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(Politico) Spiffy We actually have a 40% more Covid vaccine then we thought because we really, REALLY suck at math   (politico.com) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Federal government of the United States, vials of Pfizer, Pharmacy, extra doses, leftover vaccine, Guidance, Drug Administration, federal government  
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3389 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Dec 2020 at 10:25 PM (17 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-12-16 6:29:27 PM  
How the fark does this happen? Seriously this is keystone cops type shiat.
 
2020-12-16 6:33:48 PM  
This doesn't pass the smell test. WTF is going on?
 
2020-12-16 6:45:30 PM  
According to https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/down​l​oad each dose is 0.3 mL and the vaccine is prepared by diluting the concentrated material in the vial with 1.8 mL of saline solution. So that means that there would be at least 6 doses in there instead of the official 5.
 
2020-12-16 6:54:08 PM  

Nadie_AZ: This doesn't pass the smell test. WTF is going on?


I can attest to it, it happens all the time. They overfill vials like crazy. But with this one? I'm kind of shocked at how much they are overfilled by.
 
2020-12-16 6:59:02 PM  
This is a good thing because more Pfizer vaccine isn't coming until fall 2021.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/16/politi​c​s/coronavirus-vaccine-pfizer-supply-is​sues/index.html
 
2020-12-16 7:05:55 PM  
40% overfill seems really high. The pumps that dose the product into the vials are incredibly precise, like to the microliter. It's not unusual to overfile by a few percent, you don't want to deal with patients complaining they were shorted, but not 40% That's just dumb.
 
2020-12-16 7:06:26 PM  

Nadie_AZ: This doesn't pass the smell test. WTF is going on?


Normally I would say you are reaching, but it dawned on me this isn't a start up make your own meal at home business going a tad heavy on the mozzarella, this is a pharmaceutical giant.  The field that relies on 100% accuracy.  3 grains of fentanyl v. 1 equals death.  WTF does it mean they can't get the dosage in bottles right?  Good call subby, this stinks on dry ice.
 
2020-12-16 7:09:00 PM  

not enough beer: How the fark does this happen? Seriously this is keystone cops type shiat.


They hired the same guys who programmed the Mars Climate Orbiter to fill the vials.
 
2020-12-16 7:17:52 PM  

IgG4: 40% overfill seems really high. The pumps that dose the product into the vials are incredibly precise, like to the microliter. It's not unusual to overfile by a few percent, you don't want to deal with patients complaining they were shorted, but not 40% That's just dumb.


Look at the link I posted above. Most of the volume is from the saline solution which is added at the clinic, and that alone is enough to make at least 6 doses per vial. When they rated it for only 5 they must have been leaving a large safety margin to account for spillage or measurement errors when it was administered.
 
2020-12-16 8:05:42 PM  
a 40% more Covid vaccine then we thought

I may suck at math but subby sucks at grammar.
 
2020-12-16 9:23:52 PM  
Don't they know how much they made overall??? This confuses me so much. I did see someone say that this has more to do with clever pharmacists than anything else. Still raises lots of questions.
 
2020-12-16 10:27:16 PM  
Don't worry tho, it won't affect the shareholder price.
 
2020-12-16 10:27:58 PM  
This has to violate some kind of Federal regulation somewhere.
 
2020-12-16 10:30:45 PM  

Ivo Shandor: IgG4: 40% overfill seems really high. The pumps that dose the product into the vials are incredibly precise, like to the microliter. It's not unusual to overfile by a few percent, you don't want to deal with patients complaining they were shorted, but not 40% That's just dumb.

Look at the link I posted above. Most of the volume is from the saline solution which is added at the clinic, and that alone is enough to make at least 6 doses per vial. When they rated it for only 5 they must have been leaving a large safety margin to account for spillage or measurement errors when it was administered.


If someone doesn't get paid the extra 40%, people are going to jail, maybe get the whole thing shut down.
 
2020-12-16 10:31:57 PM  
For when you want to get 40% more drunk...

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-12-16 10:32:47 PM  

Ivo Shandor: According to https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/downl​oad each dose is 0.3 mL and the vaccine is prepared by diluting the concentrated material in the vial with 1.8 mL of saline solution. So that means that there would be at least 6 doses in there instead of the official 5.


Makes sense. There are probably regulations or industry standards that require a certain amount of overfill to make sure each vial has all 5 doses assuming maximum acceptable error in adding not quite enough saline and then giving heavy doses to the first 4.
 
2020-12-16 10:33:13 PM  

not enough beer: How the fark does this happen? Seriously this is keystone cops type shiat.


Don't worry - mistakes aren't made! Everything is fine and safe. Just trust the most recent thing the government has told you on the topic.

Great news! We have 40% more vaccine! No worries here.
 
2020-12-16 10:35:08 PM  

Ivo Shandor: IgG4: 40% overfill seems really high. The pumps that dose the product into the vials are incredibly precise, like to the microliter. It's not unusual to overfile by a few percent, you don't want to deal with patients complaining they were shorted, but not 40% That's just dumb.

Look at the link I posted above. Most of the volume is from the saline solution which is added at the clinic, and that alone is enough to make at least 6 doses per vial. When they rated it for only 5 they must have been leaving a large safety margin to account for spillage or measurement errors when it was administered.


So experts in the field rated it for 5 dosages because they knew a safety margin was needed....but now those same experts were wrong? But if you question anything else, you're anti-science! These are EXPERTS! Experts aren't wrong ever!
 
2020-12-16 10:35:28 PM  
The dilution with the saline makes sense to me.

This type of error should be a beacon of hope for a faster inoculation but because of the state of the US we can't have nice things.
 
2020-12-16 10:35:39 PM  
I'm confused, shouldn't this be very good news? Like Christmas miracle good.

Except, my State just had our round two shipment slashed by 50%.
 
2020-12-16 10:35:48 PM  
They don't know how much liquid was in the bottle and I'm supposed to trust this thing?
 
2020-12-16 10:39:01 PM  
Just as long as they aren't double-dipping the syringe in there to scrape out the extra dose, it's fine by me.
 
2020-12-16 10:39:30 PM  

NathanAllen: I'm confused, shouldn't this be very good news? Like Christmas miracle good.

Except, my State just had our round two shipment slashed by 50%.


More like 10% if you do the math.
 
2020-12-16 10:39:57 PM  
Oh this will really placate the anti-vax crowd won't it.
 
2020-12-16 10:43:13 PM  
years ago a buddy got a supply of liquid valium from somewhere in NY state. little fold out cardboard containers with multiple glass vials on each side. we would snap the contoured neck of  vial and tap tap tap the juice into a beer. good fun, they were.
 
2020-12-16 10:47:11 PM  
Hey, remember that Mars probe / lander that cratered because half the team used metric and the other half used Imperial.

Good Times, Good Times.
 
2020-12-16 10:48:32 PM  

NathanAllen: I'm confused, shouldn't this be very good news? Like Christmas miracle good.

Except, my State just had our round two shipment slashed by 50%.


Everything related to the virus and the vaccine is bad news. Haven't you been paying attention?
 
2020-12-16 10:49:15 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: Ivo Shandor: IgG4: 40% overfill seems really high. The pumps that dose the product into the vials are incredibly precise, like to the microliter. It's not unusual to overfile by a few percent, you don't want to deal with patients complaining they were shorted, but not 40% That's just dumb.

Look at the link I posted above. Most of the volume is from the saline solution which is added at the clinic, and that alone is enough to make at least 6 doses per vial. When they rated it for only 5 they must have been leaving a large safety margin to account for spillage or measurement errors when it was administered.

So experts in the field rated it for 5 dosages because they knew a safety margin was needed....but now those same experts were wrong? But if you question anything else, you're anti-science! These are EXPERTS! Experts aren't wrong ever!


Just imagine a tech somewhere swinging their arms and saying "I CAN MATH" while all the peer reviewers say "sure, that sounds about right".
 
2020-12-16 10:50:11 PM  
You know that little bit at the bottom of a jar that you would normally just throw out... yeah... that little bit is an extra dose.

While this is good news for many, its also important to understand what it is... desperation, as a nation we need this so badly you may as well crack the vial open and lick it clean
 
2020-12-16 10:50:28 PM  

not enough beer: How the fark does this happen?


On purpose.  They meant to do this.

Daniel Boone's Farm: Normally I would say you are reaching, but it dawned on me this isn't a start up make your own meal at home business going a tad heavy on the mozzarella, this is a pharmaceutical giant. The field that relies on 100% accuracy.


Correct.  100% of their vials must contain enough to make 5 doses.  They absolutely bank on that much being in there.

Nadie_AZ: This doesn't pass the smell test. WTF is going on?


The concept you're mall missing is similar to the concept of a baker's dozen.  If I said if you ever short me a single donut I will cut your fingers off, you would likely start given me 14 donuts.  That way if you're ever one short, whatever.  If you're 2 short, you STILL keep your fingers.  It's not until there's a crazy epic fail of missing 3 donuts that you might possibly get a finger lopped off.  Apply said rationale to vaccines.

This vial contains enough for 5 vaccinations.  What if it contains 4.8 doses and not 5 but the pharmacist has been instructed it is enough for five?  Then hopefully the pharmacist recognizes it and corrects accordingly.  But alternatively it's possibl 4 people get the right amount and the last person will get 0.8 of a dose. Or all 5 people get slightly less than the full dose.  So the risk is the vaccine in actual practice won't be as good as in the studies and if it fails publicly, that's a giant hit to their bottom line.

This passes the smell test perfectly.
 
2020-12-16 10:51:23 PM  

Ivo Shandor: Most of the volume is from the saline solution which is added at the clinic, and that alone is enough to make at least 6 doses per vial. When they rated it for only 5 they must have been leaving a large safety margin to account for spillage or measurement errors when it was administered.


Or idiots who don't know how to dilute a solution...
 
2020-12-16 10:52:20 PM  
This is Hubble space telescope-style miscalculation, seems to me. If that one could happen, then I believe this one could happen.
 
2020-12-16 10:53:20 PM  

Ivo Shandor: IgG4: 40% overfill seems really high. The pumps that dose the product into the vials are incredibly precise, like to the microliter. It's not unusual to overfile by a few percent, you don't want to deal with patients complaining they were shorted, but not 40% That's just dumb.

Look at the link I posted above. Most of the volume is from the saline solution which is added at the clinic, and that alone is enough to make at least 6 doses per vial. When they rated it for only 5 they must have been leaving a large safety margin to account for spillage or measurement errors when it was administered.


This also means that doctors, who are going to be giving thousands of shots, need to make sure they measure each dose EXACTLY. 

Otherwise someone may not get enough for a full dose towards the end of the bottle.
 
2020-12-16 10:57:21 PM  

NathanAllen: I'm confused, shouldn't this be very good news? Like Christmas miracle good.

Except, my State just had our round two shipment slashed by 50%.


It is very good news. It's just that
1) Fark has always been full of Smiths fans,
2) the outgoing president deeply poisoned the well, and
3) the worst thing in multiple generations just happened / is still happening, so people are naturally sceptical.

But really, a manufacturing process had extra tolerance by design to account for human error, and now the humans on the front line are tightening those error bars and saving lives.
 
2020-12-16 10:59:12 PM  
Also, this doesn't seem like a manufacturing decision at all. Some have 5 doses, and other batches have another dose or two extra, so something in their production line isn't set up right. If Pfizer decided to put in extra, which is a reasonable thing to do, you might see an extra 5-10%, but all the batches would average out to that. None of this "5 doses here, 6 over there" crap. That's too much variance, something is wrong in production.

Yet another Pfizer CYA, except this one isn't that big a deal and has a silver lining.

/if there was too little variance, it would also be a point of concern that something is wrong
 
2020-12-16 11:00:17 PM  
Lack of precision seems like a bad quality for pharmaceutical production.
 
2020-12-16 11:01:43 PM  
What do they do with their leftover cocaine?

/asking for a friend
 
2020-12-16 11:01:47 PM  
Jesus Fark, guys

C'mon

The amount of vaccine remaining in the multidose vial after removal of 5 doses can vary, depending on the type of needles and syringes used," Pfizer spokesperson Sharon Castillo told POLITICO. "At this time, we cannot provide a recommendation on the use of the remaining amount of vaccine from each vial. Vaccinators need to consult their institution's policies for the use of multidose vials."
Both Pfizer and FDA said that leftover vaccine from multiple vials should not be mixed, because of the contamination risk.
Former Obama administration acting CMS chief Andy Slavitt tweeted about the potential vaccine wastage on Tuesday and insisted that Pfizer is now submitting paperwork to let pharmacists use the extra doses if they are available.
"I think this is more clever pharmacists than something missed by Pfizer," he told POLITICO.
 
2020-12-16 11:03:33 PM  

kbronsito: Lack of precision seems like a bad quality for pharmaceutical production.


Read what I typed copy pasted below.

They regularly put a little more than the bare minimum because old doctors have the shakes and waste it.

This is good pharmacists finding helping out in a pandemic inoculation.

Pfizer isn't charging more money.

FFS
 
2020-12-16 11:07:28 PM  
Some of this is related to some of the issues that resulted on the e-mark seen on food packages world wide.
 
2020-12-16 11:10:37 PM  

RedVentrue: This has to violate some kind of Federal regulation somewhere.


Because administrators of the shot were worried about the same thing, they were throwing away perfectly good leftovers.

I haven't read about health care giving the extra to other people, but we don't have track of what is going on except for press conference where people are getting the vaccine.

We're relying on FedEx and UPS for delivery estimates this point.
 
2020-12-16 11:13:42 PM  
So basically the covid vaccine is tussen.

Low on vaccine? Put some water in the vital and shake it up. More vaccine!
 
2020-12-16 11:20:26 PM  
This is like that time in the 90's when I ordered some RAM and it came wrapped in a laser printer.
 
2020-12-16 11:21:50 PM  
Sweet, so we can share dirty needles with COVID patients?
 
2020-12-16 11:22:20 PM  
Damn, this chick on CNN sounds disappointed that there might be 6 does instead of 5
 
2020-12-16 11:23:06 PM  
I can picture my doctor, flipping a vial over and pounding her palm on the bottom, as Carly Simon sings Anticipation on the Muzak.
 
2020-12-16 11:23:30 PM  

ketkarsa: Sweet, so we can share dirty needles with COVID patients?


I think that's exactly what they are saying.

Reuse needles between patients until they break off in a deltoid.
 
2020-12-16 11:25:03 PM  
This explication makes perfect sense to me. If a bottle contains a full extra dose or two, why not use it?

A conceivable problem might be if the last dose has proportions that aren't consistent after five uses. If that's not an issue? Go for it.
 
2020-12-16 11:26:51 PM  

NathanAllen: I'm confused, shouldn't this be very good news? Like Christmas miracle good.

Except, my State just had our round two shipment slashed by 50%.


Expect more of that. There's precious little Pfizer vaccine for the US until fall, unless the US government pays them enough to get them to delay their contracts with other countries. The US could've locked down 500 million doses of this vaccine in July but decided to make pharmaceutical companies big against each other instead, and Pfizer declined to do that.
 
2020-12-16 11:26:54 PM  
The news that hospitals may be able to vaccinate more people than expected also creates new complications. Federal officials have carefully managed the supply of vaccine, holding in reserve enough doses for each person who got the first dose to receive a booster shot three weeks later.

Hospitals Discover a Surprise in Their Pfizer Vaccine Deliveries: Extra Doses
 
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