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6239 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Dec 2020 at 9:48 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-12-02 11:36:41 AM  

The Homer Tax: Sliding Carp: The Homer Tax: SolderGlob: You know how the GOP shut out the entire Democratic party when drafting their Tax Scam bill, then only gave them two hours to read it prior to voting on it?

Democrats need to do that when they have the power. Sadly, they don't have the power going into 2021 to do anything meaningful since the Senate exists, but when they do have power they should wield it the same way the GOP does.

So this is kind of my whole point, right? Democrats *don't* have the power to do anything really, so balling up your fists and screaming "DO SOMETHING!" is pissing into the wind.

They have the power to unleash AOC and the other progressives.  By stifling them, the status quo becomes the most liberal  possible point in the discourse, and things can only move to the right, little by little, ratcheting along as every step is always to the right, and at every step the national Democratic leadership builds a wall at exactly where we are and calls it "the center."

What does "unleash AOC" mean specifically? How specifically are she and other progressives being "stifled?"

Difficulty: moderate Democrats disagreeing with progressive Democrats on things != "stifling" them.


The party reprimanded them for opposing concentration camp funding and criticizing pro-Israeli PACS, often using conservative arguments to do so.
They gave a Republican more attention at the DNC than AOC, a member of their own party.

This is not disagreement.
 
2020-12-02 11:39:35 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: I dont know how hamming home the hypocrisy isn't a way of grabbing the narrative.

Because there's no positive narrative coming from Democrats. The conversation is still about what Republicans say and do, and not at all about what Democrats want to do or are doing. It's not grabbing control of the narrative, it's flat-out ceding the narrative to Republicans.

How is this so hard to understand?


Because it is likely impossible. That's why people are asking for specifics, they don't see how it can work. The right wing media bubble will never allow anything but the right wing narrative through to it's consumers, and the reality based media ends up spending so much time covering the stories generated by the right wing media, that nothing else can get through. And even if it did, its fake news to them anyway. That is not the fault of the Democrats. There is no shortage of detailed plans and good speeches by Democrats, but they will never reach the people that need to hear it.
 
2020-12-02 11:44:58 AM  

Utnapishtim: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: I dont know how hamming home the hypocrisy isn't a way of grabbing the narrative.

Because there's no positive narrative coming from Democrats. The conversation is still about what Republicans say and do, and not at all about what Democrats want to do or are doing. It's not grabbing control of the narrative, it's flat-out ceding the narrative to Republicans.

How is this so hard to understand?

Because it is likely impossible. That's why people are asking for specifics, they don't see how it can work. The right wing media bubble will never allow anything but the right wing narrative through to it's consumers, and the reality based media ends up spending so much time covering the stories generated by the right wing media, that nothing else can get through. And even if it did, its fake news to them anyway. That is not the fault of the Democrats. There is no shortage of detailed plans and good speeches by Democrats, but they will never reach the people that need to hear it.


The idea isn't to pierce the right wing bubble. The idea is to stop basing policy decision on what people in the bubble are going to think about it and go ahead "Just do something." without their input.
If it doesn't reach them, nothing of value was lost. No change from the status quo. Meanwhile, those who aren't in the bubble might see something they like, and the people in the bubble might still benefit from policies even if they don't support the people enacting them, and it will do more to pierce the bubble than any attempt to placate them.
 
2020-12-02 11:48:34 AM  

Utnapishtim: There is no shortage of detailed plans and good speeches by Democrats, but they will never reach the people that need to hear it.


Your definition of "the people that need to hear it" is the problem.  The group that needs to hear are the 40% of the country that doesn't vote in presidential elections, the 60% that doesn't vote in midterm elections, and the 80%+ that don't vote in off-year elections.

The statistics are pretty clear on this - the entirety of political control in the country is based on voter turnout.  We don't need to change the minds of people who are committed to autocracy and authoritarian right-wing blather.
 
2020-12-02 11:48:58 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Last I checked NFL teams aren't democracies.

Neither is this country; we're practically an oligarchy.


Not practically, actually.

The US government was designed and created as a white supremacist oligarchy that pretends towards democracy for marketing purposes. The entire point is to keep the labor class subjugated to the owner class.
 
2020-12-02 11:52:53 AM  

Jake Havechek: Republicans are namby pamby little crybabies when they don't get their way.  Stems from upbringing.  Their parents are probably assholes.


Lorraine you ever have a kid who acts that's way I'll disown you
 
2020-12-02 11:57:40 AM  

The Homer Tax: The GOP literally had all three branches of the government, including both houses for two years and *couldn't even overturn the ACA* which was their single issue in the 6 years since it's inception.


Yep... because there were still a couple Republicans (McCain, Murkowski, Collins) who thought that the ACA was better than nothing, allowing the motion to narrowly fail in the Senate.

Which may be viewed as "the obstructive were successful".
 
2020-12-02 12:05:21 PM  

Sophont: Utnapishtim: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: I dont know how hamming home the hypocrisy isn't a way of grabbing the narrative.

Because there's no positive narrative coming from Democrats. The conversation is still about what Republicans say and do, and not at all about what Democrats want to do or are doing. It's not grabbing control of the narrative, it's flat-out ceding the narrative to Republicans.

How is this so hard to understand?

Because it is likely impossible. That's why people are asking for specifics, they don't see how it can work. The right wing media bubble will never allow anything but the right wing narrative through to it's consumers, and the reality based media ends up spending so much time covering the stories generated by the right wing media, that nothing else can get through. And even if it did, its fake news to them anyway. That is not the fault of the Democrats. There is no shortage of detailed plans and good speeches by Democrats, but they will never reach the people that need to hear it.

The idea isn't to pierce the right wing bubble. The idea is to stop basing policy decision on what people in the bubble are going to think about it and go ahead "Just do something." without their input.
If it doesn't reach them, nothing of value was lost. No change from the status quo. Meanwhile, those who aren't in the bubble might see something they like, and the people in the bubble might still benefit from policies even if they don't support the people enacting them, and it will do more to pierce the bubble than any attempt to placate them.


If that's the case why do they need to "grab the narrative"? It's preaching to the choir. They are only losing the narrative battle because of the bubble.

I don't disagree that it would be good for them to just stop worrying about what Republicans will think, but the truth is they can't really do anything without the political power to do it. Too many state governments and the Senate prevent anything from happening. I don't think we really have enough evidence to say if the party learned those lessons from the Obama Administration or note. They have not had the required power to actually ignore Republicans and push through their agenda.
 
2020-12-02 12:11:48 PM  

Rambino: On a sidenote, I'm all about exploring interesting fetishes, but I just can't get behind vore. Not kink-shaming, but this one honestly makes me uncomfortable. Which is saying something given the shiat I put up with. *sigh-fap*


Try Cody Vore. Maybe with a side of Summer Hart.
 
2020-12-02 12:13:23 PM  

Khellendros: Utnapishtim: There is no shortage of detailed plans and good speeches by Democrats, but they will never reach the people that need to hear it.

Your definition of "the people that need to hear it" is the problem.  The group that needs to hear are the 40% of the country that doesn't vote in presidential elections, the 60% that doesn't vote in midterm elections, and the 80%+ that don't vote in off-year elections.

The statistics are pretty clear on this - the entirety of political control in the country is based on voter turnout.  We don't need to change the minds of people who are committed to autocracy and authoritarian right-wing blather.


People are politically disengaged for a wide variety of reasons. Don't you think that it is risky to pin all of your hopes on a group that has proven that they are not willing to participate? I'm not saying its not worth trying to get them engaged, because it definitely is, but they are not a monolithic voting bloc and some of them are just ignorant and lazy. I don't want to necessarily count on them to save us.
 
2020-12-02 12:15:12 PM  

Utnapishtim: If that's the case why do they need to "grab the narrative"? It's preaching to the choir. They are only losing the narrative battle because of the bubble.


Because, since you haven't noticed, the narrative outside of the Republican bubble is the same as the narrative inside the bubble. And that's true only because there is no competing narrative anywhere. Democrats don't have plans. They don't have ideas. They don't even have values.

For instance, in the Democratic primary this year, Democrats were spouting Republican talking points against policies that Democratic voters prefer almost universally. That contributed to the decades-long narrative that universal health care is dangerous, irresponsible, and completely unworkable. Which in turn made people vote against it, and now we won't get it for another decade at the earliest.

That's what you're supporting here, and it's not helpful in any way, shape, or form.
 
2020-12-02 12:15:29 PM  

The Homer Tax: Sliding Carp: The Homer Tax: SolderGlob: You know how the GOP shut out the entire Democratic party when drafting their Tax Scam bill, then only gave them two hours to read it prior to voting on it?

Democrats need to do that when they have the power. Sadly, they don't have the power going into 2021 to do anything meaningful since the Senate exists, but when they do have power they should wield it the same way the GOP does.

So this is kind of my whole point, right? Democrats *don't* have the power to do anything really, so balling up your fists and screaming "DO SOMETHING!" is pissing into the wind.

They have the power to unleash AOC and the other progressives.  By stifling them, the status quo becomes the most liberal  possible point in the discourse, and things can only move to the right, little by little, ratcheting along as every step is always to the right, and at every step the national Democratic leadership builds a wall at exactly where we are and calls it "the center."

What does "unleash AOC" mean specifically? How specifically are she and other progressives being "stifled?"

Difficulty: moderate Democrats disagreeing with progressive Democrats on things != "stifling" them.



It only works one way.  Because leftists are the underdogs they believe it's their right and DUTY to attack and obstruct other liberals & progressives.  But if you question them or refuse to roll over and do what they want you're stifling them, which they see as justification for more attacks and obstruction.

They want conflict more than anything else.
 
2020-12-02 12:17:15 PM  

Utnapishtim: If that's the case why do they need to "grab the narrative"? It's preaching to the choir. They are only losing the narrative battle because of the bubble.


Not everyone is a Democrat, and not all Democrats are political junkies. There's plenty more than the choir to preach to, but that isn't going to happen if they cede the narrative to the bubble. Trying to address the often spurious concerns of the people in the bubble gives it credibility. The bubble constantly labelling Democrats as socialists, and them doing everything they can so as to not appear socialist, just makes them look like socialists to everyone who isn't into politics enough to know that doesn't mean Soviet gulags and breadlines.

Utnapishtim: I don't disagree that it would be good for them to just stop worrying about what Republicans will think, but the truth is they can't really do anything without the political power to do it. Too many state governments and the Senate prevent anything from happening. I don't think we really have enough evidence to say if the party learned those lessons from the Obama Administration or note. They have not had the required power to actually ignore Republicans and push through their agenda.


There's more to this all than how the legislature works. It's also about winning hearts and minds, so that the political landscape does change in favor of Democrats pushing through their agenda. It's publicly running on Medicare for All instead of minute changes to the ACA so as to not appear socialist.
And besides that, if Republicans will not support Democratic legislation no matter what Democrats concede, there's no point in treating with them. Again, to the layman it just looks like Democrats are responding to valid Republican concerns. If not votes are lost either way, Democrats can offer an alternative instead of a compromise.
 
2020-12-02 12:27:52 PM  

hugadarn: MattytheMouse: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

And what exactly should the strategy be? Be specific and show your work.

I'd say stop trying to take the high road and actually try to run counter messaging against Republican bullshiat. Right now, Democrat's main strategy seems to be to let Republicans control the narrative, say whatever they want, and assume their constituents are smart enough to sift through the crap themselves.

I dont know how hamming home the hypocrisy isn't a way of grabbing the narrative.  Look, Republicans are good at lying and good at cognitive dissonance. I dont expect calling it out will shame them into changing their ways or convince their supporters of the truth, but its still an important exercise.  Yes, we should do more; be more explicit; but I have never heard Snackbar offer one actionable suggestion.


Snackbar just likes to hear his own lips flap. He is annoying as fark.
 
2020-12-02 12:32:22 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: BigSquibowski: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.

I simply have no farks left to give for fascists and fascist enablers in either political party. We are four years away from electing a dictator, it's time for Democrats to act with some urgency to prevent that because Republicans are going to use every ounce of their power and will to make it happen.

Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.

Fark that, this shiathole country isn't worth dying for. This is what you want, you fight for it. I'm out.


Oh no! One less whiny Stein voter. How will the nation recover!
 
2020-12-02 1:41:53 PM  

WTFDYW: hugadarn: MattytheMouse: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

And what exactly should the strategy be? Be specific and show your work.

I'd say stop trying to take the high road and actually try to run counter messaging against Republican bullshiat. Right now, Democrat's main strategy seems to be to let Republicans control the narrative, say whatever they want, and assume their constituents are smart enough to sift through the crap themselves.

I dont know how hamming home the hypocrisy isn't a way of grabbing the narrative.  Look, Republicans are good at lying and good at cognitive dissonance. I dont expect calling it out will shame them into changing their ways or convince their supporters of the truth, but its still an important exercise.  Yes, we should do more; be more explicit; but I have never heard Snackbar offer one actionable suggestion.

Snackbar just likes to hear his own lips flap. He is annoying as fark.


Pretty much.

He's one of the "Do something!" crowd. And when you try to nail him down on what the Something is, he just says "anything but what they're doing! Also you're the one who isn't Doing It Right!"

A lot of these pseudo progressives sound like him.
 
2020-12-02 1:49:23 PM  
Wow.  Right wing assholes never seem to reach their fill of complaining about and insulting progressives.

\I'd mockingly say "don't ever change" but it would be redundant
\\Conservatives already oppose change and progress.
 
2020-12-02 1:49:33 PM  

The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

Specifically what would that leadership do differently?


Fark user imageView Full Size


Fark user imageView Full Size


And yes, I'm serious.  Unrepentant traitors deserve *nothing* good.
 
2020-12-02 2:08:02 PM  

Gyrfalcon: WTFDYW: hugadarn: MattytheMouse: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

And what exactly should the strategy be? Be specific and show your work.

I'd say stop trying to take the high road and actually try to run counter messaging against Republican bullshiat. Right now, Democrat's main strategy seems to be to let Republicans control the narrative, say whatever they want, and assume their constituents are smart enough to sift through the crap themselves.

I dont know how hamming home the hypocrisy isn't a way of grabbing the narrative.  Look, Republicans are good at lying and good at cognitive dissonance. I dont expect calling it out will shame them into changing their ways or convince their supporters of the truth, but its still an important exercise.  Yes, we should do more; be more explicit; but I have never heard Snackbar offer one actionable suggestion.

Snackbar just likes to hear his own lips flap. He is annoying as fark.

Pretty much.

He's one of the "Do something!" crowd. And when you try to nail him down on what the Something is, he just says "anything but what they're doing! Also you're the one who isn't Doing It Right!"

A lot of these pseudo progressives sound like him.


Can't get you to understand something you don't want to understand. Bragging about being deliberately obtuse is an interesting tactic, though. Makes it easier to take you not seriously at all.
 
2020-12-02 2:26:10 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.


If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.
 
2020-12-02 2:28:13 PM  

Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.


I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.
 
2020-12-02 2:32:03 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.


The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.
 
2020-12-02 2:35:42 PM  

SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.

The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.


Exactly. You just ignore the justification, act as if it doesn't exist, and then voila, it's not valid criticism.

Just as I said, thanks for proving the point.
 
2020-12-02 2:40:58 PM  

SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.

The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.


Actual progressives aren't going to keep letting moderates be the arbiters of what is "justified", especially not after literal decades of no criticism at all being accepted as "justified" no matter the evidence presented.

You can't keep droning on that progressive ideas only get support in the deepest, bluest districts when there's evidence and examples of the exact opposite being true. If the polls showing M4A is popular with 60+% of the electorate and 80+% of Democrats isn't enough, the candidates running on M4A and GND winning in purple districts (the chart), or Florida voting for Trump and a $15 min/wage isn't going to convince you, you're making a conscious effort not to be convinced.
 
2020-12-02 2:54:39 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.

The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.

Exactly. You just ignore the justification, act as if it doesn't exist, and then voila, it's not valid criticism.

Just as I said, thanks for proving the point.


AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.


I'm not the one that came into a thread about Republicans being shiatheads and and said let's ignore the Republicans being shiatheads and then started blaming Democrats for Republicans being shiatheads.
 
2020-12-02 2:56:12 PM  

SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.

The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.

Exactly. You just ignore the justification, act as if it doesn't exist, and then voila, it's not valid criticism.

Just as I said, thanks for proving the point.

AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

I'm not the one that came into a thread about Republicans being shiatheads and and said let's ignore the Republicans being shiatheads and then started blaming Democrats for Republicans being shiatheads.


I didn't say ignore the Republicans being shiatheads. I'm saying ignore the Republican shiatheads when they whine. Farking kick their ass instead of trying to placate them.

I remember when you whined at me for hours for treating you like a disingenuous centrist. Stop acting like one.
 
2020-12-02 2:59:04 PM  

Sophont: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.

The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.

Actual progressives aren't going to keep letting moderates be the arbiters of what is "justified", especially not after literal decades of no criticism at all being accepted as "justified" no matter the evidence presented.

You can't keep droning on that progressive ideas only get support in the deepest, bluest districts when there's evidence and examples of the exact opposite being true. If the polls showing M4A is popular with 60+% of the electorate and 80+% of Democrats isn't enough, the candidates running on M4A and GND winning in purple districts (the chart), or Florida voting for Trump and a $15 min/wage isn't going to convince you, you're making a conscious effort not to be convinced.


That's not my stance at all. In fact, no where on this site have I ever made this argument. You're bringing all your grievances against the "Centrists" and "Moderates" and applying them to anyone that doesn't toe your line. It's pathetic and I respect you enough to know that this is beneath you.
 
2020-12-02 3:02:08 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.

The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.

Exactly. You just ignore the justification, act as if it doesn't exist, and then voila, it's not valid criticism.

Just as I said, thanks for proving the point.

AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

I'm not the one that came into a thread about Republicans being shiatheads and and said let's ignore the Republicans being shiatheads and then started blaming Democrats for Republicans being shiatheads.

I didn't say ignore the Republicans being shiatheads. I'm saying ignore the Republican shiatheads when they whine. Farking kick their ass instead of trying to placate them.

I remember when you whined at me for hours for treating you like a disingenuous centrist. Stop acting like one.


That's literally what Schumer did in tfa.... 

Oh, sorry. Democrats need to be constantly criticized, I forgot. Can't ever defend them when they actually do the right thing. God, how Centrist of me to think that.
 
2020-12-02 3:11:35 PM  

SolderGlob: That's literally what Schumer did in tfa....


Not at all, he just whined about hypocrisy.

It makes so much sense that you thought that was an ass kicking, your standards are so low as to be nonexistent.

Oh, sorry. Democrats need to be constantly criticized, I forgot. Can't ever defend them when they actually do the right thing. God, how Centrist of me to think that.

They didn't do the right thing, they did what they always do and help Republicans control the narrative. Figure it out.
 
2020-12-02 3:18:11 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: Not at all, he just whined about hypocrisy.

It makes so much sense that you thought that was an ass kicking, your standards are so low as to be nonexistent.


Yes, they are low because Democrats have historically shied away from doing shiat like this. This is the change you've been screaming for and now that it's here it's all of a sudden not enough. I have a notion that when the Democrats take that next step and start utilizing the tactics that the GOP normalized then that won't be enough and you'll continue to criticize them.
 
2020-12-02 3:19:23 PM  

SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Not at all, he just whined about hypocrisy.

It makes so much sense that you thought that was an ass kicking, your standards are so low as to be nonexistent.

Yes, they are low because Democrats have historically shied away from doing shiat like this. This is the change you've been screaming for and now that it's here it's all of a sudden not enough. I have a notion that when the Democrats take that next step and start utilizing the tactics that the GOP normalized then that won't be enough and you'll continue to criticize them.


They have never shied away from passive-aggressive weak comments like this. The problem is that this is the best they can do, and it sucks.
 
2020-12-02 3:22:09 PM  

SolderGlob: Sophont: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.

The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.

Actual progressives aren't going to keep letting moderates be the arbiters of what is "justified", especially not after literal decades of no criticism at all being accepted as "justified" no matter the evidence presented.

You can't keep droning on that progressive ideas only get support in the deepest, bluest districts when there's evidence and examples of the exact opposite being true. If the polls showing M4A is popular with 60+% of the electorate and 80+% of Democrats isn't enough, the candidates running on M4A and GND winning in purple districts (the chart), or Florida voting for Trump and a $15 min/wage isn't going to convince you, you're making a conscious effort not to be convinced.

That's not my stance at all. In fact, no where on this site have I ever made this argument. You're bringing all your grievances against the "Centrists" and "Moderates" and applying them to anyone that doesn't toe your line. It's pathetic and I respect you enough to know that this is beneath you.


Then don't trot out those pathetic moderate talking points like "The criticism has to be justified."
It'd be one thing if it was just people not toeing my line, but arguments like the "justified" one aren't an attempt to pit their opinion against mine, but delegitimizing my opinion altogether. So it goes in these threads, where it's not bouncing back and forth about what strategy Democrats should employ, but whether one side even has the right to have an opinion at all.
There is evidence. There's plenty to be learned from the election and what could be done to win the GA seats. But the usual suspects are trying to shut down arguments the same ways they did when Millenials actually were young, recycled when the same problems haven't been solved for the Zoomers.
It's not justified. You don't understand how this works. You don't have any experience. I don't accept this evidence, find more. Oh yeah, why don't you get elected?
I'd farking enjoy someone simply not toeing the line.
 
2020-12-02 3:25:19 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Not at all, he just whined about hypocrisy.

It makes so much sense that you thought that was an ass kicking, your standards are so low as to be nonexistent.

Yes, they are low because Democrats have historically shied away from doing shiat like this. This is the change you've been screaming for and now that it's here it's all of a sudden not enough. I have a notion that when the Democrats take that next step and start utilizing the tactics that the GOP normalized then that won't be enough and you'll continue to criticize them.

They have never shied away from passive-aggressive weak comments like this. The problem is that this is the best they can do, and it sucks.


Fark user imageView Full Size


This is the zenith of Democratic resistance to Trump.
They couldn't even impeach him without devising a way to narrow the focus into meaninglessness.
 
2020-12-02 3:28:22 PM  

Utnapishtim: Khellendros: Utnapishtim: There is no shortage of detailed plans and good speeches by Democrats, but they will never reach the people that need to hear it.

Your definition of "the people that need to hear it" is the problem.  The group that needs to hear are the 40% of the country that doesn't vote in presidential elections, the 60% that doesn't vote in midterm elections, and the 80%+ that don't vote in off-year elections.

The statistics are pretty clear on this - the entirety of political control in the country is based on voter turnout.  We don't need to change the minds of people who are committed to autocracy and authoritarian right-wing blather.

People are politically disengaged for a wide variety of reasons. Don't you think that it is risky to pin all of your hopes on a group that has proven that they are not willing to participate? I'm not saying its not worth trying to get them engaged, because it definitely is, but they are not a monolithic voting bloc and some of them are just ignorant and lazy. I don't want to necessarily count on them to save us.


There are only two groups not voting blue - nonvoters and the right.  You think it's more fruitful to try to "convince" and/or shame the right by constantly hammering their hypocrisy (something that has done absolutely nothing in almost two decades) or by trying to convince them of liberal or progressive ideals (something that has not only failed, but backfired for 40 years)?

Or do we focus on a group that we know can be moved?  You know, as was showing in an election less than a month ago with record turnout?  Let's see here.....
 
2020-12-02 3:53:31 PM  
AdmirableSnackbar:

Everyone in this thread has been waiting for you to provide an example of what you want the Democrats to do. Any concrete example.

The best I've seen can be summarized as "be like the Republicans, but don't be like the Republicans," which is not helpful.

I've never seen you offer anything but sealioning and obfuscation, so we have to conclude you're full of it.
 
2020-12-02 4:14:22 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.


When was this?
 
2020-12-02 4:34:40 PM  

rewind2846: Tarl3k: rewind2846: Someone(s) in Trump's circle of hell is being investigated for bribery in return for presidential pardons RIGHT FARKING NOW, something that likely has NEVER been done in US history. And republicans have said nothing, as usual.

Republicans, I want to hear neither Jack nor Shat of what you have to say. Not one goddamn peep from your faces. Just STFU for the next four years and forever about "scandals". And f'k your pearls too.

I believe you but want to know more...citation please?

Start here. Hell, start with google. It's on the front page of papers around the planet.


Thanks, I hadn't heard about that, trying to avoid the news about Trump until he's out of office and completely irrelevant...
 
2020-12-02 4:35:47 PM  
I'm talking about 40 years, not 4. And if you think I support Republicans by asking Democrats to fight Republicans instead of caving to them at every opportunity, I honestly don't know what your problem could possibly be. Luckily I don't have to see your trolling bullshiat anymore.
 
2020-12-02 4:37:13 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.


Absolutely nobody thinks that.  Exaggeration doesn't help.  Whining about democrats doesn't help.  Why aren't you and your Bernie Brethren just "doing something?"  Why aren't they bringing about Medicare for All and student loan forgiveness?  They should just pass the legislation without caring what democrats or repubs think.

What's that you say?  They don't have the votes?  They don't hold enough seats in congress?  Well, figure it out!  That's their job.
 
2020-12-02 4:53:44 PM  

Graffito: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

Absolutely nobody thinks that.  Exaggeration doesn't help.  Whining about democrats doesn't help.  Why aren't you and your Bernie Brethren just "doing something?"  Why aren't they bringing about Medicare for All and student loan forgiveness?  They should just pass the legislation without caring what democrats or repubs think.

What's that you say?  They don't have the votes?  They don't hold enough seats in congress?  Well, figure it out!  That's their job.


You're a sociopath.
 
2020-12-02 5:07:12 PM  
I like the whole "The Democrats should just act like Republicans" take on how to get things done. It conveniently leaves out the "build a billion dollar propaganda network that will back Democrats no matter what dumb things they do on AM radio and cable" step. Not to mention that even the most "liberal" of media by-and-large doesn't want to carry the Democrat's water
 
2020-12-02 5:09:21 PM  
I mean, if you're so very happy that our country sees ~70k citizens die every year because they can't afford health care that you taunt the people trying to change it...what the actual fark is wrong with someone that would do that?

We should be horrified and embarrassed at our third world health care system and the damage it does. Instead you're proud of it? You're proud that we're at least a decade away from joining the rest of the world in making sure it's citizens' basic human needs are met? Farking disgusting.
 
2020-12-02 5:20:27 PM  

AdmirableSnackbar: I mean, if you're so very happy that our country sees ~70k citizens die every year because they can't afford health care that you taunt the people trying to change it...what the actual fark is wrong with someone that would do that?


Who's proud of it? It's an embarrassment. But your guys' solution of "Well if Democrats don't do exactly what we want we'll stay home and maybe Republicans will undo the progress that's been done" is just as evil
 
2020-12-02 6:08:53 PM  

SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: Rwa2play: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

If that were the case, the fate of the country wouldn't be depending on the Georgia runoffs.  Instead we'd all be talking about what a $5 Trillion stimulus package would look like in the first 60 days that Biden would be in office.

I mean the people ITT and elsewhere who will accept no criticism whatsoever of the Democratic Party and engage in personal attacks against anyone who thinks there's even slight room for improvement.

The criticism has to be justified otherwise it's just whining.

Exactly. You just ignore the justification, act as if it doesn't exist, and then voila, it's not valid criticism.

Just as I said, thanks for proving the point.

AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

I'm not the one that came into a thread about Republicans being shiatheads and and said let's ignore the Republicans being shiatheads and then started blaming Democrats for Republicans being shiatheads.

I didn't say ignore the Republicans being shiatheads. I'm saying ignore the Republican shiatheads when they whine. Farking kick their ass instead of trying to placate them.

I remember when you whined at me for hours for treating you like a disingenuous centrist. Stop acting like one.

That's literally what Schumer did in tfa.... 

Oh, sorry. Democrats need to be constantly criticized, I forgot. Can't ever defend them when they actually do the right thing. God, how Centrist of me to think that.


There is a vast and vital difference between "doing the right thing" and "doing not the worst possible thing"

Calling the latter the former doesn't convince anyone who isn't fully on-board already.
 
2020-12-02 6:12:41 PM  

Graffito: AdmirableSnackbar: Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.

Absolutely nobody thinks that.  Exaggeration doesn't help.  Whining about democrats doesn't help.  Why aren't you and your Bernie Brethren just "doing something?"  Why aren't they bringing about Medicare for All and student loan forgiveness?  They should just pass the legislation without caring what democrats or repubs think.

What's that you say?  They don't have the votes?  They don't hold enough seats in congress?  Well, figure it out!  That's their job.


Just so you know, your pathological obsession with Bernie Sanders says far more about you than it does those you attempt to denigrate and dismiss by associating them with his name.
 
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