The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

Specifically what would that leadership do differently?

They would act instead of looking for Republican approval before they say or do anything.

This is not complicated and it's been the answer for thread after thread after thread after thread and still you act as though this question has never been answered. You're not asking it in good faith anymore, you really don't want an answer you just want doing nothing and pointing at Republicans to be an acceptable style of governing. It's not. It doesn't work. It's failed. And yet you need justification after justification after justification before even considering doing something a little bit differently.

Stop asking bad faith questions that have been answered time and time again. You have your answer, now get to work or stop asking the question every goddamn thread, it's getting tiresome to see people act stupid when they're (I assume) not.

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: Spartapuss: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

And what exactly should the strategy be? Be specific and show your work.

Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

So use tools you have to do stuff you can do? Things, you want them to do things?

It would be nice, for a change. Big things. Nibbling around the edges and doing almost nothing isn't working, if you haven't noticed. Trump winning in 2016 should have been a giant warning sign but it's clear that you're completely ignoring it. Nothing I can do about that, that's on you to learn from mistakes.

It must suck knowing that you'll never live to see your goals come to fruition.

It does, especially when it's people who claim to agree with my goals who are the ones preventing them from being realized.

But you see your not helping at all. You are supervising a construction site, telling all the builders they are doing it wrong without offering any insight into how to do it better.

I've offered specifics, you offer nonsense. Have a good one.

Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: BigSquibowski: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.

I simply have no farks left to give for fascists and fascist enablers in either political party. We are four years away from electing a dictator, it's time for Democrats to act with some urgency to prevent that because Republicans are going to use every ounce of their power and will to make it happen.

Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.

Fark that, this shiathole country isn't worth dying for. This is what you want, you fight for it. I'm out.

Snatch Bandergrip: AdmirableSnackbar: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Hell, they can't even figure out why they're mad at me other than insufficient loyalty and deference to The Party.


Brother, I'll be straight with you, I find you frequently exasperating myself, but here's how I read your schtick:

The Republican Party is beyond redemption.  There is no floor to their corruption, hate, greed, and treachery.  There is no point in harping on them, because they are a black hole of awfulness unworthy of debate.

The Democratic Party, by contrast, is deeply flawed, but not beyond redemption.  We argue about what Democrats should do far more than Republicans because the ostensible ideals of the party are worth fighting for.

You complain about Democrats because we can be better.  Republicans cannot, and thus it is pointless to argue about them.

Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: I've offered specifics,

You've literally offered zero specifics. "ACT!" and "DO THINGS!" are literally the least specific things one could say.

When I asked you for specifics you screamed at me that my question was not in good faith. If you have any actual specifics you would like to discuss, I'm happy to. But entertaining you any further at this point is silly.

We're talking about too broad a topic to offer specifics on any one thing. Ultimately it comes down to Democrats need to make an effort to make things happen, not ceding every argument to Republicans and letting Republicans control every conversation, as Schumer is doing here.

There's nothing specific in this case to offer except "do what you want, fark what Republicans want."

But even that's just too much for you to comprehend, so I can't imagine discussing policy implementation to you. It would take centuries and you're not worth the time.

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.

There goal is to do nothing so that government shivles and dies. That is a lot easy than trying to get thing done. Look if your apartment was on fire one guy could block the door and keep everyone from getting out safety, but it would take some teamwork to put out the fire and fix the damage.

OK? And?

Dude I'm asking you to clarify exactly what you want done. Both the goal and a strategy for getting there. I'm guessing I'm going to be waiting a long time.

You just put out a paragraph of complete nonsense, you didn't ask anything.

Ok I'm done giving you the benefit of the doubt, stop being useless if you ever want to be taken seriously.

Benefit of the doubt for what? You like living under trickle-down economics? You like when police lynch Black people? You like not having basic services that citizens of every developed country enjoy?

I'm done giving YOU the benefit of the doubt, ultimately you don't want to change any of those things.

SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.

So, you want the Democrats to hold a gun to America's proverbial head and use the threat of shutting down the Federal government to force the GOP to operate in good faith?

No, I want Democrats to act without regard to Republicans at all. Disregard them. Don't listen to them, don't let them control the narrative. I've never seen that in my lifetime and I'm not exactly young.

I'm not sure why Democrats always need Republicans to lead them around, but that's what we've had for the last 40 years.

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.

There goal is to do nothing so that government shivles and dies. That is a lot easy than trying to get thing done. Look if your apartment was on fire one guy could block the door and keep everyone from getting out safety, but it would take some teamwork to put out the fire and fix the damage.

OK? And?

Dude I'm asking you to clarify exactly what you want done. Both the goal and a strategy for getting there. I'm guessing I'm going to be waiting a long time.

You just put out a paragraph of complete nonsense, you didn't ask anything.

hugadarn: I dont know how hamming home the hypocrisy isn't a way of grabbing the narrative.

Because there's no positive narrative coming from Democrats. The conversation is still about what Republicans say and do, and not at all about what Democrats want to do or are doing. It's not grabbing control of the narrative, it's flat-out ceding the narrative to Republicans.

How is this so hard to understand?

Graffito: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

Absolutely nobody thinks that.  Exaggeration doesn't help.  Whining about democrats doesn't help.  Why aren't you and your Bernie Brethren just "doing something?"  Why aren't they bringing about Medicare for All and student loan forgiveness?  They should just pass the legislation without caring what democrats or repubs think.

What's that you say?  They don't have the votes?  They don't hold enough seats in congress?  Well, figure it out!  That's their job.

You're a sociopath.

Utnapishtim: If that's the case why do they need to "grab the narrative"? It's preaching to the choir. They are only losing the narrative battle because of the bubble.

Because, since you haven't noticed, the narrative outside of the Republican bubble is the same as the narrative inside the bubble. And that's true only because there is no competing narrative anywhere. Democrats don't have plans. They don't have ideas. They don't even have values.

For instance, in the Democratic primary this year, Democrats were spouting Republican talking points against policies that Democratic voters prefer almost universally. That contributed to the decades-long narrative that universal health care is dangerous, irresponsible, and completely unworkable. Which in turn made people vote against it, and now we won't get it for another decade at the earliest.

That's what you're supporting here, and it's not helpful in any way, shape, or form.

BigSquibowski: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.

I simply have no farks left to give for fascists and fascist enablers in either political party. We are four years away from electing a dictator, it's time for Democrats to act with some urgency to prevent that because Republicans are going to use every ounce of their power and will to make it happen.

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.

So I can't do all of that AND post on Fark about how intransigent Democrats are?

Why do you assume that I'm not calling my POS representative and saying the same things to them? That I'm not also working with and supporting activist groups? Some of us can walk and chew gum.

Nothing you're doing is working. Whining about the fact that I've noticed that, while you don't really seem to care, doesn't solve anything.

What could your representative possibly do with anything you have written here. How is "do something dammit" constructive.

My representative is not on Fark. We're discussing shiat here, not plotting actions because they're not our actions to take.

You think you're on the coaching staff of your favorite football team, don't you? You think that their performance is tied directly to your personal actions and decisions, right? That's the level of idiocy and anal-retentive stupidity you're showing here.

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: Ok, so how does shiatting on Democrats in this thread work to defeat the Republicans

We need to defeat the Republicans in the Democratic Party, especially the ones in leadership position.

how does it enable the Democratic party to pass legislation when the GOP led Senate won't even consider going anywhere near the negotiating table?

It doesn't, because that's their job. It's not my job to help them, certainly not when they act deliberately helpless and look to the GOP to make everything right.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy and what your "job" is in it. Hint: it's not over when you cast your vote.

And here I am, exhorting Democrats - for whom I voted - to represent their constituents better than they have in decades and you're arguing in bad faith that they should not do that.

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.

So I can't do all of that AND post on Fark about how intransigent Democrats are?

Why do you assume that I'm not calling my POS representative and saying the same things to them? That I'm not also working with and supporting activist groups? Some of us can walk and chew gum.

Nothing you're doing is working. Whining about the fact that I've noticed that, while you don't really seem to care, doesn't solve anything.

Spartapuss: AdmirableSnackbar: Spartapuss: So your specific plan is

You're like the 5th person in this thread to use this rhetorical tactic in bad faith. You should get some sort of prize.

I'm one of many people to point out that nothing you've offered up works within the frame of our government. Don't reflect on that though, everyone else is the asshole.

You know how Republicans do things - terrible things, but that's not related to the point - and then only talk about what they did or want to do in good, favorable terms and refuse to acknowledge anything bad? And you notice how they work to change public opinion on things towards what they want to do? Start there. Figure that shiat out, Democrats, and stop letting Republicans dictate the terms of the conversation because doing that allows Republicans to shape public opinion and crushes the Democrats' ability to change public opinion.

And then when you get that far, once you get power, you farking USE IT. There was no reason for Democrats to negotiate away parts of the ACA to make Republicans happy, only for Republicans to all vote against it and then use the weaknesses they created in the bill to essentially neuter it. Democrats should have gone full universal health care and then bragged about it instead of letting Republicans win in the end out of some sense of nobility.

I'm sorry if I'm not putting every step of the plan together for you, I'm not a member of Congress or part of the federal government. There's a lot to do to get anything done, I'm saying when you get an opportunity, make it happen instead of letting Republicans control what gets done. Is that too hard for you to understand? It's a strategy and an attitude, the specific uses of the levers of power change from instance to instance. And you know that, or should if you're actually being serious. So either you're not serious about this or you're not discussing this in good faith.

Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Hell, they can't even figure out why they're mad at me other than insufficient loyalty and deference to The Party.

Spartapuss: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

And what exactly should the strategy be? Be specific and show your work.

Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

So use tools you have to do stuff you can do? Things, you want them to do things?

It would be nice, for a change. Big things. Nibbling around the edges and doing almost nothing isn't working, if you haven't noticed. Trump winning in 2016 should have been a giant warning sign but it's clear that you're completely ignoring it. Nothing I can do about that, that's on you to learn from mistakes.

It must suck knowing that you'll never live to see your goals come to fruition.

It does, especially when it's people who claim to agree with my goals who are the ones preventing them from being realized.

SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.

The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.

Exactly. You just ignore the justification, act as if it doesn't exist, and then voila, it's not valid criticism.

Just as I said, thanks for proving the point.

AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

I'm not the one that came into a thread about Republicans being shiatheads and and said let's ignore the Republicans being shiatheads and then started blaming Democrats for Republicans being shiatheads.

I didn't say ignore the Republicans being shiatheads. I'm saying ignore the Republican shiatheads when they whine. Farking kick their ass instead of trying to placate them.

I remember when you whined at me for hours for treating you like a disingenuous centrist. Stop acting like one.

hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.

So, you want the Democrats to hold a gun to America's proverbial head and use the threat of shutting down the Federal government to force the GOP to operate in good faith?

No, I want Democrats to act without regard to Republicans at all. Disregard them. Don't listen to them, don't let them control the narrative. I've never seen that in my lifetime and I'm not exactly young.

I'm not sure why Democrats always need Republicans to lead them around, but that's what we've had for the last 40 years.

I don't disagree with this at all. I'd like to see the Democrats utilize more of the tactics that the GOP uses to get their way, but therein lies the problem. The Democratic party wants a functioning federal government, the GOP doesn't, so they will use that as leverage to get whatever they want. When Democrats are arguing for stricter emissions regulations or healthcare it does nothing for them to threaten to shut down the government, and in fact works against them. The problem is that Democrats have no leverage with which to negotiate since the goals of the GOP and the goals of the Democratic party are in complete opposition to each other. 

You can't negotiate with someone willing and eager to kill the hostage.

That's why you don't negotiate with the GOP. You work to defeat them and do what the fark you want. You know this, right, and are just putting on an act here, right? I certainly hope so.

Spartapuss: So your specific plan is

You're like the 5th person in this thread to use this rhetorical tactic in bad faith. You should get some sort of prize.

bluejeansonfire: HotWingConspiracy: Democrats still don't understand the game.

It's either that, or they understand it just fine because they're controlled opposition paid to pretend to want better things but counted on to take a dive when it matters.

It's pretty evident that the latter is the case. Has been for quite a while.

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

And what exactly should the strategy be? Be specific and show your work.

Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

So use tools you have to do stuff you can do? Things, you want them to do things?

It would be nice, for a change. Big things. Nibbling around the edges and doing almost nothing isn't working, if you haven't noticed. Trump winning in 2016 should have been a giant warning sign but it's clear that you're completely ignoring it. Nothing I can do about that, that's on you to learn from mistakes.

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

And what exactly should the strategy be? Be specific and show your work.

Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.