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6239 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Dec 2020 at 9:48 AM (12 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-12-02 10:52:52 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.

So, you want the Democrats to hold a gun to America's proverbial head and use the threat of shutting down the Federal government to force the GOP to operate in good faith?

No, I want Democrats to act without regard to Republicans at all. Disregard them. Don't listen to them, don't let them control the narrative. I've never seen that in my lifetime and I'm not exactly young.

I'm not sure why Democrats always need Republicans to lead them around, but that's what we've had for the last 40 years.

I don't disagree with this at all. I'd like to see the Democrats utilize more of the tactics that the GOP uses to get their way, but therein lies the problem. The Democratic party wants a functioning federal government, the GOP doesn't, so they will use that as leverage to get whatever they want. When Democrats are arguing for stricter emissions regulations or healthcare it does nothing for them to threaten to shut down the government, and in fact works against them. The problem is that Democrats have no leverage with which to negotiate since the goals of the GOP and the goals of the Democratic party are in complete opposition to each other. 

You can't negotiate with someone willing and eager to kill the hostage.

That's why you don't negotiate with the GOP. You work to defeat them and do what the fark you want. ...


Ok, so how does shiatting on Democrats in this thread work to defeat the Republicans, or how does it enable the Democratic party to pass legislation when the GOP led Senate won't even consider going anywhere near the negotiating table?
 
2020-12-02 10:55:44 AM  

The Homer Tax: When I asked you for specifics you screamed at me that my question was not in good faith.


Because it's not.
He answers the question every single time, and you pretend he didn't because.... why?

Democrats need to stop worrying about what Republicans in Alabama are going to think before they commit to any plan of action. They need to stop being worried Sean Hannity is going to go on the air and call them socialists. They need to stop moderating their position to appease the opposition before they even get to the negotiating table, only for the opposition to oppose them out of spite, rather than any actual objections to their position.

You'll say something like "They need to represent everyone." when they try and concern themselves with the support of people who will never think of Democrats as anything other than baby-killing communists. But working in everyone's best interests isn't the same as representing everyone, and the Democrats consistently fail at the former while claiming to pursue the latter.

Stop getting cowed from enacting anything because some moron pipes up 'How do you pay for it?" when we both have enough money to pay for shiat and the question isn't even being asked in good faith.
 
2020-12-02 10:58:09 AM  

Spartapuss: AdmirableSnackbar: Spartapuss: So your specific plan is

You're like the 5th person in this thread to use this rhetorical tactic in bad faith. You should get some sort of prize.

I'm one of many people to point out that nothing you've offered up works within the frame of our government. Don't reflect on that though, everyone else is the asshole.


You know how Republicans do things - terrible things, but that's not related to the point - and then only talk about what they did or want to do in good, favorable terms and refuse to acknowledge anything bad? And you notice how they work to change public opinion on things towards what they want to do? Start there. Figure that shiat out, Democrats, and stop letting Republicans dictate the terms of the conversation because doing that allows Republicans to shape public opinion and crushes the Democrats' ability to change public opinion.

And then when you get that far, once you get power, you farking USE IT. There was no reason for Democrats to negotiate away parts of the ACA to make Republicans happy, only for Republicans to all vote against it and then use the weaknesses they created in the bill to essentially neuter it. Democrats should have gone full universal health care and then bragged about it instead of letting Republicans win in the end out of some sense of nobility.

I'm sorry if I'm not putting every step of the plan together for you, I'm not a member of Congress or part of the federal government. There's a lot to do to get anything done, I'm saying when you get an opportunity, make it happen instead of letting Republicans control what gets done. Is that too hard for you to understand? It's a strategy and an attitude, the specific uses of the levers of power change from instance to instance. And you know that, or should if you're actually being serious. So either you're not serious about this or you're not discussing this in good faith.
 
2020-12-02 10:58:34 AM  

Sin'sHero: AdmirableSnackbar: Pointing out Republican hypocrisy is fun and all but it accomplishes nothing. They don't care; they have no shame. This just shows that the Democrats haven't learned a damn thing, ever. Merrick farking Garland anyone?

We need leadership that actually understands the lay of the land and the nature of Republicans and how to deal with them.

Firing squad?


For some reason, you put a question mark on your comment.
 
2020-12-02 10:58:38 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?


Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.
 
2020-12-02 11:00:10 AM  

SolderGlob: Ok, so how does shiatting on Democrats in this thread work to defeat the Republicans


We need to defeat the Republicans in the Democratic Party, especially the ones in leadership position.

how does it enable the Democratic party to pass legislation when the GOP led Senate won't even consider going anywhere near the negotiating table?

It doesn't, because that's their job. It's not my job to help them, certainly not when they act deliberately helpless and look to the GOP to make everything right.
 
2020-12-02 11:01:17 AM  

Sophont: Stop getting cowed from enacting anything because some moron pipes up 'How do you pay for it?" when we both have enough money to pay for shiat and the question isn't even being asked in good faith.


You can't "Enact" legislation without it passing the Senate. This is literally the entire point. In order to pass the Senate you need 60 votes for cloture. The question is ENTIRELY in good faith because it acknowledges the reality of our government and how it operates.

I agree with what you say about negotiation and Hannity and all of that, but it doesn't change how our government fundamentally operates. Operating within the confines of reality is not a bad faith position to take, it's literally the exact opposite.
 
2020-12-02 11:01:36 AM  

Sophont: The Homer Tax: When I asked you for specifics you screamed at me that my question was not in good faith.

Because it's not.
He answers the question every single time, and you pretend he didn't because.... why?

Democrats need to stop worrying about what Republicans in Alabama are going to think before they commit to any plan of action. They need to stop being worried Sean Hannity is going to go on the air and call them socialists. They need to stop moderating their position to appease the opposition before they even get to the negotiating table, only for the opposition to oppose them out of spite, rather than any actual objections to their position.

You'll say something like "They need to represent everyone." when they try and concern themselves with the support of people who will never think of Democrats as anything other than baby-killing communists. But working in everyone's best interests isn't the same as representing everyone, and the Democrats consistently fail at the former while claiming to pursue the latter.

Stop getting cowed from enacting anything because some moron pipes up 'How do you pay for it?" when we both have enough money to pay for shiat and the question isn't even being asked in good faith.


If you just believe hard enough, you can overcome trivial barriers like being a minority in the Senate. Mitch McConnell will be so impressed by the way the dems didn't worry about what a Republican voter in Alabama thinks that he'll just step out of the way in the face of our big dick energy. But Democrats wont even try it!
 
2020-12-02 11:01:52 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.


The only thing Republicans seem to have wanted at the time was to stop the Democrats from doing anything. Being obstructive is easy; being constructive seems more difficult.
 
2020-12-02 11:02:21 AM  

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.


So I can't do all of that AND post on Fark about how intransigent Democrats are?

Why do you assume that I'm not calling my POS representative and saying the same things to them? That I'm not also working with and supporting activist groups? Some of us can walk and chew gum.

Nothing you're doing is working. Whining about the fact that I've noticed that, while you don't really seem to care, doesn't solve anything.
 
2020-12-02 11:02:40 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: Ok, so how does shiatting on Democrats in this thread work to defeat the Republicans

We need to defeat the Republicans in the Democratic Party, especially the ones in leadership position.

how does it enable the Democratic party to pass legislation when the GOP led Senate won't even consider going anywhere near the negotiating table?

It doesn't, because that's their job. It's not my job to help them, certainly not when they act deliberately helpless and look to the GOP to make everything right.


I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy and what your "job" is in it. Hint: it's not over when you cast your vote.
 
2020-12-02 11:02:49 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Hell, they can't even figure out why they're mad at me other than insufficient loyalty and deference to The Party.



Brother, I'll be straight with you, I find you frequently exasperating myself, but here's how I read your schtick:

The Republican Party is beyond redemption.  There is no floor to their corruption, hate, greed, and treachery.  There is no point in harping on them, because they are a black hole of awfulness unworthy of debate.

The Democratic Party, by contrast, is deeply flawed, but not beyond redemption.  We argue about what Democrats should do far more than Republicans because the ostensible ideals of the party are worth fighting for.

You complain about Democrats because we can be better.  Republicans cannot, and thus it is pointless to argue about them.
 
2020-12-02 11:02:57 AM  

SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.

So, you want the Democrats to hold a gun to America's proverbial head and use the threat of shutting down the Federal government to force the GOP to operate in good faith?

No, I want Democrats to act without regard to Republicans at all. Disregard them. Don't listen to them, don't let them control the narrative. I've never seen that in my lifetime and I'm not exactly young.

I'm not sure why Democrats always need Republicans to lead them around, but that's what we've had for the last 40 years.

I don't disagree with this at all. I'd like to see the Democrats utilize more of the tactics that the GOP uses to get their way, but therein lies the problem. The Democratic party wants a functioning federal government, the GOP doesn't, so they will use that as leverage to get whatever they want. When Democrats are arguing for stricter emissions regulations or healthcare it does nothing for them to threaten to shut down the government, and in fact works against them. The problem is that Democrats have no leverage with which to negotiate since the goals of the GOP and the goals of the Democratic party are in complete opposition to each other. 

You can't negotiate with someone willing and eager to kill the hostage.


You can't reform a system specifically designed to allow an entrenched minority to prevent reform.
 
2020-12-02 11:03:10 AM  

The Homer Tax: SolderGlob: The problem is that Democrats have no leverage with which to negotiate since the goals of the GOP and the goals of the Democratic party are in complete opposition to each other.

Have you considered that instead of actually trying to pass legislation in order to enact the things that they want they should "Just do something?"


I have actually. Usually the scenarios playing out in my head end with the Judiciary laughing the Democrats out of the courtroom while telling them to follow the law when passing legislation.
 
2020-12-02 11:03:14 AM  

The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?


I think they believe if they just fill up twitter with AOC style quotes (and she's great at framing issues and firing rhetorical broadsides), that magic happens and the "liberal" media suddenly quits amplifying Republicans and starts following the Democratic Progressive agenda.

I mean, it worked for Trump, why doesn't it work when we do it.
 
2020-12-02 11:04:25 AM  

Snatch Bandergrip: AdmirableSnackbar: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Hell, they can't even figure out why they're mad at me other than insufficient loyalty and deference to The Party.


Brother, I'll be straight with you, I find you frequently exasperating myself, but here's how I read your schtick:

The Republican Party is beyond redemption.  There is no floor to their corruption, hate, greed, and treachery.  There is no point in harping on them, because they are a black hole of awfulness unworthy of debate.

The Democratic Party, by contrast, is deeply flawed, but not beyond redemption.  We argue about what Democrats should do far more than Republicans because the ostensible ideals of the party are worth fighting for.

You complain about Democrats because we can be better.  Republicans cannot, and thus it is pointless to argue about them.


Precisely. Unfortunately people seem to think that Democrats are perfect and beyond reproach.
 
2020-12-02 11:05:05 AM  

abb3w: The only thing Republicans seem to have wanted at the time was to stop the Democrats from doing anything. Being obstructive is easy; being constructive seems more difficult.


The GOP literally had all three branches of the government, including both houses for two years and *couldn't even overturn the ACA* which was their single issue in the 6 years since it's inception. That should demonstrate just how disingenuous the argument "JUST DO THINGS!" is when viewed within the context of how our government actually operates.
 
2020-12-02 11:05:20 AM  

SolderGlob: Ok, so how does shiatting on Democrats in this thread work to defeat the Republicans, or how does it enable the Democratic party to pass legislation when the GOP led Senate won't even consider going anywhere near the negotiating table?


It doesn't. Look at the guys posting history. shiatting on Democrats is the point.

The most charitable explanation is that the Democrats hurt his feeling so bad by rejecting St. Bernie that he thinks the party must be destroyed as punishment.
 
2020-12-02 11:07:05 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.

So I can't do all of that AND post on Fark about how intransigent Democrats are?

Why do you assume that I'm not calling my POS representative and saying the same things to them? That I'm not also working with and supporting activist groups? Some of us can walk and chew gum.

Nothing you're doing is working. Whining about the fact that I've noticed that, while you don't really seem to care, doesn't solve anything.


What could your representative possibly do with anything you have written here. How is "do something dammit" constructive.
 
2020-12-02 11:07:25 AM  

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.


From my point of view, the people you would seem to include in "trying to make a difference" haven't done so in my entire lifetime, and their supposedly careful, measured approach to progress keeps getting stomped on and set back multiple steps and they do absolutely nothing in response.
You're mad because he's disparaging your work. I, and supposedly he, are mad because nothing you're actually working on is solutions to problems but stopgaps that address symptoms of problems that have been festering for years.
It doesn't matter how hard you work to get a tax credit for health insurance enacted, I still won't be able to afford my deductible if something really bad happens, and we have a plethora of healthcare systems from all over the world to choose from where no one worries about bankrupcty if they get sick.
 
2020-12-02 11:07:42 AM  

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: Ok, so how does shiatting on Democrats in this thread work to defeat the Republicans

We need to defeat the Republicans in the Democratic Party, especially the ones in leadership position.

how does it enable the Democratic party to pass legislation when the GOP led Senate won't even consider going anywhere near the negotiating table?

It doesn't, because that's their job. It's not my job to help them, certainly not when they act deliberately helpless and look to the GOP to make everything right.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of democracy and what your "job" is in it. Hint: it's not over when you cast your vote.


And here I am, exhorting Democrats - for whom I voted - to represent their constituents better than they have in decades and you're arguing in bad faith that they should not do that.
 
2020-12-02 11:07:52 AM  

Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.


Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.
 
2020-12-02 11:08:51 AM  

Generation_D: I mean, it worked for Trump, why doesn't it work when we do it.


Here's the thing though - it didn't really work for Trump. He accomplished very little legislatively in office. it's why he had to resort to executive orders for everything, which can all be as easily undone as they were done.

The *only* legislative accomplishment during the Trump administration was the Tax scam, and even that passed just barely.
 
2020-12-02 11:09:44 AM  

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.

So I can't do all of that AND post on Fark about how intransigent Democrats are?

Why do you assume that I'm not calling my POS representative and saying the same things to them? That I'm not also working with and supporting activist groups? Some of us can walk and chew gum.

Nothing you're doing is working. Whining about the fact that I've noticed that, while you don't really seem to care, doesn't solve anything.

What could your representative possibly do with anything you have written here. How is "do something dammit" constructive.


My representative is not on Fark. We're discussing shiat here, not plotting actions because they're not our actions to take.

You think you're on the coaching staff of your favorite football team, don't you? You think that their performance is tied directly to your personal actions and decisions, right? That's the level of idiocy and anal-retentive stupidity you're showing here.
 
2020-12-02 11:12:38 AM  

The Homer Tax: You can't "Enact" legislation without it passing the Senate. This is literally the entire point. In order to pass the Senate you need 60 votes for cloture. The question is ENTIRELY in good faith because it acknowledges the reality of our government and how it operates.


It's in no way good faith because that's not what the discussion is about.
Ackbar's argument isn't about getting things through the Senate. He/She's even said they're not being that specific. But it's still folly to try to placate Republicans in the Senate in exchange for zero votes, so their "Stop deferring to Republicans before you do anything." applies there, too.

In any case, the Democrats can win the Senate by not beholdening themselves to Republicans when they think up policy.
 
2020-12-02 11:14:36 AM  

BigSquibowski: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.


I simply have no farks left to give for fascists and fascist enablers in either political party. We are four years away from electing a dictator, it's time for Democrats to act with some urgency to prevent that because Republicans are going to use every ounce of their power and will to make it happen.
 
2020-12-02 11:15:01 AM  

Sophont: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.

From my point of view, the people you would seem to include in "trying to make a difference" haven't done so in my entire lifetime, and their supposedly careful, measured approach to progress keeps getting stomped on and set back multiple steps and they do absolutely nothing in response.
You're mad because he's disparaging your work. I, and supposedly he, are mad because nothing you're actually working on is solutions to problems but stopgaps that address symptoms of problems that have been festering for years.
It doesn't matter how hard you work to get a tax credit for health insurance enacted, I still won't be able to afford my deductible if something really bad happens, and we have a plethora of healthcare systems from all over the world to choose from where no one worries about bankrupcty if they get sick.


The problem is either you don't believe any of that, or your extremely lazy, or extremely cowardly.  Because if I believed what you are saying; I wouldn't be at work, waiting for a part to come in, dickin around on fark; I'd be plotting a revolution because democracy doesn't work.
 
2020-12-02 11:16:16 AM  

PlaidJaguar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.

So, you want the Democrats to hold a gun to America's proverbial head and use the threat of shutting down the Federal government to force the GOP to operate in good faith?

No, I want Democrats to act without regard to Republicans at all. Disregard them. Don't listen to them, don't let them control the narrative. I've never seen that in my lifetime and I'm not exactly young.

I'm not sure why Democrats always need Republicans to lead them around, but that's what we've had for the last 40 years.

I don't disagree with this at all. I'd like to see the Democrats utilize more of the tactics that the GOP uses to get their way, but therein lies the problem. The Democratic party wants a functioning federal government, the GOP doesn't, so they will use that as leverage to get whatever they want. When Democrats are arguing for stricter emissions regulations or healthcare it does nothing for them to threaten to shut down the government, and in fact works against them. The problem is that Democrats have no leverage with which to negotiate since the goals of the GOP and the goals of the Democratic party are in complete opposition to each other. 

You can't negotiate with someone willing and eager to kill the hostage.

You can't reform a system specifically designed to allow an entrenched minority to prevent reform.


Yes. That's exactly the problem. The GOP has come to the realization that they don't actually have to do their jobs when they aren't in power and it benefits them not to do their jobs in the minority. Democrats don't have that luxury because if/when they don't do the exact thing some people want they lose elections. Quite the conundrum.
 
2020-12-02 11:16:50 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.

So I can't do all of that AND post on Fark about how intransigent Democrats are?

Why do you assume that I'm not calling my POS representative and saying the same things to them? That I'm not also working with and supporting activist groups? Some of us can walk and chew gum.

Nothing you're doing is working. Whining about the fact that I've noticed that, while you don't really seem to care, doesn't solve anything.

What could your representative possibly do with anything you have written here. How is "do something dammit" constructive.

My representative is not on Fark. We're discussing shiat here, not plotting actions because they're not our actions to take.

You think you're on the coaching staff of your favorite football team, don't you? You think that their performance is tied directly to your personal actions and decisions, right? That's the level of idiocy and anal-retentive stupidity you're showing here.


Last I checked NFL teams aren't democracies.
 
2020-12-02 11:17:11 AM  

RobotSpider: This is the prusik-knot that is Republican politics. They slide the rope where they want it, then lock it down while Democrats are in control. Then they slide it a little further, then lock it down. There is no give-and-take. There is only the inexorable march toward authoritarianism. What they did doesn't matter--they had to do it. But if it's not them doing it, it's not happening.


I've never seen this expressed better, and I had to Google "prusik knot."
 
2020-12-02 11:17:47 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: BigSquibowski: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.

I simply have no farks left to give for fascists and fascist enablers in either political party. We are four years away from electing a dictator, it's time for Democrats to act with some urgency to prevent that because Republicans are going to use every ounce of their power and will to make it happen.


Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.
 
2020-12-02 11:19:11 AM  

hugadarn: Sophont: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.

From my point of view, the people you would seem to include in "trying to make a difference" haven't done so in my entire lifetime, and their supposedly careful, measured approach to progress keeps getting stomped on and set back multiple steps and they do absolutely nothing in response.
You're mad because he's disparaging your work. I, and supposedly he, are mad because nothing you're actually working on is solutions to problems but stopgaps that address symptoms of problems that have been festering for years.
It doesn't matter how hard you work to get a tax credit for health insurance enacted, I still won't be able to afford my deductible if something really bad happens, and we have a plethora of healthcare systems from all over the world to choose from where no one worries about bankrupcty if they get sick.

The problem is either you don't believe any of that, or your extremely lazy, or extremely cowardly.  Because if I believed what you are saying; I ...


It's funny how the supposed champions of progress always resort to conservative namecalling when they can't defend their arguments.
 
2020-12-02 11:19:41 AM  

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: BigSquibowski: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.

I simply have no farks left to give for fascists and fascist enablers in either political party. We are four years away from electing a dictator, it's time for Democrats to act with some urgency to prevent that because Republicans are going to use every ounce of their power and will to make it happen.

Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.


Fark that, this shiathole country isn't worth dying for. This is what you want, you fight for it. I'm out.
 
2020-12-02 11:20:26 AM  

hugadarn: Last I checked NFL teams aren't democracies.


Neither is this country; we're practically an oligarchy.
 
2020-12-02 11:21:21 AM  

The Homer Tax: SolderGlob: You know how the GOP shut out the entire Democratic party when drafting their Tax Scam bill, then only gave them two hours to read it prior to voting on it?

Democrats need to do that when they have the power. Sadly, they don't have the power going into 2021 to do anything meaningful since the Senate exists, but when they do have power they should wield it the same way the GOP does.

So this is kind of my whole point, right? Democrats *don't* have the power to do anything really, so balling up your fists and screaming "DO SOMETHING!" is pissing into the wind.


They have the power to unleash AOC and the other progressives.  By stifling them, the status quo becomes the most liberal  possible point in the discourse, and things can only move to the right, little by little, ratcheting along as every step is always to the right, and at every step the national Democratic leadership builds a wall at exactly where we are and calls it "the center."
 
2020-12-02 11:21:46 AM  
GOP delenda est.
 
2020-12-02 11:22:13 AM  

Sophont: hugadarn: Sophont: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.

From my point of view, the people you would seem to include in "trying to make a difference" haven't done so in my entire lifetime, and their supposedly careful, measured approach to progress keeps getting stomped on and set back multiple steps and they do absolutely nothing in response.
You're mad because he's disparaging your work. I, and supposedly he, are mad because nothing you're actually working on is solutions to problems but stopgaps that address symptoms of problems that have been festering for years.
It doesn't matter how hard you work to get a tax credit for health insurance enacted, I still won't be able to afford my deductible if something really bad happens, and we have a plethora of healthcare systems from all over the world to choose from where no one worries about bankrupcty if they get sick.

The problem is either you don't believe any of that, or your extremely lazy, or extremely cowardly.  Because if I believed what you are saying; I ...

It's funny how the supposed champions of progress always resort to conservative namecalling when they can't defend their arguments.


Snowflake.
 
2020-12-02 11:23:05 AM  

hugadarn: if I believed what you are saying; I wouldn't be at work, waiting for a part to come in, dickin around on fark; I'd be plotting a revolution because democracy doesn't work.


hugadarn: Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.


"If you're not out in a field plotting a coup, your concerns about democracy are invalid"


That's Trumper shiat.
 
2020-12-02 11:25:09 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: BigSquibowski: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.

I simply have no farks left to give for fascists and fascist enablers in either political party. We are four years away from electing a dictator, it's time for Democrats to act with some urgency to prevent that because Republicans are going to use every ounce of their power and will to make it happen.

Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.

Fark that, this shiathole country isn't worth dying for. This is what you want, you fight for it. I'm out.


Well maybe its not worth dying for its borders or its flag but it is the country that has most of my loved ones and all of my stuff so I'm willing to fight for it.
 
2020-12-02 11:25:18 AM  
I am waiting for "Trump?  I was always against his policies, what a whacky presidency that was...vote for me!"
 
2020-12-02 11:26:55 AM  

Snatch Bandergrip: hugadarn: if I believed what you are saying; I wouldn't be at work, waiting for a part to come in, dickin around on fark; I'd be plotting a revolution because democracy doesn't work.

hugadarn: Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.

"If you're not out in a field plotting a coup, your concerns about democracy are invalid"


That's Trumper shiat.


He's right you know. You don't have to attack the government, you just have to get them to pay attention. Grab your rifle because putting down protesters is also Trumper shiat.
 
2020-12-02 11:27:26 AM  
What I find endlessly hilarious are the right-wing assholes cosplaying as "moderate progressives" as they decry leftists for "not doing anything" in their attempts to denigrate and harass leftists into silence.

Making these posts, having these conversations is doing something. The internet is the modern Town Square and we're here standing on our soapboxes, adding our voices, and doing our best to shape the conversation.

That us how we win. We keep talking. We convince more and more people that we're right - because we are. Eventually we get enough people on-side that we take over.

That's the only way real change ever happens.
 
2020-12-02 11:28:00 AM  

SolderGlob: PlaidJaguar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: SolderGlob: AdmirableSnackbar: The Homer Tax: AdmirableSnackbar: Go about your agenda without regard for Republican howling. Be merciless, pull every lever you need to pull to get the job done. Stop relying on Republican support or approval to do anything, just farking do what your voter base wants.

It's called governing, and I understand how you don't know what it is; you've never seen it before from Democrats.

How specifically do you "just do the things you want to do" in the American Legislative system without the Senate?

Republicans did it when they only had the House and Democrats had the White House and Senate. Figure it out.

So, you want the Democrats to hold a gun to America's proverbial head and use the threat of shutting down the Federal government to force the GOP to operate in good faith?

No, I want Democrats to act without regard to Republicans at all. Disregard them. Don't listen to them, don't let them control the narrative. I've never seen that in my lifetime and I'm not exactly young.

I'm not sure why Democrats always need Republicans to lead them around, but that's what we've had for the last 40 years.

I don't disagree with this at all. I'd like to see the Democrats utilize more of the tactics that the GOP uses to get their way, but therein lies the problem. The Democratic party wants a functioning federal government, the GOP doesn't, so they will use that as leverage to get whatever they want. When Democrats are arguing for stricter emissions regulations or healthcare it does nothing for them to threaten to shut down the government, and in fact works against them. The problem is that Democrats have no leverage with which to negotiate since the goals of the GOP and the goals of the Democratic party are in complete opposition to each other. 

You can't negotiate with someone willing and eager to kill the hostage.

You can't reform a system specifically designed to allow an entrenched minority to pre ...


It's not a conundrum.
Democrats aren't even attempting to offer people what they want. They try to rebrand a small, hopefully uncontroversial step in the direction of what some people might want as the actual thing everyone wants. And they aren't very good at it. It makes them appear weak, as if they don't stand for anything, and don't push back when the Republicans label them.

People want M4A.
Try to give it to them.
No, running on expanding tax credits as part of the ACA is not trying to give people M4A. It will not be viewed as an accomplishment by anyone who wants M4A no matter how hard you had to work to enact it. It's doing well in the 100 meter dash when the actual race is a marathon.
Run on M4A. Run the marathon. See how far you can get.
 
2020-12-02 11:28:30 AM  

Snatch Bandergrip: hugadarn: if I believed what you are saying; I wouldn't be at work, waiting for a part to come in, dickin around on fark; I'd be plotting a revolution because democracy doesn't work.

hugadarn: Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.

"If you're not out in a field plotting a coup, your concerns about democracy are invalid"


That's Trumper shiat.


No you have three choices. Work in the system. Work outside the system, or do nothing. It appears some have chosen the last one but want to complain about us doing the first. I respect the second.
 
2020-12-02 11:29:07 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: Wow you certainly have created a narrative about things you don't know anything about.  I am a proponents of agressive wealth redistribution, universal health care, and UBI. But, I advocate a specific strategy to move towards those things while trying to stop the bleeding and triage for the most vulnerable populations on the way. I advocate Democrats move away from omnibus legislation and allowing Republicans to add riders to every single bill. Progressive ideas poll well in isolation so try to pass them that way. If that doesn't work try to use referendums at the local level to prove that point.

At what point do you expect Democrats to start working for the things you want?

Thats the point I dont expectanyone to fix this for me. I am involved, I talk to my representatives, and I work with activists.  I don't just complain. I plan.
I'm not trying to be a dick but you're disparaging people who are trying to make a difference and it doesn't sound like your doing jack.

So I can't do all of that AND post on Fark about how intransigent Democrats are?

Why do you assume that I'm not calling my POS representative and saying the same things to them? That I'm not also working with and supporting activist groups? Some of us can walk and chew gum.

Nothing you're doing is working. Whining about the fact that I've noticed that, while you don't really seem to care, doesn't solve anything.


As opposed to anything you're doing that is "working"? What is that, exactly, that is "working"?

All you've done is pointed to a supposed time (1994?) when Republicans only held the House and yet got everything they wanted...without telling us what exactly they got, or how. You're just empty hot air.
 
2020-12-02 11:29:09 AM  

hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: BigSquibowski: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.

I simply have no farks left to give for fascists and fascist enablers in either political party. We are four years away from electing a dictator, it's time for Democrats to act with some urgency to prevent that because Republicans are going to use every ounce of their power and will to make it happen.

Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.

Fark that, this shiathole country isn't worth dying for. This is what you want, you fight for it. I'm out.

Well maybe its not worth dying for its borders or its flag but it is the country that has most of my loved ones and all of my stuff so I'm willing to fight for it.


Then I guess it's time to get your rifle and get out there, tough guy.
 
2020-12-02 11:30:08 AM  

Sliding Carp: The Homer Tax: SolderGlob: You know how the GOP shut out the entire Democratic party when drafting their Tax Scam bill, then only gave them two hours to read it prior to voting on it?

Democrats need to do that when they have the power. Sadly, they don't have the power going into 2021 to do anything meaningful since the Senate exists, but when they do have power they should wield it the same way the GOP does.

So this is kind of my whole point, right? Democrats *don't* have the power to do anything really, so balling up your fists and screaming "DO SOMETHING!" is pissing into the wind.

They have the power to unleash AOC and the other progressives.  By stifling them, the status quo becomes the most liberal  possible point in the discourse, and things can only move to the right, little by little, ratcheting along as every step is always to the right, and at every step the national Democratic leadership builds a wall at exactly where we are and calls it "the center."


What does "unleash AOC" mean specifically? How specifically are she and other progressives being "stifled?"

Difficulty: moderate Democrats disagreeing with progressive Democrats on things != "stifling" them.
 
2020-12-02 11:31:22 AM  

cherryl taggart: Need to get Ted Lieu's team on it.  Get them to start pulling up video and audio clips, of each one smirking off whatever equates.  Since we have verified that there's always a tweet, and every accusation is a confession, there's a treasure trove to be flung in the face of whoever is pearl clutching.

Before allowing whatever Congresscritter is trying to get in your camera or microphone, pull up your handy file of clips from 2015-2020.  Have your production assistant waiting to hear whatever is the pearl of the moment, and as soon as that critter takes a breath, roll the archive material.


They.

Don't.

Care.

And neither does their constituency.  They don't care.  This tactic has been a centerpiece of the liberal strategy since the late years of the Bush presidency, when social media and easy sharing of video began.  Playing their words back to them (and the public) does absolutely nothing.  There is literally NOTHING they will not ignore, pivot, or flip on if it serves them in that moment.

Stop suggesting we double down on political foam swords and media Nerf guns.  Focus on those that can actually be moved with pressure - blue politicians and policy makers, and growing the voting base from the incredibly huge mass of non-voters.  Pay zero attention to the calls of "how will we pay for this" or "what will the midwest think" or "what about the deficit" or "socialist takeover" or literally any euphemisms they will start pounding on January 20th - states rights, war on terror, war on drugs, law and order, family values, etc, etc.

The GOP is not going to work in good faith.  Period, end of story.  No amount of shame, pressure, or Aaron Sorkin verbal takedown fantasies is going to do a farking thing.  We've had 20 years of this ineffectual BS.
 
2020-12-02 11:32:35 AM  

AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: hugadarn: AdmirableSnackbar: BigSquibowski: Snatch Bandergrip: Lot of Farkers biatch about Snacky but won't put him on ignore.

Ignoring things you may not like does not make them go away. IE, Trump about Biden's win.
He also makes a lot of good points but is a little off the deep end, for me.

I simply have no farks left to give for fascists and fascist enablers in either political party. We are four years away from electing a dictator, it's time for Democrats to act with some urgency to prevent that because Republicans are going to use every ounce of their power and will to make it happen.

Then I guess its time to get your rifle and get out there tough guy.

Fark that, this shiathole country isn't worth dying for. This is what you want, you fight for it. I'm out.

Well maybe its not worth dying for its borders or its flag but it is the country that has most of my loved ones and all of my stuff so I'm willing to fight for it.

Then I guess it's time to get your rifle and get out there, tough guy.


When I run out of other options I would. I dont believe it will ever come to that. But if let's say trump went full military coup.
 
2020-12-02 11:32:40 AM  
Honestly they're better off just ignoring bullshiat Republican posturing. Treat them all like the irrelevant fringe conspiracy nutters and country club jagoffs they are.
 
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