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(BBC)   New medicine may reduce number of Covid patients needing respirators by 80%, by jump starting immune response in lungs   (bbc.co.uk) divider line
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3190 clicks; posted to Main » and STEM » on 13 Jan 2021 at 1:35 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2021-01-13 11:04:16 AM  
A course of treatment with the new drug could cost around £2,000, which is not that expensive for a hospital treatment.

Good news for Americans -- as long as all beds are full, the hospital makes more money by giving you the drug than by letting you get sicker, because they have no way to bill you for being sick unless they have a place to put you.
 
2021-01-13 1:38:00 PM  
What a respirator might look like: 
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-01-13 1:39:40 PM  
I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.
 
2021-01-13 1:42:21 PM  

ZAZ: A course of treatment with the new drug could cost around £2,000, which is not that expensive for a hospital treatment.

Good news for Americans -- as long as all beds are full, the hospital makes more money by giving you the drug than by letting you get sicker, because they have no way to bill you for being sick unless they have a place to put you.


Don't underestimate American Hospitals, they'll bill you for anything, anywhere, anytime.
 
2021-01-13 1:44:59 PM  

ZAZ: A course of treatment with the new drug could cost around £2,000, which is not that expensive for a hospital treatment.

Good news for Americans -- as long as all beds are full, the hospital makes more money by giving you the drug than by letting you get sicker, because they have no way to bill you for being sick unless they have a place to put you.


And that's two thousand pounds, but in the UK.

Healthcare costs in the US, compared to the UK, are like comparing exchange rates in Canada, compared to the US. A pound of UK healthcare is, like, $700 in US healthcare.

"To be viable it will have to represent good value for money," Synairgen's chief executive Richard Marsden said.

Upon hearing this, US pharmaceutical executives laughed so hard that they herniated.
 
2021-01-13 1:46:22 PM  

Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.


The pneumonia that damages the lungs and forces people onto ventilators is caused by the viral infection, not the immunoresponse to the infection.
 
2021-01-13 1:46:47 PM  
They use the word "hope" four times in that article. I'd wait for something a little more concrete before we start celebrating.
 
2021-01-13 1:47:57 PM  
2000£ is about $2700 US, but then you'll need to tack on another $20,000 for the privilege of being treated by the greatest healthcare system in the world.
 
2021-01-13 1:48:55 PM  
Whew!  We can all breathe a little easier now.
 
2021-01-13 1:49:07 PM  

HighZoolander: ZAZ: A course of treatment with the new drug could cost around £2,000, which is not that expensive for a hospital treatment.

Good news for Americans -- as long as all beds are full, the hospital makes more money by giving you the drug than by letting you get sicker, because they have no way to bill you for being sick unless they have a place to put you.

Don't underestimate American Hospitals, they'll bill you for anything, anywhere, anytime.



I knew a lawyer that worked for a hospital in my city.  He said some (yeah, not all but some) of the reason
for high costs is LAWSUITS over the least little thing.  Law firms know exactly how much it costs to
defend a lawsuit, and, will sometimes bring a suit, for under that amount, in hopes of a settlement.
It's not if the suit is valid or not, but how much it costs to defend it.  Cheaper to settle, than defend it,
so the costs are past onto the consumer.
 
2021-01-13 1:50:26 PM  
Wait for Phase III
 
2021-01-13 1:53:24 PM  

Apocalyptic Inferno: Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.

The pneumonia that damages the lungs and forces people onto ventilators is caused by the viral infection, not the immunoresponse to the infection.


Immunoresponse. Sorry, that's what I meant. I may have been a graduate of this fine institution.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-01-13 1:57:07 PM  

Pecunia non olet: Wait for Phase III


Profit?
 
2021-01-13 1:59:38 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

Simpsons did it?
 
2021-01-13 1:59:40 PM  

Apocalyptic Inferno: Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.

The pneumonia that damages the lungs and forces people onto ventilators is caused by the viral infection, not the immunoresponse to the infection.


Pneumonia by definition is an inflammatory disease.
 
2021-01-13 2:01:22 PM  
An 80% reduction in respirators will be offset in the US by increasing the cost of that treatment by 80%.
 
2021-01-13 2:05:19 PM  
Five spiffies in a row! A spiffecta?
 
2021-01-13 2:07:31 PM  

Apocalyptic Inferno: Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.

The pneumonia that damages the lungs and forces people onto ventilators is caused by the viral infection, not the immunoresponse to the infection.


The virus is not definitively understood at this point, but the most compelling hypothesis I've seen links it to the overproduction of a necessary peptide called "bradykinin", which plays a lot of different roles in a wide variety of body functions and organs.
 
2021-01-13 2:09:45 PM  
"As in the earlier trial, half the participants will be given the drug, the other half will get what is known as a placebo - an inactive substance."

Um ... could we get a second control group that's *not* given the placebo?  I would hate for some later report of "medical treatment causes 400% increase in likelihood of Covid patients needing respirators", and the medication is only undoing damage from the nebulizer.
 
2021-01-13 2:11:09 PM  

Ashelth: Apocalyptic Inferno: Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.

The pneumonia that damages the lungs and forces people onto ventilators is caused by the viral infection, not the immunoresponse to the infection.

Pneumonia by definition is an inflammatory disease.


So if your lungs fill up with fluid through some other mechanism than immune response then it isn't pneumonia?  Is that what you're saying?

I'm not being incredulous btw, I'm asking if that is true.  I always thought that pneumonia was descriptive of a symptom rather than a cause, since we often preface the word "pneumonia" with what exactly is causing it.
 
2021-01-13 2:18:31 PM  

Gawdzila: Ashelth: Apocalyptic Inferno: Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.

The pneumonia that damages the lungs and forces people onto ventilators is caused by the viral infection, not the immunoresponse to the infection.

Pneumonia by definition is an inflammatory disease.

So if your lungs fill up with fluid through some other mechanism than immune response then it isn't pneumonia?  Is that what you're saying?

I'm not being incredulous btw, I'm asking if that is true.  I always thought that pneumonia was descriptive of a symptom rather than a cause, since we often preface the word "pneumonia" with what exactly is causing it.


Yes, not all pulmonary edema is caused by pneumonia.
 
2021-01-13 2:19:01 PM  

Gawdzila: Ashelth: Apocalyptic Inferno: Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.

The pneumonia that damages the lungs and forces people onto ventilators is caused by the viral infection, not the immunoresponse to the infection.

Pneumonia by definition is an inflammatory disease.

So if your lungs fill up with fluid through some other mechanism than immune response then it isn't pneumonia?  Is that what you're saying?

I'm not being incredulous btw, I'm asking if that is true.  I always thought that pneumonia was descriptive of a symptom rather than a cause, since we often preface the word "pneumonia" with what exactly is causing it.


Technically pulmonary edema is the problem (the excess fluid in the lungs part). It could be through heart failure, pneumonia, or some other cause .
 
2021-01-13 2:21:31 PM  
Fluvoxamine or cyproheptadine.  Both prevent severe form Covid-19.  A major branch of SARS-CoV-2'S coagulopathy is serotonin dependent.  Block the serotonin from assisting coagulation and your patients won't get that alveolar dead space that necessitates invasive intervention.  Two years from now we'll see commissions arising that determine 12mg cyproheptadine-a dirt cheap antihistamine-could have cut our casualties by an order of magnitude.
 
2021-01-13 2:21:49 PM  
Let me guess, hydroxychloroquine? XD
 
2021-01-13 2:26:35 PM  

Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.


Timing is important. You want the immune system to respond quickly and then slow down after the viral phase has ended.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2021-01-13 2:28:43 PM  

Gawdzila: Ashelth: Apocalyptic Inferno: Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.

The pneumonia that damages the lungs and forces people onto ventilators is caused by the viral infection, not the immunoresponse to the infection.

Pneumonia by definition is an inflammatory disease.

So if your lungs fill up with fluid through some other mechanism than immune response then it isn't pneumonia?  Is that what you're saying?

I'm not being incredulous btw, I'm asking if that is true.  I always thought that pneumonia was descriptive of a symptom rather than a cause, since we often preface the word "pneumonia" with what exactly is causing it.


The less dickish answer is terminology was developed and is utilized so a single word or short phrase conveys complex information.

Pulmonary edema is not specific as to the cause.  Acute pulmonary edema (at least when I learned this crap in my patho course 20+ years ago) is trauma related.  Once you get a pathogen diagnosis it becomes pneumonia, once that infectious agent is identified then you can call it viral/bacterial/fungal pneumonia.

Viral pneumonia is also termed 'walking pneumonia'.  As in walk it off there's almost fark all we can do... Assuming the patient can walk.  If they can't it's bad times.
 
2021-01-13 2:33:50 PM  

gunsmack: They use the word "hope" four times in that article. I'd wait for something a little more concrete before we start celebrating.


Yeah, and the study seems small.  Maybe a supply issue, or the £2000 pricetag.

600 participants, split between treatment and placebo.

Not my area at all, but I would think it'd be hard to get enough NTT data for various demographics and infection stages from that.

I could be wrong though.
 
2021-01-13 2:35:09 PM  

stinkynuts: Let me guess, hydroxychloroquine? XD


Old hat.

I was expecting ivermectin.
 
2021-01-13 2:35:36 PM  
"New drug"? Interferon? Hasn't that been a "new, miracle drug" for thirty or forty years?
 
2021-01-13 2:35:48 PM  

backhand.slap.of.reason: Fluvoxamine or cyproheptadine.  Both prevent severe form Covid-19.  A major branch of SARS-CoV-2'S coagulopathy is serotonin dependent.  Block the serotonin from assisting coagulation and your patients won't get that alveolar dead space that necessitates invasive intervention.  Two years from now we'll see commissions arising that determine 12mg cyproheptadine-a dirt cheap antihistamine-could have cut our casualties by an order of magnitude.


I've seen that hypothesis and it looks plausible. Are there any clinical trials or experimental results to support it yet?
 
2021-01-13 3:07:33 PM  
All clinical trials contain treatments that are plausible, sensible, and have a chance of working. No one starts trials that are not plausible, etc. Yet the majority of trials do not pan out. Let's see some data before we get excited. A syringe dripping a fluid purporting to be interferon was on the cover of Newsweek around 1985 with a "Cure for Cancer?" headline.
 
2021-01-13 3:16:11 PM  

dennysgod: 2000£ is about $2700 US, but then you'll need to tack on another $20,000 for the privilege of being treated by the greatest healthcare system in the world.


They list-price it at $20,000 which is what the uninsured pay, but insurance companies would probably only pay about $2700.

The hospitals need this arrangement because the uninsured pay for the indignant.

The insurance companies love this arrangement because it scares people away from self-paying.
 
2021-01-13 3:27:33 PM  
rapid healing is where scars come from.

rapid healing is where scars come from.

rapid healing is...

I have a cousin whose 19yo daughter has a full ride athletic scholarship.  About a month ago she got a "cold" - minor flu-like symptoms.  Because of gatherings coming up and the pandemic in general, she got tested - it was COVID.  Symptoms went away after about a week, she stayed quarantined for 14 days total.  Then she tried to restart her daily extensive workout routine, and couldn't do anything.  Went back to various doctors and specialists, her lungs are completely filled with scars that they are pretty positive are permanent and can't do anything about.  She can't walk across a room without getting out of breath, a month ago she was a marathon-running, full-ride-athletic-scholarship-having, 19yo.  Beautiful, smart girl, her life as she knew it is gone.

I'm not saying people need to go on ventilators, but looking at speeding up lung healing sounds like a bad idea to me.

//not a doctor
 
2021-01-13 3:32:08 PM  
Update:  my wife says there is something about this I'm not understanding but she didn't have time to explain it to me, because she's late to work as a professor of medicine at a top-tier medical school as a zoonotic virologist in a lab that shifted last year to primarily working on treatments for COVID19, and that my concerns are just a super great question for the uneducated but aren't necessary.  So like, disregard I guess.

Except the part about my cousin's daughter, because that shiat sucks and whenever I hear people talking just about death rates I want to punch them in the face.  Was death rate the primary concern for Polio?  Nope.
 
2021-01-13 3:34:07 PM  

Enigmamf: The hospitals need this arrangement because the uninsured pay for the indignant.


this isn't true.  Uninsured simply don't have an ability to negotiate prices before-hand and withhold approval if a cheaper price isn't given.

It's pretty much the same as union vs non-union workplaces, except in reverse, where the rich keep more of the money and the people doing the actual work get less.
 
2021-01-13 4:30:25 PM  

Ashelth: Gawdzila: Ashelth: Apocalyptic Inferno: Wendigogo: I thought the immune response was part of the problem- as in it overdid its job, killing the patient.

The pneumonia that damages the lungs and forces people onto ventilators is caused by the viral infection, not the immunoresponse to the infection.

Pneumonia by definition is an inflammatory disease.

So if your lungs fill up with fluid through some other mechanism than immune response then it isn't pneumonia?  Is that what you're saying?

I'm not being incredulous btw, I'm asking if that is true.  I always thought that pneumonia was descriptive of a symptom rather than a cause, since we often preface the word "pneumonia" with what exactly is causing it.

The less dickish answer is terminology was developed and is utilized so a single word or short phrase conveys complex information.

Pulmonary edema is not specific as to the cause.  Acute pulmonary edema (at least when I learned this crap in my patho course 20+ years ago) is trauma related.  Once you get a pathogen diagnosis it becomes pneumonia, once that infectious agent is identified then you can call it viral/bacterial/fungal pneumonia.

Viral pneumonia is also termed 'walking pneumonia'.  As in walk it off there's almost fark all we can do... Assuming the patient can walk.  If they can't it's bad times.


PE is a swelling of the alveolar tissues.  Pneumonia is fluid occupying the alveoli that blocks gas exchange. PE is on the inside of the gas exchanging membrane whereas pneumonia sits atop it. PE is often colloquially referred to as pneumonia but it's technically something different.
 
2021-01-13 6:11:40 PM  

backhand.slap.of.reason: Fluvoxamine or cyproheptadine.  Both prevent severe form Covid-19.  A major branch of SARS-CoV-2'S coagulopathy is serotonin dependent.  Block the serotonin from assisting coagulation and your patients won't get that alveolar dead space that necessitates invasive intervention.  Two years from now we'll see commissions arising that determine 12mg cyproheptadine-a dirt cheap antihistamine-could have cut our casualties by an order of magnitude.


Are people on SSRIs or SNRIs in bigger trouble here? Or do those drugs only keep more serotonin flowing about in the brain without impacting how it performs in the rest of the body.

People with mental health disorders are considered to be at higher risk of contracting covid-19 but it seemed to be mostly down to not being in the best socioeconomic group, and having a higher likelihood of co-morbidities etc. Could it be antidepressant medications are themselves having an effect?

Also here's a fun thing to look forward to, covid-19 survivors have a higher risk of developing mental health disorders like depression and anxiety, despite never never having experienced those disorders prior to becoming infected.
 
2021-01-13 6:20:33 PM  

HighZoolander: ZAZ: A course of treatment with the new drug could cost around £2,000, which is not that expensive for a hospital treatment.

Good news for Americans -- as long as all beds are full, the hospital makes more money by giving you the drug than by letting you get sicker, because they have no way to bill you for being sick unless they have a place to put you.

Don't underestimate American Hospitals, they'll bill you for anything, anywhere, anytime.


Including charging you $100 for a dose of otc Tylenol.

That's part of why you have insurance, they don't want to pay $100 for Tylenol so they fight the hospital, you don't have to.
 
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