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(Politico)   In Burdick v. United States, 236 U.S. 79 (1915), the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a pardon carries an imputation of guilt, and acceptance carries a confession   (politico.com) divider line
    More: Giggity, President of the United States, White House, Ivanka Trump, presidential advisers, Donald Trump, President Donald Trump, wealthy neighbor, last-minute pardons  
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5202 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Dec 2020 at 9:30 PM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

 
2020-12-04 9:35:45 PM  
34 votes:
 
2020-12-04 7:08:17 PM  
32 votes:
Yar.  It's not a "clean slate".  It means you admit you did all the bad stuff you were convicted of but you're not getting punished for it.  It's still on your record, like convicted felon Dinesh D'Sousa.
 
2020-12-04 9:39:02 PM  
24 votes:
I'd love to hear Biden say something along the lines of "If Trump can pardon himself and his family, then I'm allowed to do the same". The GOP would lose their shiat.
 
2020-12-04 7:00:15 PM  
23 votes:

edmo: Just how far into the future does this extend? It's preemptive? As in in advance of conviction? Or in advance of the crime? Perhaps they have blanks checks to commit crimes the rest of their lives as if sinning their life away knowing they're forgiven?


An offense must have been completed before it may be pardoned.  Prospective and ongoing offenses may not be pardoned until completed.
 
2020-12-04 6:59:15 PM  
23 votes:

vudukungfu: just remember the next president can revoke a pardon granted by the last


(No, he can't. The next president can, however, refuse to deliver it to the recipient if the recipient has not obtained it, thereby nullifying the effect.)
 
2020-12-04 4:12:25 PM  
23 votes:
Hard to run for president when hiding out in Switzerland or Russia.
 
2020-12-04 4:18:36 PM  
15 votes:
just remember the next president can revoke a pardon granted by the last.
checkmix
 
2020-12-04 9:31:36 PM  
12 votes:
Subby be trolling
 
2020-12-04 6:18:28 PM  
12 votes:
Just how far into the future does this extend? It's preemptive? As in in advance of conviction? Or in advance of the crime? Perhaps they have blanks checks to commit crimes the rest of their lives as if sinning their life away knowing they're forgiven?
 
2020-12-04 3:39:29 PM  
11 votes:
Ya thunkit?
 
2020-12-04 9:39:34 PM  
10 votes:

Jake Havechek: Yar.  It's not a "clean slate".  It means you admit you did all the bad stuff you were convicted of but you're not getting punished for it.  It's still on your record, like convicted felon Dinesh D'Sousa.


Wouldn't that also open you up to being unable to defend against civil suits?
 
2020-12-04 9:46:32 PM  
9 votes:

HideAndGoFarkYourself: MaliFinn: Pardons are only exercised after conviction.  Also, pardons are an admission of guilt and are a great basis for suing someone into the poorhouse.

Tell that to Nixon.

There's so much disinformation about pardons going around that I'm beginning to think pardons, HIPAA and Section 230 are outside the realm of understanding fir any human person.


It probably doesn't help that for each of those things there's "How it's supposed to work" and "How it actually works because our laws were stupidly written," so I can't really blame people for being confused.  We actually used to have laws, that we sometimes enforced.
 
2020-12-04 9:44:00 PM  
9 votes:

MaliFinn: Pardons are only exercised after conviction.  Also, pardons are an admission of guilt and are a great basis for suing someone into the poorhouse.


Tell that to Nixon.

There's so much disinformation about pardons going around that I'm beginning to think pardons, HIPAA and Section 230 are outside the realm of understanding fir any human person.
 
2020-12-04 9:34:55 PM  
9 votes:
Every accusation pardon is a confession
 
2020-12-04 6:57:57 PM  
9 votes:
It only so caries in re politica, not de jure.
 
2020-12-04 9:37:26 PM  
8 votes:
Pardons are only exercised after conviction.  Also, pardons are an admission of guilt and are a great basis for suing someone into the poorhouse.
 
2020-12-04 10:02:51 PM  
7 votes:
"Imputation of guilt" does not mean "they did it."

People really ought to first examine the definition of "impute" and then read the actual Burdick decision. Burdick wasn't going to get the same protection by a vague pardon as he would have gotten with a more specific immunity deal, and that's why he did not accept it. The fact that it "makes you look guilty" was secondary, and was not part of the original question brought to SCOTUS, which was whether or not you could force a pardon on someone. The imputation of guilt is immaterial to that decision, so it carries little weight for future consideration.

Furthermore, if such a thing were actually true, and not just a feature of public perception, why would it even be written into the Constitution? To say "a pardon means you are definitely guilty" would imply that truly innocent people cannot be pardoned; how could you be innocent if you accept a pardon?
 
2020-12-04 9:51:52 PM  
7 votes:
If you've been pardoned for a crime, especially if you've received a blanket pardon for ill defined crimes, that means that any testimony you give is pretty much immune to self-incrimination, which means you have no 5th amendment protections and can be compelled to testify. So, y'know, we've got that to look forward to.
 
2020-12-04 9:46:05 PM  
7 votes:
"Non traditional" is a farked up way of spelling "farking insane".
 
2020-12-04 9:37:58 PM  
7 votes:
The entire point to TFA was that nobody knows what will happen if and when Trump tries mass pardons, blanket pardons and maybe a self pardon.

SCOTUS ain't said squat yet.
 
2020-12-04 9:55:17 PM  
6 votes:
The result is yet another looming showdown between Trump and the broader Republican Party.


Ha, ha, ha, no.

The Republicans will allow him to do whatever he wants, establish the precedent, and when a smarter more evil Republican becomes President, will just sit back and say it's a-ok when they do something on par or even worse.
 
2020-12-04 9:47:29 PM  
6 votes:
I have not really dug hard into the details, but I have a hard time with the "Flynn was railroaded" narrative.

Dude was tapped by the President to be the National Security Advisor and he got trickerated by some fancy talkin' FBI types into perjuring himself? All the best people, indeed, It was probably best that he didn't get the job. One can only wonder how he would have been played by other countries.
 
2020-12-04 9:45:18 PM  
6 votes:

MaliFinn: Pardons are only exercised after conviction.


Not true. They may be presented at any point subsequent to being charged before a court, which in turn may make presenting such charges sufficiently pointless that a prosecutor is unlikely to even file if a prosecutor knows that an offender has received pardon for that offense.
 
2020-12-04 7:14:41 PM  
6 votes:

abb3w: vudukungfu: just remember the next president can revoke a pardon granted by the last

(No, he can't. The next president can, however, refuse to deliver it to the recipient if the recipient has not obtained it, thereby nullifying the effect.)


Aw, man...
 
2020-12-04 11:18:52 PM  
5 votes:
Wow. We were on safer ground when we were discussing the Middle East.

Suffice it to say that if Trump* pardons himself there will be a massive legal cluster Fark. Arguing will occur, yelling even. Fists will pound desks and fingers will be wagged and pointed. Pundits will weigh in and nuts will prove once more that they are indeed nuts.
And during this confusion many bank transfers will be made and one-way tickets purchased.
 
2020-12-04 10:29:52 PM  
5 votes:

Stibium: "Imputation of guilt" does not mean "they did it."

People really ought to first examine the definition of "impute" and then read the actual Burdick decision. Burdick wasn't going to get the same protection by a vague pardon as he would have gotten with a more specific immunity deal, and that's why he did not accept it. The fact that it "makes you look guilty" was secondary, and was not part of the original question brought to SCOTUS, which was whether or not you could force a pardon on someone. The imputation of guilt is immaterial to that decision, so it carries little weight for future consideration.

Furthermore, if such a thing were actually true, and not just a feature of public perception, why would it even be written into the Constitution? To say "a pardon means you are definitely guilty" would imply that truly innocent people cannot be pardoned; how could you be innocent if you accept a pardon?


This is it in a nutshell. And let's not forget that pardons have been issued in cases of a clear miscarriage of justice that, for whatever reason, is not subject to further judicial appeal, and in cases where the pardoned person is dead - in neither of those cases it is logical for there to be an admission of guilt.
 
2020-12-04 10:05:15 PM  
5 votes:
Why do we even have a presidential pardon?
 
2020-12-04 11:01:57 PM  
4 votes:

Jake Havechek: Yar.  It's not a "clean slate".  It means you admit you did all the bad stuff you were convicted of but you're not getting punished for it.  It's still on your record, like convicted felon Dinesh D'Sousa.


Assuming no civil recourse, let me translate what you just said into sociopath:

1) Commit crime.
2) Collect loot / gain benefit of crime.
3) [Optionally charged and/or convicted]
4) Pardoned whether for perceived loyalty, bribery, kickback, whatever., as long as the pardoned gets to keep the loot.

Fark user imageView Full Size


"So lemme get this straight. I may or may not have commited a crime, but a pardon means I get to keep the loot from whatever crimes I may or may not have committed."
"Correct, but it's also an admission of guilt!""
"Whatever, the question I'm asking is I keep the loot, right?"
"Right, but it's an admission of gui-"
*clicks accept-pardon button*
"What if you weren't guilty? Like, even if you pleaded not guilty the first time you went to court"
*clicks accept-pardon button again*
"But someone might call you 'convicted felon Dinesh D'Souza' instead of 'totally innocent Dinesh D'Souza!'"
*clicks accept-pardon button two more times to collect a fourth dose of loot*
 
2020-12-04 10:09:34 PM  
4 votes:

harleyquinnical: And without a word from the GOP, they secretly want to see if this will stand up in court, because if it does, they will commit crimes with impunity knowing they will never receive punishment beyond an admission of guilt.


If I were a cynic, I'd wonder if the Democrats want to "heal and move on" because they know that setting the precedent of holding the rich and powerful accountable for their many crimes could end up exposing them too, even if it's an order of magnitude less.

Which is, of course, why it (holding them accountable) must be done and we should be prepared for a few losses on our side as well, even after subtracting Republican projection and lies.
 
2020-12-04 11:23:12 PM  
3 votes:

monsatano: Subby be trolling


Subby be making up shiat that just ain't true. Consider, for example, a pardon granted on the basis of actual innocence.
 
2020-12-04 10:00:48 PM  
3 votes:
And without a word from the GOP, they secretly want to see if this will stand up in court, because if it does, they will commit crimes with impunity knowing they will never receive punishment beyond an admission of guilt.
 
2020-12-04 9:48:21 PM  
3 votes:

namegoeshere: vudukungfu: just remember the next president can revoke a pardon granted by the last.
checkmix

Is this true?


No
 
2020-12-04 11:29:48 PM  
2 votes:

HideAndGoFarkYourself: MaliFinn: Pardons are only exercised after conviction.  Also, pardons are an admission of guilt and are a great basis for suing someone into the poorhouse.

Tell that to Nixon.

There's so much disinformation about pardons going around that I'm beginning to think pardons, HIPAA and Section 230 are outside the realm of understanding fir any human person.


Wait til you get to substantive due process, the Eleventh Amendment, or the Rule Against Perpetuties. In one famous case, a California court held that simply misunderstanding the Rule Against Perpetuities cannot, by itself, constitute malpractice because no one really understands the Rule Against Perpetuities.
 
2020-12-04 11:18:10 PM  
2 votes:

quizzical: Do you lose your right to vote if you accept a pardon?


USDOJ - Does a presidential pardon expunge or erase the conviction for which the pardon was granted?

"No.  Expungement is a judicial remedy that is rarely granted by the court and cannot be granted within the Department of Justice or by the President.  Please also be aware that if you were to be granted a presidential pardon, the pardoned offense would not be removed from your criminal record.  Instead, both the federal conviction as well as the pardon would both appear on your record. However, a pardon will facilitate removal of legal disabilities imposed because of the conviction, and should lessen to some extent the stigma arising from the conviction.  In addition, a pardon may be helpful in obtaining licenses, bonding, or employment."
 
2020-12-04 10:54:03 PM  
2 votes:

Jake Havechek: Yar.  It's not a "clean slate".  It means you admit you did all the bad stuff you were convicted of but you're not getting punished for it.  It's still on your record, like convicted felon Dinesh D'Sousa.


Look, everyone knows if Trump pardoned you that you were on your knees licking him clean after he soiled his diaper.
 
2020-12-04 10:22:27 PM  
2 votes:
Trump may be doing Biden a favor. There's a lot of pressure on Biden to either go after Trump and his associates or to just let it go.  If Trump pardons them this takes the pressure off of Biden while allowing the states, like New York, to still go after them.
 
2020-12-04 10:13:36 PM  
2 votes:

Stibium: "Imputation of guilt" does not mean "they did it."

People really ought to first examine the definition of "impute" and then read the actual Burdick decision. Burdick wasn't going to get the same protection by a vague pardon as he would have gotten with a more specific immunity deal, and that's why he did not accept it. The fact that it "makes you look guilty" was secondary, and was not part of the original question brought to SCOTUS, which was whether or not you could force a pardon on someone. The imputation of guilt is immaterial to that decision, so it carries little weight for future consideration.

Furthermore, if such a thing were actually true, and not just a feature of public perception, why would it even be written into the Constitution? To say "a pardon means you are definitely guilty" would imply that truly innocent people cannot be pardoned; how could you be innocent if you accept a pardon?


TL;DR: Subby is a troll.
 
2020-12-04 10:04:21 PM  
2 votes:
Well. This is useful.

I wonder what the ghosts of Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford have to say about this.

But you know, the deal which was struck for the pardoning of Nixon was based on such a mountain of norms and traditions and traded favors and mutual understandings that it probably does not very much apply to the situation today. I feel confident in saying that the Nixon resignation deal could not be done in today's America.
 
2020-12-04 9:57:14 PM  
2 votes:

HideAndGoFarkYourself: MaliFinn: Pardons are only exercised after conviction.  Also, pardons are an admission of guilt and are a great basis for suing someone into the poorhouse.

Tell that to Nixon.

There's so much disinformation about pardons going around that I'm beginning to think pardons, HIPAA and Section 230 are outside the realm of understanding fir any human person.


Ah, well the dirty secret of the Nixon pardon is that it wasn't ever exercised. No one ever actually charged Nixon so he never actually had to try and use it.
 
2020-12-04 9:53:26 PM  
2 votes:

Mister Peejay: Jake Havechek: Yar.  It's not a "clean slate".  It means you admit you did all the bad stuff you were convicted of but you're not getting punished for it.  It's still on your record, like convicted felon Dinesh D'Sousa.

Wouldn't that also open you up to being unable to defend against civil suits?


It depends. There's not always a civil cause of action.

If someone was convicted and then pardoned for murder, you could probably introduce that into a civil proceeding about wrongful death or negligence or something (similar to what happened to OJ). However, it would be impossible to sue someone else who was pardoned for, say, tax fraud (unless he was perhaps also your accountant and the fraud was related to your taxes). There's generally no remedy to be had even if you could show harm.
 
2020-12-04 9:40:37 PM  
2 votes:

lolmao500: abb3w: edmo: Just how far into the future does this extend? It's preemptive? As in in advance of conviction? Or in advance of the crime? Perhaps they have blanks checks to commit crimes the rest of their lives as if sinning their life away knowing they're forgiven?

An offense must have been completed before it may be pardoned.  Prospective and ongoing offenses may not be pardoned until completed.

So since trump will still be a traitor in debt to russia and doing their bidding of destroying the US from the inside with his lies and BS after hes out of office, all the pardons he gives himself are null and void.


Depends whether you can establish an ongoing crime of conspiracy. Treason usually is a more cohate offense; acts of aid and comfort to the enemy must be specific (and have two witnesses), and therefore generally can't be an ongoing crime (unless the aid and comfort is an ongoing offense, such as holding a kidnap victim hostage).

It might also only be void for those ongoing offenses, as opposed to various tax evasion offense charges he might have outstanding.
 
2020-12-05 2:05:06 AM  
1 vote:

Stibium: Aquapope: So if the SCOTUS has ruled that way historically, how can a pardon be for an undefined crime?  As in "I pardon Flynn for anything he might have done related to the Mueller investigation."  How can that carry an imputation of guilt for a crime not enumerated?  Or is he guilty of, and confessing to, every single crime alleged, or even implied, by the Mueller report?  No investigation or trial necessary, he's already confessed.

This was essentially the argument Burdick made when he rejected his pardon. I don't think it would have a chance of surviving legal challenge. Then again with *rump's SCOTUS, who knows? An unconditional, blanket may be useful, but it would assume the pardoned individual is a cooperating and truthful witness acting in good faith. I would think defense would bring some sort of objection* that could get elevated to SCOTUS if they really wanted it hard enough.

/* not sure what that objection would be to, considering such confession is not being coerced
//"the prosecution made my case look bad!" isn't that objection


Could investigators use his presumed guilt of anything involving the Mueller report to pressure him to spill his guts about everybody involved, ultimately locking Flynn up for obstruction if he doesn't cooperate?  That obstruction wouldn't be covered under the pardon because it's new.  Right?  Maybe?
 
2020-12-05 2:02:55 AM  
1 vote:

qorkfiend: HideAndGoFarkYourself: MaliFinn: Pardons are only exercised after conviction.  Also, pardons are an admission of guilt and are a great basis for suing someone into the poorhouse.

Tell that to Nixon.

There's so much disinformation about pardons going around that I'm beginning to think pardons, HIPAA and Section 230 are outside the realm of understanding fir any human person.

Ah, well the dirty secret of the Nixon pardon is that it wasn't ever exercised. No one ever actually charged Nixon so he never actually had to try and use it.


Ding!

Also dirty secret of the Nixon pardon is that after the release of the Nixon tapes, everyone knew he was in it up to his shifty eyebrows. He was done. Ford's pardon essentially forestalled a fait accompli in the courtroom--Nixon was guilty, there was zero question; he also wouldn't have been able to get a fair trial anywhere in the solar system. All the pardon did was quash another decade of legal wrangling.
 
2020-12-05 1:26:51 AM  
1 vote:
So if the SCOTUS has ruled that way historically, how can a pardon be for an undefined crime?  As in "I pardon Flynn for anything he might have done related to the Mueller investigation."  How can that carry an imputation of guilt for a crime not enumerated?  Or is he guilty of, and confessing to, every single crime alleged, or even implied, by the Mueller report?  No investigation or trial necessary, he's already confessed.
 
2020-12-05 12:07:26 AM  
1 vote:

vudukungfu: just remember the next president can revoke a pardon granted by the last.
checkmix


Doubtful.

However.   Accepting a pardon removes your right to remain silent under the 5th amendment since no legal jeopardy can attach.   S Congress...say the House oversight and government reform committee, could subpoena every pardon recipient and ask them essentially to give a full confession of all the illegal acts they committed which were subject to the pardon.    If they answer fully and truthfully, we have a record in thier own words, and should be able to ferret out their un-pardoned co-conspirators.

If they lie or omit or otherwise testify falsely, well, their pardon only worked for crimes committed up to the day it was granted, not new crimes...
 
2020-12-04 11:48:59 PM  
1 vote:
Ctrl+F on TFA: Supreme

No results found.

F*ck you subby.
 
2020-12-04 11:40:41 PM  
1 vote:

BMulligan: monsatano: Subby be trolling

Subby be making up shiat that just ain't true. Consider, for example, a pardon granted on the basis of actual innocence.


Like I said - subby be trolling
 
2020-12-04 11:33:42 PM  
1 vote:

quizzical: Do you lose your right to vote if you accept a pardon?


To the contrary, a pardon restores a convict's right to vote.
 
2020-12-04 11:26:43 PM  
1 vote:

MaliFinn: Pardons are only exercised after conviction.  Also, pardons are an admission of guilt and are a great basis for suing someone into the poorhouse.


Every word of this is completely wrong.
 
2020-12-04 10:48:30 PM  
1 vote:
It was established that you can't prove your innocence after accepting a pardon in Bear Anus v. Woods.
 
2020-12-04 10:05:49 PM  
1 vote:

edmo: Just how far into the future does this extend? It's preemptive? As in in advance of conviction? Or in advance of the crime? Perhaps they have blanks checks to commit crimes the rest of their lives as if sinning their life away knowing they're forgiven?


It's preemptive in the sense that future prosecutions can not be carried out for crimes that have already been committed. Pardons cannot cover future crimes.
 
2020-12-04 9:49:12 PM  
1 vote:

abb3w: It only so caries in re politica, not de jure.


I saw someone explain that it counts only if you *use* it. So if you've been convicted and accept the pardon to get out of jail, you admit guilt, but if you're being investigated and they pack it in because you have the pardon in your pocket so it'd waste their time to continue, you admit nothing.

I read this on the internet though so while it seems reasonable, it should be taken aporopriately
 
2020-12-04 9:31:52 PM  
1 vote:

abb3w: edmo: Just how far into the future does this extend? It's preemptive? As in in advance of conviction? Or in advance of the crime? Perhaps they have blanks checks to commit crimes the rest of their lives as if sinning their life away knowing they're forgiven?

An offense must have been completed before it may be pardoned.  Prospective and ongoing offenses may not be pardoned until completed.


So since trump will still be a traitor in debt to russia and doing their bidding of destroying the US from the inside with his lies and BS after hes out of office, all the pardons he gives himself are null and void.
 
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