ingredients and end results, they just differ on the material used to build the layers.
 
2021-01-16 10:55:58 PM  

iron de havilland: abhorrent1: I had to look up bechamel sauce. Never heard of it before.

Seriously? It's one of French cuisine's mother sauces, but also known as a basic white sauce in the anglosphere.


I'm sure I've probably had it I just never heard that name before. It's not something I've ever made before though.
 
2021-01-16 11:02:32 PM  

iron de havilland: luna1580: OilfieldDrunk: Eww carbs

make a faux version using layers of sliced eggplant or zucchini instead of pasta. it's still really tasty!

Or just follow a moussaka recipe instead. They've got the same basic ingredients and end results, they just differ on the material used to build the layers.


first time i had moussaka, and it was in a restaurant, i loved it -this is why. but i feel strongly it needs to be made with bechamel. i think my beloved lasagna cottage cheese and egg would be texturally very wrong for it.

and it may seem weird to you, but non-foodie/chef-y americans do NOT just know "the mother sauces" as a rule.

we're lucky if they can make microwave "just add water" mac-n-cheese, and since the pandemic more people than ever before just get EVERYTHING delivered, no home cooking, sigh.....
 
2021-01-16 11:04:36 PM  

abhorrent1: iron de havilland: abhorrent1: I had to look up bechamel sauce. Never heard of it before.

Seriously? It's one of French cuisine's mother sauces, but also known as a basic white sauce in the anglosphere.

I'm sure I've probably had it I just never heard that name before. It's not something I've ever made before though.


any recipe involving "basic white sauce" cooked with flour is a form of it.

old school "milk gravy" for biscuits is actually a form of bechamel. we just don't always call it that.....
 
2021-01-16 11:11:46 PM  
Secret of "Milk Gravy" is to brown the f--- out of the flour in the drippings or pan grease before the milk goes in.

Good idea to nuke the milk until it's warm before adding as well.
 
2021-01-16 11:12:55 PM  

luna1580: abhorrent1: iron de havilland: abhorrent1: I had to look up bechamel sauce. Never heard of it before.

Seriously? It's one of French cuisine's mother sauces, but also known as a basic white sauce in the anglosphere.

I'm sure I've probably had it I just never heard that name before. It's not something I've ever made before though.

any recipe involving "basic white sauce" cooked with flour is a form of it.

old school "milk gravy" for biscuits is actually a form of bechamel. we just don't always call it that.....


Oh I love biscuits and gravy so I've definitely had it. Like I said, I just never heard that name before.
 
2021-01-16 11:25:15 PM  

iron de havilland: enry: naughtyrev: Needlessly Complicated: Making bechamel sauce is too complicated for the average American home cook?

I think you can buy it pre-made.

Jesus, it takes a few minutes to make a bechamel.

Really.  Flour, butter, milk, and like 10 minutes.

You'll roux the day you can do that.


"Roux the day"?  Who says that?
 
2021-01-16 11:28:14 PM  

Sub Human: Secret of "Milk Gravy" is to brown the f--- out of the flour in the drippings or pan grease before the milk goes in.

Good idea to nuke the milk until it's warm before adding as well.


sounds like you like more "cajun" gravy, you just described a "nut-brown roux" like the base of a good gumbo 😊

it's the maillard reaction you are enjoying, nice carmelly umami notes!
 
2021-01-16 11:28:58 PM  

Ambitwistor: iron de havilland: enry: naughtyrev: Needlessly Complicated: Making bechamel sauce is too complicated for the average American home cook?

I think you can buy it pre-made.

Jesus, it takes a few minutes to make a bechamel.

Really.  Flour, butter, milk, and like 10 minutes.

You'll roux the day you can do that.

"Roux the day"?  Who says that?


food tab pro punsters
 
2021-01-16 11:39:49 PM  

capt_sensible: It's not unusual at all in traditional lasagne along with a nice tomato sauce, you would typically alternate layers with the sauces. WARNING: bechamel is not a substitute for Ricotta, no ricotta...no lasagne love.


wtf??  you have never had lasagna.
 
2021-01-16 11:48:30 PM  

Ambitwistor: iron de havilland: enry: naughtyrev: Needlessly Complicated: Making bechamel sauce is too complicated for the average American home cook?

I think you can buy it pre-made.

Jesus, it takes a few minutes to make a bechamel.

Really.  Flour, butter, milk, and like 10 minutes.

You'll roux the day you can do that.

"Roux the day"?  Who says that?



roux  /roo/    noun
a mixture of fat (especially butter) and flour used in making sauces.
 
2021-01-16 11:49:21 PM  
What I gather from this thread is that people make lasagne differently.  To me putting such things like cottage cheese and spinach in it is a disgusting thought.  Make it however you like I say.
 
2021-01-16 11:53:59 PM  

luna1580: my family uses neither. the creamy goodness layer is small curd low fat cottage cheese, mixed with beaten egg, fresh garlic, dried parsley and sprinkled with very generous shredded mozz. alternated with the noodles and meat sauce (ground beef, never sausage) layers.


This is exactly my method.
 
2021-01-17 12:01:30 AM  

luna1580: Ambitwistor: iron de havilland: enry: naughtyrev: Needlessly Complicated: Making bechamel sauce is too complicated for the average American home cook?

I think you can buy it pre-made.

Jesus, it takes a few minutes to make a bechamel.

Really.  Flour, butter, milk, and like 10 minutes.

You'll roux the day you can do that.

"Roux the day"?  Who says that?

food tab pro punsters


I'll enjoy the jokes with popcorn, then.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-01-17 12:06:21 AM  

Moniker o' Shame: What I gather from this thread is that people make lasagne differently.  To me putting such things like cottage cheese and spinach in it is a disgusting thought.  Make it however you like I say.


If by "differently" you mean making basic errors like bittering oregano and then making a sh*tty fix a part of the recipe instead of just adjusting to remove the problem entirely?

A good marinara never needs sugar, brown or white. Sugaring a tomato sauce of this sort is a persistent mistake, and born from ignorance of the strengths and weaknesses of the ingredients.

As for bechamel in a lasagne...maybe if you were making a white lasagne, but even then, you still want ricotta with a bit of egg, parm, and herbs. Bechamel or better yet, a proper Alfredo, as a substitute for tomato sauce are acceptable then. Bechamel instead of ricotta...that's just bad lasagne again.

And sadly, people often pass down sh*tty recipes to their kids.
 
2021-01-17 12:18:34 AM  

iron de havilland: luna1580: OilfieldDrunk: Eww carbs

make a faux version using layers of sliced eggplant or zucchini instead of pasta. it's still really tasty!

Or just follow a moussaka recipe instead. They've got the same basic ingredients and end results, they just differ on the material used to build the layers.


Or use keto-friendly egg-and-cheese "noodles."
 
2021-01-17 12:19:00 AM  

hubiestubert: If by "differently" you mean making basic errors like bittering oregano and then making a sh*tty fix a part of the recipe instead of just adjusting to remove the problem entirely?

A good marinara never needs sugar, brown or white. Sugaring a tomato sauce of this sort is a persistent mistake, and born from ignorance of the strengths and weaknesses of the ingredients.

As for bechamel in a lasagne...maybe if you were making a white lasagne, but even then, you still want ricotta with a bit of egg, parm, and herbs. Bechamel or better yet, a proper Alfredo, as a substitute for tomato sauce are acceptable then. Bechamel instead of ricotta...that's just bad lasagne again.

And sadly, people often pass down sh*tty recipes to their kids.


I do not believe that I mentioned any of the above that you are babbling about.  Hold on, let me check.  No, I did not mention any of that.
 
2021-01-17 12:25:36 AM  
Also, CSB:

My kid went through a phase where he only wanted to eat linguine Alfredo, which he called "noodles with white sauce."

My MIL, in an effort to impress, proudly announced she was making our kid's favorite, and served the extended family a giant bowl of spaghetti in a bland, cold and congealed bechamel.  It was one of the worst meals of my adult life.  Afterwards, we had to explain to the rest of the family that it wasn't our fault.
 
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