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(Washington Post)   After emerging from tryptophan coma, WaPo ready to get back to being concerned   (washingtonpost.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Democratic Party, United States Senate, Nancy Pelosi, Party leaders of the United States Senate, 111th United States Congress, Biden's team, challenge liberals face, wake of many congressional Republicans  
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1540 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Nov 2020 at 11:53 PM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-11-29 11:58:02 PM  
💩

/testing...
 
2020-11-30 12:00:07 AM  
YAY AOC!  😊
 
2020-11-30 12:02:29 AM  
If you have policies you want to champion for the people, moderates and centrists, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. Show us how you save the world.
 
2020-11-30 12:06:57 AM  
It's easy to criticize, and it's lazy journalism.
 
2020-11-30 12:09:31 AM  
63% of Americans believe the Government has a responsibility to provide access to healthcare. It doesn't matter what progressives do or don't do. The American people have spoken and made it clear they're in favor of progressive policies. The onus is on the Democratic Party to either listen to the American people or lose the mid-terms and maybe 2024 as well.
 
2020-11-30 12:12:02 AM  
The progressives need a voice in how to campaign as much as anything about policies or platforms.

Stacey Abrams deserves a statue. AOC has good ideas on how to run campaigns beyond paying for a lot of TV ads. Listen to them.
 
2020-11-30 12:13:01 AM  
What lazy journalism.

Every Dem candidate that endorsed Medicare for all, green new deal, ie progressive policies, WON.

CENTRIST DEMS LOST THEIR SEATS.

Turns out, if the choice is R-light or R, people will pick R
 
2020-11-30 12:13:06 AM  
I really hate the way we as Americans misuse the word liberal.
 
2020-11-30 12:13:15 AM  

austerity101: If you have policies you want to champion for the people, moderates and centrists, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. Show us how you save the world.


We don't want to 'save the world'. We want to win elections.

Not that difficult of a concept for some of us, at least.
 
2020-11-30 12:15:00 AM  

Shaggy_C: austerity101: If you have policies you want to champion for the people, moderates and centrists, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. Show us how you save the world.

We don't want to 'save the world'. We want to win elections.

Not that difficult of a concept for some of us, at least.


"We don't want to save the world we want to win elections"

That, sums up the way centrists view things and why more and more people of all stripes are heading to the putter edges left or right

Because this is just all a game to centrists. They don't actually farking care.
 
2020-11-30 12:18:21 AM  
"I don't know how, the day after the election, people can start pointing fingers at progressives for somehow ruining things when in fact we never would have won the presidential election if we hadn't turned out people," said Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus

I thought the Democratic Party's chronic need for self-immolation and it's habit of ostracizing one their most reliable voting blocks was a pretty obvious reason for why they'd start attacking American liberals immediately after their grassroots efforts put Biden in the White House.
 
2020-11-30 12:19:28 AM  

Shaggy_C: austerity101: If you have policies you want to champion for the people, moderates and centrists, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. Show us how you save the world.

We don't want to 'save the world'. We want to win elections.

Not that difficult of a concept for some of us, at least.


"The older members really cling to the idea that things are going to go 'back to normal' ' after Trump, Ocasio-Cortez told me. 'For us, it's never been normal, and before that the bipartisanship was s-ty anyway and gave us the War on Drugs, DOMA' - the Defense of Marriage Act, which barred federal recognition or benefits for same-sex couples - 'and stripping the leg[islative] branch of everything.'

[...]

Ocasio-Cortez said she has seen how fear shapes senior members of her caucus and their approach to politics. 'When it comes to defending why we don't [...] push visionary legislation, I hear the line so frequently from senior members, 'I want to win,'' she said. 'But what they mean by that is, 'I only want to introduce bills that have a 100 percent chance of passing almost unanimously.' But for new members, what's important isn't just winning but fighting. I don't care about losing in the short term, because we know we're fighting for the long term.'"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p​o​steverything/wp/2019/07/05/feature/hau​nted-by-the-reagan-era/?utm_term=.3e08​809b81d3&wpisrc=nl_rainbow&wpmm=1&nore​direct=on
 
2020-11-30 12:19:43 AM  

The Irresponsible Captain: It's easy to criticize, and it's lazy journalism.


It's easy to just sit there and criticize the plans of politicians. In fact, that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, and finding fault with everything they do.

/ With apologies to Jack Handy
 
2020-11-30 12:19:54 AM  
Shaggy_C:

We don't want to 'save the world'. We want to win elections.

How very Republican if you.
 
2020-11-30 12:21:13 AM  

TannerWorke: Shaggy_C: austerity101: If you have policies you want to champion for the people, moderates and centrists, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. Show us how you save the world.

We don't want to 'save the world'. We want to win elections.

Not that difficult of a concept for some of us, at least.

"We don't want to save the world we want to win elections"

That, sums up the way centrists view things and why more and more people of all stripes are heading to the putter edges left or right

Because this is just all a game to centrists. They don't actually farking care.


Better than losing all the time. There is no prize for second place.

Tell me, how well have those progressive candidates done in the primary?

Bernie Sanders Just Got Boomered To beat Joe Biden, he needs record numbers of young voters. They haven't been showing up.

pbs.twimg.comView Full Size
 
2020-11-30 12:22:51 AM  
If they want to get any of their policies enacted, they need to start focusing on messaging. An idea like "defund the police" was way too easy for rapepublicans to win the messaging on.

Some of it they cannot do much about like Climate Change. The Green New Deal was easy for rapepublicans to win the messaging on because if you look at how stupid their base is, they just point out that The New Deal helped everyone including "those people". Rapepublicans have won the messaging on pro-life (anti-choice)...

If they start there and can convince the more moderate democrats then they are on the right path. I am sure most democrats are okay with being in power instead of the Reich-wing terrorists in the GOP, but you'll have to convince people like Biden that these ideas can work. (not sure why when Bernie pointed out that like every democrat running on the "evul librual left" platform won their races except for, I believe, one.
 
2020-11-30 12:23:14 AM  

Wanderlusting: TannerWorke: Shaggy_C: austerity101: If you have policies you want to champion for the people, moderates and centrists, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. Show us how you save the world.

We don't want to 'save the world'. We want to win elections.

Not that difficult of a concept for some of us, at least.

"We don't want to save the world we want to win elections"

That, sums up the way centrists view things and why more and more people of all stripes are heading to the putter edges left or right

Because this is just all a game to centrists. They don't actually farking care.

Better than losing all the time. There is no prize for second place.

Tell me, how well have those progressive candidates done in the primary?

Bernie Sanders Just Got Boomered To beat Joe Biden, he needs record numbers of young voters. They haven't been showing up.

[pbs.twimg.com image 720x619]


Youth voter turnout increased in 2020. It's just that the older IGMFY voter turnout increased, too.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/arc​h​ive/2020/03/stop-blaming-young-voters-​not-turning-out-sanders/608137/
 
2020-11-30 12:23:53 AM  

Bith Set Me Up: "I don't care about losing"


Sounds about right.
 
2020-11-30 12:28:08 AM  

TannerWorke: Every Dem candidate that endorsed Medicare for all, green new deal, ie progressive policies, WON.

CENTRIST DEMS LOST THEIR SEATS.

Turns out, if the choice is R-light or R, people will pick R


Um... gosh, I'm far, far left so I don't like pointing this out, but.  (1), you're forgetting Joe Biden, and (2)... many of the Dems that won had the LIBERTY of running in far-left districts where they could embrace those policies without retribution, while the Democrats that HAD to rebuke those policies and ended up losing were the ones in the most contested, conservative districts whose seats were most likely to be challenged.  There are lots of reasons to advocate for progressive policies and that the whole party should adopt them, but please try to avoid this one statistical fluke that isn't a real data point in our favor-- even AOC trumpets the line and she's usually better about these things.
 
2020-11-30 12:31:01 AM  

Bith Set Me Up: Wanderlusting: TannerWorke: Shaggy_C: austerity101: If you have policies you want to champion for the people, moderates and centrists, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. Show us how you save the world.

We don't want to 'save the world'. We want to win elections.

Not that difficult of a concept for some of us, at least.

"We don't want to save the world we want to win elections"

That, sums up the way centrists view things and why more and more people of all stripes are heading to the putter edges left or right

Because this is just all a game to centrists. They don't actually farking care.

Better than losing all the time. There is no prize for second place.

Tell me, how well have those progressive candidates done in the primary?

Bernie Sanders Just Got Boomered To beat Joe Biden, he needs record numbers of young voters. They haven't been showing up.

[pbs.twimg.com image 720x619]

Youth voter turnout increased in 2020. It's just that the older IGMFY voter turnout increased, too.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/arch​ive/2020/03/stop-blaming-young-voters-​not-turning-out-sanders/608137/


Got it. Older people turned out. Younger people didn't.

"52%-55% of voting-eligible young people, ages 18-29, cast a ballot in the 2020 presidential election."

As compared to the 70%+ of the Boomer generation. Face it. Young people Don't vote. They've ceded the decision making to the adults that show up.

lh3.googleusercontent.comView Full Size
 
2020-11-30 12:32:56 AM  

BlastYoBoots: TannerWorke: Every Dem candidate that endorsed Medicare for all, green new deal, ie progressive policies, WON.

CENTRIST DEMS LOST THEIR SEATS.

Turns out, if the choice is R-light or R, people will pick R

Um... gosh, I'm far, far left so I don't like pointing this out, but.  (1), you're forgetting Joe Biden, and (2)... many of the Dems that won had the LIBERTY of running in far-left districts where they could embrace those policies without retribution, while the Democrats that HAD to rebuke those policies and ended up losing were the ones in the most contested, conservative districts whose seats were most likely to be challenged.  There are lots of reasons to advocate for progressive policies and that the whole party should adopt them, but please try to avoid this one statistical fluke that isn't a real data point in our favor-- even AOC trumpets the line and she's usually better about these things.


Fark user imageView Full Size


https://truthout.org/articles/this-el​e​ction-proved-that-medicare-for-all-is-​a-winning-demand/

Biden won despite opposing progressive policies like Medicare For All and the Green New Deal, not because of it.
 
2020-11-30 12:33:31 AM  
But liberals offer a starkly different take, arguing that their base won Biden the White House - and now, they must deliver on promises to pass climate change legislation and fight economic inequality.

Biden should tell them 'you know what, maybe Trump did win...what say I concede.  Yeah I thought so.'
 
2020-11-30 12:41:04 AM  

TannerWorke: Shaggy_C: austerity101: If you have policies you want to champion for the people, moderates and centrists, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. Show us how you save the world.

We don't want to 'save the world'. We want to win elections.

Not that difficult of a concept for some of us, at least.

"We don't want to save the world we want to win elections"

That, sums up the way centrists view things and why more and more people of all stripes are heading to the putter edges left or right

Because this is just all a game to centrists. They don't actually farking care.


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-30 12:43:35 AM  

Wanderlusting: Bith Set Me Up: Wanderlusting: TannerWorke: Shaggy_C: austerity101: If you have policies you want to champion for the people, moderates and centrists, I'm all ears. Lay it on me. Show us how you save the world.

We don't want to 'save the world'. We want to win elections.

Not that difficult of a concept for some of us, at least.

"We don't want to save the world we want to win elections"

That, sums up the way centrists view things and why more and more people of all stripes are heading to the putter edges left or right

Because this is just all a game to centrists. They don't actually farking care.

Better than losing all the time. There is no prize for second place.

Tell me, how well have those progressive candidates done in the primary?

Bernie Sanders Just Got Boomered To beat Joe Biden, he needs record numbers of young voters. They haven't been showing up.

[pbs.twimg.com image 720x619]

Youth voter turnout increased in 2020. It's just that the older IGMFY voter turnout increased, too.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/arch​ive/2020/03/stop-blaming-young-voters-​not-turning-out-sanders/608137/

Got it. Older people turned out. Younger people didn't.

"52%-55% of voting-eligible young people, ages 18-29, cast a ballot in the 2020 presidential election."

As compared to the 70%+ of the Boomer generation. Face it. Young people Don't vote. They've ceded the decision making to the adults that show up.

[lh3.googleusercontent.com image 480x293]


So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?
 
2020-11-30 12:52:18 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?


As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.
 
2020-11-30 1:02:44 AM  

Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.


Ah, so because you're a nihilistic waste of carbon, you want to see everything else burn.
 
2020-11-30 1:06:44 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.

Ah, so because you're a nihilistic waste of carbon, you want to see everything else burn.


No but I expect it will anyway.  That's why I don't live in the woods.
 
2020-11-30 1:08:56 AM  

Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.


I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.
 
2020-11-30 1:19:13 AM  

twat_waffle: Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.

I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.


For all of our technological advances, Americans are loathe to abandon traditions, especially those that keep oppressed people down and ensure they remain ultra-wealthy and in power.
 
2020-11-30 1:22:10 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: twat_waffle: Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.

I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

For all of our technological advances, Americans are loathe to abandon traditions, especially those that keep oppressed people down and ensure they remain ultra-wealthy and in power.


True, but those account for maybe 5% of the conservative arguments against change that I hear. A good 75% are based in fear.
 
2020-11-30 1:24:39 AM  
FTFA:
"As a candidate, Biden repeatedly expressed confidence that once Trump is out of the picture, Republicans would suddenly be willing to cooperate. "I take McConnell at his word. I understand he said that he will make it clear who he's prepared to support, not support, and that's a negotiation that I'm sure we'll have," Biden said this month, speaking about Cabinet picks.
Many on the left see that as a naive position, particularly in the wake of many congressional Republicans refusing to even acknowledge that Biden won the election, as Trump continues to refuse to concede. They fear such thinking by Biden will result in agreements that will be more favorable to Republicans. And they're cognizant that many campaign promises can go unrealized once the tough realities of governing set in."

This is the heart of the article basically. And a key to how the midterms will turn out during Biden's tenure. Who do you work for? What do you want your party to represent? And most importantly, do you believe your own bullshiat?
 
2020-11-30 1:28:13 AM  

twat_waffle: Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.

I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.


The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

In the end, taxing the rich will never come up with the dollars being discussed, which means that high cost premiums will be a fact of life.

Again, most people LIKE their healthcare, so the onus is on you to prove - inarguably - how the math works and how it will be better for the country.
 
2020-11-30 1:32:22 AM  

Night Train to Wakanda: FTFA:
"As a candidate, Biden repeatedly expressed confidence that once Trump is out of the picture, Republicans would suddenly be willing to cooperate. "I take McConnell at his word. I understand he said that he will make it clear who he's prepared to support, not support, and that's a negotiation that I'm sure we'll have," Biden said this month, speaking about Cabinet picks.
Many on the left see that as a naive position, particularly in the wake of many congressional Republicans refusing to even acknowledge that Biden won the election, as Trump continues to refuse to concede. They fear such thinking by Biden will result in agreements that will be more favorable to Republicans. And they're cognizant that many campaign promises can go unrealized once the tough realities of governing set in."

This is the heart of the article basically. And a key to how the midterms will turn out during Biden's tenure. Who do you work for? What do you want your party to represent? And most importantly, do you believe your own bullshiat?


For someone who spend eight years watching the Republicans constantly block, fight, and attack Obama, Biden doesn't seem to remember any of it.
 
2020-11-30 1:35:04 AM  
I 100% support a public option insurance program. Anything more and you're talking about major upsets to the status quo ... and we all saw how well that went the last time around.

"You can keep your doctor" - Part 2: Electric Boogaloo isn't a great option for anyone.
 
2020-11-30 1:36:06 AM  

Wanderlusting: twat_waffle: Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.

I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

I ...


We could always replace our piece of shiat healthcare system with one that actually works. But wait, that will help black people, brown people, and Democrats, won't it? Nope, better not do it. Coal and oil and gas are going to run out? Who cares, green energy is a pipe dream by naive progressives who want to make cows extinct to save frogs in Antarctica. Unless everything they say they want can be done immediately, cheaply, and in a way that benefits only the old and white and rich, we must oppose them forever.
 
2020-11-30 1:45:37 AM  

Wanderlusting: twat_waffle: Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.

I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

I ...


Account created:2020-09-17 09:19:43 (10 weeks ago)


Okay, whose alt are you?
 
2020-11-30 1:45:48 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Wanderlusting: twat_waffle: Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.

I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

I ...

We could always replace our piece of shiat healthcare system with one that actually works. But wait, that will help black people, brown people, and Democrats, won't it? Nope, better not do it. Coal and oil and gas are going to run out? Who cares, green energy is a pipe dream by naive progressives who want to make cows extinct to save frogs in Antarctica. Unless everything they say they want can be done immediately, cheaply, and in a way that benefits only the old and white and rich, we must oppose them forever.


Our "piece of shiat" healthcare system is the best in the world, so wouldn't be so quick to shiat all over it.

5 of the top 10 Hospitals in the world are American and the Top 3 are American.

What I would like to see is a discussion with these top hospital systems in what they think would be the best path forward. Obviously, they know how to provide the best care in the world, so why not utilize them on designing a new system that works for all?

The head of the Cleveland Clinic makes some good suggestions that don't involve throwing the baby out with the bath water.

https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/​2​017/09/27/its-time-to-focus-on-real-he​althcare-reform/
 
2020-11-30 1:46:27 AM  

Bith Set Me Up: Wanderlusting: twat_waffle: Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.

I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

I ...

Account created:2020-09-17 09:19:43 (10 weeks ago)


Okay, whose alt are you?


Why would an Alt have a paid account? No alt. Long time lurker, new user.
 
2020-11-30 1:47:30 AM  

Wanderlusting: I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

In the end, taxing the rich will never come up with the dollars being discussed, which means that high cost premiums will be a fact of life.

Again, most people LIKE their healthcare, so the onus is on you to prove - inarguably - how the math works and how it will be better for the country.


If you have every citizen paying in to Medicare you're going to see an increase in doctors accepting Medicare because number one, they will have no choice but to retire or accept them, and number two, they will be given higher pay rates than is currently available under the system because they will be given a higher percentage of pay as Medicare won't pay for 300 dollar band-aids.

The Green New Deal will absolutely collapse the energy sector as it sits today because it is supposed to. It diverts every tax break and oil company hand out to retraining an entire work force and is absolutely disruptive because it's farking supposed to be as we get off dirty energy, as we stop letting Chinese government control pricing on solar panels and wind farms. And becomes the new arms race in providing clean or cleaner energy for as cheap as possible. No more fracking and poisoning water tables, upgrading our energy infrastructure based on what we use and how it is distributed is also part of the green new deal which is why fuel cell and electric cars are no longer the future. They are happening now.

Health care will be rationed similarly to how it is now, only instead of protecting corporate bottom lines and for-profit hospitals, with aggrandized costs and stricter controls on price gouging like Rick Scott did charging for services never rendered, it will be going towards providing immediate care. It also doesn't even address the psychological care required to deal with the pressures people are under today. Let alone tomorrow.

And I don't think you understand just how imbalanced the American economy is. For instance:
"a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution - the top 1 percent includes about 1.13 million households earning an average income of $2.1 million.
Raising their total tax burden to, say, 40 percent would generate about $157 billion in revenue the first year. Increasing it to 45 percent brings in a whopping $276 billion. Even taking account of state and local taxes, the average household in this group would still take home at least $1 million a year.
If the tax increase were limited to just the 115,000 households in the top 0.1 percent, with an average income of $9.4 million, a 40 percent tax rate would produce $55 billion in extra revenue in its first year."

A tax hike is not only lucrative to pay for all of this shiat, it's going to become mandatory. And the wealthy sons of biatches are terrified of it because they know it's coming. 50 years of trickle down economics and expanding globalist policies that have benefited them and only them at the expense of the American worker is why it is going to come to a head.
 
2020-11-30 1:51:27 AM  

Bith Set Me Up: Wanderlusting: twat_waffle: Abox: Keizer_Ghidorah: So tell us, why do you old farts not care about the country, the younger generations, and the future? Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter? You see everything as perfect? You fear change and how it might affect you?

As a person who's fast on his way to old farthood I'll play.

Because you're going to die soon so it doesn't matter?
yes

You see everything as perfect?
I see everything as the universe wants it to be.  shiatty.

You fear change and how it might affect you?
yes.  though more resist than fear.  change is part of the shiatty universe so I expect it.

I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

I ...

Account created:2020-09-17 09:19:43 (10 weeks ago)


Okay, whose alt are you?


It's another concern troll account.  Just throw it on the pile and wait for another re-roll.
 
2020-11-30 1:53:29 AM  

Wanderlusting: Our "piece of shiat" healthcare system is the best in the world, so wouldn't be so quick to shiat all over it.

5 of the top 10 Hospitals in the world are American and the Top 3 are American.

What I would like to see is a discussion with these top hospital systems in what they think would be the best path forward. Obviously, they know how to provide the best care in the world, so why not utilize them on designing a new system that works for all?

The head of the Cleveland Clinic makes some good suggestions that don't involve throwing the baby out with the bath water.

https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2​017/09/27/its-time-to-focus-on-real-he​althcare-reform/


America does have a great healthcare system... for rich and famous people. For everybody else, not so much.
 
2020-11-30 1:54:53 AM  

Bith Set Me Up: Wanderlusting: Our "piece of shiat" healthcare system is the best in the world, so wouldn't be so quick to shiat all over it.

5 of the top 10 Hospitals in the world are American and the Top 3 are American.

What I would like to see is a discussion with these top hospital systems in what they think would be the best path forward. Obviously, they know how to provide the best care in the world, so why not utilize them on designing a new system that works for all?

The head of the Cleveland Clinic makes some good suggestions that don't involve throwing the baby out with the bath water.

https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2​017/09/27/its-time-to-focus-on-real-he​althcare-reform/

America does have a great healthcare system... for rich and famous people. For everybody else, not so much.


It's the best in the world. Because they don't have to serve 300 million citizens and only 100 or so million.
 
2020-11-30 1:58:56 AM  

Wanderlusting: Bith Set Me Up: "I don't care about losing"

Sounds about right.


Let me guess: you thought Obama simply said "If you've got a business, you didn't build that!" in 2012?
 
2020-11-30 2:01:58 AM  

Night Train to Wakanda: Wanderlusting: I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

In the end, taxing the rich will never come up with the dollars being discussed, which means that high cost premiums will be a fact of life.

Again, most people LIKE their healthcare, so the onus is on you to prove - inarguably - how the math works and how it will be better for the country.

If you have every citizen paying in to Medicare you're going to see an increase in doctors accepting Medicare because number one, they will have no choice but to retire or accept them, and number two, they will be given higher pay rates than is currently available under the system because they will be given a higher percentage of pay as Medicare won't pay for 300 dollar band-aids.

The Green New Deal will absolutely collapse the energy sector as it sits today because it is supposed to. It diverts every tax break and oil company hand out to retraining an entire work force and is absolutely disruptive because it's farking supposed to be as we get off dirty energy, as we stop letting Chinese government control pricing on solar panels and wind farms. And becomes the new arms race in providing clean or cleaner energy for as cheap as possible. No more fracking and poisoning water tables, upgrading our energy infrastructure based on what we use and how it is distributed is also part of the green new deal which is why fuel cell and electric cars are no longer the future. They are happening now.

Health care will be rationed similarly to how it is now, only instead of protecting corporate bottom lines and for-profit hospitals, with aggrandized costs and stricter controls on price gouging like Rick Scott did charging for services never rendered, it will be going towards providing immediate care. It also doesn't even address the psychological care required to deal with the pressures people are under today. Let alone tomorrow.

And I don't think you understand just how imbalanced the American economy is. For instance:
"a joint project of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution - the top 1 percent includes about 1.13 million households earning an average income of $2.1 million.
Raising their total tax burden to, say, 40 percent would generate about $157 billion in revenue the first year. Increasing it to 45 percent brings in a whopping $276 billion. Even taking account of state and local taxes, the average household in this group would still take home at least $1 million a year.
If the tax increase were limited to just the 115,000 households in the top 0.1 percent, with an average income of $9.4 million, a 40 percent tax rate would produce $55 billion in extra revenue in its first year."

A tax hike is not only lucrative to pay for all of this shiat, it's going to become mandatory. And the wealthy sons of biatches are terrified of it because they know it's coming. 50 years of trickle down economics and expanding globalist policies that have benefited them and only them at the expense of the American worker is why it is going to come to a head.


You are aware that most doctors take on a certain number of Medicare patients based on their private insurance patients.

See, reimbursement rates are so low and payments are so buried in red tape, that many doctors will always preference private insurance. Again, privately insured patients subsidize care for Medicare patients. Many doctors are choosing to opt out of Medicare entirely for a concierge model of service whereby patients pay an annual fee for care and their insurance isn't billed at all. Why? Because, like anything, medicine is a business and if you're unable to cover your costs, you close. No doctor can afford to take only Medicare patients because the reimbursement rates are so low.

Your idea that we're all going to pay less and have better care is based on the idea that the staff will be paid less. You fail to account for the massive deficit in doctors right now and going forward.

As for your tax the rich plan, at 45%, you've only accounted for 5% of the total program costs (approximately $4 trillion a year). Where do you propose we find the other $3.75T (which - incidentally - is the entirety of the current federal budget)?
 
2020-11-30 2:17:59 AM  

Wanderlusting: Our "piece of shiat" healthcare system is the best in the world


Yep, going bankrupt for an abdominal hernia surgery makes us the greatest health care in the world. All those demon socialist communist anarchist countries like Australia and the UK where medical care is free are the most third-world suckiest places ever for it because they're not charging you a thousand dollars a month for insurance and a hundred thousand for any form of medical treatment.
 
2020-11-30 2:18:51 AM  

Wanderlusting: Night Train to Wakanda: Wanderlusting: I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

In the end, taxing the rich will never come up with the dollars being discussed, which means that high cost premiums will be a fact of life.

Again, most people LIKE their healthcare, so the onus is on you to prove - inarguably - how the math works and how it will be better for the country.

If you have every citizen paying in to Medicare you're going to see an increase in doctors accepting Medicare because number one, they will have no choice but to retire or accept them, and number two, they will be given higher pay rates than is currently available under the system because ...


It's hilarious how America can write blank checks to the military to keep blowing up brown people on the other side of the world but there's never any spare money to to anything to help its own citizens.
 
2020-11-30 2:25:51 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Wanderlusting: Night Train to Wakanda: Wanderlusting: I've heard the arguments against the various changes that progressives are pushing for. Most are based in fear. Fear that M4A will lead to a supply crisis in healthcare and higher taxes. Fear that the GND will destroy the energy sector. Fear that a living wage will cause out of control inflation, unemployment, and underemployment. Fear that a robust social safety net will reward laziness and make the economy less productive.

The only other arguments I've heard in opposition to progressive policies are variations of IGMFY and appeals to tradition.

The problem is when you confront progressives with the reality that doctors are dropping Medicare patients already because Medicare rates are so stifling, they're like, "Well, doctors in the UK make less and do the job just fine!".

That doesn't answer the question. M4A is a terrible idea because, one, most people like the insurance they have, and two, the healthcare system is already taxed beyond its limits.

When you bring up the necessary question to how healthcare will be rationed (as ALL universal healthcare programs have rationed care), they just devolve into "Nuh Uh"s and "Unlimited low cost care for all!"

I hate how Progressive policy never is based on reality, but is based on some crazy land where there isn't already an extant demand for MORE doctors, MORE nurses, and MORE positions with HIGHER pay."

In the end, taxing the rich will never come up with the dollars being discussed, which means that high cost premiums will be a fact of life.

Again, most people LIKE their healthcare, so the onus is on you to prove - inarguably - how the math works and how it will be better for the country.

If you have every citizen paying in to Medicare you're going to see an increase in doctors accepting Medicare because number one, they will have no choice but to retire or accept them, and number two, they will be given higher pay rates than is currently available under the system because ...

It's hilarious how America can write blank checks to the military to keep blowing up brown people on the other side of the world but there's never any spare money to to anything to help its own citizens.


I know this is difficult to hear, but scale. We spend 5x as much on healthcare as we do our military. We could cut the military budget to $0 and still only be 20% of the way there.

Nationalizing the healthcare industry would - literally - more than DOUBLE - the total federal budget.

So, take all the taxes you pay today and double them would give you some sense of the scale of these issues. Then add in $1.5 trillion for student loan debt relief and $100 billion a year for universal college, add in another 1/4 to 1/2 a trillion for GND programs, and another $2 trillion for a UBI and you're talking about needing to triple what we pay in taxes just to break even.

I get it. The military is an unarguable money suck. I agree with you, but it's a small fraction of the amount needed to enact the programs the Progressive wing of the party wants to enact.

Then, when you do that, make sure you've accounted for the chaos in foreign markets you're going to have and the dollar shock that would be shortly coming.
 
2020-11-30 2:28:34 AM  

Wanderlusting: Better than losing all the time. There is no prize for second place.

Tell me, how well have those progressive candidates done in the primary?


Tell me, how did your "electable" candidates do in the general?

Of the 88 co-sponsors of HR 676, the Medicare for All bill in the 103rd Congress, 81 ran for another term in Congress. One ran for Governor of Hawaii. 79 of the 81 were re-elected to Congress by large margins. The candidate for Governor also won. Hawaii and Vermont now have Governors who support single payer health care.

The Blue Dog Democrats, like Jason Altmire, who worked in committee to water down the healthcare bill and block the public option lost over half of their seats. 28 of 54 Blue Dogs were defeated. 4th CD Congressman Altmire who worked in committee to gut the health care bill and then voted against it was re-elected by a margin of less than 2%.
 
2020-11-30 3:06:27 AM  

moothemagiccow: Wanderlusting: Better than losing all the time. There is no prize for second place.

Tell me, how well have those progressive candidates done in the primary?

Tell me, how did your "electable" candidates do in the general?

Of the 88 co-sponsors of HR 676, the Medicare for All bill in the 103rd Congress, 81 ran for another term in Congress. One ran for Governor of Hawaii. 79 of the 81 were re-elected to Congress by large margins. The candidate for Governor also won. Hawaii and Vermont now have Governors who support single payer health care.

The Blue Dog Democrats, like Jason Altmire, who worked in committee to water down the healthcare bill and block the public option lost over half of their seats. 28 of 54 Blue Dogs were defeated. 4th CD Congressman Altmire who worked in committee to gut the health care bill and then voted against it was re-elected by a margin of less than 2%.


It's sure easy to be for something when it has no hope in hell of passing: See AOC supporting a $3.5T Covid bill that was DoA.

She might as well been for unicorns and fairy tales.

Again, here in the real world, supporting two bills that will never become law isn't exactly a "win," so much as it is a clear indication of the fantasyland their constituencies are living in.
 
2020-11-30 3:17:50 AM  

Wanderlusting: moothemagiccow: Wanderlusting: Better than losing all the time. There is no prize for second place.

Tell me, how well have those progressive candidates done in the primary?

Tell me, how did your "electable" candidates do in the general?

Of the 88 co-sponsors of HR 676, the Medicare for All bill in the 103rd Congress, 81 ran for another term in Congress. One ran for Governor of Hawaii. 79 of the 81 were re-elected to Congress by large margins. The candidate for Governor also won. Hawaii and Vermont now have Governors who support single payer health care.

The Blue Dog Democrats, like Jason Altmire, who worked in committee to water down the healthcare bill and block the public option lost over half of their seats. 28 of 54 Blue Dogs were defeated. 4th CD Congressman Altmire who worked in committee to gut the health care bill and then voted against it was re-elected by a margin of less than 2%.

It's sure easy to be for something when it has no hope in hell of passing: See AOC supporting a $3.5T Covid bill that was DoA.

She might as well been for unicorns and fairy tales.

Again, here in the real world, supporting two bills that will never become law isn't exactly a "win," so much as it is a clear indication of the fantasyland their constituencies are living in.


Please stop quoting republican think tank numbers as facts.
 
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