Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Voice of San Diego)   Anti-cheating software monitoring students through their webcam. What could go wrong?   (voiceofsandiego.org) divider line
    More: Creepy, Privacy, Information privacy, Electronic Privacy Information Center, 31-year-old student, Student, William Scott Molina, Data privacy, facial detection data  
•       •       •

5975 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Dec 2020 at 12:53 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



66 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2020-11-30 7:03:31 PM  
How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?
 
2020-11-30 9:27:03 PM  
I just thought of a way for many of the students to get their education paid for.
Unfortunately, uggos will still have to pay.

as is tradition
 
2020-12-01 1:03:43 AM  

theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?


Well, with lab classes being canceled, since everything is digital, I guess we will have to come to the conclusion that people who work on a computer all day are not doing anything useful.

/oh, it felt so good to type that
 
2020-12-01 1:04:07 AM  

theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?


Like chopping wood?
 
2020-12-01 1:04:07 AM  

theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?


If it's worth doing it's worth cheating at
 
2020-12-01 1:04:45 AM  
So subby nothing went wrong.  Student was flagged for not following prearranged rules, strange behavior (talking to himself makes it seem like he is talking to someone  off camera). He gets warning then it happens again and he gets failed.  There is an appeal process and it works he gets to explain himself and the grade he earned is awarded.   So again nothing goes wrong.  Works as designed.
 
2020-12-01 1:10:13 AM  

theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?


Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.
 
2020-12-01 1:12:06 AM  
If they can use a computer to get the answers, why do they even need to go to school?
 
2020-12-01 1:16:16 AM  

Begoggle: If they can use a computer to get the answers, why do they even need to go to school?


🤔
 
2020-12-01 1:18:22 AM  

Begoggle: If they can use a computer to get the answers, why do they even need to go to school?


Mostly because we all know that's going on and we want to put on airs that it isn't going on.
and also it's a good way to force people out who can't afford to get the answers they need .
Same thing goes on with companies that drug test but not frequently enough to actually catch anyone.

Selective enforcement is another good example.

As the same gimmick behind homeowners association and job applications they're not really looking for people they're just keeping certain people out
 
2020-12-01 1:25:27 AM  
This seems like it create a whole host of invasion of privacy issues and there could end up being lawsuits. There are all kinds of ways the AI could end up making mistakes and getting students in trouble or kicked out of school for supposed cheating. I don't advocate cheating but if you were going to do it, wear a hat, a mask, and sunglasses. Problem solved.
 
2020-12-01 1:34:51 AM  

kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.


I teach math also ... high school. The go to for our students is photomath. And now we are putting pretty much everything on Canvas so of course cheating will be rampant. I teach to the 10-20% who care. Honors classes may be a bit higher. The sluggards who are determined to cheat will. And just for fun:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-12-01 1:36:17 AM  

Sam's Club Sandwich: I don't advocate cheating but if you were going to do it, wear a hat, a mask, and sunglasses. Problem solved.


From the proctoring company's website

Make sure your face is well-lit, not in shadow; the exam video recorder uses facial recognition to track and flag activity for instructors to check.

Wearing a mask and sunglasses would be an auto fail.
 
2020-12-01 1:53:19 AM  

theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?


The only thing you can't cheat at is work that extends the domain of human knowledge. It takes decades of learning just to reach the point that you understand the limits of human knowledge, let alone extend it.
 
2020-12-01 1:59:53 AM  
On the other hand I want to say that I saw a case where one of these teacher-spy apps saved a student's ass - a bug in Canvas caused the student's answer to appear blank when the teacher reviewed it, but the teacher-spy app that recorded the student's screen showed the student entering and saving the work.
 
2020-12-01 2:30:31 AM  
Those assholes stole the wrong answers!
 
2020-12-01 2:33:24 AM  

kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.


The solution I found to this is to use slightly different initial conditions to each test. For example, in one the bridge is 1006 ft long, in another it's 998 ft. long, etc. The value should be small enough not to significantly change the answer, but it makes a difference in the digits of all the intermediary calculations. While this does not eliminate the possibility of cheating entirely, it makes it more difficult, as well as immediately obvious if an answer gets posted online.
 
2020-12-01 2:34:22 AM  
My school uses Remote Proctor Now and the major issue I had with it was with regards to the test environment.  They make you take a practice test at the beginning of the semester to make sure you have the software installed correctly and what not.  No problems there.  So now the day of the exam comes and I go to start the exam.  "We've detected a second monitor on your PC.  Disconnect it and run the scan again".  WTF?? Not that I was using it for the exam so I just shut it off.  Not good enough.  Physically unplugged from the back of the PC.  Pain in the ass, but whatever.  Take the exam and did ok.

Then the email comes with the cheating violation notices
-Talking to yourself
-whispering to yourself (which i guess is different from talking to yourself)
-a second computer monitor was present at the test sight

So after 45 minutes on zoom with the lady from the school, I find out that not only can you not have a second monitor hooked up to the PC when you take the exam, the second monitor cannot even be physically on the desk during the test, despite their software knowing that it is not hooked up to the PC you are using, AND there's a webcam recording me not using said second monitor.

From the study groups, I know for a fact that my setup was like many others in the group: two monitors, one for watching the videos of lecture and a second one to have the online textbook opened to follow along with the professor.

I made it clear to my advisor from the school exactly what I thought of having to basically disassemble the study area I spent time planning and putting together to be successful in order to take a test was.  She promised the school would look into modifying that part of their test taking policy, but it hasn't been changed.  I didn't even register for spring classes because this issue is that much of a pain in the ass for me.
 
2020-12-01 2:41:50 AM  

kcoombs69: My school uses Remote Proctor Now and the major issue I had with it was with regards to the test environment.  They make you take a practice test at the beginning of the semester to make sure you have the software installed correctly and what not.  No problems there.  So now the day of the exam comes and I go to start the exam.  "We've detected a second monitor on your PC.  Disconnect it and run the scan again".  WTF?? Not that I was using it for the exam so I just shut it off.  Not good enough.  Physically unplugged from the back of the PC.  Pain in the ass, but whatever.  Take the exam and did ok.

Then the email comes with the cheating violation notices
-Talking to yourself
-whispering to yourself (which i guess is different from talking to yourself)
-a second computer monitor was present at the test sight

So after 45 minutes on zoom with the lady from the school, I find out that not only can you not have a second monitor hooked up to the PC when you take the exam, the second monitor cannot even be physically on the desk during the test, despite their software knowing that it is not hooked up to the PC you are using, AND there's a webcam recording me not using said second monitor.

From the study groups, I know for a fact that my setup was like many others in the group: two monitors, one for watching the videos of lecture and a second one to have the online textbook opened to follow along with the professor.

I made it clear to my advisor from the school exactly what I thought of having to basically disassemble the study area I spent time planning and putting together to be successful in order to take a test was.  She promised the school would look into modifying that part of their test taking policy, but it hasn't been changed.  I didn't even register for spring classes because this issue is that much of a pain in the ass for me.


The reason for the second monitor thing is people who essentially have two computers: One for the lockdown browser and one that's unlockdowned. That being said, ALL of that should have been part of the protocol during the practice test. It should have flagged the practice test as having a second monitor and/or a second monitor on the desk and/or "whispering" so these issues can be sorted up before anything else happens. A dress rehearsal is meaningless if all the conditions change halfway through the real thing.
 
2020-12-01 2:50:10 AM  

KoreanZombie: So subby nothing went wrong.  Student was flagged for not following prearranged rules, strange behavior (talking to himself makes it seem like he is talking to someone  off camera). He gets warning then it happens again and he gets failed.  There is an appeal process and it works he gets to explain himself and the grade he earned is awarded.   So again nothing goes wrong.  Works as designed.


Except the potential for assigned scholarships is based on grades issued before the semester even ends. So someone fighting is, not only going to have to deal with the stress of potentially being financially farked over, but also actually get financially get farked over.

You sound parent funded. Please don't take this personally when I say that your comment makes me hope you die of cancer
 
2020-12-01 2:52:40 AM  

Sam's Club Sandwich: This seems like it create a whole host of invasion of privacy issues and there could end up being lawsuits. There are all kinds of ways the AI could end up making mistakes and getting students in trouble or kicked out of school for supposed cheating. I don't advocate cheating but if you were going to do it, wear a hat, a mask, and sunglasses. Problem solved.


The AI doesn't make mistakes because it's not tasked with making a proper determination. The AI notes potential behaviors and the time stamp for the professor to review and take action or not. If there's a mistake, it's still made by meat.
Privacy issues, I dunno how you could solve it without making students rent test cubicles or something. Or I guess having them wear blinders like a horse, and ear plugs.
 
2020-12-01 2:53:32 AM  

Enigmamf: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

The only thing you can't cheat at is work that extends the domain of human knowledge. It takes decades of learning just to reach the point that you understand the limits of human knowledge, let alone extend it.


They added a component to the bar exam years back, starting in California, where you basically write an argument given a client's problem and a dozen pages of court opinions and statutes. The task requires too much concentration to hand off to someone else, and the best way to prepare is to be good at writing a legal memo, which is kind of a good measure of whether you should pass.

The only downside is that the problems take a while to write and aren't as easy to grade as a scantron.

//anyway the other 80% of the test is rote memorization and multiple choice trick questions
 
2020-12-01 2:54:03 AM  

powhound: kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.

I teach math also ... high school. The go to for our students is photomath. And now we are putting pretty much everything on Canvas so of course cheating will be rampant. I teach to the 10-20% who care. Honors classes may be a bit higher. The sluggards who are determined to cheat will. And just for fun:

[Fark user image image 425x540]


Ok, so help me out here...
My first reaction was "life is an open book, so why are we forcing students to memorize? If a person can get me the answer, whether mentally or on a calculator, what's the issue?!"
Then I thought that humans need basic skills to build on when using calculators or computers.

What I'm coming up with is to remove the incentives for cheating, exams are marked, but grades are not recorded up to a certain level/grade, beyond that, go for the open book.

I just think college entry and job interviews should be more thorough.
 
2020-12-01 2:54:57 AM  

Resident Muslim: powhound: kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.

I teach math also ... high school. The go to for our students is photomath. And now we are putting pretty much everything on Canvas so of course cheating will be rampant. I teach to the 10-20% who care. Honors classes may be a bit higher. The sluggards who are determined to cheat will. And just for fun:

[Fark user image image 425x540]

Ok, so help me out here...
My first reaction was "life is an open book, so why are we forcing students to memorize? If a person can get me the answer, whether mentally or on a calculator, what's the issue?!"
Then I thought that humans need basic skills to build on when using calculators or computers.

What I'm coming up with is to remove the incentives for cheating, exams are marked, but grades are not recorded up to a certain level/grade, beyond that, go for the open book.

I just think college entry and job interviews should be more thorough.


Please let me know your thoughts and ideas, suggestions or even flaws in my thinking.

/taught a bunch of stuff ages ago, now focusing on human development
 
2020-12-01 2:55:31 AM  

flemardo: Sam's Club Sandwich: This seems like it create a whole host of invasion of privacy issues and there could end up being lawsuits. There are all kinds of ways the AI could end up making mistakes and getting students in trouble or kicked out of school for supposed cheating. I don't advocate cheating but if you were going to do it, wear a hat, a mask, and sunglasses. Problem solved.

The AI doesn't make mistakes because it's not tasked with making a proper determination. The AI notes potential behaviors and the time stamp for the professor to review and take action or not. If there's a mistake, it's still made by meat.
Privacy issues, I dunno how you could solve it without making students rent test cubicles or something. Or I guess having them wear blinders like a horse, and ear plugs.


The way we deal with privacy issues in america is paper over them with an I Agree button and a 20 page consent form no one reads.
 
2020-12-01 2:57:34 AM  

kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.


I think if I was in your position I'd just accept this too. Ultimately, if the students cheat their way to an A and then they come back to physical class next year and their grades plummet, oh well, that's karma. 'Course, if it's senior year then they get away with it.

It's not your job to over-police.
 
2020-12-01 3:08:44 AM  
As for the software, easy way to cheat: Hijab + earphone under the hijab + camera zoomed on your screen + someone on that zoomed camera giving answers.

/I do not condone cheating
 
2020-12-01 3:10:35 AM  

moothemagiccow: flemardo: Sam's Club Sandwich: This seems like it create a whole host of invasion of privacy issues and there could end up being lawsuits. There are all kinds of ways the AI could end up making mistakes and getting students in trouble or kicked out of school for supposed cheating. I don't advocate cheating but if you were going to do it, wear a hat, a mask, and sunglasses. Problem solved.

The AI doesn't make mistakes because it's not tasked with making a proper determination. The AI notes potential behaviors and the time stamp for the professor to review and take action or not. If there's a mistake, it's still made by meat.
Privacy issues, I dunno how you could solve it without making students rent test cubicles or something. Or I guess having them wear blinders like a horse, and ear plugs.

The way we deal with privacy issues in america is paper over them with an I Agree button and a 20 page consent form no one reads.


What exactly is the point of reading it ?
what? I'm actually going to not agree and then just live without that service ?
it's not like I'm in any position to negotiate
the contract that I'm being forced to agree to
it's not a question it's either agree or not agree
 
2020-12-01 3:11:23 AM  

Resident Muslim: As for the software, easy way to cheat: Hijab + earphone under the hijab + camera zoomed on your screen + someone on that zoomed camera giving answers.

/I do not condone cheating


😁
 
2020-12-01 3:15:30 AM  
"You have to record your environment, you have to record the whole desk, under the desk, the whole room," Molina recalled. "And you need to use a mirror to show that you don't have anything on your keyboard."

What in the fark?

I'll come in, thanks.

I have a desktop computer, and my workdesk is in my bedroom. My desk is covered in shiat, Arduinos, bills, whatever. My computer is hooked up to my TV on the wall and two 4k displays.

I would literally have to uproot my years of chair crease to sit an exam like that.
 
2020-12-01 3:16:45 AM  
I don't even own a webcam, do they supply you a webcam that supposedly records all of this?
 
2020-12-01 3:17:20 AM  
When you don't own a webcam, Zoom meetings aren't just pantsless.
 
2020-12-01 3:22:42 AM  
I would send them invoices for every piece of equipment I needed, and charge them camgirl rates per minute.
 
2020-12-01 3:22:46 AM  

Sim Tree: kcoombs69: My school uses Remote Proctor Now and the major issue I had with it was with regards to the test environment.  They make you take a practice test at the beginning of the semester to make sure you have the software installed correctly and what not.  No problems there.  So now the day of the exam comes and I go to start the exam.  "We've detected a second monitor on your PC.  Disconnect it and run the scan again".  WTF?? Not that I was using it for the exam so I just shut it off.  Not good enough.  Physically unplugged from the back of the PC.  Pain in the ass, but whatever.  Take the exam and did ok.

Then the email comes with the cheating violation notices
-Talking to yourself
-whispering to yourself (which i guess is different from talking to yourself)
-a second computer monitor was present at the test sight

So after 45 minutes on zoom with the lady from the school, I find out that not only can you not have a second monitor hooked up to the PC when you take the exam, the second monitor cannot even be physically on the desk during the test, despite their software knowing that it is not hooked up to the PC you are using, AND there's a webcam recording me not using said second monitor.

From the study groups, I know for a fact that my setup was like many others in the group: two monitors, one for watching the videos of lecture and a second one to have the online textbook opened to follow along with the professor.

I made it clear to my advisor from the school exactly what I thought of having to basically disassemble the study area I spent time planning and putting together to be successful in order to take a test was.  She promised the school would look into modifying that part of their test taking policy, but it hasn't been changed.  I didn't even register for spring classes because this issue is that much of a pain in the ass for me.

The reason for the second monitor thing is people who essentially have two computers: One for the lockdown browser and on ...


I fully understood the reasoning behind the second monitor thing, but their point fell apart when it's pointed out that whether the second monitor is there or not, I'm on video the whole time.  You can see what's going on.  But to go that route would require a human to look at the video for 8 seconds instead of 2 and we just can't have that.  Humans are expensive.

As for the sound violations, best we could figure out was that cars driving by were picked up by the microphone.  It was nice out and I had the windows cracked and I live closeish to the road.  They said after watching the videos at the time stamp the system flagged them at I actually had my chin in my hand and was reading a question, and most definitely didn't make a sound.
 
2020-12-01 4:12:25 AM  

Resident Muslim: Resident Muslim: powhound: kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.

I teach math also ... high school. The go to for our students is photomath. And now we are putting pretty much everything on Canvas so of course cheating will be rampant. I teach to the 10-20% who care. Honors classes may be a bit higher. The sluggards who are determined to cheat will. And just for fun:

[Fark user image image 425x540]

Ok, so help me out here...
My first reaction was "life is an open book, so why are we forcing students to memorize? If a person can get me the answer, whether mentally or on a calculator, what's the issue?!"
Then I thought that humans need basic skills to build on when using calculators or computers.

What I'm coming up with is to remove the incentives for cheating, exams are marked, but grades are not recorded up to a certain level/grade, beyond that, go for the open book.

I just think college entry and job interviews should be more thorough.

Please let me know your thoughts and ideas, suggestions or even flaws in my thinking.

/taught a bunch of stuff ages ago, now focusing on human development


So first off ... EIP if you are interested in a continued discussion. This is a fascinating subject for me. And an important one.

Collaboration is a huge thing. The sum is greater than the parts. Our education system needs to somehow reflect that endeavor.

At the same time, the weakest links are those who have their own ideas that don't mesh. Or maybe they do at a different level that the majority don't get. Or those that don't have a clue and are like whatever let's go get a beer.

It's important that people have a solid foundation from their education at a personal level, but it's also important that they can apply what they know and work with others to create a greater foundation.

In short, I don't have answers. I can say in my earlier years of teaching having big tests taken individually was what I did and what most did and what most probably still do.

These days I'm more focused on collaboration. I think the majority of kids are willing to work together and as they say... raise all the boats with the tide.

But then the standardized tests come in. The ACT or SAT comes in. And now it's just you and your brain.

No easy answers here.
 
2020-12-01 5:22:44 AM  
South Park Cartman Zoom Call
Youtube riqswI-kBoI
 
2020-12-01 5:37:11 AM  
Ah. So the country is only going to get dumber. Awesome.
 
2020-12-01 6:03:40 AM  

powhound: kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.

I teach math also ... high school. The go to for our students is photomath. And now we are putting pretty much everything on Canvas so of course cheating will be rampant. I teach to the 10-20% who care. Honors classes may be a bit higher. The sluggards who are determined to cheat will. And just for fun:

[Fark user image image 425x540]


I just showed this to my husband, who has math degrees (and is also a Pilots n Paws pilot) and he said, "Sigh.  This f*cking country."

That being said.

If you happen to have any insights on how math could be better taught in the US, please send your soapbox to me at ultrafark.  Some folks in Texas are interested in what my husband has to say about the matter, and since you seem like a kindred spirit, and since you actually teach, I thought I'd ask you too.
 
2020-12-01 7:13:36 AM  

Resident Muslim: As for the software, easy way to cheat: Hijab + earphone under the hijab + camera zoomed on your screen + someone on that zoomed camera giving answers.

/I do not condone cheating


Allahu Akbar!  OK, I'm a Muslim now too.  Guys can wear a hijab too, right?
 
2020-12-01 7:17:38 AM  
Too many false positives.

My daughter uses this because she is home from college due to the virus. The whole house has to go on silent running because if the dog barks or someone's phone rings the software hears cheating. She was taking histology and if she leaned in to look at a slide better the software assumed she was looking at notes off the screen. her grade went from an F to an A when we got her a large monitor and better camera.

I remember one of my engineering professors: can we bring notes, yes. Can we bring a book, yes. When you get a job your boss will never ask you to do it from memory why should I.
 
2020-12-01 7:29:50 AM  
Room 101 is getting full.
 
2020-12-01 8:28:10 AM  

Cheron: Too many false positives.

My daughter uses this because she is home from college due to the virus. The whole house has to go on silent running because if the dog barks or someone's phone rings the software hears cheating. She was taking histology and if she leaned in to look at a slide better the software assumed she was looking at notes off the screen. her grade went from an F to an A when we got her a large monitor and better camera.

I remember one of my engineering professors: can we bring notes, yes. Can we bring a book, yes. When you get a job your boss will never ask you to do it from memory why should I.


This is one of the principles I use when teaching middle school math and science.  Thankfully, my new science curriculum isn't memorization.  There really is too much to memorize, plus the access to it online.  For math - we work together in groups - in fact, I encourage them to argue answers "I did this" "No, I got this".  And then they work it out.   I also have the average math group, so they've been told for years that they're no good at maths.  Drives me to violent anger!

1950s education can't continue in the 2020s.  Nor should it.
 
2020-12-01 8:37:56 AM  

powhound: Resident Muslim: Resident Muslim: powhound: kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.

I teach math also ... high school. The go to for our students is photomath. And now we are putting pretty much everything on Canvas so of course cheating will be rampant. I teach to the 10-20% who care. Honors classes may be a bit higher. The sluggards who are determined to cheat will. And just for fun:

[Fark user image image 425x540]

Ok, so help me out here...
My first reaction was "life is an open book, so why are we forcing students to memorize? If a person can get me the answer, whether mentally or on a calculator, what's the issue?!"
Then I thought that humans need basic skills to build on when using calculators or computers.

What I'm coming up with is to remove the incentives for cheating, exams are marked, but grades are not recorded up to a certain level/grade, beyond that, go for the open book.

I just think college entry and job interviews should be more thorough.

Please let me know your thoughts and ideas, suggestions or even flaws in my thinking.

/taught a bunch of stuff ages ago, now focusing on human development

So first off ... EIP if you are interested in a continued discussion. This is a fascinating subject for me. And an important one.

Collaboration is a huge thing. The sum is greater than the parts. Our education system needs to somehow reflect that endeavor.

At the same time, the weakest links are those who have their own ideas that don't mesh. Or maybe they do at a different level that the majority don't get. Or those that don't have a clue and are like whatever let's go get a beer.

It's important that people have a solid foundation from their education at a personal level, but it's also important that they can apply what they know and work with others to create a greater foundation.

In short, I don't have answers. I can say in my earlier years of teaching having big tests taken individually was what I did and what most did and what most probably still do.

These days I'm more focused on collaboration. I think the majority of kids are willing to work together and as they say... raise all the boats with the tide.

But then the standardized tests come in. The ACT or SAT comes in. And now it's just you and your brain.

No easy answers here.


Very true. Our education system is built on years of individual competition, especially when grades are curved.
How can organizations even expect high levels of cooperation of employees after all of those years of conditioning??
 
2020-12-01 8:38:21 AM  
Sounds like American universities have taken a dump on the Fourth Amendment because Aleister Crowley stated he can prevent all cheating forever so long as they believe in him enough to write a check with enough zeros.
 
2020-12-01 8:41:17 AM  

Resident Muslim: powhound: Resident Muslim: Resident Muslim: powhound: kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.

I teach math also ... high school. The go to for our students is photomath. And now we are putting pretty much everything on Canvas so of course cheating will be rampant. I teach to the 10-20% who care. Honors classes may be a bit higher. The sluggards who are determined to cheat will. And just for fun:

[Fark user image image 425x540]

Ok, so help me out here...
My first reaction was "life is an open book, so why are we forcing students to memorize? If a person can get me the answer, whether mentally or on a calculator, what's the issue?!"
Then I thought that humans need basic skills to build on when using calculators or computers.

What I'm coming up with is to remove the incentives for cheating, exams are marked, but grades are not recorded up to a certain level/grade, beyond that, go for the open book.

I just think college entry and job interviews should be more thorough.

Please let me know your thoughts and ideas, suggestions or even flaws in my thinking.

/taught a bunch of stuff ages ago, now focusing on human development

So first off ... EIP if you are interested in a continued discussion. This is a fascinating subject for me. And an important one.

Collaboration is a huge thing. The sum is greater than the parts. Our education system needs to somehow reflect that endeavor.

At the same time, the weakest links are those who have their own ideas that don't mesh. Or maybe they do at a different level that the majority don't get. Or those that don't have a clue and are like whatever let's go get a beer.

It's important that people have a solid foundation from their education at a personal level, but it's also important that they can apply what they know and work with others to create a greater foundation.

In short, I don't have answers. I can say in my earlier years of teaching having big tests taken individually was what I did and what most did and what most probably still do.

These days I'm more focused on collaboration. I think the majority of kids are willing to work together and as they say... raise all the boats with the tide.

But then the standardized tests come in. The ACT or SAT comes in. And now it's just you and your brain.

No easy answers here.

Very true. Our education system is built on years of individual competition, especially when grades are curved.
How can organizations even expect high levels of cooperation of employees after all of those years of conditioning??


Sorry, I forgot to add; IIRC the Swedish model actually doesn't have grading for a number of years, then doesn't do class ranking as other countries do.

My elder son had a very decent relationship with his classmates where the most advanced ones were really competitive on how got better grades, but were also really supportive out of class and helping each other study.
They are now in decent universities.
 
2020-12-01 8:56:08 AM  

Cheron: Too many false positives.

My daughter uses this because she is home from college due to the virus. The whole house has to go on silent running because if the dog barks or someone's phone rings the software hears cheating. She was taking histology and if she leaned in to look at a slide better the software assumed she was looking at notes off the screen. her grade went from an F to an A when we got her a large monitor and better camera.

I remember one of my engineering professors: can we bring notes, yes. Can we bring a book, yes. When you get a job your boss will never ask you to do it from memory why should I.


It's stronger than that.  If your boss catches you spending time reinventing something that is easily found online, you'll get a poor review.  Furthermore, if you've been stuck on something for a while, you better damn well have asked your colleagues and the internet for help instead of just spinning your wheels.  Good engineering is collaborative.
 
2020-12-01 8:58:32 AM  

ViolentEastCoastCity: powhound: kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.

I teach math also ... high school. The go to for our students is photomath. And now we are putting pretty much everything on Canvas so of course cheating will be rampant. I teach to the 10-20% who care. Honors classes may be a bit higher. The sluggards who are determined to cheat will. And just for fun:

[Fark user image image 425x540]

I just showed this to my husband, who has math degrees (and is also a Pilots n Paws pilot) and he said, "Sigh.  This f*cking country."

That being said.

If you happen to have any insights on how math could be better taught in the US, please send your soapbox to me at ultrafark.  Some folks in Texas are interested in what my husband has to say about the matter, and since you seem like a kindred spirit, and since you actually teach, I thought I'd ask you too.


In Montessori schools, math is taught in multiple ways. Montessori teachers use a lot of manipulatives especially with younger children. As the children get older and their work becomes more abstract, they are assigned projects. Take this recipe and make two and half batches. Read this information on Bubonic Plague and calculate how fast it would spread from Los Angeles to New York City or how many people it would kill. Take these tools, this leaf blower, and build a hovercraft.

They avoid the anxiety about cheating in multiple ways also. Computers are rarely used. Calculators are not used until maybe seventh or eighth grade. Grades are almost never given. Of course, there are drawbacks. There's no top ten percent of the class. Even more important, there's no bottom ten percent of the class for the rest of us to look down on and feel smug about; no group that will spend years post-graduation stuttering through explanations as to why they were in the bottom ten percent; no group to pay tuition, study to the detriment of all other areas of their lives and yet face a life time of lesser opportunities.

We could simply implement pass-fail in all university subjects switching to project based "finals" rather than tests until the pandemic is over, but that wouldn't provide the same sadistic satisfaction.
 
2020-12-01 9:00:12 AM  
How is a student to focus and cope with test anxiety when a camera is watching them and someone they can't see on the other end is telling them not to move too much or flagging them for looking at their screen the wrong way. That's some crazy shiat just to prevent cheating. Should err on the side of privacy and potential for cheating than to prevent all cheating.  Give them open book tests and let them use their notes. Some will still fail. 
i.ytimg.comView Full Size
 
2020-12-01 9:13:50 AM  
I'm required to use a lock down browser software/camera for my MBA program exams. It locks your computer from internet use. It actually checks your face against school or state issued ID before the exam starts. And you're required to show your surroundings to be sure nothing is hidden beyond camera rage. We are allowed to use notes and our book on the exams, so they're just checking to be sure that you're you when you take the exam. However it does monitor your face. I went to grab some notes and it told me it couldn't see my face so it paused my exam for a moment. I'm used to this in my online programs now.
 
2020-12-01 9:32:09 AM  

kevinatilusa: theteacher: How about we start giving students meaningful work where there cannot be cheating?

Easier said than done.  I teach math.  Many of my students are subscribers of paid "homework help" sites that promise that if you just upload a question there'll be a full solution posted within 60 minutes.

What this means in practice is that any time I give an exam, every question finds its way onto Chegg, Bartleby, and similar sites within the first few minutes of the exam, and students just copy the posted solutions as their answers.  The same holds true with more open-ended/exploratory questions when I give them out as homework.

I haven't used proctoring software or required webcams to be on (for the privacy reasons mentioned in the article), and I've just accepted as a consequence of this that cheating is going to be rampant.


Man, was I a sucker. I went through my entire career without cheating. I'd probably get caught anyway. Apparently, all the cool kids are doing it (do my homework websites?).

Anyhow, this seems like overly sensitive technology. Perhaps just trust the students not to cheat, unless there are some indicators in their work to support the software's accusations?  Compare the grade on the exam to the grade so far in the course?  If a C student suddenly gets an A on the exam, yeah, well, maybe it's worth a look. Otherwise, treat the software as an overly sensitive input and balance it against your teacher's intuition about the student?
 
Displayed 50 of 66 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking





On Twitter



  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.