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(Engadget)   Folksvagon may release a small EV for $24,000 - $30,000, in trendy neon colors no doubt. Optional packages may include AM radio and heater, or windshield wipers and defroster. No, no AC option available   (engadget.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Electric vehicle, European Union, Automobile, Vehicle, affordable electric vehicle offering, Electric car, Battery Electric Vehicle, Plug-in hybrid  
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1298 clicks; posted to Business » and STEM » on 30 Nov 2020 at 12:41 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-11-29 8:05:59 PM  
Crotch cooler?
 
2020-11-29 8:23:28 PM  
This bad boy goes into production in 2022

Fark user imageView Full Size


Fark user imageView Full Size

Fark user imageView Full Size

^^^^^^^ Check out the pedals, pause and play lol
 
2020-11-29 8:53:19 PM  
I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

I owned a 2001 Polo when I lived in Iceland and it was a great car.  Compact, but roomy, well built, and trouble free for a year, despite the previous owner completely neglecting it.

If they can get the range up to around 150 miles on a charge, it would cost me nothing to operate, since we have a free electricity plan from 8Pm to 5AM.
 
2020-11-30 12:42:18 AM  
I'm wondering when some countries (like Oz) will start to require A/C in cars.  Road rage increases like crazy on very hot days and A/C does help that a bit.

I could deal with a polo sized car but I use my roof rack way too much bringing stuff home from the big box home improvement store.  For $20k, I don't expect them to waste money on the roof rack mounting holes and any roof rack would screw up the aerodynamics so bad it might give it a 20 minute range.
 
2020-11-30 12:47:55 AM  
They won't even bring the ID.3 over here to the US as too many Americans apparently believe their cars should be so large that they can finally overcompensate for microphallism.
 
2020-11-30 12:51:13 AM  

nyseattitude: This bad boy goes into production in 2022

[Fark user image 850x637]

[Fark user image 800x533]
[Fark user image 850x425]
^^^^^^^ Check out the pedals, pause and play lol


Too large for my lifestyle but I have to admit it is cool af.

Volkswagen is rapidly upending my idea of the most awesome all-time automakers list.

1. Citroen
2. Alfa Romeo
3. Mercury
4. Jaguar
5. Volkswagen
6. MINI
 
2020-11-30 1:07:25 AM  
My VW bugs heaters just managed to burn your ankles, the defroster was manual (do not forget your gloves) and you could take the whole car apart with a 13mm wrench.  I loved those cars.
 
2020-11-30 1:37:31 AM  

pjbreeze: My VW bugs heaters just managed to burn your ankles, the defroster was manual (do not forget your gloves) and you could take the whole car apart with a 13mm wrench.  I loved those cars.


Later VW would use 11mm wrench for things that you needed to take special care of.  Like the clutch cable into the transmission was the odd size because if you didn't clean the dirt away, you would knock it all into the transmission so don't do that.  There were more on metal bracket that had a strong spring which was "these are not the bolts you are looking for"
 
2020-11-30 1:38:26 AM  

DON.MAC: I'm wondering when some countries (like Oz) will start to require A/C in cars.  Road rage increases like crazy on very hot days and A/C does help that a bit.



abc.net.auView Full Size


You already do need it... 118 deg F...
 
2020-11-30 1:48:24 AM  
VW lied to us
 
2020-11-30 1:58:34 AM  

Visual Howlaround Title Sequence: nyseattitude: This bad boy goes into production in 2022

[Fark user image 850x637]

[Fark user image 800x533]
[Fark user image 850x425]
^^^^^^^ Check out the pedals, pause and play lol

Too large for my lifestyle but I have to admit it is cool af.

Volkswagen is rapidly upending my idea of the most awesome all-time automakers list.

1. Citroen
2. Alfa Romeo
3. Mercury
4. Jaguar
5. Volkswagen
6. MINI


LOL. Not sure if serious.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-30 4:23:44 AM  

Big Dave: VW lied to us


Ironically dieselgate might have been VW's saving grace. With no fossil fuels "efficiency" reputation to protect they went all in on electric, and now have a 2 years lead on the bulk of the legacy automakers.
 
2020-11-30 4:54:31 AM  

neaorin: Big Dave: VW lied to us

Ironically dieselgate might have been VW's saving grace. With no fossil fuels "efficiency" reputation to protect they went all in on electric, and now have a 2 years lead on the bulk of the legacy automakers.


You more or less beat me to it, but there is no irony about it. The German government, after scolding VW a few times and making sure they have their ducks in a row, has made a deal with VW. This is classic industrial policy. The German Govt will give VW a large market by affecting EU legislation to favor zero emission vehicles. It will keep the Japanese from complaining too much because it will also favor hydrogen vehicles and wind to H2 development. And in exchange, VW will have to go back to its roots and provide a VOLKS car for the common man.

That is the deal. And VW looks ready to meet its part of the bargain.

But before everyone starts yelling foul, consider what VW is on the hook for. It is not going to make money from these cars, for one. It will have support in developing products and markets, but it is going into this BEV market producing low end, low profit vehicles that will have to be produced on a huge scale to recoup design and development. It will work out in the end because VW will get a huge European market and probably a chunk of the US and Latin America too. Realistically, it will not be able to compete in Asia. Not at this end of the market anyway.

I don't know why everyone thinks that VW or anyone else has some kind of "lead" in BEVs, but oh well.
 
2020-11-30 5:25:05 AM  

markie_farkie: I'd buy one in a heartbeat.


If they can get the range up to around 150 miles on a charge, it would cost me nothing to operate, since we have a free electricity plan from 8Pm to 5AM.


To give 150 mile range to this thing, offhand I would say they will need a 30--35 kWh battery in it, which is more or less what a Leaf has. At 100V, that will take about 6--8 hours to charge fully, is my guess.

The thing is, that will be plenty. And what excites me about what VW appears to be doing is that they are finally concentrating on producing a GREEN car. A battery vehicle, in my opinion, is a more or less urban/suburban vehicle which moves ideally at slow speeds for short distances. The Beetle was not made to be ideal for all people. It was not a luxury tour de force. It was a car for an average person to lead a modern life.... for the people.

The Leaf fell short because people (and probably Nissan) had overly high expectations and were disappointed. A TRS-80 or SInclair of BEVs. Tesla vehicles fall short because they are way overspec and way overpriced to really lead a movement beyond snob appeal. The early MAC desktops and NEXT computers. What VW is doing here is to create an IBM clone for our era: something cheap and fun that everyone can use and adapt to their lifestyle.

The risk? Well. The risk faced by IBM clones. Fierce competition for this market segment. Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Nissan, and at least one other Japanese company. A Taiwan venture, probably. Then the Chinese and Indians will have a contender or three in a couple years. Ford and GM probably will not even try to compete. You are getting into a difficult area where, if your production is not super cheap and super developed, you just can't compete. Even fighting for a niche is expensive. GM hasn't even got the guts to stand behind its Bolt.
 
2020-11-30 5:47:31 AM  

neaorin: Big Dave: VW lied to us

Ironically dieselgate might have been VW's saving grace. With no fossil fuels "efficiency" reputation to protect they went all in on electric, and now have a 2 years lead on the bulk of the legacy automakers.


I wonder who this is, really. Toyota was producing and selling BEV RAVs in like, 2012. Nissan has been selling the Leaf regularly for almost a decade. Audi for a couple of years. BMW for over 7 years now, Buick for two years. BYD for 8 years. Chery. Chevy. Honda Hyundai Jaguar Kia Lada Lotus Mazda Mitsubishi for a decade  Nissan Opel  Peugeot   Porsche  Renault Skoda Tesla    etc. And VW since 2013.

So.

For everyone who thinks Tesla and VW have been leading some kind of revolution and changing a paradigm, there you go. There is effectively, no "legacy laggard" in this narrative. Except apparently Ford. Many different companies have been plugging away and finding ways to establish a niche and find a market. Some have entered and left the market a couple of times. VW is not getting a "head start" here. VW got its head start five years before dieselgate. It was so excited about BEVs then that it bet the mortgage on diesel to win.

If anything, the "excitement" has come from legislation more or less forcing huge markets to adopt BEVs whether they like it or not. VW now has a good product. A great price. And a captive market. But people have shown over and over, with many companies, that they don't like EVs. That might change. But by and large, it is not because companies have not tried. It is because people do not buy their cars.
 
2020-11-30 6:08:33 AM  

2fardownthread: neaorin: Big Dave: VW lied to us

Ironically dieselgate might have been VW's saving grace. With no fossil fuels "efficiency" reputation to protect they went all in on electric, and now have a 2 years lead on the bulk of the legacy automakers.

I wonder who this is, really. Toyota was producing and selling BEV RAVs in like, 2012. Nissan has been selling the Leaf regularly for almost a decade. Audi for a couple of years. BMW for over 7 years now, Buick for two years. BYD for 8 years. Chery. Chevy. Honda Hyundai Jaguar Kia Lada Lotus Mazda Mitsubishi for a decade  Nissan Opel  Peugeot   Porsche  Renault Skoda Tesla    etc. And VW since 2013.

So.

For everyone who thinks Tesla and VW have been leading some kind of revolution and changing a paradigm, there you go. There is effectively, no "legacy laggard" in this narrative. Except apparently Ford. Many different companies have been plugging away and finding ways to establish a niche and find a market. Some have entered and left the market a couple of times. VW is not getting a "head start" here. VW got its head start five years before dieselgate. It was so excited about BEVs then that it bet the mortgage on diesel to win.

If anything, the "excitement" has come from legislation more or less forcing huge markets to adopt BEVs whether they like it or not. VW now has a good product. A great price. And a captive market. But people have shown over and over, with many companies, that they don't like EVs. That might change. But by and large, it is not because companies have not tried. It is because people do not buy their cars.


When my wife was looking for a replacement for her 04 golf, she wanted an e golf. We couldn't find one anywhere. Clearly, people are buying them.
 
2020-11-30 6:56:31 AM  
That is good, still a bit pricey for me, I will hopefully get on the next gen or so.
 
2020-11-30 7:07:39 AM  

2fardownthread: It will keep the Japanese from complaining too much because it will also favor hydrogen vehicles


Lol. Why do you keep saying this? The Japanese are not going to do hydrogen
 
2020-11-30 7:11:03 AM  

Visual Howlaround Title Sequence: nyseattitude: This bad boy goes into production in 2022

[Fark user image 850x637]

[Fark user image 800x533]
[Fark user image 850x425]
^^^^^^^ Check out the pedals, pause and play lol

Too large for my lifestyle but I have to admit it is cool af.

Volkswagen is rapidly upending my idea of the most awesome all-time automakers list.

1. Citroen
2. Alfa Romeo
3. Mercury
4. Jaguar
5. Volkswagen
6. MINI


You might want to watch the show Dirty Money on Netflix, episode one and see how you feel about VW then.
 
2020-11-30 7:21:46 AM  

2fardownthread: neaorin: Big Dave: VW lied to us

Ironically dieselgate might have been VW's saving grace. With no fossil fuels "efficiency" reputation to protect they went all in on electric, and now have a 2 years lead on the bulk of the legacy automakers.

I wonder who this is, really. Toyota was producing and selling BEV RAVs in like, 2012. Nissan has been selling the Leaf regularly for almost a decade. Audi for a couple of years. BMW for over 7 years now, Buick for two years. BYD for 8 years. Chery. Chevy. Honda Hyundai Jaguar Kia Lada Lotus Mazda Mitsubishi for a decade  Nissan Opel  Peugeot   Porsche  Renault Skoda Tesla    etc. And VW since 2013.

So.

For everyone who thinks Tesla and VW have been leading some kind of revolution and changing a paradigm, there you go. There is effectively, no "legacy laggard" in this narrative. Except apparently Ford. Many different companies have been plugging away and finding ways to establish a niche and find a market. Some have entered and left the market a couple of times. VW is not getting a "head start" here. VW got its head start five years before dieselgate. It was so excited about BEVs then that it bet the mortgage on diesel to win.

If anything, the "excitement" has come from legislation more or less forcing huge markets to adopt BEVs whether they like it or not. VW now has a good product. A great price. And a captive market. But people have shown over and over, with many companies, that they don't like EVs. That might change. But by and large, it is not because companies have not tried. It is because people do not buy their cars.


Tesla quality sucks regardless of what the rabid bros will scream in your face.  The Model Y is the most recent with a poor design of the rear hatch as well as the typical panel gap issues.
 
2020-11-30 7:27:52 AM  

DON.MAC: I'm wondering when some countries (like Oz) will start to require A/C in cars.  Road rage increases like crazy on very hot days and A/C does help that a bit.

I could deal with a polo sized car but I use my roof rack way too much bringing stuff home from the big box home improvement store.  For $20k, I don't expect them to waste money on the roof rack mounting holes and any roof rack would screw up the aerodynamics so bad it might give it a 20 minute range.


Do they still sell cars in Oz without A/C?  I didn't think any were even offered in the U.S., but it looks like Jeep still does, as well as the Nissan Frontier stripped down work trucks.  Other than that, it's standard.  I know it's still common enough in Europe due to the very mild climate, but Australia?
 
2020-11-30 7:30:51 AM  

Big Dave: VW lied to us


They have all lied to us.

Rolling over, spontaneously combusting, doors falling off, bad airbags et etc.

<Insert Fight Club reference>
 
2020-11-30 7:39:17 AM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: 2fardownthread: neaorin: Big Dave: VW lied to us

Ironically dieselgate might have been VW's saving grace. With no fossil fuels "efficiency" reputation to protect they went all in on electric, and now have a 2 years lead on the bulk of the legacy automakers.

I wonder who this is, really. Toyota was producing and selling BEV RAVs in like, 2012. Nissan has been selling the Leaf regularly for almost a decade. Audi for a couple of years. BMW for over 7 years now, Buick for two years. BYD for 8 years. Chery. Chevy. Honda Hyundai Jaguar Kia Lada Lotus Mazda Mitsubishi for a decade  Nissan Opel  Peugeot   Porsche  Renault Skoda Tesla    etc. And VW since 2013.

So.

For everyone who thinks Tesla and VW have been leading some kind of revolution and changing a paradigm, there you go. There is effectively, no "legacy laggard" in this narrative. Except apparently Ford. Many different companies have been plugging away and finding ways to establish a niche and find a market. Some have entered and left the market a couple of times. VW is not getting a "head start" here. VW got its head start five years before dieselgate. It was so excited about BEVs then that it bet the mortgage on diesel to win.

If anything, the "excitement" has come from legislation more or less forcing huge markets to adopt BEVs whether they like it or not. VW now has a good product. A great price. And a captive market. But people have shown over and over, with many companies, that they don't like EVs. That might change. But by and large, it is not because companies have not tried. It is because people do not buy their cars.

Tesla quality sucks regardless of what the rabid bros will scream in your face.  The Model Y is the most recent with a poor design of the rear hatch as well as the typical panel gap issues.


I don't think anyone denies Tesla's QC issues. People say it doesn't matter. They're easily the best EVs on the market right now. If you want an electric car there are very few choices at a reasonable price. Hyundais are good, but good luck getting your hands on one. Bolt? Only $1K cheaper than Model 3 and they say there will never be a RHD version. I don't care about fit and finish as much as I care about having an electric drivetrain and good infotainment. That Tesla's are more efficient than just about anything else on the road (the 50kWh Model 3 gets range close to the 62kWh leaf, for instance) is just an added bonus. I'm excited about the VW id.4, but who knows when it will be available in my country. Probably never.

Obvious stuff like the roof blowing off of Model Y is a (huge) concern, but that problem will be solved when they start coming out of the Shanghai and Berlin factories. Americans have zero work ethic and don't care about really making something well. The Chinese Model 3 is getting great reviews and they're starting to ship it to Europe where buyers are more conscious of fit and finish. That shows that there are problems with the culture at Fremont and not necessarily with the vehicle design or manufacturing techniques.
 
2020-11-30 7:42:59 AM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: 2fardownthread: neaorin: Big Dave: VW lied to us

Ironically dieselgate might have been VW's saving grace. With no fossil fuels "efficiency" reputation to protect they went all in on electric, and now have a 2 years lead on the bulk of the legacy automakers.

I wonder who this is, really. Toyota was producing and selling BEV RAVs in like, 2012. Nissan has been selling the Leaf regularly for almost a decade. Audi for a couple of years. BMW for over 7 years now, Buick for two years. BYD for 8 years. Chery. Chevy. Honda Hyundai Jaguar Kia Lada Lotus Mazda Mitsubishi for a decade  Nissan Opel  Peugeot   Porsche  Renault Skoda Tesla    etc. And VW since 2013.

So.

For everyone who thinks Tesla and VW have been leading some kind of revolution and changing a paradigm, there you go. There is effectively, no "legacy laggard" in this narrative. Except apparently Ford. Many different companies have been plugging away and finding ways to establish a niche and find a market. Some have entered and left the market a couple of times. VW is not getting a "head start" here. VW got its head start five years before dieselgate. It was so excited about BEVs then that it bet the mortgage on diesel to win.

If anything, the "excitement" has come from legislation more or less forcing huge markets to adopt BEVs whether they like it or not. VW now has a good product. A great price. And a captive market. But people have shown over and over, with many companies, that they don't like EVs. That might change. But by and large, it is not because companies have not tried. It is because people do not buy their cars.

Tesla quality sucks regardless of what the rabid bros will scream in your face.  The Model Y is the most recent with a poor design of the rear hatch as well as the typical panel gap issues.


I watched a video this weekend on a tesla battery replacement and I'm not too confident after seeing how much caulk they put on it to make it waterproof
 
2020-11-30 7:47:07 AM  

2fardownthread: But by and large, it is not because companies have not tried. It is because people do not buy their cars.


Wrong as usual. You're as reliable as a Toyota.

EVs haven't done well because companies haven't tried. They're usually half-assed compliance cars, built on ICE platforms or cut costs in critical areas like battery cooling. Then a little American company comes along making EVs that are world-renowned for poor fit and finish and yet... look at that. Competing with the big digs in Europe. How do you explain that one away?

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-30 7:57:51 AM  
But how much fahrvergnugen will it have?
 
2020-11-30 7:58:48 AM  

zimmerit: Visual Howlaround Title Sequence: nyseattitude: This bad boy goes into production in 2022

[Fark user image 850x637]

[Fark user image 800x533]
[Fark user image 850x425]
^^^^^^^ Check out the pedals, pause and play lol

Too large for my lifestyle but I have to admit it is cool af.

Volkswagen is rapidly upending my idea of the most awesome all-time automakers list.

1. Citroen
2. Alfa Romeo
3. Mercury
4. Jaguar
5. Volkswagen
6. MINI

LOL. Not sure if serious.
[Fark user image 480x360]


100 percent serious.
 
2020-11-30 8:04:06 AM  

Likwit: I don't think anyone denies Tesla's QC issues. People say it doesn't matter. They're easily the best EVs on the market right now. If you want an electric car there are very few choices at a reasonable price. Hyundais are good, but good luck getting your hands on one. Bolt? Only $1K cheaper than Model 3 and they say there will never be a RHD version. I don't care about fit and finish as much as I care about having an electric drivetrain and good infotainment. That Tesla's are more efficient than just about anything else on the road (the 50kWh Model 3 gets range close to the 62kWh leaf, for instance) is just an added bonus. I'm excited about the VW id.4, but who knows when it will be available in my country. Probably never.

Obvious stuff like the roof blowing off of Model Y is a (huge) concern, but that problem will be solved when they start coming out of the Shanghai and Berlin factories. Americans have zero work ethic and don't care about really making something well. The Chinese Model 3 is getting great reviews and they're starting to ship it to Europe where buyers are more conscious of fit and finish. That shows that there are problems with the culture at Fremont and not necessarily with the vehicle design or manufacturing techniques.



FARK that garbage. American corporate management doesn't have a work ethic. Subaru's Indiana facility and Toyota and Honda's American facilities make cars with no major panel gaps and roofs that don't fly off moments after a new car leave the factory. And when NUMMI was moved from GM to under Toyota's control, it also had quality assembly. Then it was sold to an American company, Tesla, and suddenly roofs aren't attached to vehicles and pieces of wood and zip ties from home depot hold the cars together underneath the discordantly attached panels.
 
2020-11-30 8:08:58 AM  

Heliodorus: Likwit: I don't think anyone denies Tesla's QC issues. People say it doesn't matter. They're easily the best EVs on the market right now. If you want an electric car there are very few choices at a reasonable price. Hyundais are good, but good luck getting your hands on one. Bolt? Only $1K cheaper than Model 3 and they say there will never be a RHD version. I don't care about fit and finish as much as I care about having an electric drivetrain and good infotainment. That Tesla's are more efficient than just about anything else on the road (the 50kWh Model 3 gets range close to the 62kWh leaf, for instance) is just an added bonus. I'm excited about the VW id.4, but who knows when it will be available in my country. Probably never.

Obvious stuff like the roof blowing off of Model Y is a (huge) concern, but that problem will be solved when they start coming out of the Shanghai and Berlin factories. Americans have zero work ethic and don't care about really making something well. The Chinese Model 3 is getting great reviews and they're starting to ship it to Europe where buyers are more conscious of fit and finish. That shows that there are problems with the culture at Fremont and not necessarily with the vehicle design or manufacturing techniques.


FARK that garbage. American corporate management doesn't have a work ethic. Subaru's Indiana facility and Toyota and Honda's American facilities make cars with no major panel gaps and roofs that don't fly off moments after a new car leave the factory. And when NUMMI was moved from GM to under Toyota's control, it also had quality assembly. Then it was sold to an American company, Tesla, and suddenly roofs aren't attached to vehicles and pieces of wood and zip ties from home depot hold the cars together underneath the discordantly attached panels.


Still don't care. The second Model Y is available to reserve in RHD, I'm pulling the trigger.
 
2020-11-30 8:11:15 AM  

Likwit: Heliodorus: Likwit: I don't think anyone denies Tesla's QC issues. People say it doesn't matter. They're easily the best EVs on the market right now. If you want an electric car there are very few choices at a reasonable price. Hyundais are good, but good luck getting your hands on one. Bolt? Only $1K cheaper than Model 3 and they say there will never be a RHD version. I don't care about fit and finish as much as I care about having an electric drivetrain and good infotainment. That Tesla's are more efficient than just about anything else on the road (the 50kWh Model 3 gets range close to the 62kWh leaf, for instance) is just an added bonus. I'm excited about the VW id.4, but who knows when it will be available in my country. Probably never.

Obvious stuff like the roof blowing off of Model Y is a (huge) concern, but that problem will be solved when they start coming out of the Shanghai and Berlin factories. Americans have zero work ethic and don't care about really making something well. The Chinese Model 3 is getting great reviews and they're starting to ship it to Europe where buyers are more conscious of fit and finish. That shows that there are problems with the culture at Fremont and not necessarily with the vehicle design or manufacturing techniques.


FARK that garbage. American corporate management doesn't have a work ethic. Subaru's Indiana facility and Toyota and Honda's American facilities make cars with no major panel gaps and roofs that don't fly off moments after a new car leave the factory. And when NUMMI was moved from GM to under Toyota's control, it also had quality assembly. Then it was sold to an American company, Tesla, and suddenly roofs aren't attached to vehicles and pieces of wood and zip ties from home depot hold the cars together underneath the discordantly attached panels.

Still don't care. The second Model Y is available to reserve in RHD, I'm pulling the trigger.


Why are you under the impression that I care about what you do?
 
2020-11-30 8:13:39 AM  

Heliodorus: Likwit: Heliodorus: Likwit: I don't think anyone denies Tesla's QC issues. People say it doesn't matter. They're easily the best EVs on the market right now. If you want an electric car there are very few choices at a reasonable price. Hyundais are good, but good luck getting your hands on one. Bolt? Only $1K cheaper than Model 3 and they say there will never be a RHD version. I don't care about fit and finish as much as I care about having an electric drivetrain and good infotainment. That Tesla's are more efficient than just about anything else on the road (the 50kWh Model 3 gets range close to the 62kWh leaf, for instance) is just an added bonus. I'm excited about the VW id.4, but who knows when it will be available in my country. Probably never.

Obvious stuff like the roof blowing off of Model Y is a (huge) concern, but that problem will be solved when they start coming out of the Shanghai and Berlin factories. Americans have zero work ethic and don't care about really making something well. The Chinese Model 3 is getting great reviews and they're starting to ship it to Europe where buyers are more conscious of fit and finish. That shows that there are problems with the culture at Fremont and not necessarily with the vehicle design or manufacturing techniques.


FARK that garbage. American corporate management doesn't have a work ethic. Subaru's Indiana facility and Toyota and Honda's American facilities make cars with no major panel gaps and roofs that don't fly off moments after a new car leave the factory. And when NUMMI was moved from GM to under Toyota's control, it also had quality assembly. Then it was sold to an American company, Tesla, and suddenly roofs aren't attached to vehicles and pieces of wood and zip ties from home depot hold the cars together underneath the discordantly attached panels.

Still don't care. The second Model Y is available to reserve in RHD, I'm pulling the trigger.

Why are you under the impression that I care about what you do?


Why are you under the impression that I care if you care?

Fark's Irrational EV Haters are always good for a laugh. Hopefully Gish Gallop makes another appearance in this thread. I want to tease him about some recent EV news.
 
2020-11-30 8:17:24 AM  

pjbreeze: My VW bugs heaters just managed to burn your ankles, the defroster was manual (do not forget your gloves) and you could take the whole car apart with a 13mm wrench.  I loved those cars.


59 Beetle was my first car. Bought it for $150, sold it for the same, after a couple of years wrenching on it. I think I bought 2 engines. That car was worth the money.  I learned an awful lot.

Also: heat is either on or off. Choose wisely, because it takes a trip under the car with a can of penetrating oil to change the setting :-)

No gas gauge. Reserve tank lever on the firewall.
 
2020-11-30 8:19:23 AM  

Big Dave: VW lied to us


What?  They do, too, float.
 
2020-11-30 8:20:40 AM  

DON.MAC: pjbreeze: My VW bugs heaters just managed to burn your ankles, the defroster was manual (do not forget your gloves) and you could take the whole car apart with a 13mm wrench.  I loved those cars.

Later VW would use 11mm wrench for things that you needed to take special care of.  Like the clutch cable into the transmission was the odd size because if you didn't clean the dirt away, you would knock it all into the transmission so don't do that.  There were more on metal bracket that had a strong spring which was "these are not the bolts you are looking for"


Everything else was 10mm
 
2020-11-30 8:37:09 AM  

Chabash: 2fardownthread: neaorin: Big Dave: VW lied to us

Ironically dieselgate might have been VW's saving grace. With no fossil fuels "efficiency" reputation to protect they went all in on electric, and now have a 2 years lead on the bulk of the legacy automakers.

I wonder who this is, really. Toyota was producing and selling BEV RAVs in like, 2012. Nissan has been selling the Leaf regularly for almost a decade. Audi for a couple of years. BMW for over 7 years now, Buick for two years. BYD for 8 years. Chery. Chevy. Honda Hyundai Jaguar Kia Lada Lotus Mazda Mitsubishi for a decade  Nissan Opel  Peugeot   Porsche  Renault Skoda Tesla    etc. And VW since 2013.

So.

For everyone who thinks Tesla and VW have been leading some kind of revolution and changing a paradigm, there you go. There is effectively, no "legacy laggard" in this narrative. Except apparently Ford. Many different companies have been plugging away and finding ways to establish a niche and find a market. Some have entered and left the market a couple of times. VW is not getting a "head start" here. VW got its head start five years before dieselgate. It was so excited about BEVs then that it bet the mortgage on diesel to win.

If anything, the "excitement" has come from legislation more or less forcing huge markets to adopt BEVs whether they like it or not. VW now has a good product. A great price. And a captive market. But people have shown over and over, with many companies, that they don't like EVs. That might change. But by and large, it is not because companies have not tried. It is because people do not buy their cars.

When my wife was looking for a replacement for her 04 golf, she wanted an e golf. We couldn't find one anywhere. Clearly, people are buying them.


The EGolf is a compliance car, only available in the few states that require automakers to offer at least one zero emissions vehicle.  You can't find one because there just aren't very many built.
 
2020-11-30 8:40:31 AM  

DON.MAC: I'm wondering when some countries (like Oz) will start to require A/C in cars.


I'm surprised the market hasn't already spoken.

I bought a 2009 Hyundai Accent and A/C was a $1,000 option. The last vehicle I noticed in the USA where A/C was optional was the cheapest Jeep Renegade (stick shift, FWD). Now, the absolute cheapest car available (Mitsubishi Mirage) has automatic climate control with A/C.
 
2020-11-30 8:43:37 AM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: Tesla quality sucks regardless of what the rabid bros will scream in your face.  The Model Y is the most recent with a poor design of the rear hatch as well as the typical panel gap issues.


Sure.  But what Tesla brought to the game is the Super Charger network, where you can realistically drive cross country in your electric car that you'd actually want to drive across country vs having an overpriced golf cart that can go 40 to 60 miles on a good day on a full charge so long as you aren't using your AC or headlights.

Add partial self driving, a dealer network that isn't a bunch of random sleaze bags, and a legal department which allowed 'Ludicrous Mode' to actually be a menu option and people buy them.

True, the build quality sucks, God help you if you get in an accident and need body parts, and they are sketchy about randomly turning off features that they don't think you own.
 
2020-11-30 9:50:12 AM  

Izunbacol: DON.MAC: I'm wondering when some countries (like Oz) will start to require A/C in cars.  Road rage increases like crazy on very hot days and A/C does help that a bit.

I could deal with a polo sized car but I use my roof rack way too much bringing stuff home from the big box home improvement store.  For $20k, I don't expect them to waste money on the roof rack mounting holes and any roof rack would screw up the aerodynamics so bad it might give it a 20 minute range.

Do they still sell cars in Oz without A/C?  I didn't think any were even offered in the U.S., but it looks like Jeep still does, as well as the Nissan Frontier stripped down work trucks.  Other than that, it's standard.  I know it's still common enough in Europe due to the very mild climate, but Australia?


There are a few but they tend to be car brands you haven't heard of and generally sold to recent immigrants who don't know cars need an A/C here. You might find it as an listed option on the lowest end of the low end global companies but they won't have a single car without it so it won't matter.  There was something about an offset crash test where the test car didn't have A/C which they didn't sell any in the configuration so they had to retest the car.  I expect that was mostly to show the car manufacture who was boss.
 
2020-11-30 10:07:04 AM  

2fardownthread: To give 150 mile range to this thing, offhand I would say they will need a 30--35 kWh battery in it, which is more or less what a Leaf has. At 100V, that will take about 6--8 hours to charge fully, is my guess.

The thing is, that will be plenty. And what excites me about what VW appears to be doing is that they are finally concentrating on producing a GREEN car. A battery vehicle, in my opinion, is a more or less urban/suburban vehicle which moves ideally at slow speeds for short distances.


I expect a standard European 220V at 10 amp standard outlet changes some of those assumptions.  Most European codes will allow swapping dual (or multiple) power sockets for a single at 16 or 20 amps. The UK systems can often be cheaply upgraded to even more current.  It would cost me about $500 to get an 32 amp 240V single phase line installed in my garage or for any one of 3 of the parking spaces at work.  A bit more for 80 amp 3 phase at work but I would be limited to single phase 63A at home.
 
2020-11-30 10:28:18 AM  

2fardownthread: The Leaf fell short because people (and probably Nissan) had overly high expectations and were disappointed. A TRS-80 or SInclair of BEVs. Tesla vehicles fall short because they are way overspec and way overpriced to really lead a movement beyond snob appeal. The early MAC desktops and NEXT computers. What VW is doing here is to create an IBM clone for our era: something cheap and fun that everyone can use and adapt to their lifestyle.


Giga Berlin and Giga Shanghai are both designing compact World cars. With Tesla set to cut battery costs in half in three years, $20-25k is quite possible.

The more models from more manufacturers the better IMHO.
 
2020-11-30 10:56:27 AM  
I would consider buying an electric Saab NEVS 93 if they actually sold them and they were at a reasonable price.
 
2020-11-30 11:07:25 AM  
QFarker:

The EGolf is a compliance car, only available in the few states that require automakers to offer at least one zero emissions vehicle.  You can't find one because there just aren't very many built.

Also, the few people that get them are generally not impressed by its range in practice. It is one of those EVs that are an ICE platform with some EV-technology bolted on.
 
2020-11-30 11:11:06 AM  

The wonderful travels of a turd: QFarker:

The EGolf is a compliance car, only available in the few states that require automakers to offer at least one zero emissions vehicle.  You can't find one because there just aren't very many built.

Also, the few people that get them are generally not impressed by its range in practice. It is one of those EVs that are an ICE platform with some EV-technology bolted on.


If you are looking for a hatchback EV, used Chevy Bolts are surprisingly affordable, and the Premium trim is nicely equipped. Granted, it's not nearly as nice to look at as a Golf,  but it has good range and it's supposedly pretty fun to drive.
 
2020-11-30 12:38:54 PM  

Mad_Radhu: The wonderful travels of a turd: QFarker:

The EGolf is a compliance car, only available in the few states that require automakers to offer at least one zero emissions vehicle.  You can't find one because there just aren't very many built.

Also, the few people that get them are generally not impressed by its range in practice. It is one of those EVs that are an ICE platform with some EV-technology bolted on.

If you are looking for a hatchback EV, used Chevy Bolts are surprisingly affordable, and the Premium trim is nicely equipped. Granted, it's not nearly as nice to look at as a Golf,  but it has good range and it's supposedly pretty fun to drive.


I can't remember where I read a review where someone did a straight across comparison of the Model 3 and the Bolt.  The Bolt came out on top for the best value for the dollar.  Unlike (any) Tesla, the Bolt has excellent fit and finish quality, plus I don't think I've ever read about issues with the drive units (can't say that for ANY model Tesla).  The Bolt also beat the Model 3 for longer range when first released.  The Tesla fanbois in this thread are a riot.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- Tesla is a company where a bunch of college bros who think they're smarter than everyone else decided they could produce electric vehicles.  Great idea, but horrific execution.

I have a 2006 Mazda 3 hatchback which I have told people "from my cold, dead hands".  I would really like to have an electric vehicle but am not buying new.  What's on the use market doesn't appeal insofar as reliability except for these 2014 Chevrolet Spark EV.  I've watched some reviews of them on YouTube.  Reliable, damn near bulletproof, and GOBS of torque off the line.  They're offered in my area by Carvana for under $9k with up for $40k on the clock.  I keep wrestling with getting one as my little grocery getter for my every two week trip to town.

I would love the new Honda EV.  Sadly, they're only going to Europe.
th.bing.comView Full Size
 
2020-11-30 1:09:47 PM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: Mad_Radhu: The wonderful travels of a turd: QFarker:

The EGolf is a compliance car, only available in the few states that require automakers to offer at least one zero emissions vehicle.  You can't find one because there just aren't very many built.

Also, the few people that get them are generally not impressed by its range in practice. It is one of those EVs that are an ICE platform with some EV-technology bolted on.

If you are looking for a hatchback EV, used Chevy Bolts are surprisingly affordable, and the Premium trim is nicely equipped. Granted, it's not nearly as nice to look at as a Golf,  but it has good range and it's supposedly pretty fun to drive.

I can't remember where I read a review where someone did a straight across comparison of the Model 3 and the Bolt.  The Bolt came out on top for the best value for the dollar.  Unlike (any) Tesla, the Bolt has excellent fit and finish quality, plus I don't think I've ever read about issues with the drive units (can't say that for ANY model Tesla).  The Bolt also beat the Model 3 for longer range when first released.  The Tesla fanbois in this thread are a riot.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- Tesla is a company where a bunch of college bros who think they're smarter than everyone else decided they could produce electric vehicles.  Great idea, but horrific execution.

I have a 2006 Mazda 3 hatchback which I have told people "from my cold, dead hands".  I would really like to have an electric vehicle but am not buying new.  What's on the use market doesn't appeal insofar as reliability except for these 2014 Chevrolet Spark EV.  I've watched some reviews of them on YouTube.  Reliable, damn near bulletproof, and GOBS of torque off the line.  They're offered in my area by Carvana for under $9k with up for $40k on the clock.  I keep wrestling with getting one as my little grocery getter for my every two week trip to town.

I would love the new Honda EV.  Sadly, they're only going to Europe.
[th.bing.com image 474x316]


Have you sat in a Bolt?

Crappy cheap Chevy interior. Even the Chinese made Chevy Aveo had a nicer interior.
 
2020-11-30 1:19:10 PM  

nyseattitude: This bad boy goes into production in 2022


I'll believe it when I see it. VW has been promising a new bus for like every year now for the past decade.
 
2020-11-30 1:26:25 PM  
If there's one thing VW knows, it's automotive electrical systems.

From the days of the back seat springs shorting the battery and causing fires in the Type I, to my neighbor's Jetta that automatically opens the sunroof for him when it rains, electrical reliability has been the hallmark of Volkswagen. I see no concerns with VW making a car that's all-electric.
 
2020-11-30 2:55:15 PM  

2fardownthread: neaorin: Big Dave: VW lied to us

Ironically dieselgate might have been VW's saving grace. With no fossil fuels "efficiency" reputation to protect they went all in on electric, and now have a 2 years lead on the bulk of the legacy automakers.

I wonder who this is, really. Toyota was producing and selling BEV RAVs in like, 2012. Nissan has been selling the Leaf regularly for almost a decade. Audi for a couple of years. BMW for over 7 years now, Buick for two years. BYD for 8 years. Chery. Chevy. Honda Hyundai Jaguar Kia Lada Lotus Mazda Mitsubishi for a decade  Nissan Opel  Peugeot   Porsche  Renault Skoda Tesla    etc. And VW since 2013.


Just because you knew how to take an ICE platform and replace the engine with an electrical motor doesn't mean you had this BEV thing figured out. Just ask BMW why they decided to rethink their entire approach and develop a new platform for the iX3. Or why VW developed their MEB platform - which Audi and Skoda also use, since they're part of the VW group - instead of trying to give any sort of reasonable range to the e-Golf.

Nothing in the current legacy automakers' EV lineups (Tesla, Polestar, NIO etc aren't legacy) really approaches the ID.3 and ID.4 current price / range / size offering. Everything else is either a low-range city car, or an expensive performance monster like the Taycan.

They'll get there eventually, but they'll have to put in the work.
 
2020-11-30 3:47:55 PM  
I wish VW would beef up their engines.  I looked at a Passat R-line...174hp.  That...that's it?  It's the same as the base model. So, it's an extra 6 grand for bigger tires and more plastic.
 
2020-11-30 4:13:41 PM  

Chief Superintendent Lookout: Mad_Radhu: The wonderful travels of a turd: QFarker:

The EGolf is a compliance car, only available in the few states that require automakers to offer at least one zero emissions vehicle.  You can't find one because there just aren't very many built.

Also, the few people that get them are generally not impressed by its range in practice. It is one of those EVs that are an ICE platform with some EV-technology bolted on.

If you are looking for a hatchback EV, used Chevy Bolts are surprisingly affordable, and the Premium trim is nicely equipped. Granted, it's not nearly as nice to look at as a Golf,  but it has good range and it's supposedly pretty fun to drive.

I can't remember where I read a review where someone did a straight across comparison of the Model 3 and the Bolt.  The Bolt came out on top for the best value for the dollar.  Unlike (any) Tesla, the Bolt has excellent fit and finish quality, plus I don't think I've ever read about issues with the drive units (can't say that for ANY model Tesla).  The Bolt also beat the Model 3 for longer range when first released.  The Tesla fanbois in this thread are a riot.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- Tesla is a company where a bunch of college bros who think they're smarter than everyone else decided they could produce electric vehicles.  Great idea, but horrific execution.

I have a 2006 Mazda 3 hatchback which I have told people "from my cold, dead hands".  I would really like to have an electric vehicle but am not buying new.  What's on the use market doesn't appeal insofar as reliability except for these 2014 Chevrolet Spark EV.  I've watched some reviews of them on YouTube.  Reliable, damn near bulletproof, and GOBS of torque off the line.  They're offered in my area by Carvana for under $9k with up for $40k on the clock.  I keep wrestling with getting one as my little grocery getter for my every two week trip to town.

I would love the new Honda EV.  Sadly, they're only going to Europe.
[th.bing.com image 474x316]


I call BS on that. The Bolt is a great car, but the interior is a Chevy interior. I've sat in both and the Model 3 blows the Chevy away. If you care more about panel gaps, then absolutely go for the Bolt. It seems really silly to choose a car based on that, and particularly an EV, but you do you.

As for the range, I'm not sure how it could "beat the Model 3 in range" considering the Model 3 has better efficiency per kWh. The Bolt sits between the standard and long range Model 3 for battery size, so I imagine they compared it to the standard.
 
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