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(Washington Post)   So...we have reached the point where pointing out lies is somehow "polarizing and divisive" George Orwell seen in corner shaking his head   (washingtonpost.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Dianne Feinstein, Fraud, United States Senate, Democratic Party, President of the United States, Barbara Boxer, Twitter, real world  
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2074 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Nov 2020 at 2:08 PM (8 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-11-25 12:33:22 PM  
We've just *now* reached that point.  I remember people answering bullshiat with simple Politifact/Snopes links on FB was considered "divisive"....like 10 years ago.
 
2020-11-25 12:48:50 PM  
And telling lies constantly isn't polarizing, but pointing out that they're lies is polarizing?
 
2020-11-25 12:50:09 PM  
I don't see how democracy can function if there's no agreement on objective truth.  Of course, that was their goal all along, so it shouldn't be a surprise.
 
2020-11-25 12:53:20 PM  
Would you look at that? Those that are fed a steady diet of lies and alternate reality from birth, find being presented with truth as divisive?

You don't say?
 
Xai [TotalFark]
2020-11-25 1:29:27 PM  
This shows you what the problem is, it isn't that they believe he speaks the truth, but that they want to support his lying and are polarised at twitter's attempts to undermine those lies.
 
2020-11-25 2:11:17 PM  
Who cares if it's divisive if it serves the greater good?
 
2020-11-25 2:12:05 PM  
One side lies.

The other side fails to call out the lies.

And now Twitter wonders why slapping a "disputed" sticker on Trump's lying posts doesn't overcome decades of propaganda?

Well, I am sure they will eventually get there if they keep working at it.
 
2020-11-25 2:12:29 PM  
It's not "polarizing"--it's people who've been duped by the lies digging in when they're told they're lies.  It's what humans do.  It's a psychological element in human brains.  That's not an excuse for letting liars get away with it.
 
2020-11-25 2:12:40 PM  
This is the end result of transforming the nation into a herd of entertainment consumers.
 
2020-11-25 2:13:01 PM  
When you are raised to believe myths literally and that anyone who disagrees with you is going to literally be tortured for all  eternity by a hateful god, it's not surprising that any dissent against the authority recognized by their cult leaders is seen as wrong and evil.

There are tons of extremist fundamentalists in this country being raised with a dark ages mindset.  It will not be too long until they turn to violence to protect their world view.  They haven't needed to, because they have a hold on the Republican Party.  That won't last forever.
 
2020-11-25 2:13:10 PM  
America is chock-a-block full of hateful, ignorant gimbuses.  They should be mocked and ignored, treating them seriously only emboldens them.
 
2020-11-25 2:13:19 PM  
Guys they wouldn't be lies if you'd just believe them
 
2020-11-25 2:13:26 PM  

quatchi: One side lies.

The other side fails to call out the lies.

And now Twitter wonders why slapping a "disputed" sticker on Trump's lying posts doesn't overcome decades of propaganda?

Well, I am sure they will eventually get there if they keep working at it.


Also this.  Suddenly stepping in and going, "No, these are lies" after you let them go unchecked for years just makes you look like you're starting to silence people.  It feeds into their paranoia.  This is Twitter's own fault.
 
2020-11-25 2:14:07 PM  
One definitive way I know I am watching a tv show written for an Aemrican audience:

The plot involves leaders lying to follwoers, so the followers "feel secure" because "we don't want to cause a panic."

Of course I used to think the lying was the actual problema nd those leaders were the real monsters or villains. It wasn't until Trump was elected that I realized Americans actually believe in secrecy and lying to people as a protagonist's leadership technique. I can't find that in literature or movies from anywhere else. The lying is there, but it is considered the antagonism in the plot.
 
2020-11-25 2:14:14 PM  

ShavedOrangutan: And telling lies constantly isn't polarizing, but pointing out that they're lies is polarizing?


BSAB so let grandma continue to believe the Clinton's are harvesting baby blood but Daddy Trump won the reelection and will stop them. You don't want to hurt grandma's fee fees do you and be the person who "ALWAYS has to tell them what to believe" with your "facts" and "college education"
 
2020-11-25 2:14:42 PM  
Democracy died when we had only one political party with an ideology to discuss and debate issues. The other party had no ideas, or knew they were failed ideas, so they built an entire ideology around just lying about everything. 40% of the country were too stupid to know any better, and another 10~20% just could not care either way.

Most of these (R)epugnants like Turtle won't be alive to face the consequences of our doom, he sure in the hell doesn't care how history will judge him. As long as he gets that precious tax break so he doesn't have to pay for anything else.

Answer is simple: DIVORCE. We need to split this country in two, and just let (R)epugants have their Jebeusland.
 
2020-11-25 2:14:46 PM  

UberDave: We've just *now* reached that point.  I remember people answering bullshiat with simple Politifact/Snopes links on FB was considered "divisive"....like 10 years ago.


Yeah, I remember using Snopes in the early Obama days and being told that it was a left-wing website.  Even if you went to the Snopes article and opened their sources, it was like fruit from the poisoned tree.

Couple that with reality's well documented liberal bias and it's very hard to convince people of anything.
 
2020-11-25 2:16:58 PM  
These are the same people that believe Jesus rode velociraptors.

They believe the earth is 6,500 years old.

They cannot be taken seriously. About the only valid opinions you'll get from people like these are opinions that require zero actual knowledge or evidence. Otherwise they are Dunning-Kreuger turned up to eleven.
 
2020-11-25 2:16:59 PM  
"Divisive" was one of the favorite words Republicans had for Obama.

I'm not gonna go look for it but there was a funny (in a sickening sense, not a "ha ha" sense) editorial by Very Serious, Fair and Balanced, and Totally Not Racist journalist Greta Van Susteren who was upset that Obama was being deliberately "divisive" by allowing the Treasury to suggest putting Harriet Tubman on the $20.
 
2020-11-25 2:17:10 PM  
Every time I point out that trump worshipers on this site are f*cking liars, I get polarized from my account for 24 hours, so I guess the article is true.  The other issue being that all MAGAts are weak, soft, little snowflakes who can't deal with the truth about themselves.
 
2020-11-25 2:18:12 PM  
Have we also reached a point where our society is reliant and technology and few understand it?

Because nobody saw the roots of all this decades ago AND WARNED EVERYONE.... no sir.
 
2020-11-25 2:18:34 PM  

bluejeansonfire: Who cares if it's divisive if it serves the greater good?


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-25 2:18:37 PM  
This is just epistemic nihilism.
 
2020-11-25 2:18:51 PM  
Not to be "that guy", but I think Fark reached that plateau around the point that the phrase "Fartbongo" was coined.
 
2020-11-25 2:20:27 PM  
It's not the calling it out that's polarizing, just as it's not the testing that causes covid cases.
 
2020-11-25 2:20:39 PM  

ssa5: Answer is simple: DIVORCE. We need to split this country in two, and just let (R)epugants have their Jebeusland.


It would be a lot more convenient of the Founding Fathers had placed Alamaba next to Idaho.

But we can't shirk out duties. Time for another Trail of Tears.
 
2020-11-25 2:21:15 PM  

ShavedOrangutan: And telling lies constantly isn't polarizing, but pointing out that they're lies is polarizing?


These are the same people who think that those pointing out racism are the actual racists. You know, morons
 
2020-11-25 2:22:33 PM  
When the history is written, the First Amendment will ultimately be the bullet that killed our nation and civilized society.

The internet is the rifle the bullet is shot out of.
 
2020-11-25 2:22:42 PM  

jaytkay: "Divisive" was one of the favorite words Republicans had for Obama.

I'm not gonna go look for it but there was a funny (in a sickening sense, not a "ha ha" sense) editorial by Very Serious, Fair and Balanced, and Totally Not Racist journalist Greta Van Susteren who was upset that Obama was being deliberately "divisive" by allowing the Treasury to suggest putting Harriet Tubman on the $20.


The word "divisive" gets trotted out whenever someone dares to point out injustice.  This allows the narrative to be reframed so that the person calling out the injustice is in the wrong for "making waves," rather than those for performing the injustice to begin with.  Julia Serrano talks about this a bit in her frictions with TERFs in her various writings.
 
2020-11-25 2:23:20 PM  
Right wingers have always felt that pointing out dishonesty, lying, cheating etc was "Disrespectful" - when you're doing it to them.

Meanwhile they shiat all over objective fact and reality on the daily in their attacks on basically everyone that's a human being.

What I'm saying is, they can get farked and die mad about it. No one should give a shiat about their shiatty opinions, and should instead focus that energy on getting them all put into re-education camps.
 
2020-11-25 2:25:01 PM  
No, they're right.

Correcting cranks in general only succeeds in making them angry and convincing them that you're a dupe of the conspiracy against them.

Correcting Trump's tweets only encourages the Redcaps' belief that Twitter is a Yid-Bolshevik plot.

Just delete his account for repeated abuses and violations of TOS.
 
2020-11-25 2:25:09 PM  

Where wolf: UberDave: We've just *now* reached that point.  I remember people answering bullshiat with simple Politifact/Snopes links on FB was considered "divisive"....like 10 years ago.

Yeah, I remember using Snopes in the early Obama days and being told that it was a left-wing website.  Even if you went to the Snopes article and opened their sources, it was like fruit from the poisoned tree.

Couple that with reality's well documented liberal bias and it's very hard to convince people of anything.


Every single website that has engaged in the business of discussing what is true has been labeled left-wing garbage and therefore inadmissible. Every one. It is unfortunate that one cannot use factual, unbiased sources to prove this to people, people all those sources ipso-facto become liberal garbage by their very nature of being the bearers of the truth.

You can see this happen in real time at places like Fox News, which does some accurate reporting from time to time and is immediately labeled as having turned into a liberal rag.
 
2020-11-25 2:26:13 PM  
They aren't lies, you see.  They are alternative facts from the alternative universe that only exists in their minds.

Telling them that their alternative universe doesn't exist simply makes them more likely to double down on it.

Mystical unicorn farts and delusions.
 
2020-11-25 2:26:48 PM  
It's not polarizing and divisive for reasonable people, just idiots.  Let's focus on how to handle them vs. painting with this broad brush.
 
2020-11-25 2:26:58 PM  

ssa5: Democracy died when we had only one political party with an ideology to discuss and debate issues. The other party had no ideas, or knew they were failed ideas, so they built an entire ideology around just lying about everything. 40% of the country were too stupid to know any better, and another 10~20% just could not care either way.

Most of these (R)epugnants like Turtle won't be alive to face the consequences of our doom, he sure in the hell doesn't care how history will judge him. As long as he gets that precious tax break so he doesn't have to pay for anything else.

Answer is simple: DIVORCE. We need to split this country in two, and just let (R)epugants have their Jebeusland.


This. I'm tired of the regressive trash keeping up from joining the civilized world. Let them have their theocratic dominion. Then kill any of them that try to pollute the rest of us with their madness as they will inevitably try to pop over the border once their paradise leaves the taste of ash in their mouths.
 
2020-11-25 2:27:50 PM  
Never wrong; always wronged.
 
2020-11-25 2:30:23 PM  

neongoats: Right wingers have always felt that pointing out dishonesty, lying, cheating etc was "Disrespectful" - when you're doing it to them.

Meanwhile they shiat all over objective fact and reality on the daily in their attacks on basically everyone that's a human being.

What I'm saying is, they can get farked and die mad about it. No one should give a shiat about their shiatty opinions, and should instead focus that energy on getting them all put into re-education camps.


fark that. Ignore them, completely. In fact I'd say go even further - give them the opportunity to opt out of stuff. We can pay a tax and have universal coverage, and they can opt out and then get sick and die. They need to learn, on their own, that they are all talk and hypocrisy and do nothing but take for granted everything we do to make this country better in spite of them.

We need to focus on education and information awareness for the upcoming generations, so they don't get hijacked by a world in complete chaos and disarray because assholes like these keep shiatting onto everything to hold onto what's remaining of their "deeply held beliefs".

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it. . . . An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarized with the ideas from the beginning: another instance of the fact that the future lies with the youth.

-Max Planck, Scientific autobiography, 1950
 
2020-11-25 2:31:48 PM  
They say that which can be destroyed by the truth, should be. But that's not happening. We're going to need something stronger, like baseball bats wrapped with chain and barbed wire.
 
2020-11-25 2:32:18 PM  
Polar coordinates are the function of an axis. Divisive appears in the dictionary after dissent.

You can't explain prove that!
 
2020-11-25 2:37:08 PM  
Are you kidding?? This is what the "division" has always been blamed on - that conservatives are called out and held accountable. Because they don't like that - that has consequences. That hurts their feelings. So that is the fault of the folks that brought it up.

But Benghazi!! Buttery Males!!

If they had just apologized outright for Nixon.
 
2020-11-25 2:41:15 PM  

I'm an Egyptian!: ssa5: Democracy died when we had only one political party with an ideology to discuss and debate issues. The other party had no ideas, or knew they were failed ideas, so they built an entire ideology around just lying about everything. 40% of the country were too stupid to know any better, and another 10~20% just could not care either way.

Most of these (R)epugnants like Turtle won't be alive to face the consequences of our doom, he sure in the hell doesn't care how history will judge him. As long as he gets that precious tax break so he doesn't have to pay for anything else.

Answer is simple: DIVORCE. We need to split this country in two, and just let (R)epugants have their Jebeusland.

This. I'm tired of the regressive trash keeping up from joining the civilized world. Let them have their theocratic dominion. Then kill any of them that try to pollute the rest of us with their madness as they will inevitably try to pop over the border once their paradise leaves the taste of ash in their mouths.


Worked out great for the Middle East....oh wait, no.  Unless your plan is to systematically exterminate and sterilize them en masse like how Native Americans were treated the MAGA problem will spill over any border you try to create.
 
2020-11-25 2:43:06 PM  
It is well past time that we start defunding the more conservative parts of the countries and moving the military assets away from conservative areas.
 
2020-11-25 2:44:54 PM  
Its amazing to me how badly people want those lies to be true.
 
2020-11-25 2:45:47 PM  

Jiggatron69: I'm an Egyptian!: ssa5: Democracy died when we had only one political party with an ideology to discuss and debate issues. The other party had no ideas, or knew they were failed ideas, so they built an entire ideology around just lying about everything. 40% of the country were too stupid to know any better, and another 10~20% just could not care either way.

Most of these (R)epugnants like Turtle won't be alive to face the consequences of our doom, he sure in the hell doesn't care how history will judge him. As long as he gets that precious tax break so he doesn't have to pay for anything else.

Answer is simple: DIVORCE. We need to split this country in two, and just let (R)epugants have their Jebeusland.

This. I'm tired of the regressive trash keeping up from joining the civilized world. Let them have their theocratic dominion. Then kill any of them that try to pollute the rest of us with their madness as they will inevitably try to pop over the border once their paradise leaves the taste of ash in their mouths.

Worked out great for the Middle East....oh wait, no.  Unless your plan is to systematically exterminate and sterilize them en masse like how Native Americans were treated the MAGA problem will spill over any border you try to create.


And the Middle East having arbitrary boundaries carved out by the Sykes-Picot agreement, coupled by colonial practices over the course of a century or so had nothing to do with it.
 
2020-11-25 2:46:47 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-11-25 2:50:51 PM  

ssa5: Democracy died when we had only one political party with an ideology to discuss and debate issues. The other party had no ideas, or knew they were failed ideas, so they built an entire ideology around just lying about everything. 40% of the country were too stupid to know any better, and another 10~20% just could not care either way.

Most of these (R)epugnants like Turtle won't be alive to face the consequences of our doom, he sure in the hell doesn't care how history will judge him. As long as he gets that precious tax break so he doesn't have to pay for anything else.

Answer is simple: DIVORCE. We need to split this country in two, and just let (R)epugants have their Jebeusland.


And then nuke it. They would be like the christian version of ISIS but with nukes.
 
2020-11-25 2:53:52 PM  
Much of society is a lie... from religion to money to corporations to the very concept of a country itself.  These are all imaginary things... myths that we tell each other, which only have power if we collectively believe that they do.

But that collective belief is incredibly powerful, allowing disparate people to cooperate in complex ways.  No lies, no cooperation, and without that cooperation we'd regress to stone age family units, and almost all of us would die.

Which is why just pointing out that a cherished lie is a lie doesn't convince anyone, instead it makes them angry & defensive... you are attacking their collective delusion, also known as their culture, and hence their livelihood.

If you really want to convince people to not believe in one set of lies, you have to give them different set of lies, allowing them to break away from one cultural group and embed in a different one.

But a human mind can't just jump from, say, white nationalism to secular humanism.  The brain rejects incompatible ideals, like a body rejecting a transplant.  You need transitional groups.

And that's what's most dangerous about America today.  Two fundamentally incompatible cultures have emerged, and transitioning people from one to the other is difficult due to the lack of tolerance for "moderates".

Impure ideologies are quickly jumped upon, and the offending individual is cancelled from the herd, leaving them adrift and socially helpless.  No one wants to risk that, so they don't, instead they rigidly stick with their group.

But this results in an unstable situation... without a shared national identity, the idea of America itself is at risk.  Sooner or later one or both of our cultures will collapse... and it is impossible to predict what will replace them.
 
2020-11-25 2:55:38 PM  

OneFretAway: I don't see how democracy can function if there's no agreement on objective truth.  Of course, that was their goal all along, so it shouldn't be a surprise.


Hitler did it, too.  When people don't know what to believe, they will grasp at anything that brings comfort.  Like Parler.
 
Ant
2020-11-25 2:55:57 PM  

ssa5: Democracy died when we had only one political party with an ideology to discuss and debate issues. The other party had no ideas, or knew they were failed ideas, so they built an entire ideology around just lying about everything. 40% of the country were too stupid to know any better, and another 10~20% just could not care either way.

Most of these (R)epugnants like Turtle won't be alive to face the consequences of our doom, he sure in the hell doesn't care how history will judge him. As long as he gets that precious tax break so he doesn't have to pay for anything else.

Answer is simple: DIVORCE. We need to split this country in two, and just let (R)epugants have their Jebeusland.


Where's the physical split going to be? It's not North/South. How about we sacrifice one state to them and tell them all to move there? Florida, maybe?
 
2020-11-25 3:04:19 PM  

SomeAmerican: Much of society is a lie... from religion to money to corporations to the very concept of a country itself.  These are all imaginary things... myths that we tell each other, which only have power if we collectively believe that they do.

But that collective belief is incredibly powerful, allowing disparate people to cooperate in complex ways.  No lies, no cooperation, and without that cooperation we'd regress to stone age family units, and almost all of us would die.

Which is why just pointing out that a cherished lie is a lie doesn't convince anyone, instead it makes them angry & defensive... you are attacking their collective delusion, also known as their culture, and hence their livelihood.

If you really want to convince people to not believe in one set of lies, you have to give them different set of lies, allowing them to break away from one cultural group and embed in a different one.

But a human mind can't just jump from, say, white nationalism to secular humanism.  The brain rejects incompatible ideals, like a body rejecting a transplant.  You need transitional groups.

And that's what's most dangerous about America today.  Two fundamentally incompatible cultures have emerged, and transitioning people from one to the other is difficult due to the lack of tolerance for "moderates".

Impure ideologies are quickly jumped upon, and the offending individual is cancelled from the herd, leaving them adrift and socially helpless.  No one wants to risk that, so they don't, instead they rigidly stick with their group.

But this results in an unstable situation... without a shared national identity, the idea of America itself is at risk.  Sooner or later one or both of our cultures will collapse... and it is impossible to predict what will replace them.


I see what you're getting at, but allow me to respectfully disagree. All lies are stories, but not all stories are lies. When we tell the story of a religion or a country or a corporation, it doesn't have to be a lie. Part of the story can be adapting to changing circumstances or evidence; that's the story of the scientific method (or the Enlightenment, if you prefer). The story only becomes a lie when the storyteller denies reality, and arguably not even then; it's just a story of what the teller believes to be true. And that's where I think we run into issues: we have varying interpretations of what constitutes "truth" and how important that is. My encounters with Trump supporters (for example) suggest that they are not interested in factual truth but in dogmatic truth; they've bound themselves to a particular story, and the only thing which will displace it is a more compelling one.
 
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