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(Guardian)   "Hundreds of comments vociferously argued why axis inversion was the only way to navigate a game world." And they were wrong   (theguardian.com) divider line
    More: Silly, Perception, Psychology, Sense, Video game, Sensory system, Gamer, Visual perception, Visual system  
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840 clicks; posted to Fandom » on 03 Dec 2020 at 10:36 AM (18 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-12-03 10:25:54 AM  
When the Guardian ran an article asking why a large minority of game players invert the Y axis on their controls - meaning that they push their joypad's thumb stick down to move upwards on the screen - the response was huge.

Should be the z-axis anyway you dolts.
 
2020-12-03 10:39:22 AM  
Inverting the mouse is like controlling your character's vision by placing your hand on top of their head, so if you push "foward" they are going to look down.

Playing a fps with a controller is just silly so I can't comment on that.
 
2020-12-03 10:42:37 AM  
Sounds like a "research" goal worthy of an Ig Nobel prize.
 
2020-12-03 10:46:38 AM  
Flight/space sims ingrained the controls into my brain.  I invert my controller so i don't have to think about moving and/or looking around.

/also pisses the kids off when they play after me
//bonus
 
2020-12-03 10:53:12 AM  
I don't understand how this is even a debate. When you look up in real life, you tilt your head back, and when you look down you tilt it down. Why the hell would you want a controller or key to do the opposite?
 
2020-12-03 10:56:31 AM  
On a controller with an analog stick, I invert. Pull back on the stick to look up, just like I tilt my head back to look up. On a computer I don't, because I think of the mouse pointer not the point of view. (even though the pointer is invisible)
 
2020-12-03 10:58:05 AM  
The good old days of joystick control of flight and mech sims is why I always invert the y-axis for camera in a 3d world.
 
2020-12-03 10:59:02 AM  
To confuse things even further, it depends whether I'm using a control pad or control stick.

Pads are "normal", up for up, down for down.

But my brain doesn't use "up" or "down" with a stick*; it's push forward and pull back**.

*phrasing?
**phrasing!
 
2020-12-03 11:07:27 AM  

OldJames: On a controller with an analog stick, I invert. Pull back on the stick to look up, just like I tilt my head back to look up. On a computer I don't, because I think of the mouse pointer not the point of view. (even though the pointer is invisible)


I will say most games require you to use the free camera with your mouse and that makes sense, but as far as movement goes, if you're using the mouse to move, you likely haven't mastered keybinding.  When moving with the keyboard direction binds, the above key is always down and the below key is always down.  Heathens :D
 
2020-12-03 11:08:24 AM  
*below key is always up

/coffee is brewing as I type
 
2020-12-03 11:10:57 AM  
Huh. For me, it depends on the game, but I'm not typically an inverter.

CSB: I play MMOs & simulation games on PC, typically, and when I do so I use a game controller like the Nostromo or, right now, the Tartarus Pro.

Because it's a thumbstick, and because I typically have to hold it in position for long stretches to move forward, I don't use the normal or inverted layout - I instead rotate it 90 degrees counter-clockwise, so that I'm essentially "closing" my thumb to move forward, "opening" my thumb to move backward, and "pushing" or "pulling" my thumb to move right & left, respectively. I do this because it eases the stress on the proximal interphalangeal joint of my left thumb (read "my hand gets less sore when I play for hours") when I'm holding that button down to move forward while I use the same hand to press other buttons on the gamepad.
 
2020-12-03 11:11:59 AM  
It's not that hard.  Your head is the joystick, and someone pulls back on the top of your head, so which way do your eyes naturally move?  Up, that's where.

Someone pushes the top of your head forward, what do you see?  (This exercize is left to the class...)
 
2020-12-03 11:15:26 AM  

McGrits: The good old days of joystick control of flight and mech sims is why I always invert the y-axis for camera in a 3d world.


See, that's why it depends on the game. If I'm playing in third-person mode moving an avatar, W is forward & S is back. If I'm playing in a flight or mech sim where I'm piloting something that's supposed to have a yoke or controller that changes the attitude of a vehicle, W is yoke forward (attitude down) & S is yoke backwards (attitude up.) And, as I posted before, it also depends on the controller - I'll change the layout to ensure optimal physical comfort regardless of the game's intent.

The weird & neat thing is that I don't somehow seem to screw that up during play - if it's immersive enough, I completely forget about the fact that I have differing layouts for different games.
 
2020-12-03 11:15:57 AM  

BlackBeard The Pirate: It's not that hard.  Your head is the joystick, and someone pulls back on the top of your head, so which way do your eyes naturally move?  Up, that's where.

Someone pushes the top of your head forward, what do you see?  (This exercize is left to the class...)


Yeah, it really does seem to boil down to "first-person vs. third-person," doesn't it?
 
2020-12-03 11:17:18 AM  
I invert the Y and I've never played flight simulators. With a stick it just makes more sense for my brain. I thought I was the normal one and then my friends pointed out that I was a freak.

Trying to play the other way actually makes me nauseous.
 
2020-12-03 11:19:04 AM  

FormlessOne: Huh. For me, it depends on the game, but I'm not typically an inverter.

CSB: I play MMOs & simulation games on PC, typically, and when I do so I use a game controller like the Nostromo or, right now, the Tartarus Pro.

Because it's a thumbstick, and because I typically have to hold it in position for long stretches to move forward, I don't use the normal or inverted layout - I instead rotate it 90 degrees counter-clockwise, so that I'm essentially "closing" my thumb to move forward, "opening" my thumb to move backward, and "pushing" or "pulling" my thumb to move right & left, respectively. I do this because it eases the stress on the proximal interphalangeal joint of my left thumb (read "my hand gets less sore when I play for hours") when I'm holding that button down to move forward while I use the same hand to press other buttons on the gamepad.


That's an interesting viewpoint.  For PC gaming, I always set all motion on the mouse (a three main button, preferably).  Run forward is the middle, back is the right, and the main fire is the left.  Y axis is "inverted" (I dislike this misnomer!), so push forward on the mouse acts just like a flight sim...

The main two reasons for this was to give me the ability to run and gun in first person shooters without fatigue, and to keep my left hand free to swig my beer whilst on a "KILLING SPREE!".
 
2020-12-03 11:27:34 AM  

BlackBeard The Pirate: FormlessOne: Huh. For me, it depends on the game, but I'm not typically an inverter.

CSB: I play MMOs & simulation games on PC, typically, and when I do so I use a game controller like the Nostromo or, right now, the Tartarus Pro.

Because it's a thumbstick, and because I typically have to hold it in position for long stretches to move forward, I don't use the normal or inverted layout - I instead rotate it 90 degrees counter-clockwise, so that I'm essentially "closing" my thumb to move forward, "opening" my thumb to move backward, and "pushing" or "pulling" my thumb to move right & left, respectively. I do this because it eases the stress on the proximal interphalangeal joint of my left thumb (read "my hand gets less sore when I play for hours") when I'm holding that button down to move forward while I use the same hand to press other buttons on the gamepad.

That's an interesting viewpoint.  For PC gaming, I always set all motion on the mouse (a three main button, preferably).  Run forward is the middle, back is the right, and the main fire is the left.  Y axis is "inverted" (I dislike this misnomer!), so push forward on the mouse acts just like a flight sim...

The main two reasons for this was to give me the ability to run and gun in first person shooters without fatigue, and to keep my left hand free to swig my beer whilst on a "KILLING SPREE!".


It's specific to third-person, "camera-over-shoulder" MMOs, at least for me. I use the mouse to adjust camera facing, toggle autorun & cursor mode, and the gamepad to run combat commands (action bars, basic UI interaction, etc.), keeping the keyboard free primarily for text chatting if & when necessary.

Typically, left hand's always on the Tartarus, right hand's on the G700, and the keyboard's a social device, so it doesn't get used as much.
 
2020-12-03 11:34:08 AM  

FormlessOne: BlackBeard The Pirate: It's not that hard.  Your head is the joystick, and someone pulls back on the top of your head, so which way do your eyes naturally move?  Up, that's where.

Someone pushes the top of your head forward, what do you see?  (This exercize is left to the class...)

Yeah, it really does seem to boil down to "first-person vs. third-person," doesn't it?


Not even that. In both first and third person I invert controls on a controller.

I couldn't tell you which standard I use with the mouse in WoW though. "Gun to my head, have to answer" gives me a 50% chance of death.
 
2020-12-03 11:34:38 AM  

FormlessOne: BlackBeard The Pirate: FormlessOne: Huh. For me, it depends on the game, but I'm not typically an inverter.

CSB: I play MMOs & simulation games on PC, typically, and when I do so I use a game controller like the Nostromo or, right now, the Tartarus Pro.

Because it's a thumbstick, and because I typically have to hold it in position for long stretches to move forward, I don't use the normal or inverted layout - I instead rotate it 90 degrees counter-clockwise, so that I'm essentially "closing" my thumb to move forward, "opening" my thumb to move backward, and "pushing" or "pulling" my thumb to move right & left, respectively. I do this because it eases the stress on the proximal interphalangeal joint of my left thumb (read "my hand gets less sore when I play for hours") when I'm holding that button down to move forward while I use the same hand to press other buttons on the gamepad.

That's an interesting viewpoint.  For PC gaming, I always set all motion on the mouse (a three main button, preferably).  Run forward is the middle, back is the right, and the main fire is the left.  Y axis is "inverted" (I dislike this misnomer!), so push forward on the mouse acts just like a flight sim...

The main two reasons for this was to give me the ability to run and gun in first person shooters without fatigue, and to keep my left hand free to swig my beer whilst on a "KILLING SPREE!".

It's specific to third-person, "camera-over-shoulder" MMOs, at least for me. I use the mouse to adjust camera facing, toggle autorun & cursor mode, and the gamepad to run combat commands (action bars, basic UI interaction, etc.), keeping the keyboard free primarily for text chatting if & when necessary.

Typically, left hand's always on the Tartarus, right hand's on the G700, and the keyboard's a social device, so it doesn't get used as much.


I have to admit that after 30+ years in IT, and even more time spent on gaming, I have a seriously overdeveloped right trapezius (which my spouse refers to as my "mouse muscle").  It's roughly the size of a large avocado half, and it does get undue attention from health care professionals.
 
2020-12-03 11:41:27 AM  
I don't even remember if mine is inverted or not.
 
2020-12-03 11:53:09 AM  

Lord Limo Zeen: Flight/space sims ingrained the controls into my brain.  I invert my controller so i don't have to think about moving and/or looking around.

/also pisses the kids off when they play after me
//bonus


The default controls on Star Wars: Squadrons is up for up/down for down.

Anyone who does this on anything remotely resembling a fight sim should be fired.
 
2020-12-03 11:53:50 AM  

Thudfark: I don't understand how this is even a debate. When you look up in real life, you tilt your head back, and when you look down you tilt it down. Why the hell would you want a controller or key to do the opposite?


But that's inverted. You pull your head back to look up, just like pulling the joystick back.
 
2020-12-03 11:59:11 AM  
I read another article about this a while back, and one of the things it pointed out was that older gamers were more likely to use inverted y-axis. IIRC it was related to playing early flying games, where you had to pull back to go up. I think this is true for me, think of even the old Star Wars arcade game where you twisted the joystick back to aim upwards.

That said, I found I don't invert the y-axis if I'm using a mouse, only if I'm using a controller. But I can't just switch, I've literally had to give up on games that don't let you invert the axis.
 
2020-12-03 12:17:20 PM  
I'm a y-inverter. It's the best way for me to play. If you're not a y-inverter then that's ok too. On the other hand, x-inverters, are f***ing psychopaths.

/s
 
2020-12-03 12:26:23 PM  
I'm not a gamer, but I worked for a long time for Pandromeda, makers of MojoWorld. MojoWorld is a fractal planet generator, and one moves about the planet with mouse and keys...

There are THREE different mouse modes. One is First Person Shooter, another is Flight Sim, and then the one the artists insisted on is "Camera Drag". When you drag with the mouse pointer in the scene, it's as if you're dragging the view around.

FPS - move mouse left, view moves right. move mouse up, view moves down.
FlightSim - move mouse left, view moves right. move mouse up, view moves up.

Camera drag - move mouse left, view moves left! move mouse up, view moves up.

We joked about how farked up it would be to have that fourth mode, where moving the mouse left will move the view left, but moving the mouse up would move the view down.
 
2020-12-03 1:01:00 PM  

Sarah Jessica Farker: move mouse left, view moves right


wait, what?
 
2020-12-03 1:08:54 PM  

Telos: Thudfark: I don't understand how this is even a debate. When you look up in real life, you tilt your head back, and when you look down you tilt it down. Why the hell would you want a controller or key to do the opposite?

But that's inverted. You pull your head back to look up, just like pulling the joystick back.


Doesn't matter whether you call it inverted or not, I don't understand why others don't do this. It's counter intuitive regardless of the viewing plane or in person view. You want to go faster? You lean forward. You want to go balls out? You push the throttle forward or step down on the gas pedal. You want to stop? You stand up or lean back, throttle back or lift your foot off the pedal. The only way it isn't counter intuitive is if you have something moving on an x/y grid where up/down is up/down and left/right is left/right because you are mimicking what you see. When you get the z axis involved, the mechanics should be the same as in life regardless of what buttons or mouse movements you use.
 
2020-12-03 1:24:32 PM  

DerAppie: Sarah Jessica Farker: move mouse left, view moves right

wait, what?


In the real world, as one turns one's head to the left, the objects in one's view "disappear" to the right.

In flight sim and FPS mouse interactions, as one moves one's mouse to the left, the objects in one's view "disappear" TO THE RIGHT.
 
2020-12-03 1:41:20 PM  
Back in the day, I'd play MS Flight Simulator 4 with "normal" down-is-up controls, then I'd get my ass kicked playing NES's Top Gun (up-is-up) at a friends house.

/Got my revenge with the hockey game though...
//Discovered if you don't press any buttons in the face-off, the puck gets passed to one of your players.
///Dunked a lot of goals on him that way.
 
2020-12-03 1:51:02 PM  

Fursecution: Back in the day, I'd play MS Flight Simulator 4 with "normal" down-is-up controls, then I'd get my ass kicked playing NES's Top Gun (up-is-up) at a friends house.

/Got my revenge with the hockey game though...
//Discovered if you don't press any buttons in the face-off, the puck gets passed to one of your players.
///Dunked a lot of goals on him that way.


Blades of Steel??
 
2020-12-03 2:08:09 PM  

Sarah Jessica Farker: DerAppie: Sarah Jessica Farker: move mouse left, view moves right

wait, what?

In the real world, as one turns one's head to the left, the objects in one's view "disappear" to the right.

In flight sim and FPS mouse interactions, as one moves one's mouse to the left, the objects in one's view "disappear" TO THE RIGHT.


Ah, the view doesn't move, the view window moves.
Cause in the real world (and in games) the environment isn't the thing that is moving. So the view window moves, and it moves to the left. Which, yes, causes things to drop from view from the right.

Confusion cleared up.
 
2020-12-03 2:55:52 PM  

Thudfark: Doesn't matter whether you call it inverted or not, I don't understand why others don't do this. It's counter intuitive regardless of the viewing plane or in person view. You want to go faster? You lean forward. You want to go balls out? You push the throttle forward or step down on the gas pedal. You want to stop? You stand up or lean back, throttle back or lift your foot off the pedal. The only way it isn't counter intuitive is if you have something moving on an x/y grid where up/down is up/down and left/right is left/right because you are mimicking what you see. When you get the z axis involved, the mechanics should be the same as in life regardless of what buttons or mouse movements you use.


But that's movement, not looking. The whole inversion argument is about looking, not moving or changing speed. No one inverts the movement controls, just the camera controls. Even if you're using a real-life camera, you pull down on the back to make the lense look upwards.
 
2020-12-03 3:57:29 PM  
Count me in the inverted crowd. I've likened it to controlling a camera on a tripod. A helpful illustration:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-12-03 4:22:19 PM  
BlackBeard The Pirate:Someone pushes the top of your head forward, what do you see?  (This exercize is left to the class...)

I see a big hairy ball of fat.  What do you see?
 
2020-12-03 4:26:59 PM  
It never occurred to me to mentally attach the motion of the analog stick to the back, top, or front of the character's head.

Flight sims are definitely inverted, but I can go either way for everything else.
 
2020-12-03 4:36:57 PM  

Snotnose: BlackBeard The Pirate:Someone pushes the top of your head forward, what do you see?  (This exercize is left to the class...)

I see a big hairy ball of fat.  What do you see?


I actually see two of them.
 
2020-12-03 5:30:30 PM  
This topic is a perfect example of why you do not allow 4chan to discuss videogames.
 
2020-12-03 6:00:27 PM  

Marcos P: Fursecution: Back in the day, I'd play MS Flight Simulator 4 with "normal" down-is-up controls, then I'd get my ass kicked playing NES's Top Gun (up-is-up) at a friends house.

/Got my revenge with the hockey game though...
//Discovered if you don't press any buttons in the face-off, the puck gets passed to one of your players.
///Dunked a lot of goals on him that way.

Blades of Steel??


No idea. Didn't play it too much after I put up a thirty-burger on him. Original Nintendo.
 
2020-12-03 6:58:36 PM  
My son uses up for up and down for down for spaceflight in Battlefront II and Squadrons.

I have tried to explain to him that he is wrong, but there really isn't a compelling argument, only: "This is how the pros do it because of real airplanes."

It's very frustrating being totally correct for no good reason.
 
2020-12-03 7:39:41 PM  
Flight sims/Mech sims are inverted, everything is regular.  Can't say I do much inverted anymore, haven't had a joystick since the fun old days of Tie Fighter/X-Wing Alliance/Wing Commander and Privateer/Freespace.  Did play Elite Dangerous with the mouse and keyboard but fell away from it, maybe have to go back and try again to steal hundreds of hours from my life.
 
2020-12-03 7:57:48 PM  
In flight simulators, always. Otherwise, forward means up.
 
2020-12-03 8:32:24 PM  
Marcos P:
OldJames:
BlackBeard The Pirate:
I won a math debate:

[stick on back of head argument]

This explanation falls apart when considering horizontal motion, moving the stick to the left would make you look to the right, but no one sets up the controls that way,
 
2020-12-03 9:27:55 PM  
When you're on a rollercoaster and you find yourself facing forward and pointed towards the ground, you're going down not up. Why the hell would you want to push forward on a joystick to go up? When you're leaning back in your seat you're looking up. It makes sense then that if you pull back on the control stick you'll go up.
 
2020-12-03 9:41:30 PM  

Birnone: When you're on a rollercoaster and you find yourself facing forward and pointed towards the ground, you're going down not up. Why the hell would you want to push forward on a joystick to go up? When you're leaning back in your seat you're looking up. It makes sense then that if you pull back on the control stick you'll go up.


I give forward going both down and up on a roller coaster.

This may be the silliest version of your argument I've ever seen. Rollercoasters... Wow.
 
2020-12-03 10:15:34 PM  

Lord Limo Zeen: Flight/space sims ingrained the controls into my brain.  I invert my controller so i don't have to think about moving and/or looking around.

/also pisses the kids off when they play after me
//bonus


Ditto for me. I spent many hours on my Commodore 64 playing fighter-plane games, and it's just ingrained in me now.

I'm not a gamer anymore, but when I tried to play a FPS a few years ago without it being inverted, I was spraying bullets either at my feet or at the clouds.

And in my mind, I'm not pushing the joystick up to look down, I'm pushing it forward.
 
2020-12-03 10:25:47 PM  

Faraday's Child: Marcos P:
OldJames:
BlackBeard The Pirate:
I won a math debate:
[stick on back of head argument]

This explanation falls apart when considering horizontal motion, moving the stick to the left would make you look to the right, but no one sets up the controls that way,


In an airplane, when I move the stick to the left, I tilt in that direction. Right, I tilt right. Towards me (back), I tilt back. Away from me (forwards), I tilt forwards.

The plane moves in the direction I move the stick.

The non-inverted people are like using a tiller on a sailboat: to turn port you push starboard.
 
2020-12-03 11:11:33 PM  
View controls: normal
Flight controls: inverted

Just checked my no man's sky settings to make sure I wasnt imagining that this was how I had it set up. First person in both.

Probably goes back to xwing/tiefighter
 
2020-12-04 8:49:29 AM  
The real question is why gamers use wasd when rdfg is so much better.
 
2020-12-04 10:24:48 AM  

Gnaglor: The real question is why gamers use wasd when rdfg is so much better.


WASD is discriminatory, RDFG is AZERTY inclusive.
 
2020-12-04 2:13:41 PM  
Well, not so much "wrong" as "pointless".
 
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