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(US Department of Justice)   Justice Department accuses Facebook of using H-1B visas the way tech companies use H-1B visas   (justice.gov) divider line
    More: Interesting, Employment, Labor certification, Discrimination, United States Department of Justice, Pleading, Law, U.S. workers, Federal Bureau of Investigation  
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571 clicks; posted to Business » on 03 Dec 2020 at 9:31 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



31 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2020-12-03 9:46:23 PM  
many years ago, I had a conversation with some bureaucrat about a job that a company wanted a H-1B visa to fill:

Her: do you know why you weren't hired for the job?
Me: I was never called in for an interview.
Her: they say you were interviewed on xx/xx/xx.
Me: nope, never even got a phone call.
Her: but they said you didn't have yy qualification.
Me: four years on that system, they wanted two.
Her: but
Me: nope, nada, zip, zilch. You were lied to.
Her: thank you, bye
 
2020-12-03 9:49:01 PM  
I'd feel better about this if I thought it had nothing to do with Facebook not promoting Hunter Biden and his magical laptop of inequity.
 
2020-12-03 10:10:23 PM  
Corporations are evil, news at 11.
 
2020-12-03 10:14:23 PM  
"Pick one of the Asians, I can get them cheaper'

My boss handing me a stack of resumes.
 
2020-12-03 10:20:06 PM  

Rapmaster2000: I'd feel better about this if I thought it had nothing to do with Facebook not promoting Hunter Biden and his magical laptop of inequity.


Look.  I know it's for the wrong reasons, but can we just enjoy this moment that will never happen again?  I mean, we all know that corporations will be able to do whatever they want with the H1B program from here on out, but just this once, one time, can we enjoy a little justice?
 
2020-12-03 10:29:31 PM  
Diddums.

Why is complaining about college educated people's jobs going to cheap foreign labor OK, but if you complain about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs, you're a deplorable, racist, xenophobe?
 
2020-12-03 10:38:20 PM  
Facebook might be the first to get sued, but there are SO many others.

Like most things, Facebook is just much much more egregious and blatant and amoral than the rest of the companies doing similar sh*t.

I fully expect Cisco, AMD, Salesforce, Adobe, Agilisys, Logitech and others to get named at some point. They are well-known locally as notorious for that kinda shiat.
 
2020-12-03 10:39:23 PM  

HempHead: "Pick one of the Asians, I can get them cheaper'


It's not necessarily that they can get them cheaper it's that once they get them they are pretty much slaves and OWNED by the company.  If they leave the company they have to go back home to India.
 
2020-12-03 10:46:47 PM  

Rereading TekWar: Diddums.

Why is complaining about college educated people's jobs going to cheap foreign labor OK, but if you complain about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs, you're a deplorable, racist, xenophobe?


Money.

For at least a decade the biggest 10-15 tech companies in the valley had a gentlemen's agreement to not hire each other's people. It depressed wages and gave a lot of people few places to go. If they could keep their people from leaving, they wouldn't have to compete on pay.

Facebook wasn't really that big back then, and it was only after those companies got their ass handed to them that facebook became a peer(ish). All the companies needed hundreds/thousands of engineers. The vast majority shrugged and paid the market rate, but Facebook went all-in on the H1B thing.

If you've ever seen a comp package for these jobs, it's pretty drastic how different they are. If you're a random citizen applying for an in-demand job at Google/Intel/intuit/Etc, you might see a salary of $150-200k and stock worth maybe double or triple that every year. But, when they're H1Bs, the stock comp usually is off the table or a fraction of what it would cost them otherwise.

So no, Facebook wasn't f*ckng over citizens for a job because a foreigner was $5hr cheaper. They did it for control, primarily and savings secondary. What's better than having an engineer that can't leave no matter how shiatty you treat him? Paying $300k a year less for the privilege.
 
2020-12-03 10:54:47 PM  

RightWingWacko: It's not necessarily that they can get them cheaper it's that once they get them they are pretty much slaves and OWNED by the company. If they leave the company they have to go back home to India.


H1B's are as a rule, usually cheaper. Some companies do it for that. Cisco does it for that reason. Salesforce the same.

Other places are f*cking dystopian sweatshops that can't keep employees, and h1Bs give them a captive workforce.

Facebook is not only one of the highest-stress jobs in the valley, but it's also the least fulfilling. They operate differently and no good engineer will go there. At Facebook, the more experienced or better qualified or more skilled you are? yeah... that makes your life worse. They filled so many positions early-on with barely capable dummies, mostly because they were the only ones willing to go there. Think of the Trump admin. So these dummies ended up running the show and needed to protect that... so they hired people that wouldn't show them up, who also did the same.

So at Facebook, if you are one of the 10x'ers Silicon Valley talks about... you're gonna have a VERY bad experience. Everyone knows someone everywhere here and everyone knows to stay TF away from facebook. Unless you're selling something, then definitely sell to them. Because they're dumb af and will probably buy it treat the simpleton how you'd imagine Eirlich Bachmann would want to be treated.
 
2020-12-03 10:58:25 PM  

Rereading TekWar: Diddums.

Why is complaining about college educated people's jobs going to cheap foreign labor OK, but if you complain about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs, you're a deplorable, racist, xenophobe?


I can't say I recall Carrier importing Mexicans to Indianapolis.  This analogy might need work.
 
2020-12-03 11:12:45 PM  

Rapmaster2000: Rereading TekWar: Diddums.

Why is complaining about college educated people's jobs going to cheap foreign labor OK, but if you complain about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs, you're a deplorable, racist, xenophobe?

I can't say I recall Carrier importing Mexicans to Indianapolis.  This analogy might need work.


Because your analogy proves it wrong? Logical fallacy much?
Answer the question, why when it comes to asking the question about blue collar jobs one is labeled as racist, but white collar you're not?
 
2020-12-03 11:38:31 PM  

el_pilgrim: but white collar you're not?


You're not?
 
2020-12-03 11:52:42 PM  

RightWingWacko: HempHead: "Pick one of the Asians, I can get them cheaper'

It's not necessarily that they can get them cheaper it's that once they get them they are pretty much slaves and OWNED by the company.  If they leave the company they have to go back home to India.


At the time he got the Chinese cheaper.
 
2020-12-04 12:03:47 AM  
We get a lot of visa workers in my office.  Thing is they tend to be very nice and competent.  When they're onshored the first thing they do is apply for permanent residency and once they get that they're gone.  Just goes to show that they're being hired for their price even though, as I said, they are nice and competent.
 
2020-12-04 12:16:17 AM  

JasonOfOrillia: We get a lot of visa workers in my office.  Thing is they tend to be very nice and competent.  When they're onshored the first thing they do is apply for permanent residency and once they get that they're gone.  Just goes to show that they're being hired for their price even though, as I said, they are nice and competent.


Competent? Maybe 2 out of 10 in my experience.
 
2020-12-04 12:57:02 AM  

JasonOfOrillia: We get a lot of visa workers in my office.  Thing is they tend to be very nice and competent.  When they're onshored the first thing they do is apply for permanent residency and once they get that they're gone.  Just goes to show that they're being hired for their price even though, as I said, they are nice and competent.


That's on your company. Plenty stick around at companies where they are happy. Some companies will even pay for family-based green cards (faster, cheaper) because they're not interested in dragging out the process as long as possible.
 
2020-12-04 1:05:20 AM  

stevesporn2000: JasonOfOrillia: We get a lot of visa workers in my office.  Thing is they tend to be very nice and competent.  When they're onshored the first thing they do is apply for permanent residency and once they get that they're gone.  Just goes to show that they're being hired for their price even though, as I said, they are nice and competent.

That's on your company. Plenty stick around at companies where they are happy. Some companies will even pay for family-based green cards (faster, cheaper) because they're not interested in dragging out the process as long as possible.


Some companies also treat them like share croppers. Like chattel labor that can't quit no matter how poorly you treat them.
 
2020-12-04 5:31:04 AM  
Just imagine how bad it will be when companies embrace remote workers.... They won't need to deal with H1Bs at all, can pay them 1/10th the wage... And they will do a great job.
 
2020-12-04 7:38:36 AM  

Rereading TekWar: Diddums.

Why is complaining about college educated people's jobs going to cheap foreign labor OK, but if you complain about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs, you're a deplorable, racist, xenophobe?


That depends, what do you say when you make that complaint?
 
2020-12-04 7:58:18 AM  

el_pilgrim: Rapmaster2000: Rereading TekWar: Diddums.

Why is complaining about college educated people's jobs going to cheap foreign labor OK, but if you complain about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs, you're a deplorable, racist, xenophobe?

I can't say I recall Carrier importing Mexicans to Indianapolis.  This analogy might need work.

Because your analogy proves it wrong? Logical fallacy much?
Answer the question, why when it comes to asking the question about blue collar jobs one is labeled as racist, but white collar you're not?


Okay, I'll bite. Mainly it's because for the blue-collar jobs, many people feel that the foreign (undocumented, illegal, whatever) labor isn't taking those jobs from anyone, as Americans don't generally want to do then, or won't do them at the pay rate that is offered. So when people say that they are taking jobs, it tends to be said for some other, less noble, reason.

For the H1Bs, many companies are asking for qualifications that no one has (6 years experience on a language only 3 years old) or just outright lying about there being no qualified American applicants and then getting cheaper (somewhat indentured) labor through the visas. Though I have no doubt that some of the people complaining are still racist, in this instance they're motives are masked by the actual truth of lost American jobs.
 
2020-12-04 8:00:27 AM  

greatgodyoshi: el_pilgrim: Rapmaster2000: Rereading TekWar: Diddums.

Why is complaining about college educated people's jobs going to cheap foreign labor OK, but if you complain about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs, you're a deplorable, racist, xenophobe?

I can't say I recall Carrier importing Mexicans to Indianapolis.  This analogy might need work.

Because your analogy proves it wrong? Logical fallacy much?
Answer the question, why when it comes to asking the question about blue collar jobs one is labeled as racist, but white collar you're not?

Okay, I'll bite. Mainly it's because for the blue-collar jobs, many people feel that the foreign (undocumented, illegal, whatever) labor isn't taking those jobs from anyone, as Americans don't generally want to do then, or won't do them at the pay rate that is offered. So when people say that they are taking jobs, it tends to be said for some other, less noble, reason.

For the H1Bs, many companies are asking for qualifications that no one has (6 years experience on a language only 3 years old) or just outright lying about there being no qualified American applicants and then getting cheaper (somewhat indentured) labor through the visas. Though I have no doubt that some of the people complaining are still racist, in this instance they're motives are masked by the actual truth of lost American jobs.


Damn it. I read that twice and still missed the "their" misspell. Sonofabiatch!
 
2020-12-04 8:05:16 AM  
H1B needs to be shut down for tech. 

When Perdue Parma needs to make a world-class drug-pushing machine, they develop and train an army of pushers to get it done.

Why can't Facebook meet that example of American Excellence?
 
2020-12-04 8:09:42 AM  

Rereading TekWar: Diddums.

Why is complaining about college educated people's jobs going to cheap foreign labor OK, but if you complain about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs, you're a deplorable, racist, xenophobe?


You are correct. They are the same except for the class
White middle class moderates have a lot in common with Republicans in that they hate the poor and blame the poor for being that way and they own stocks.
They feel that unlike those lazy poor they have earned a right to their  wages
Because these middle class conservatives most likely identify as Democrats , the kneejerk reaction is to attack someone as in some way bigoted while in truth they just don't want to admit their own greed allows them to justify hurting the lower class and their own hypocracy.
 
2020-12-04 8:28:05 AM  

stevesporn2000: JasonOfOrillia: We get a lot of visa workers in my office.  Thing is they tend to be very nice and competent.  When they're onshored the first thing they do is apply for permanent residency and once they get that they're gone.  Just goes to show that they're being hired for their price even though, as I said, they are nice and competent.

That's on your company. Plenty stick around at companies where they are happy. Some companies will even pay for family-based green cards (faster, cheaper) because they're not interested in dragging out the process as long as possible.


Actually they're all brought in under contract to an Indian contracting company.  The agreement with my organization is that we can't hire their workers without paying extra fees.  Us hiring these people is dependent on us paying the extra fee, which does happen sometimes but rarely.
 
2020-12-04 11:19:00 AM  
As long as they are doing the needful.
 
2020-12-04 11:19:30 AM  
I'm a corporate immigration attorney, so I'm getting a kick out of this.

Here's what's going on: H-1B workers (and often times their employers) are interested in getting their green cards. The H-1B has a ton of restrictions specific to the kind of work one can perform, with geographic restrictions, specific employer restrictions, repeating costs, and a ton of potential regulatory pitfalls. The green card is essentially US citizenship without the right to vote or serve on a jury and allows them to work for any employer in almost any job in the US.

The first step of the process is the PERM - which is the test of the labor market to show that the future green card holder is not displacing a US worker. For this test you're required to advertise the job and collect resumes - if a US worker (either citizen or green card holder) applies and is qualified on paper, then you fail the test and have to wait 6 months before trying again. But it's not like you have to fire the H-1B if the test fails - you just can't proceed with the PERM filing and have to try again after a waiting period. And similarly, you don't have to offer the job to the qualified American who applies - you just can't file the PERM for the H-1B.

The system is baffling and frustrating for everyone. Lets say you're trying to do the PERM process for an H-1B who has been with the company for a few years, and a qualified US worker applies. The employer/manager gets really pissed off at the attorney  - "what do you mean we can't file the PERM? We just spent $10,000 on this process and we have try again in 6 months with no guarantee of success? Mr. H-1B is a great worker and we want to support him but now he's threatening to leave to another employer who claims they can guarantee they can complete his PERM." The H-1B employee is worried that we can't complete his PERM in time before the H-1B times out - by the end of their 6th year of H-1B status, they need to have an approved I-140 at least (step right after the PERM) or else they have to leave the country. The American worker is pissed off they applied for a job opening that doesn't exist even though they're qualified. And the attorney is frustrated because they want to get the green card for the H-1B but the process is really at the mercy of the US labor market which is outside their control, and now both the employer and H-1B thinks he must be incompetent because a qualified worker applied.

I've gotten managers and H-1B holders who have asked me to cheat the test before. "What if we just say no one applied. Who's gonna know?" Now there are actual ways you can legally limit the number of potential applicants. The regulations (which are decades out of date) only require you to post ads in a certain number of places - in your internal recruitment system, in newspapers, on state workforce boards, and then 2 other places drawn from a list. You could choose to advertise on Monster or Indeed. . . or you can advertise them on school boards and on radio. So rather than internet ads, you can have an ad air on 2 am on Tuesday on an AM station, and also on school boards advertising jobs that require 6 years of experience to recent grads.

From the press release, basically Facebook was cheating the PERM labor market test. They didn't post the ads on their internal site, and possibly they just disregarded any applicants. When you file the PERM you actually don't include any evidence of the job postings or applicants. There's a 5% chance you get the random quality check audit, and it's only then that you have to submit the job advertisements and applications. So you can BS your way through PERMs and take the chance that no one is going to double check your work unless you get audited.
 
2020-12-04 11:20:42 AM  

Rereading TekWar: Diddums.

Why is complaining about college educated people's jobs going to cheap foreign labor OK, but if you complain about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs, you're a deplorable, racist, xenophobe?


Pre-COVID, we had an extended period of fairly low unemployment.  For at least the last 4 years, the deplorable, racist xenophobes (i,e. Republicans) have not been complaining about cheap foreign labor taking blue collar jobs.  They're complaining about foreigners coming into this country committing crimes and diluting the "real" America.  And they certainly aren't complaining about chain migration from Slovenia, are they?

I doubt many people you're charging with hypocrisy would suddenly be OK with H-1B visa abuse if the engineers were coming in from Germany instead of India.  They're complaining about an actual threat to American jobs, not using the specter of one to mask xenophobia.
 
2020-12-04 12:08:19 PM  
You can thank our corporate investment class for this mess. They have been strangling out education in this country trying to privatize it for ages. They managed to succeed with the state University system and now it prohibitively expensive unless you are born into wealth, or take out a loan. And it's all for nothing more than dumb greed. Greed for money they'll never even get to spend cause they already have more than they could spend in a lifetime. Easily one of the stupidest things we've allowed to happen in this country.
 
2020-12-04 1:50:44 PM  
All it took was 4 years of a racist xenophobe burning down the country and a nationwide "take your stank ass home" election to bring out the petty vindictiveness of a personal slight against a withering narcissist, against a monopoly who has taken advantage of thousands of employees over many years.

Rustle the jimmies of an untreated mental patient and your corrupt scheme falls apart.
 
2020-12-04 2:40:42 PM  

pearls before swine: Rereading TekWar: Diddums.

I doubt many people you're charging with hypocrisy would suddenly be OK with H-1B visa abuse if the engineers were coming in from Germany instead of India.  They're complaining about an actual threat to American jobs, not using the specter of one to mask xenophobia.


In fact some of them are.  In one of my previous assignments, we had several H1B's from German, France, and England.   Most were from Asia (China, Vietnam, or India).  Once the company started having difficulty getting H1B's approved they switched tactics and opened an office in Mumbai so they could hire dozens of cheap coders and ended up getting rid of most of the US staff.   Quality dropped a ton, but they didn't care... it was cheaper.
 
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