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(Guardian)   What do you mean, why's it got to be built? It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses   (theguardian.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, World Heritage Site, UNESCO, world heritage site, road-building plan, Grant Shapps, International Council on Monuments and Sites, Last month, English Heritage  
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4315 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Dec 2020 at 8:45 PM (18 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



40 Comments     (+0 »)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2020-12-05 5:46:37 PM  
i'm game, we'll see who rusts first
 
2020-12-05 7:05:16 PM  
I have trouble visualizing this. I visited way back in the mid 90s. Took a little van tour. At Stonehenge there were only a couple of other people. There didn't seem to be many cars going by. I guess a big city grew up nearby.
 
2020-12-05 7:37:46 PM  

edmo: I have trouble visualizing this. I visited way back in the mid 90s. Took a little van tour. At Stonehenge there were only a couple of other people. There didn't seem to be many cars going by. I guess a big city grew up nearby.


I've not been, but the A303 is a pretty important east-west link road, and given it's a single carriageway, it's liable to congestion. Just one farmer moving their tractor from one field to another can cause a lot of issues.
 
2020-12-05 8:53:22 PM  
I hope the tunneling doesn't sever any ley lines.  It could have severe consequences.
 
2020-12-05 9:01:10 PM  
A bypass? Are Vogons involved?
 
2020-12-05 9:03:11 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-12-05 9:04:06 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-12-05 9:06:58 PM  
But the plans were on display...
 
2020-12-05 9:07:11 PM  
th.bing.comView Full Size

The Gods smite your car.
 
2020-12-05 9:07:59 PM  
Spinal Tap - All Stonehenge scenes
Youtube STHKFlO-zBw
 
2020-12-05 9:08:04 PM  
WHAT ABOUT THE LITTLE PEOPLE?

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-12-05 9:12:13 PM  
Careful with all that construction.  Demons dwell there.  And banshees live there.  It's a magic place, children dance there to the pipes of pan.  Won't someone think of the children?
 
2020-12-05 9:13:56 PM  
especially after your third heart attack.
 
2020-12-05 9:14:25 PM  

eddie_irvine: But the plans were on display...


That damned leopard...
 
2020-12-05 9:28:43 PM  
Shoulda crossed it with a viaduct.
 
2020-12-05 9:42:31 PM  
Spend millions building a tunnel so you don't disturb the historical site?  That will teach you.  

No good deed goes unpunished.
 
2020-12-05 9:47:12 PM  
Apathetic bloody country, I've no sympathy
 
2020-12-05 9:57:47 PM  
Close the road in at least one direction and fix the the one 2 km north and the one 3 km to the south.  Problem solved forever. That road is used because it is there, not because it is the best route for most of the traffic if someone properly planned the roads in that area which apparently hasn't been done properly in centuries.
 
2020-12-05 10:38:00 PM  

DON.MAC: Close the road in at least one direction and fix the the one 2 km north and the one 3 km to the south.  Problem solved forever. That road is used because it is there, not because it is the best route for most of the traffic if someone properly planned the roads in that area which apparently hasn't been done properly in centuries.


You have to bear in mind that Tories are in charge of the UK right now. FTA:

Shapps accepted that the development would cause harm to the 4,000-year-old Unesco world heritage site, but concluded that it would not be substantial and would be outweighed by the public benefit.
Shapps overruled a report by five planning inspectors who recommended withholding consent for the scheme. The road improvements are intended to widen traffic bottlenecks on a major route to south-west England.


So essentially, it's a bad idea, but Tory C*nts are for it, so f*ck your feelings.

I bet some Tory c*nt will be enriching themself from this project, too - they've missed a beat if they haven't been completely corrupt assholes here.
 
2020-12-05 11:00:06 PM  
Perhaps they can use the tunnel made by that cult during the filming of the Rockumentary Help!
 
2020-12-05 11:15:52 PM  
This is what it looks like on Google Maps. It looks like there's already unfortunately been quite a bit of development around it. That's unfortunate, but unless I'm missing something, wouldn't an underground road be better than an above ground one? The above ground section could be demolished and returned to a normal appearance and that would be a measured improvement.

I get the point that there could be artifacts underground, but we have the technology to look before we dig...it's certainly possible to use underground imaging devices or just excavate the entire path beforehand and look for anything that might be of interest.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-12-05 11:32:53 PM  
I'm just here to thank subby for keeping my creator alive in some small way.
 
2020-12-05 11:40:31 PM  
Why do we call those structures buildings? Shouldn't they be called builts?
 
2020-12-05 11:42:32 PM  
Has Arthur made a Dent?
 
2020-12-06 12:52:23 AM  
"As road transport is the single largest source of carbon emissions in the UK, this is insane. Building more roads simply leads to more traffic and carbon."

Fark user imageView Full Size


That is not how it works.
 
2020-12-06 1:10:16 AM  
khatores:

I get the point that there could be artifacts underground, but we have the technology to look before we dig...it's certainly possible to use underground imaging devices or just excavate the entire path beforehand and look for anything that might be of interest.

What tehcnology would that be? Tunnel Boring Machines work deeper than the ground penetrating radar work and some of the stuff in that area is quite deep.

The only reason to do this project the way it is being done is political grift.
 
2020-12-06 1:31:11 AM  

iron de havilland: DON.MAC: Close the road in at least one direction and fix the the one 2 km north and the one 3 km to the south.  Problem solved forever. That road is used because it is there, not because it is the best route for most of the traffic if someone properly planned the roads in that area which apparently hasn't been done properly in centuries.

You have to bear in mind that Tories are in charge of the UK right now. FTA:

Shapps accepted that the development would cause harm to the 4,000-year-old Unesco world heritage site, but concluded that it would not be substantial and would be outweighed by the public benefit.
Shapps overruled a report by five planning inspectors who recommended withholding consent for the scheme. The road improvements are intended to widen traffic bottlenecks on a major route to south-west England.

So essentially, it's a bad idea, but Tory C*nts are for it, so f*ck your feelings.

I bet some Tory c*nt will be enriching themself from this project, too - they've missed a beat if they haven't been completely corrupt assholes here.


You certainly have the right muppet in chief for ignoring the advice of a panel of 5 experts in favour of what was written on the back of the plain brown envelope stuffed with cash he found on his desk.

I'm still in awe about hunting parties being exempt from the Rule Of Six. I honestly thought that was pretty brazen, even for the tories.
 
2020-12-06 1:42:27 AM  

DON.MAC: khatores:

I get the point that there could be artifacts underground, but we have the technology to look before we dig...it's certainly possible to use underground imaging devices or just excavate the entire path beforehand and look for anything that might be of interest.

What tehcnology would that be? Tunnel Boring Machines work deeper than the ground penetrating radar work and some of the stuff in that area is quite deep.


How deep would this be going? Is there evidence that there could even be any kind of artifacts that far down?

Stonehenge is supposedly from about 3000 BC but it wasn't excavated...it's been above ground the entire time and those are some heavy-ass rocks. It seems like the geology of this area doesn't really promote a lot of subsidence or alluvial deposits. Although, maybe the Stonehenge builders put a sturdy foundation in place and other things nearby could have subsided more easily.

I think the best way to handle this would be to GPR that path that the tunnel would be taking, and then just bore slowly. Set up some laser survey equipment on the stones to monitor shifting. They could also use GPR in front of the boring machine to anticipate anything they might run into before they bore right through it. That would increase time and expense, but it might be worth it.

The only reason to do this project the way it is being done is political grift.

Is that the only choice here? That may well play into it, but what about the benefits of not having a congested highway within view of Stonehenge? That section that was road could be converted back to grass.
 
2020-12-06 2:00:22 AM  
"A small number of police officers, along with English Heritage officials and security guards, maintained a low-key presence and did not try to halt the mass trespass."

What? No tear gas, riot gear and rubber bullets? They were trespassing!  Thats breaking the law!
 
2020-12-06 2:07:14 AM  

aagrajag: I'm just here to thank subby for keeping my creator alive in some small way.


Agreed.
 
2020-12-06 3:01:02 AM  

khatores: DON.MAC: khatores:


How deep would this be going? Is there evidence that there could even be any kind of artifacts that far down?

Stonehenge is supposedly from about 3000 BC but it wasn't excavated...it's been above ground the entire time and those are some heavy-ass rocks. It seems like the geology of this area doesn't really promote a lot of subsidence or alluvial deposits. Although, maybe the Stonehenge builders put a sturdy foundation in place and other things nearby could have subsided more easily.


When they do dig around there, they find stuff and it is often very deep.  The tunnel isn't going to be very deep and it will be too close to the active area which seems to grow every time someone starts looking at the outer edges.


I think the best way to handle this would be to GPR that path that the tunnel would be taking, and then just bore slowly. Set up some laser survey equipment on the stones to monitor shifting. They could also use GPR in front of the boring machine to anticipate anything they might run into before they bore right through it. That would increase time and expense, but it might be worth it.

The entrance to the tunnels will disrupt plenty of stuff that no one knows about yet.  It isn't the tunnel exactly that is the problem, it is the way the surface road gets into the tunnel and all the associated escape tunnels and everything else that makes it mind boggingling stupid

The only reason to do this project the way it is being done is political grift.

Is that the only choice here? That may well play into it, but what about the benefits of not having a congested highway within view of Stonehenge? That section that was road could be converted back to grass.


Yes, it grift the only choice.  Someone is getting paid and they will get paid well.  The road has been getting more traffic for decades and it is the major road because it is less congested than the other choices which aren't far away.  If they fixed both of those roads and made a new road through some farms, this problem could go away.  That would be much cheaper as well and not have the problems of wrecks in tunnels. No country in the world that has to have tunnels would ever even consider building this based on the traffic safety issue.   They are talking about 20,000 vehicles a day so this isn't going to fix any perceived problem long term and will only introduce more long term problems as more cars try to get funneled to "the new good road".  The cost is insane as well at £11 per car per day for the next 30 years.
 
2020-12-06 3:23:15 AM  

DON.MAC: The entrance to the tunnels will disrupt plenty of stuff that no one knows about yet. It isn't the tunnel exactly that is the problem, it is the way the surface road gets into the tunnel and all the associated escape tunnels and everything else that makes it mind boggingling stupid


I guess that does make sense...there's a lot of additional stuff that goes along with a tunnel road - electrical, firefighting stuff, ventilation stacks, service tunnels, escape tunnels...etc. It probably has a bigger footprint than most people realize.

The only reason to do this project the way it is being done is political grift.

Is that the only choice here? That may well play into it, but what about the benefits of not having a congested highway within view of Stonehenge? That section that was road could be converted back to grass.

Yes, it grift the only choice. Someone is getting paid and they will get paid well. The road has been getting more traffic for decades and it is the major road because it is less congested than the other choices which aren't far away. If they fixed both of those roads and made a new road through some farms, this problem could go away. That would be much cheaper as well and not have the problems of wrecks in tunnels. No country in the world that has to have tunnels would ever even consider building this based on the traffic safety issue. They are talking about 20,000 vehicles a day so this isn't going to fix any perceived problem long term and will only introduce more long term problems as more cars try to get funneled to "the new good road". The cost is insane as well at £11 per car per day for the next 30 years.


Zooming out a bit on the map, it looks like this stretch of A330 isn't even really necessary. They could just close off the section between A360 and Amesbury Bypass and send people north on A360 around. It's only a detour of a few miles.
 
2020-12-06 6:14:40 AM  

khatores: DON.MAC: The entrance to the tunnels will disrupt plenty of stuff that no one knows about yet. It isn't the tunnel exactly that is the problem, it is the way the surface road gets into the tunnel and all the associated escape tunnels and everything else that makes it mind boggingling stupid

I guess that does make sense...there's a lot of additional stuff that goes along with a tunnel road - electrical, firefighting stuff, ventilation stacks, service tunnels, escape tunnels...etc. It probably has a bigger footprint than most people realize.

The only reason to do this project the way it is being done is political grift.

Is that the only choice here? That may well play into it, but what about the benefits of not having a congested highway within view of Stonehenge? That section that was road could be converted back to grass.

Yes, it grift the only choice. Someone is getting paid and they will get paid well. The road has been getting more traffic for decades and it is the major road because it is less congested than the other choices which aren't far away. If they fixed both of those roads and made a new road through some farms, this problem could go away. That would be much cheaper as well and not have the problems of wrecks in tunnels. No country in the world that has to have tunnels would ever even consider building this based on the traffic safety issue. They are talking about 20,000 vehicles a day so this isn't going to fix any perceived problem long term and will only introduce more long term problems as more cars try to get funneled to "the new good road". The cost is insane as well at £11 per car per day for the next 30 years.

Zooming out a bit on the map, it looks like this stretch of A330 isn't even really necessary. They could just close off the section between A360 and Amesbury Bypass and send people north on A360 around. It's only a detour of a few miles.


What you are proposing is to send the traffic from the main route into Devon and Cornwall with all the holiday traffic that entails through Salisbury. That is going to make traffic much worse and if you ever travelled through Baldock before the A505 was routed around it you know what this level of traffic would mean. You can't route the traffic through the M4 then down the M5 as that is where all the Wales traffic is going and the M4 is busy enough as it is. You can't send the traffic down along the coast as you hit Portsmouth, the New Forest and many AONB so you can't expand the roads.

Putting in a tunnel was the more expensive but less hassle option of a much needed road expansion. This road is Devon and Cornwall's link to the outside world and it needs to be duel carriageway all the way, even more than the A47/A17 in Norfolk, Cambridgeshire and Lincolnshire. If the road isn't duelled then Devon and Cornwell will be an economic blackspot.

You can't bypass south because of Boscombe Downs testing site and going far enough north to miss Stonehenge means cutting it through plenty of villages and displacing tens if not hundreds of people.
 
2020-12-06 7:00:03 AM  
Carriageway?
Why can't the British learn English?
And drive on the right side of the road.
 
2020-12-06 7:43:07 AM  

Norfolking Chance: What you are proposing is to send the traffic from the main route into Devon and Cornwall with all the holiday traffic that entails through Salisbury. That is going to make traffic much worse and if you ever travelled through Baldock before the A505 was routed around it you know what this level of traffic would mean. You can't route the traffic through the M4 then down the M5 as that is where all the Wales traffic is going and the M4 is busy enough as it is. You can't send the traffic down along the coast as you hit Portsmouth, the New Forest and many AONB so you can't expand the roads.


The idea is to move the traffic closer to Sailsbury which will have to happen anyway in the future. Of course following any existing road there has the same problem of hitting ancient sites.  They will have to fix A36 around the south of Sailsbury eventually. Updating the A303 will accelerate that need.

The new tunnel will end up moving far more local traffic and in 5 years after it is finished, it will be worse than it is now.  You can relocate lots of houses for a billion pounds and even more farmland. With the geology and locations of ancient rivers, I don't see how they will get it done any where close to the budget.  The military bases won't be anything like their current state in two decades and they are crown land that often can't have low level redevelopment due to past uses which makes them prime candidates to run new modern roads through them.
 
2020-12-06 9:13:21 AM  

Norfolking Chance: khatores: DON.MAC: The entrance to the tunnels will disrupt plenty of stuff that no one knows about yet. It isn't the tunnel exactly that is the problem, it is the way the surface road gets into the tunnel and all the associated escape tunnels and everything else that makes it mind boggingling stupid

I guess that does make sense...there's a lot of additional stuff that goes along with a tunnel road - electrical, firefighting stuff, ventilation stacks, service tunnels, escape tunnels...etc. It probably has a bigger footprint than most people realize.

The only reason to do this project the way it is being done is political grift.

Is that the only choice here? That may well play into it, but what about the benefits of not having a congested highway within view of Stonehenge? That section that was road could be converted back to grass.

Yes, it grift the only choice. Someone is getting paid and they will get paid well. The road has been getting more traffic for decades and it is the major road because it is less congested than the other choices which aren't far away. If they fixed both of those roads and made a new road through some farms, this problem could go away. That would be much cheaper as well and not have the problems of wrecks in tunnels. No country in the world that has to have tunnels would ever even consider building this based on the traffic safety issue. They are talking about 20,000 vehicles a day so this isn't going to fix any perceived problem long term and will only introduce more long term problems as more cars try to get funneled to "the new good road". The cost is insane as well at £11 per car per day for the next 30 years.

Zooming out a bit on the map, it looks like this stretch of A330 isn't even really necessary. They could just close off the section between A360 and Amesbury Bypass and send people north on A360 around. It's only a detour of a few miles.

What you are proposing is to send the traffic from the main route into Devon and Cornwall with all the holiday traffic that entails through Salisbury. That is going to make traffic much worse and if you ever travelled through Baldock before the A505 was routed around it you know what this level of traffic would mean. You can't route the traffic through the M4 then down the M5 as that is where all the Wales traffic is going and the M4 is busy enough as it is. You can't send the traffic down along the coast as you hit Portsmouth, the New Forest and many AONB so you can't expand the roads.

Putting in a tunnel was the more expensive but less hassle option of a much needed road expansion. This road is Devon and Cornwall's link to the outside world and it needs to be duel carriageway all the way, even more than the A47/A17 in Norfolk, Cambridgeshire and Lincolnshire. If the road isn't duelled then Devon and Cornwell will be an economic blackspot.

You can't bypass south because of Boscombe Downs testing site and going far enough north to miss Stonehenge means cutting it through plenty of villages and displacing tens if not hundreds of people.


One side: The tunnel must be built! Build the tunnel!

Other side: You'll bore through the bodies of the ancient Druids buried there!

I'm uncertain as to how to proceed...
 
2020-12-06 9:31:43 AM  

DON.MAC: When they do dig around there, they find stuff and it is often very deep.  The tunnel isn't going to be very deep and it will be too close to the active area which seems to grow every time someone starts looking at the outer edges.


And what's really lost, that we haven't found before? Are we going to find pieces of Excalibur, or more pieces of flint? I'm all for a reasonable amount of preservation and understanding of history but you can't turn the whole country into a museum, and Neolithic history is hard to piece together because of the lack of anything written.
 
2020-12-06 10:20:32 AM  

farkeruk: DON.MAC: When they do dig around there, they find stuff and it is often very deep.  The tunnel isn't going to be very deep and it will be too close to the active area which seems to grow every time someone starts looking at the outer edges.

And what's really lost, that we haven't found before? Are we going to find pieces of Excalibur, or more pieces of flint? I'm all for a reasonable amount of preservation and understanding of history but you can't turn the whole country into a museum, and Neolithic history is hard to piece together because of the lack of anything written.


You make a good point there. I think the work should be done carefully with archaeologists on hand - and maybe they could use a cut-and-cover method to uncover anything before proceeding.

However if the people who actually created all of this were around today, they would likely not be telling us to forego needed development - being humans, they would understand. While it's important to retain information about the past, it shouldn't hold things up indefinitely. If future generations continue to take the "preserve everything" attitude, Earth will be one big museum. There will be no room for any new development because everything will be a historic building, cemetery or ruin.

As for the corruption angle, that should be investigated...people in government should not profit from self-dealing and conflicts of interest, whether they're in the UK, US or anywhere else.
 
2020-12-06 3:43:20 PM  
Most of that area should have somewhere between a foot and 6 foot of soil added since works started in that area at least 5 millennium ago.  More in the valleys, less on the hilltops.  The people of that era were known to dig more than 10 ft down for unknown reasons at the time.  A proper done cut and cover might not be a bad way to build it but it could take a decade to do it with the associated archeology.  I did look into it for a report decade ago for as part of civicl engineering class report.  It appears not much has changed in 3 decades except the price will now be above two billion pounds when it is done and far more people are using the roads M-Th yet peak seasonal tourist levels seem the same.

The current plan is going to run into most of the same problems as the Mullum Mullum Tunnel in Victoria. It was built to protect some frogs.  All those frogs are now gone.
 
2020-12-06 7:50:25 PM  
By the way, you can put things IN the thing your aunt gave you that you don't know what it is.
Which is convenient since it follows you everywhere and you can't get rid of it.

/nothing is obscure on fark?
 
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