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(Twitter)   Pelosi is scientifically settling for a stimulus bill that will scientifically get people food on the table even though it is scientifically worth $1.3T less than what Democrats previously asked for through scientific analysis. Science   (twitter.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, shot  
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1760 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Dec 2020 at 6:20 PM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-12-04 9:11:36 PM  

Stibium: austerity101: Abracapocalypse: OhioUGrad: At this point, might as well have Pelosi pass bills in the House to exempt KY from receiving any federal money and anything else they can do to punish KY. Ky voted to punish the country, drive them into a further shiathole than they already are!

LOL I guess "fark u" to all of us who did vote for the dumbass democratic challenger the stupid democratic party put up against Mitch? I voted straight ticket dem, not much else I can do as an unemployed, broke, and soon to be homeless high-risk person. Go fark yourself.

p.s. if someone wnats to give me the money to move somewhere better i'm here for it, until then stfu about people in Kentucky

I mean, this how sanctions work, though.  Someone innocent will get hurt.  Sucks if it's you.

Meanwhile people in this very thread seem to believe it's not ok for a single American to go one more second without stimulus.


I desperately need stimulus, though I also acknowledge I'm not one of the hardest hit--I still have a roof over my head, and I'm still getting (the bare minimum in) unemployment.  But I'd rather get nothing else, ever, if it means that Republicans don't get their OSHA-hobbling measures.
 
2020-12-04 9:12:34 PM  

Stibium: austerity101: Abracapocalypse: OhioUGrad: At this point, might as well have Pelosi pass bills in the House to exempt KY from receiving any federal money and anything else they can do to punish KY. Ky voted to punish the country, drive them into a further shiathole than they already are!

LOL I guess "fark u" to all of us who did vote for the dumbass democratic challenger the stupid democratic party put up against Mitch? I voted straight ticket dem, not much else I can do as an unemployed, broke, and soon to be homeless high-risk person. Go fark yourself.

p.s. if someone wnats to give me the money to move somewhere better i'm here for it, until then stfu about people in Kentucky

I mean, this how sanctions work, though.  Someone innocent will get hurt.  Sucks if it's you.

Meanwhile people in this very thread seem to believe it's not ok for a single American to go one more second without stimulus.


Yeah, there sure are a lot of "progressives" in here wondering why the Democrats didn't act sooner, and also simultaneously why didn't the Democrats walk away instead of compromising
 
2020-12-04 9:19:01 PM  

Gyrfalcon: eddie_irvine: Gyrfalcon: eddie_irvine: This is a shiat bill, nothing but failed supply side economics. She should walk away.

Because nothing at all is much better than something! People can eat principles for Christmas!

It is nothing. It's just anothe transfer of (future) taxpayer money to millionaires and billionaires. The regular person gets nothing out of this.

Start marching, Mao.


Are you a Republican?  If not, why are you hurling insults like you are one?  Act like an adult.
 
2020-12-04 9:21:01 PM  
I see a lot of "Democrats" in here believing Nancy did the right thing by *checks notes* capitulating to Republicans for a package even smaller than they negotiated with Mnuchin 2 months ago.
 
2020-12-04 9:23:26 PM  

Znuh: You can biatch about Pelosi all you want; everything we're experiencing is entirely on McConnell's shoulders. How many drafts of this have we had? All refused by Dicknose McRusskie?


If you tally up the most harmful and longest-lasting government actions of the last four years, you will realize that while Donald Trump was playing at being president, the real president of the United States was Mitch McConnell.
 
2020-12-04 9:28:40 PM  

Cornelius Dribble: Znuh: You can biatch about Pelosi all you want; everything we're experiencing is entirely on McConnell's shoulders. How many drafts of this have we had? All refused by Dicknose McRusskie?

If you tally up the most harmful and longest-lasting government actions of the last four years, you will realize that while Donald Trump was playing at being president, the real president of the United States was Mitch McConnell.


What is with people trying to rehabilitate Republican presidents? George W Bush wasn't evil; Dick Cheney was the mastermind. Trump wasn't bad; it was Mitch McConnell.

Stop rehabilitating shiat presidents.
 
2020-12-04 9:29:56 PM  

ReaverZ: I Like Bread: Corvus: So that is worth millions of poor people to be thrown out of their homes?

You can also stop pretending to speak for the poor. No one is buying it.

No, you stop pretending you give a fark. You are fraud, spouting off bs one lines trying to get imaginary internet points. Purpurosea at least has something to say and an argument to make. You are just thread shiatting.


Of course you have nothing better than "I'm rubber and you're glue," you projecting one-dimensional hack. Don't worry your little head about what happens when "it all falls apart" because if it comes to that, people like me will be taking back by force what we're owed. You'll either be the powder-faced aristocrat getting the guillotine or the weak capitulator, seeking an absence of conflict rather than a presence of justice, that we'll trample on the way there.

You're clearly a FYIGM drone trapped inside MLK's White Moderate. Work out your inner conflict on your own time and leave us out of it.
 
2020-12-04 9:34:07 PM  

misanthropicsob: I see a lot of "Democrats" in here believing Nancy did the right thing by *checks notes* capitulating to Republicans for a package even smaller than they negotiated with Mnuchin 2 months ago.


I know you kook lefties pride yourself on your ignorance and stupidity, Sob, but "Mnuchin" is not just a misspelling of McConnell.
 
2020-12-04 9:37:15 PM  

Jiggatron69: Conqueror of Bread: Wanderlusting: Conqueror of Bread: Wanderlusting: AurizenDarkstar: If you're serious with this, then get out there and start killing people.

I mean, you're arguing that you're loaded for bear and willing to kill to defend your right.  Well, do it instead of talking about it. You obviously believe that you have the strength and arms to do it.

Also, smarting your own comments is the sign of an insecure person.  Just thought you might want to know.

This. Last time I checked the protestors in Honk Kong weren't waiting for people to join them. They just did what they thought was right. 

If you started wheeling out guillotines and started beheading business owners in the streets, I'd have a lot more respect for you than watching you piss and moan for the Nth time about how Wall Street gets the help and you're still sucking your thumbs.

There's nothing - I repeat, NOTHING, worse than someone who threatens big things, big changes, and disruption and then hides like a coward when it's time to stand up.

Make it happen. Stand opposed or shut the fark up.

One person doesn't make a revolution happen. It takes millions.

Will you join a movement to change things? Or just screech your feelings of impotence at those who say we ought to?

Id reccomend joining a union or a socialist group in your area. Maybe an IWW chapter. You ought to start strategizing how to implement socialist systems in your local area. Mutual aid and local production are important aspects of any revolutionary foundation.

I'm in favor of the status quo because I benefit handsomely from it. I like my nice, comfy home in the suburbs. I like my job where I get health insurance, a generous salary, and plenty of vacation time. I like the fact that my US Passport (pre-Covid) allowed me to travel most places on Earth with simply a landing visa. I like the fact that I went to college on an academic scholarship that I earned by working my ass off for it. I like that I have a couple of cars, a couple of kids, and that I am working for their future. But, as anyone with kids will tell you, my progeny comes first and my family comes first. If your policies endanger my family, I'm not going to support them. 

Many on the left would vilify me for living the American dream and earning what is rightfully mine, and thus, I don't feel that a "revolution" is necessary. Others would strongly disagree. I'm simply saying if you're going to threaten pitchforks and torches and "eating the rich," I'd suggest you start acting on these proclamations lest you be seen as weak in the face of your "oppressors."

Oh nvm. I thought I was talking to a working class person.

You're bourgioisie. Not worth wasting time on.

He took a long time to basically say "I got mine so frak you". What an unsatisfying conclusion.  Almost as bad as Season 8 of GoT


Yeah, he's clearly just a conservative reactionary. But the very fact that he is claims to be a vocal Democrat should give many in this thread pause.

This is the class the democratic leadership rhetorically ponders to, while serving the interests of the largest international corporations.

But he's got a house in the 'burbs so fark the poors.
 
2020-12-04 9:37:41 PM  

Mr.Insightful: misanthropicsob: I see a lot of "Democrats" in here believing Nancy did the right thing by *checks notes* capitulating to Republicans for a package even smaller than they negotiated with Mnuchin 2 months ago.

I know you kook lefties pride yourself on your ignorance and stupidity, Sob, but "Mnuchin" is not just a misspelling of McConnell.


I know you're used to being wrong, so this feeling should be familiar. Trump and Mnuchin were the ones who offered the $1.8T package they had initially worked through with Pelosi before she turned her back on it.

McConnell was, supposedly, not behind it at that point.
 
2020-12-04 9:44:39 PM  

qorkfiend: leeksfromchichis: qorkfiend:

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 500x331]

An anemic one time payment is the glowing bit.

The rest of the anglerfish is corporate immunity from lawsuits.

Right. So, nothing then?


Nothing is preferable to death and destruction caused directly by corporation security being legally protected with a tiny garnish of nowhere near enough money months late and being expected to eat the DNC's ass out like it was full of ice cream.

But what I actually would like to see is the Democrats not "compromising" with nation destroying pro-corporate stuff and go back to the party of the people they used to be before my lifetime.
 
2020-12-04 9:45:21 PM  

Conqueror of Bread: Jiggatron69: Conqueror of Bread: Wanderlusting: Conqueror of Bread: Wanderlusting: AurizenDarkstar: If you're serious with this, then get out there and start killing people.

I mean, you're arguing that you're loaded for bear and willing to kill to defend your right.  Well, do it instead of talking about it. You obviously believe that you have the strength and arms to do it.

Also, smarting your own comments is the sign of an insecure person.  Just thought you might want to know.

This. Last time I checked the protestors in Honk Kong weren't waiting for people to join them. They just did what they thought was right. 

If you started wheeling out guillotines and started beheading business owners in the streets, I'd have a lot more respect for you than watching you piss and moan for the Nth time about how Wall Street gets the help and you're still sucking your thumbs.

There's nothing - I repeat, NOTHING, worse than someone who threatens big things, big changes, and disruption and then hides like a coward when it's time to stand up.

Make it happen. Stand opposed or shut the fark up.

One person doesn't make a revolution happen. It takes millions.

Will you join a movement to change things? Or just screech your feelings of impotence at those who say we ought to?

Id reccomend joining a union or a socialist group in your area. Maybe an IWW chapter. You ought to start strategizing how to implement socialist systems in your local area. Mutual aid and local production are important aspects of any revolutionary foundation.

I'm in favor of the status quo because I benefit handsomely from it. I like my nice, comfy home in the suburbs. I like my job where I get health insurance, a generous salary, and plenty of vacation time. I like the fact that my US Passport (pre-Covid) allowed me to travel most places on Earth with simply a landing visa. I like the fact that I went to college on an academic scholarship that I earned by working my ass off for it. I like that I have a couple of cars, a couple of kids, and that I am working for their future. But, as anyone with kids will tell you, my progeny comes first and my family comes first. If your policies endanger my family, I'm not going to support them. 

Many on the left would vilify me for living the American dream and earning what is rightfully mine, and thus, I don't feel that a "revolution" is necessary. Others would strongly disagree. I'm simply saying if you're going to threaten pitchforks and torches and "eating the rich," I'd suggest you start acting on these proclamations lest you be seen as weak in the face of your "oppressors."

Oh nvm. I thought I was talking to a working class person.

You're bourgioisie. Not worth wasting time on.

He took a long time to basically say "I got mine so frak you". What an unsatisfying conclusion.  Almost as bad as Season 8 of GoT

Yeah, he's clearly just a conservative reactionary. But the very fact that he is claims to be a vocal Democrat should give many in this thread pause.

This is the class the democratic leadership rhetorically ponders to, while serving the interests of the largest international corporations.

But he's got a house in the 'burbs so fark the poors.


Conceding the suburbs to the GOP is an odd strategy.
 
2020-12-04 9:47:05 PM  

leeksfromchichis: qorkfiend: leeksfromchichis: qorkfiend:

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 500x331]

An anemic one time payment is the glowing bit.

The rest of the anglerfish is corporate immunity from lawsuits.

Right. So, nothing then?

Nothing is preferable to death and destruction caused directly by corporation security being legally protected with a tiny garnish of nowhere near enough money months late and being expected to eat the DNC's ass out like it was full of ice cream.

But what I actually would like to see is the Democrats not "compromising" with nation destroying pro-corporate stuff and go back to the party of the people they used to be before my lifetime.


Oh, I didn't know you had a plan to jam a Democratic wish list through a Republican majority Senate. Seems strange to keep such a thing a secret, though. What have you been waiting for?
 
2020-12-04 9:48:19 PM  

Cagey B: vpb: What's asinine about it?  There are a lot of people who need help and would have gotten nothing if she hadn't compromised.

A lot of people who can't be bothered to vote in down-ticket races will be along shortly to explain how Pelosi should have used mystical parliamentary procedures to somehow enact a bill without the Senate for reasons.


ALL my votes are down ticket. My vote for POTUS doesn't mean a damn thing, so I leave it blank.
 
2020-12-04 9:49:37 PM  

misanthropicsob: Mr.Insightful: misanthropicsob: I see a lot of "Democrats" in here believing Nancy did the right thing by *checks notes* capitulating to Republicans for a package even smaller than they negotiated with Mnuchin 2 months ago.

I know you kook lefties pride yourself on your ignorance and stupidity, Sob, but "Mnuchin" is not just a misspelling of McConnell.

I know you're used to being wrong, so this feeling should be familiar. Trump and Mnuchin were the ones who offered the $1.8T package they had initially worked through with Pelosi before she turned her back on it.

McConnell was, supposedly, not behind it at that point.


Ah, so at least you recognize that McConnell wasn't behind the package, and probably wouldn't have passed it.

If I didn't know you better, I'd think it rather adorable that you think that 1.8T offer without McConnell's signoff was actually on the up-and-up, given how often Republicans lie, SOB. It's like you really truly want to take the right wing at their word. But we all know that the real reason why you are pretending that offer was real and not bullshiat, is because you are doing your damndest to shiat on Democrats, especially if it helps Republicans. Accelerationism and all that.

People who aren't assholes like you, Sob, know that the final numbers aren't the starting numbers. Well, you do too. You're just lying, as typical.
 
2020-12-04 9:50:48 PM  

qorkfiend: Conqueror of Bread: Jiggatron69: Conqueror of Bread: Wanderlusting: Conqueror of Bread: Wanderlusting: AurizenDarkstar: If you're serious with this, then get out there and start killing people.

I mean, you're arguing that you're loaded for bear and willing to kill to defend your right.  Well, do it instead of talking about it. You obviously believe that you have the strength and arms to do it.

Also, smarting your own comments is the sign of an insecure person.  Just thought you might want to know.

This. Last time I checked the protestors in Honk Kong weren't waiting for people to join them. They just did what they thought was right. 

If you started wheeling out guillotines and started beheading business owners in the streets, I'd have a lot more respect for you than watching you piss and moan for the Nth time about how Wall Street gets the help and you're still sucking your thumbs.

There's nothing - I repeat, NOTHING, worse than someone who threatens big things, big changes, and disruption and then hides like a coward when it's time to stand up.

Make it happen. Stand opposed or shut the fark up.

One person doesn't make a revolution happen. It takes millions.

Will you join a movement to change things? Or just screech your feelings of impotence at those who say we ought to?

Id reccomend joining a union or a socialist group in your area. Maybe an IWW chapter. You ought to start strategizing how to implement socialist systems in your local area. Mutual aid and local production are important aspects of any revolutionary foundation.

I'm in favor of the status quo because I benefit handsomely from it. I like my nice, comfy home in the suburbs. I like my job where I get health insurance, a generous salary, and plenty of vacation time. I like the fact that my US Passport (pre-Covid) allowed me to travel most places on Earth with simply a landing visa. I like the fact that I went to college on an academic scholarship that I earned by working my ass off for it. I like that I have a couple of cars, a couple of kids, and that I am working for their future. But, as anyone with kids will tell you, my progeny comes first and my family comes first. If your policies endanger my family, I'm not going to support them. 

Many on the left would vilify me for living the American dream and earning what is rightfully mine, and thus, I don't feel that a "revolution" is necessary. Others would strongly disagree. I'm simply saying if you're going to threaten pitchforks and torches and "eating the rich," I'd suggest you start acting on these proclamations lest you be seen as weak in the face of your "oppressors."

Oh nvm. I thought I was talking to a working class person.

You're bourgioisie. Not worth wasting time on.

He took a long time to basically say "I got mine so frak you". What an unsatisfying conclusion.  Almost as bad as Season 8 of GoT

Yeah, he's clearly just a conservative reactionary. But the very fact that he is claims to be a vocal Democrat should give many in this thread pause.

This is the class the democratic leadership rhetorically ponders to, while serving the interests of the largest international corporations.

But he's got a house in the 'burbs so fark the poors.

Conceding the suburbs to the GOP is an odd strategy.


Electoralism is a failed strategy.

The democrats aren't going to help the working class, regardless of the way the burbs vote.

This is a simple matter of class contradictions within capitalism.

Appealing to the "needs" of the comfortable and reasonably wealthy alienates the working class.

The democrats have done this before and it destroyed their electoral chances.

The working class has the numbers. The party ought to appeal to them.

But please proceed to pander to the wealthy. That's sure to work out well in '22 and '24.
 
2020-12-04 9:53:35 PM  

Mr.Insightful: misanthropicsob: Mr.Insightful: misanthropicsob: I see a lot of "Democrats" in here believing Nancy did the right thing by *checks notes* capitulating to Republicans for a package even smaller than they negotiated with Mnuchin 2 months ago.

I know you kook lefties pride yourself on your ignorance and stupidity, Sob, but "Mnuchin" is not just a misspelling of McConnell.

I know you're used to being wrong, so this feeling should be familiar. Trump and Mnuchin were the ones who offered the $1.8T package they had initially worked through with Pelosi before she turned her back on it.

McConnell was, supposedly, not behind it at that point.

Ah, so at least you recognize that McConnell wasn't behind the package, and probably wouldn't have passed it.

If I didn't know you better, I'd think it rather adorable that you think that 1.8T offer without McConnell's signoff was actually on the up-and-up, given how often Republicans lie, SOB. It's like you really truly want to take the right wing at their word. But we all know that the real reason why you are pretending that offer was real and not bullshiat, is because you are doing your damndest to shiat on Democrats, especially if it helps Republicans. Accelerationism and all that.

People who aren't assholes like you, Sob, know that the final numbers aren't the starting numbers. Well, you do too. You're just lying, as typical.


If McConnell wouldn't have passed it anyway, why are the democrats preemptively rolling over like cowards?

Because their interests are the same as the Republicans. Their donors and their peers are the wealthy and the corporate internationalists.

Otherwise, why not craft a bill which would show how much they want to do for the working class?

Neither would pass, but one would avoid this very back and forth between cheerleaders and actual working class people.
 
2020-12-04 9:58:33 PM  
It's a shiat package and everyone knows it.

Not nearly enough and it gives away the farm in terms of preventing suing employers with unsafe practices.

Dems are trying to save face by declaring it is "a good start" but it is not.

And yeah, Mitch McConnell is the Tucker to blame here.

Not so much for her inability to get something better but in her continued insistence that the GOP are good faith partners in gov't.
 
2020-12-04 10:04:39 PM  

Conqueror of Bread: Mr.Insightful: misanthropicsob: Mr.Insightful: misanthropicsob: I see a lot of "Democrats" in here believing Nancy did the right thing by *checks notes* capitulating to Republicans for a package even smaller than they negotiated with Mnuchin 2 months ago.

I know you kook lefties pride yourself on your ignorance and stupidity, Sob, but "Mnuchin" is not just a misspelling of McConnell.

I know you're used to being wrong, so this feeling should be familiar. Trump and Mnuchin were the ones who offered the $1.8T package they had initially worked through with Pelosi before she turned her back on it.

McConnell was, supposedly, not behind it at that point.

Ah, so at least you recognize that McConnell wasn't behind the package, and probably wouldn't have passed it.

If I didn't know you better, I'd think it rather adorable that you think that 1.8T offer without McConnell's signoff was actually on the up-and-up, given how often Republicans lie, SOB. It's like you really truly want to take the right wing at their word. But we all know that the real reason why you are pretending that offer was real and not bullshiat, is because you are doing your damndest to shiat on Democrats, especially if it helps Republicans. Accelerationism and all that.

People who aren't assholes like you, Sob, know that the final numbers aren't the starting numbers. Well, you do too. You're just lying, as typical.

If McConnell wouldn't have passed it anyway, why are the democrats preemptively rolling over like cowards?

Because their interests are the same as the Republicans. Their donors and their peers are the wealthy and the corporate internationalists.

Otherwise, why not craft a bill which would show how much they want to do for the working class?

Neither would pass, but one would avoid this very back and forth between cheerleaders and actual working class people.


Technically, House Dems started with a $3.4T bill. Centrist Dems watered it down to $2.2T and passed it. Then Mnuchin counter-offered a $1.8T bill, but Pelosi shunned it for the hopes of looking strong to win the election.

Since Democrats lost another crapton of down ballot seats, Pelosi is now lobbying for a package that is worth less than 50% of what Mnuchin had offered.
 
2020-12-04 10:05:36 PM  
Someone just discovered Marx.  Jeez.
 
2020-12-04 10:06:21 PM  

quatchi: It's a shiat package and everyone knows it.

Not nearly enough and it gives away the farm in terms of preventing suing employers with unsafe practices.

Dems are trying to save face by declaring it is "a good start" but it is not.

And yeah, Mitch McConnell is the Tucker to blame here.

Not so much for her inability to get something better but in her continued insistence that the GOP are good faith partners in gov't.


Don't forget that Pelosi pulled this in March when Jake Tapper of all people called her on giving away all her leverage for nothing and she got all butthurt on live television telling him to cool it and that help for states/people will definitely be done soon.  It's December and we are here again
 
2020-12-04 10:07:17 PM  

qorkfiend: SolderGlob: qorkfiend: SolderGlob: qorkfiend: SolderGlob: qorkfiend: Let's negotiate.

I have something you want.
You have nothing I want.

Make me an offer.

Listen, if the Democrats haven't figured out how to dethrone McConnell and the GOP thus far then there's seriously no hope for them going forward. If they continually capitulate to him then they can kiss any hope of gains in '22 goodbye.

The election was literally one month ago. You watched it yourself. You think no one tried to "dethrone" McConnell?

Relying on the idiots in Kentucky didn't work, what's their plan to getting any of their legislation passed? They'll have have House and Presidency after January, what's their excuse gonna be going in to '22?

They didn't rely on just the idiots in Kentucky. They also relied on the idiots in North Carolina and Maine, because guess what? The voters still get to vote.

The plan to get legislation passed is to...wait for it...get the Senate on board, which requires getting McConnell personally on board. McConnell knows this, and he knows that idiots like you will blame the Democrats for his intransigence, exactly like you're doing right now.

No, I'm blaming Democrats for having no way of dealing with him. He exists, so unless he's the king they need to find a way to get their shiat passed before the people that don't recognize the actual problem start blaming Democrats.

Uh, yeah. And? Do you have any other inane, obvious comments to make?

"The Democrats have to figure out how to get bills past the Senate". Yeah, man. We farking know. That's the entire farking problem.


Well DO IT ALREADY! MAKE YOUR DREAMS COME TRUE.

I hereby place you in charge of this problem.
 
2020-12-04 10:12:11 PM  

lordjupiter: Someone just discovered Marx.  Jeez.


Thats good! Marx is a good first step to understanding political economy.

Now they just need some Lenin and Engels to help clarify some of marx's ambiguities and contradictions.

As all good communists know, self criticism is an essential part of dialectics.
 
2020-12-04 10:12:41 PM  

Conqueror of Bread: Otherwise, why not craft a bill which would show how much they want to do for the working class?


Exactly. Make THAT the baseline, roll it up, and continue smacking McConnell in the nose with it until he stops shiatting all over the floor.
 
2020-12-04 10:12:48 PM  

Conqueror of Bread: lordjupiter: Someone just discovered Marx.  Jeez.

Thats good! Marx is a good first step to understanding political economy.

Now they just need some Lenin and Engels to help clarify some of marx's ambiguities and contradictions.

As all good communists know, self criticism is an essential part of dialectics.



JFC
 
2020-12-04 10:13:50 PM  

lordjupiter: Conqueror of Bread: lordjupiter: Someone just discovered Marx.  Jeez.

Thats good! Marx is a good first step to understanding political economy.

Now they just need some Lenin and Engels to help clarify some of marx's ambiguities and contradictions.

As all good communists know, self criticism is an essential part of dialectics.


JFC


;)

Come join us on the right side of history.
 
2020-12-04 10:23:25 PM  

Conqueror of Bread: lordjupiter: Conqueror of Bread: lordjupiter: Someone just discovered Marx.  Jeez.

Thats good! Marx is a good first step to understanding political economy.

Now they just need some Lenin and Engels to help clarify some of marx's ambiguities and contradictions.

As all good communists know, self criticism is an essential part of dialectics.


JFC

;)

Come join us on the right side of history.



History has proven Marxism to be a failure.  Even Marx had to admit this eventually when he saw that capitalism did not collapse upon itself as he expected.  He didn't anticipate unions or the introduction of regulation.  Adam Smith DID.

We don't need to tear everything down in some fantasy version of bloodless (or even bloody) revolution, we need to fix some key problems with the current system, which is already a blend of regulated capitalism and socialism.  Do that and we're much better off than any massive overhaul that simply invites more corruption both in the chaos of transition and in the aftermath.

Corruption is the problem and EVERY system is vulnerable to it.  Even socialism.  As you may find out one day if you get your way.

The right side of history RIGHT NOW is opposing the GOP's agenda.   After that it's about patching up the holes they've made going back almost 50 years.

Now go ahead and tell me all about the good news of how everything I said is 100% wrong, capitalism is inherently evil, and there is one true Way that's guided by the hands of the worker class.  I'm sure nobody's ever heard it before.
 
2020-12-04 10:27:52 PM  
I like how Conqueror of Bread is all pissed off that because some of us worked hard for our comfortable lives, we all need to board the Titanic because everyone should be wet. I guess failure breeds failure.

How about you and your ilk just stop being a victim and take control of your collective lives for once?
 
2020-12-04 10:28:09 PM  

Conqueror of Bread: Otherwise, why not craft a bill which would show how much they want to do for the working class?


They did pass a bunch of stuff like that, all of which never saw the light of day in the Senate. They may not have included as much as you or even I would have wanted, but there was good stuff that helped the working class people in the working class/Bourgeois dichotomy you seem to be operating in.

Also somewhere in this thread you promoting the coopting of back lives matter protests for general "Leftest" policy goals. That sh•ts not ok.
 
2020-12-04 10:34:52 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: President-elect Joe Biden on Friday said he's "encouraged" by the $908 billion proposal, framing it as the type of bipartisan work that he hopes to foster as president.


I love that. "As president, I really hope to foster many half measure bills that put corporations ahead of people."
 
2020-12-04 10:38:17 PM  

leeksfromchichis: qorkfiend:

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 500x331]

An anemic one time payment is the glowing bit.

The rest of the anglerfish is corporate immunity from lawsuits.


That just leave me wanting know know where male anglerfish that clamps on to the female and and even merges into the female's bloodstream in a permanent parasitic relationship  fits into this metaphor.
 
2020-12-04 10:39:31 PM  

lordjupiter: Conqueror of Bread: lordjupiter: Conqueror of Bread: lordjupiter: Someone just discovered Marx.  Jeez.

Thats good! Marx is a good first step to understanding political economy.

Now they just need some Lenin and Engels to help clarify some of marx's ambiguities and contradictions.

As all good communists know, self criticism is an essential part of dialectics.


JFC

;)

Come join us on the right side of history.


History has proven Marxism to be a failure.  Even Marx had to admit this eventually when he saw that capitalism did not collapse upon itself as he expected.  He didn't anticipate unions or the introduction of regulation.  Adam Smith DID.

We don't need to tear everything down in some fantasy version of bloodless (or even bloody) revolution, we need to fix some key problems with the current system, which is already a blend of regulated capitalism and socialism.  Do that and we're much better off than any massive overhaul that simply invites more corruption both in the chaos of transition and in the aftermath.

Corruption is the problem and EVERY system is vulnerable to it.  Even socialism.  As you may find out one day if you get your way.

The right side of history RIGHT NOW is opposing the GOP's agenda.   After that it's about patching up the holes they've made going back almost 50 years.

Now go ahead and tell me all about the good news of how everything I said is 100% wrong, capitalism is inherently evil, and there is one true Way that's guided by the hands of the worker class.  I'm sure nobody's ever heard it before.


Its amazing how everything in your post is wrong lol.

I'm enjoying a lovely glass of bourbon right now, so I can't be bothered to walk you through how silly your comment is.

There are millions of Marxists in the world you should seek one out and have them help you.

Check out Economic Update with Richard Wolffe.

Its a good place to start, but as I tell my students, you have to want to learn in order to learn.

Id also suggest "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific" by Engels before moving on to Marx's main texts.

Critique of the Gotha Program is useful too.

Lots of resources out there to help you on your journey.

My path was a winding one. I went from a right wing libertarian as a kid in the south and got into freedman, then shifted to a classical liberal in my 20s a neolib because of Obama, which I regret. Shameful years of being on the wrong part of the Dunning Kruger effect. I used to make your very argument.

I found anarchism through proudhon and chomsky, who's work saved my life. I still love the man despite some disagreements about revolutionary strategy. He will always be a hero.

Then I found my way through marx and engels about 8 years ago. There is so much to learn here. So much history to examine.

I hope you give it a try. You might look back on who you were today, 8 years from now and be so glad you started this journey.

I ended up saying way more than I intended. Must he the bourbon.

Good luck, hopefully future comrade!
 
2020-12-04 10:39:57 PM  

Jiggatron69: quatchi: It's a shiat package and everyone knows it.

Not nearly enough and it gives away the farm in terms of preventing suing employers with unsafe practices.

Dems are trying to save face by declaring it is "a good start" but it is not.

And yeah, Mitch McConnell is the Tucker to blame here.

Not so much for her inability to get something better but in her continued insistence that the GOP are good faith partners in gov't.

Don't forget that Pelosi pulled this in March when Jake Tapper of all people called her on giving away all her leverage for nothing and she got all butthurt on live television telling him to cool it and that help for states/people will definitely be done soon.  It's December and we are here again


It's amazing to me that "it's time to try a new Speaker" is even controversial.  The fact that Dems don't see that as obvious makes me deeply pessimistic about ever breaking through Democratic inertia so the party can be a change agent.
 
2020-12-04 10:44:58 PM  

Beast_Ice: Conqueror of Bread: Otherwise, why not craft a bill which would show how much they want to do for the working class?

They did pass a bunch of stuff like that, all of which never saw the light of day in the Senate. They may not have included as much as you or even I would have wanted, but there was good stuff that helped the working class people in the working class/Bourgeois dichotomy you seem to be operating in.

Also somewhere in this thread you promoting the coopting of back lives matter protests for general "Leftest" policy goals. That sh•ts not ok.


Not coopting. People of color ought to be in the revolutionary vanguard. Indigenous people too. Most of the drivers of policy of any revolutionary movement need to be of the disenfranchised groups. This prevents any ethno centrist policies in a collectivist organization.

Check out the concept of vanguardism. I would hope leaders who organize through BLM would be heavily involved in the democratic structures of a collective worker movment. Otherwise it wouldn't really be a movement worth supporting.
 
2020-12-04 10:55:29 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: leeksfromchichis: qorkfiend:

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 500x331]

An anemic one time payment is the glowing bit.

The rest of the anglerfish is corporate immunity from lawsuits.

That just leave me wanting know know where male anglerfish that clamps on to the female and and even merges into the female's bloodstream in a permanent parasitic relationship  fits into this metaphor.


I dunno. Ted Cruz?
 
2020-12-04 10:56:51 PM  

qorkfiend: leeksfromchichis: qorkfiend: leeksfromchichis: qorkfiend:

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 500x331]

An anemic one time payment is the glowing bit.

The rest of the anglerfish is corporate immunity from lawsuits.

Right. So, nothing then?

Nothing is preferable to death and destruction caused directly by corporation security being legally protected with a tiny garnish of nowhere near enough money months late and being expected to eat the DNC's ass out like it was full of ice cream.

But what I actually would like to see is the Democrats not "compromising" with nation destroying pro-corporate stuff and go back to the party of the people they used to be before my lifetime.

Oh, I didn't know you had a plan to jam a Democratic wish list through a Republican majority Senate. Seems strange to keep such a thing a secret, though. What have you been waiting for?


I dunno, Ted Cruz?
 
2020-12-04 11:05:47 PM  

lordjupiter: Conqueror of Bread: lordjupiter: Conqueror of Bread: lordjupiter: Someone just discovered Marx.  Jeez.

Thats good! Marx is a good first step to understanding political economy.

Now they just need some Lenin and Engels to help clarify some of marx's ambiguities and contradictions.

As all good communists know, self criticism is an essential part of dialectics.


JFC

;)

Come join us on the right side of history.


History has proven Marxism to be a failure.  Even Marx had to admit this eventually when he saw that capitalism did not collapse upon itself as he expected.  He didn't anticipate unions or the introduction of regulation.  Adam Smith DID.

We don't need to tear everything down in some fantasy version of bloodless (or even bloody) revolution, we need to fix some key problems with the current system, which is already a blend of regulated capitalism and socialism.  Do that and we're much better off than any massive overhaul that simply invites more corruption both in the chaos of transition and in the aftermath.

Corruption is the problem and EVERY system is vulnerable to it.  Even socialism.  As you may find out one day if you get your way.

The right side of history RIGHT NOW is opposing the GOP's agenda.   After that it's about patching up the holes they've made going back almost 50 years.

Now go ahead and tell me all about the good news of how everything I said is 100% wrong, capitalism is inherently evil, and there is one true Way that's guided by the hands of the worker class.  I'm sure nobody's ever heard it before.


Just a few quick things:

Marx read Adam Smith! We all should! Freedman misinterprets him terribly. I was really into freedman in high school and hadn't read Smith. When I did in college I had a very different take. Remember, Smith lived 100 years before Marx. His text is foundational to market theory.

But Smith was critical of capital accumulation.

Marx just expands on the works of those who came before. Just as economists and philosophers do today.

So its odd you frame your response as if it is either Marx or Smith.

And we really don't have socialism. Socialism requires worker ownership, public ownership and/or state ownership of the means of production AND a mode of production that is designed to meet needs and provide services.

What we have are some bourgiois concessioms won through socialist-influenced labor and social movments.

"Programs" are welfare policy, which is an improvement over private ownership, but not socialism, which requires a shift in the economic base and collective ownership of the means of production.

I'm such a teacher by habit. Can't help but facilitate the lernin.
 
2020-12-04 11:11:54 PM  

misanthropicsob: Cornelius Dribble: Znuh: You can biatch about Pelosi all you want; everything we're experiencing is entirely on McConnell's shoulders. How many drafts of this have we had? All refused by Dicknose McRusskie?

If you tally up the most harmful and longest-lasting government actions of the last four years, you will realize that while Donald Trump was playing at being president, the real president of the United States was Mitch McConnell.

What is with people trying to rehabilitate Republican presidents? George W Bush wasn't evil; Dick Cheney was the mastermind. Trump wasn't bad; it was Mitch McConnell.

Stop rehabilitating shiat presidents.


I didn't say Trump wasn't bad. I said he was a distraction. And it seemed to work on you.
 
2020-12-04 11:30:36 PM  

austerity101: Gyrfalcon: eddie_irvine: Gyrfalcon: eddie_irvine: This is a shiat bill, nothing but failed supply side economics. She should walk away.

Because nothing at all is much better than something! People can eat principles for Christmas!

It is nothing. It's just anothe transfer of (future) taxpayer money to millionaires and billionaires. The regular person gets nothing out of this.

Start marching, Mao.

Are you a Republican?  If not, why are you hurling insults like you are one?  Act like an adult.


Why? I'm tired of being told I have to be the kind and tolerant one when my opponents keep acting like whiny babies.

Falcon don't fly that route.
 
2020-12-04 11:37:51 PM  

Gyrfalcon: austerity101: Gyrfalcon: eddie_irvine: Gyrfalcon: eddie_irvine: This is a shiat bill, nothing but failed supply side economics. She should walk away.

Because nothing at all is much better than something! People can eat principles for Christmas!

It is nothing. It's just anothe transfer of (future) taxpayer money to millionaires and billionaires. The regular person gets nothing out of this.

Start marching, Mao.

Are you a Republican?  If not, why are you hurling insults like you are one?  Act like an adult.

Why? I'm tired of being told I have to be the kind and tolerant one when my opponents keep acting like whiny babies.

Falcon don't fly that route.


So, you admit, you don't want to work with progressives and consider them your enemy.

This is a mainstream Democratic position, so I'm not surprised.
 
2020-12-04 11:38:28 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: That just leave me wanting know know where male anglerfish that clamps on to the female and and even merges into the female's bloodstream in a permanent parasitic relationship  fits into this metaphor.


That would be Congress
 
2020-12-04 11:42:47 PM  
When you are wealthy enough to afford firewood burning the ladder rungs just makes you an asshole.
 
2020-12-04 11:46:21 PM  
Conqueror of Bread:

What do you think about Lenin's idea of permanent worker revolution?
 
2020-12-04 11:47:07 PM  

Stibium: Conqueror of Bread:

What do you think about Lenin's idea of permanent worker revolution?


Trotsky, not Lenin. Derp.
 
2020-12-05 12:12:49 AM  

vpb: What's asinine about it?  There are a lot of people who need help and would have gotten nothing if she hadn't compromised.


The people who need help still aren't going to get it, at least nothing meaningful, or are you referring to the money being slated to the airlines and other multi-billion dollar industries who already took more than $3.9 trillion from the first round of stimulus?
 
2020-12-05 12:18:21 AM  

Mikey1969: vpb: What's asinine about it?  There are a lot of people who need help and would have gotten nothing if she hadn't compromised.

Because almost nobody here understands the word "compromise".


There's a point where compromise becomes collaboration/capitulation.

At some point when people argue that you should be happy that you're getting nothing, while the opposition is getting everything they demanded, you need to realise that you didn't "compromise" on anything; you simply got your ass handed to you, and you need to figure out if the person responsible for that result did it deliberately or if they're just bad at their job.
 
2020-12-05 12:18:51 AM  

Stibium: Stibium: Conqueror of Bread:

What do you think about Lenin's idea of permanent worker revolution?

Trotsky, not Lenin. Derp.


No worries!  They both addressed the concept a bit.

Cut me some slack on this, because it is Friday and I'm very chill right now.

I'll be honest I've only picked up a few Trotsky works. That is one of them tho and its addressed in other works. He reads like a fark post. Lots of little snide shots lol.

I think its a generally useful concept but not applicable for our position in the imperial core. If you catch my meaning.

I think leftists should generally support any socialist movements abroad. Practice internsfionalism. Like if leftists pooled resources and aided groups outside of their state who were attempting to establish socialism.

It isn't really relevant beyond that material support, because we haven't achieved socialism at home and should focus most of our efforts there.

I think our strategy ought to be preventing the imperialists from destroying socialist systems in the global south, what Trotsky might call "less developed" nations.

This is where my streak of anarcho communism comes in because I feel like self determination is really key here.

I know that was a lot of topics, but those were just some of the ideas that popped into my head.
 
2020-12-05 12:21:17 AM  
Internationalism* duh! T_T
 
2020-12-05 12:37:08 AM  

Gyrfalcon: austerity101: Gyrfalcon: eddie_irvine: Gyrfalcon: eddie_irvine: This is a shiat bill, nothing but failed supply side economics. She should walk away.

Because nothing at all is much better than something! People can eat principles for Christmas!

It is nothing. It's just anothe transfer of (future) taxpayer money to millionaires and billionaires. The regular person gets nothing out of this.

Start marching, Mao.

Are you a Republican?  If not, why are you hurling insults like you are one?  Act like an adult.

Why? I'm tired of being told I have to be the kind and tolerant one when my opponents keep acting like whiny babies.

Falcon don't fly that route.


Nothing you said follows from my comment.
 
2020-12-05 12:42:52 AM  

Conqueror of Bread: Stibium: Stibium: Conqueror of Bread:

What do you think about Lenin's idea of permanent worker revolution?

Trotsky, not Lenin. Derp.

No worries!  They both addressed the concept a bit.

Cut me some slack on this, because it is Friday and I'm very chill right now.

I'll be honest I've only picked up a few Trotsky works. That is one of them tho and its addressed in other works. He reads like a fark post. Lots of little snide shots lol.

I think its a generally useful concept but not applicable for our position in the imperial core. If you catch my meaning.

I think leftists should generally support any socialist movements abroad. Practice internsfionalism. Like if leftists pooled resources and aided groups outside of their state who were attempting to establish socialism.

It isn't really relevant beyond that material support, because we haven't achieved socialism at home and should focus most of our efforts there.

I think our strategy ought to be preventing the imperialists from destroying socialist systems in the global south, what Trotsky might call "less developed" nations.

This is where my streak of anarcho communism comes in because I feel like self determination is really key here.

I know that was a lot of topics, but those were just some of the ideas that popped into my head.


Just curious, really, I don't get many opportunities to discuss it. It seems to me to be the most effective way to ensure that too few people don't control too much power, where a party can free itself from democratic processes and take control of the entire machine, al a Stalin.

Doesn't really help us right now get to where we need to be, but I think it's an important concept to keep in mind, especially as the means of production continues to become so cheap with the proliferation of 3D printing and open-source solutions that even a person on minimum wage can afford to partake.
 
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