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(Science News Magazine)   So it turns out that Goliath may not have been so giant after all. What's next? Jesus didn't actually turn water into wine or ride a dinosaur?   (sciencenews.org) divider line
    More: Obvious, Philistines, David, Goliath, Gath, Aren Maeir, Old Testament, Goliath's home city, ancient Philistine warrior  
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1642 clicks; posted to STEM » on 28 Nov 2020 at 12:14 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-11-28 8:50:34 AM  
Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?
 
2020-11-28 8:58:32 AM  

Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history?


One down, only a few more millions to convince.
 
2020-11-28 9:05:29 AM  

Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?


The point is, it's pretty stupid that there are people out there debating in all seriousness whether far-fetched mythologies handed down from bronze-age goat-herds are actual history. What's next, looking for the real Zeus on Mount Olympus? Archeologists claiming they've dug up the original pit that contained the fire brought by Prometheus?
 
2020-11-28 9:49:33 AM  

Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?


Zeus's gonna get you for that, Urmuf.
 
2020-11-28 10:06:07 AM  
The unheard story of David and Goliath | Malcolm Gladwell
Youtube ziGD7vQOwl8
 
2020-11-28 11:08:23 AM  
That article is a mess. So, the biblical measurement used for goliath isn't based on the standard methods and terminology used throughout, it's actually based on wall widths this one time?
 
2020-11-28 11:38:29 AM  
R-i-i-i-i-g-g-g-h-h-t-t.

What's a "cubit"?
 
2020-11-28 12:09:37 PM  
the fact of the matter is we can't be sure He actually rode them.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-28 12:17:46 PM  
The water to wine thing was always meant to be a metaphor, how about transmutation and sharing and giving. The dinosaur thing is totes real though. Jesus rode a velociraptor, it is known
 
2020-11-28 12:20:48 PM  
Davey inconsolable.
 
2020-11-28 12:20:49 PM  

elvisaintdead: the fact of the matter is we can't be sure He actually rode them.

[Fark user image 284x384]


Dummy.  There's photographic evidence.

i.ytimg.comView Full Size
 
2020-11-28 12:22:13 PM  

chawco: The water to wine thing was always meant to be a metaphor,

Sunday Heroes "the Last Supper"
Youtube 70IAwHTzrHI

 
2020-11-28 12:32:16 PM  
The writer got it wrong, Jesus turned Dinosaurs into oil.  But since the ancestors didn't know what oil was they assumed it was bad wine.
 
2020-11-28 12:33:08 PM  
Being crucified was Biblical slang for nailing your crossfit trainer.
 
2020-11-28 12:35:04 PM  
those ancient measurements work out to 2.38 meters, or 7 feet, 10 inches. That's equal to the width of walls forming a gateway into Gath that were unearthed in 2019

Goliath was probably described metaphorically by an Old Testament writer as a warrior who matched the size and strength of Gath's defensive barrier, Chadwick said


That's a stupid implausible leap of "logic".
 
2020-11-28 12:35:52 PM  
Well he certainly changed wine into urine after the wedding feast.

/but then so did everyone
 
2020-11-28 12:40:21 PM  

Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?


Anyone who takes their morality from Bronze-Age nomads has problems.

/the morality of the old testament = "anything good that happens to our tribe is God's will."
//the morality of the new testament = "don't be a jerk" coontil Paul gets hold of it).
 
2020-11-28 12:41:18 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?

Anyone who takes their morality from Bronze-Age nomads has problems.

/the morality of the old testament = "anything good that happens to our tribe is God's will."
//the morality of the new testament = "don't be a jerk" coontil Paul gets hold of it).


Evidently not being a jerk is something the Fark filter hasn't heard of.
 
2020-11-28 12:43:25 PM  

thatguyoverthere70: Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?

Zeus's gonna get you for that, Urmuf.


Can tell you about Zeus:
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-28 12:44:59 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-28 12:58:22 PM  

jaytkay: those ancient measurements work out to 2.38 meters, or 7 feet, 10 inches. That's equal to the width of walls forming a gateway into Gath that were unearthed in 2019

Goliath was probably described metaphorically by an Old Testament writer as a warrior who matched the size and strength of Gath's defensive barrier, Chadwick said

That's a stupid implausible leap of "logic".


MAYBE  they took the opportunity to measure him after he was hit in the head with a rock and was lying down.  "Yup, just as I thought.  Lying down he's just as long as the width of the gateway wall in Gath.  You owe me 50 talents"

"You forgot to include his head."

"Dang!"

Prophet!
 
2020-11-28 1:07:26 PM  
Rowan Mr. Bean Atkinson - Vicar
Youtube hzNORwik0dY
 
2020-11-28 1:22:33 PM  
We have extra-Biblical evidence of 'Davidic' kingdoms, namely, the fact the other texts talk about them + archeological evidence. We have no corroborating evidence for anything prior to the establishment of said kingdom(s).

The story of the brave king who defeated a larger enemy in single combat is great PR for whatever king claims that king's line. But I doubt it has anything to with anything historical, except in a vague way (e.g., the king's won on the battlefield). And I suspect that seven-footers were even rarer then than they are today.
 
2020-11-28 1:34:05 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?

The point is, it's pretty stupid that there are people out there debating in all seriousness whether far-fetched mythologies handed down from bronze-age goat-herds are actual history. What's next, looking for the real Zeus on Mount Olympus? Archeologists claiming they've dug up the original pit that contained the fire brought by Prometheus?


A lot of the things listed in the Bible happened. There is evidence that this cool hippie dude completely upturned religion at the time. There is evidence that the David vs. Goliath battle occurred. These things happened, but the people writing the stories always added some artistic license. Not to mention the fact that different versions of the Bible were translated with an agenda in mind, most notably the King James version.

But most of these mythologies have roots in actual events.
 
2020-11-28 1:46:57 PM  

Therion: R-i-i-i-i-g-g-g-h-h-t-t.

What's a "cubit"?


Not something you can drug and rape.
 
2020-11-28 1:49:43 PM  

Mikey1969: Benevolent Misanthrope: Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?

The point is, it's pretty stupid that there are people out there debating in all seriousness whether far-fetched mythologies handed down from bronze-age goat-herds are actual history. What's next, looking for the real Zeus on Mount Olympus? Archeologists claiming they've dug up the original pit that contained the fire brought by Prometheus?

A lot of the things listed in the Bible happened. There is evidence that this cool hippie dude completely upturned religion at the time. There is evidence that the David vs. Goliath battle occurred. These things happened, but the people writing the stories always added some artistic license. Not to mention the fact that different versions of the Bible were translated with an agenda in mind, most notably the King James version.

But most of these mythologies have roots in actual events.


I think a good portion of the Old Testament has at least some basis in reality, though heavily mythologized.  I'm pretty convinced that the New Testament is pretty much 100% bullshiat outside of the general existence of Romans, spiritual leaders, and "troublesome" Jews.
 
2020-11-28 1:52:41 PM  
The bible, both old and new testament is a great historical document.  many athesit and agnostic scholars will often reference

The surest thing we know is Goliath was bigger than the average Philistine at the time, what his actual measurements are not all that important.  A slingshot can just as easily hit someone in the head that is 2 meters tall or 3 meters tall
 
2020-11-28 2:14:12 PM  

Hoban Washburne: Mikey1969: Benevolent Misanthrope: Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?

The point is, it's pretty stupid that there are people out there debating in all seriousness whether far-fetched mythologies handed down from bronze-age goat-herds are actual history. What's next, looking for the real Zeus on Mount Olympus? Archeologists claiming they've dug up the original pit that contained the fire brought by Prometheus?

A lot of the things listed in the Bible happened. There is evidence that this cool hippie dude completely upturned religion at the time. There is evidence that the David vs. Goliath battle occurred. These things happened, but the people writing the stories always added some artistic license. Not to mention the fact that different versions of the Bible were translated with an agenda in mind, most notably the King James version.

But most of these mythologies have roots in actual events.

I think a good portion of the Old Testament has at least some basis in reality, though heavily mythologized.  I'm pretty convinced that the New Testament is pretty much 100% bullshiat outside of the general existence of Romans, spiritual leaders, and "troublesome" Jews.


Colonel James Irwin hit a golf ball on the moon and then lead expeditions to Mount Ararat in Turkey to find Noah's Ark.

https://www.icr.org/article/7724/
 
2020-11-28 2:14:53 PM  
That's pretty cool that the walls actually measured out correctly. Perhaps the status of "giant" could have been a reference to comparatively smaller walls of Hebrew cities? It would appear as though either Goliath's stature or warrior status, or the size of the walls would have been common knowledge among people of the day, and more likely both if one were true.

A guy just two heads taller than everyone else would have been quite formidable, no giantism required.
 
2020-11-28 2:19:02 PM  
Yeah but Andre was still a giant right?
 
2020-11-28 2:43:06 PM  
I am first in line to disagree with the literal interpretation - of any text really. As has been shown abundantly over and over in the US the last few years:  people can be presented with both the spoken and written word and balf of them draw the exact opposite conclusion from the other half.

The point is: you should not draw the smug conclusoon that ancient people were idiots, only slightly surpassed by those who study them to determine the veracity of what was recorded in their time.

People simply... forget, and learn pretty much nothing from past experiences (flu epidemic comes to mind).

For instance: virtually everyone has a mental image of medieval knights on their majestic steeds...  Yeah. Those knights were roughly around 5' tall and rode plow horses.

Or how everyone - including the experts - knew better than to be stupid enough to believe the Homeric myth, until some amateur wingnut 'discovered' Troy.

/50 years ago I listened to a scholar hypothesize that David was probably under 5', and if Goliath was 6' or slightly more... Giant.
//Checking actual measurements, learning how people built things, and first conclusion you draw is 'deluded  religious nuts?'
///Not a deluded religious nut. There are many - many - things you can legitimately make fun of them for; this isn't one of them.
 
2020-11-28 2:45:41 PM  

TedCruz'sCrazyDad: Hoban Washburne: Mikey1969: Benevolent Misanthrope: Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?

The point is, it's pretty stupid that there are people out there debating in all seriousness whether far-fetched mythologies handed down from bronze-age goat-herds are actual history. What's next, looking for the real Zeus on Mount Olympus? Archeologists claiming they've dug up the original pit that contained the fire brought by Prometheus?

A lot of the things listed in the Bible happened. There is evidence that this cool hippie dude completely upturned religion at the time. There is evidence that the David vs. Goliath battle occurred. These things happened, but the people writing the stories always added some artistic license. Not to mention the fact that different versions of the Bible were translated with an agenda in mind, most notably the King James version.

But most of these mythologies have roots in actual events.

I think a good portion of the Old Testament has at least some basis in reality, though heavily mythologized.  I'm pretty convinced that the New Testament is pretty much 100% bullshiat outside of the general existence of Romans, spiritual leaders, and "troublesome" Jews.

Colonel James Irwin hit a golf ball on the moon and then lead expeditions to Mount Ararat in Turkey to find Noah's Ark.

https://www.icr.org/article/7724/


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-28 3:03:10 PM  

Tired_of_the_BS: Or how everyone - including the experts - knew better than to be stupid enough to believe the Homeric myth, until some amateur wingnut 'discovered' Troy.


You can never trust those 1850s experts
 
2020-11-28 3:25:22 PM  
Jesus just watered down the last jug of wine, figuring everyone was too plastered to know the difference and since we're still hearing about it today, it clearly worked.  That, or christians are mostly still a bunch of drunks.
 
2020-11-28 3:26:12 PM  
Know an old Palestinian who is convinced the nephilim walked the earth.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-28 3:37:01 PM  

LewDux: Tired_of_the_BS: Or how everyone - including the experts - knew better than to be stupid enough to believe the Homeric myth, until some amateur wingnut 'discovered' Troy.

You can never trust those 1850s experts


LoL. Exactly. Just like how easily 2/3rds or more of what I was taught in school as 'Science': Especially Biology and Earth Science - has completely changed.

Heh, Don't draw the conclusion I'm doubting or making fun of Science - that's how the Scientific Method is supposed to work.  But I'm always surprised when I talk to people who assume ancient people were dumb and yet don't question people who get it wrong because their contemporary perspective actively combats their ability to understand.

Another example:  Everyone - Everyone!  knows Native Americans were decimated by disease when Europeans began to settle here.  There are hundreds of documents describing empty cities that once housed thousands, whole sections of land already worked and orchards established that settlers took over.

The people who lived through it (and until quite recently) downplayed the severity: Europe had the plague: they'd seen populations decimated by a third, half, maybe even higher; but to believe the first hand account documents, it would mean Native Americans had been obliterated by as much or more than 90%.  A value so high it was dismissed out of hand as exaggeration.

Couldn't possibly be true...
 
2020-11-28 3:59:36 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?

The point is, it's pretty stupid that there are people out there debating in all seriousness whether far-fetched mythologies handed down from bronze-age goat-herds are actual history. What's next, looking for the real Zeus on Mount Olympus? Archeologists claiming they've dug up the original pit that contained the fire brought by Prometheus?


There isn't much far fetched about David and goliath anyway.

A dude used a ranged weapon to fire a bullet with roughly the impact of a .45 caliber bullet and hit a human in the head with it. Slings were accurate enough to to kill birds in flight, and the stones in the alleged area were very dense and heavy.

Meanwhile, Goliath was probably the result of some form of gigantism leaving him a bit slow and half blind.

The least believable part of the story is the idea that two armies would play this kind of game and not have rules against ranged vs melee.
 
2020-11-28 3:59:56 PM  
Turning water into wine is easy, with the right impurities.
 
2020-11-28 4:04:37 PM  
Goliath was a giant pickle.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-28 4:06:56 PM  

Mikey1969: ere is evidence that this cool hippie dude completely upturned religion at the time.


There's very scant evidence, and almost all of it postdates the events- the cool hippie dude upturned religion about a generation after his death, and the real consequences of it didn't happen until 200 years after that. If the dice rolled a little differently, instead of Jesus, we might all be praying to Hadrian's twink boyfriend (which he tried to launch an official cult around).

Smackledorfer: A dude used a ranged weapon to fire a bullet with roughly the impact of a .45 caliber bullet and hit a human in the head with it. Slings were accurate enough to to kill birds in flight, and the stones in the alleged area were very dense and heavy.


I always hate how shortchanged slings are in games. The issue with slings is that they require a fair bit of skill. To pre-Iron societies, they will fark your day up, and even against iron helmets, they're nothing to sneeze at. farking "enh, the Wizard gets a sling which does 1d4, that sounds fair," is bullshiat.
 
2020-11-28 4:11:59 PM  

Snapper Carr: Therion: R-i-i-i-i-g-g-g-h-h-t-t.

What's a "cubit"?

Not something you can drug and rape.


Lighten up, Francis...
 
2020-11-28 4:13:35 PM  

t3knomanser: I always hate how shortchanged slings are in games. The issue with slings is that they require a fair bit of skill. To pre-Iron societies, they will fark your day up, and even against iron helmets, they're nothing to sneeze at. farking "enh, the Wizard gets a sling which does 1d4, that sounds fair," is bullshiat.


Hehe.
 
2020-11-28 4:23:55 PM  
Average height of people in year 0 was about 5'5".   Anyone that was over six feet tall would have been giant, relatively speaking.
 
2020-11-28 4:40:51 PM  
Goliath was six cubits and a span tall, not four cubits and a span, according to [Googles it] 1 Samuel 17:4.
 
2020-11-28 4:47:08 PM  

Gentlequiet: Know an old Palestinian who is convinced the nephilim walked the earth.

[Fark user image 400x314]


I think all myth has a kernel of truth in it.
 
2020-11-28 5:35:01 PM  
I love these click bait articles that throughout say "may have", "possibly", etc... when coming up with any theory about what the author wants to believe.  They are interesting to read in that they do contain some facts like the information about the walls of the city.  I also love how all the religion haters immediately chime in with their sky god myth statements any time anything about the bible is mentioned.  I don't know how they have the energy but they sure manage to keep it up!
 
2020-11-28 9:04:19 PM  

Hoopy Frood: Goliath was six cubits and a span tall, not four cubits and a span, according to [Googles it] 1 Samuel 17:4.


Unfortunately your google skills provided you incomplete information for your gotcha moment.
 
2020-11-28 10:45:29 PM  

Hoopy Frood: Goliath was six cubits and a span tall, not four cubits and a span, according to [Googles it] 1 Samuel 17:4.


I thought it was six seasons and a movie.
 
2020-11-28 10:51:56 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?

The point is, it's pretty stupid that there are people out there debating in all seriousness whether far-fetched mythologies handed down from bronze-age goat-herds are actual history. What's next, looking for the real Zeus on Mount Olympus? Archeologists claiming they've dug up the original pit that contained the fire brought by Prometheus?


Uh, thanks?
 
2020-11-28 10:53:59 PM  

Mikey1969: Benevolent Misanthrope: Urmuf Hamer: Wait! You mean mythologies aren't literally history? fark me. Is it okay if they still educate and inform philosophies and morality? Or do we eat the baby and boil the bathwater for tea?

The point is, it's pretty stupid that there are people out there debating in all seriousness whether far-fetched mythologies handed down from bronze-age goat-herds are actual history. What's next, looking for the real Zeus on Mount Olympus? Archeologists claiming they've dug up the original pit that contained the fire brought by Prometheus?

A lot of the things listed in the Bible happened. There is evidence that this cool hippie dude completely upturned religion at the time. There is evidence that the David vs. Goliath battle occurred. These things happened, but the people writing the stories always added some artistic license. Not to mention the fact that different versions of the Bible were translated with an agenda in mind, most notably the King James version.

But most of these mythologies have roots in actual events.


Uh, thanks?
 
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