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(Reason Magazine)   Biden gets an endorsement from a really unlikely source   (reason.com) divider line
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4282 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 Oct 2020 at 6:51 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2020-10-30 3:38:34 PM  
A to the muthafu**kin men. Arbitrary licensing is bad for small businesses and entrepreneurs and does nothing to help or protect consumers.
 
2020-10-30 3:41:39 PM  
Reason gonna Reason.

The report went on to note that "over 1,100 occupations are regulated in at least one State, but fewer than 60 are regulated in all 50 States" and that "States also have very different requirements for obtaining a license." The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety.

The Report

Conclusion

In many fields, occupational licensing plays an important role in protecting consumers and ensuring quality. Licensing can also encourage practitioners to invest in and maintain their skills.  These benefits are important to both consumers and licensed practitioners
 
2020-10-30 5:31:12 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: Reason gonna Reason.

The report went on to note that "over 1,100 occupations are regulated in at least one State, but fewer than 60 are regulated in all 50 States" and that "States also have very different requirements for obtaining a license." The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety.

The Report

Conclusion
In many fields, occupational licensing plays an important role in protecting consumers and ensuring quality. Licensing can also encourage practitioners to invest in and maintain their skills.  These benefits are important to both consumers and licensed practitioners


These are all good points, but ya know, there's a reason we have the phrase, "this is why we can't have nice things."

Government regulates stuff, "Oh noooo, those jack-booted thugs are harming these scrappy entrepreneurs"

Government de-regulates stuff (and a disabled veteran with 12 foster children is injured) or (massive fraud occurs), "Oh nooooo, why did government let this happen"

And doctors and lawyers will line up to prevent changes in practice scope and they pull a lot of weight.

We (society, government) are human. Can't eliminate all risk. Criminals are gonna find the loopholes. Oil is gonna get poured on ducks. Scrappy entrepreneurs are gonna go bankrupt because of regulations. Finding the middle ground is hard.
 
2020-10-30 6:26:56 PM  

LadySusan: Soup4Bonnie: Reason gonna Reason.

The report went on to note that "over 1,100 occupations are regulated in at least one State, but fewer than 60 are regulated in all 50 States" and that "States also have very different requirements for obtaining a license." The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety.

The Report

Conclusion
In many fields, occupational licensing plays an important role in protecting consumers and ensuring quality. Licensing can also encourage practitioners to invest in and maintain their skills.  These benefits are important to both consumers and licensed practitioners

These are all good points, but ya know, there's a reason we have the phrase, "this is why we can't have nice things."

Government regulates stuff, "Oh noooo, those jack-booted thugs are harming these scrappy entrepreneurs"

Government de-regulates stuff (and a disabled veteran with 12 foster children is injured) or (massive fraud occurs), "Oh nooooo, why did government let this happen"

And doctors and lawyers will line up to prevent changes in practice scope and they pull a lot of weight.

We (society, government) are human. Can't eliminate all risk. Criminals are gonna find the loopholes. Oil is gonna get poured on ducks. Scrappy entrepreneurs are gonna go bankrupt because of regulations. Finding the middle ground is hard.


I'll respectfully disagree.

The reason why we have these rules and regulations is because a group of people will always be unscrupulous by taking more than they should because of the lack of ethics.

The barriers prevent unethical people from walking all over ethical or trusting people.

There is no middle ground, so you make the ground so narrow that it will be reduced to a fraction.
 
2020-10-30 6:45:39 PM  
preview.redd.itView Full Size
 
2020-10-30 6:54:34 PM  
Jesus. Save it until after the election. This is going to give trump +5 in Iowa and +7 in Texas.
 
2020-10-30 6:56:48 PM  
Treason found 1 plank in Joe's policies that they like?

Get rid of it.
 
2020-10-30 7:02:56 PM  
Man there were lotsa cute single-moms
when I went to Medical Assistant School

/ phlebotomy !
 
2020-10-30 7:03:13 PM  
The author of that article needs a high five. In the face. With a brick.
/Not disagreeing with the central point, which could have fit in a tweet.
 
2020-10-30 7:03:39 PM  
..."though you have to scroll through a lot of blather about evil corporations and saintly unions to find it."

Go fark yourself Reason...I mean, I appreciate the kind words for Biden, but seriously go fark yourself with a rusty pickax.
 
2020-10-30 7:03:58 PM  
Is the endorsement from the Taliban and UBL's niece?

Oh, no, those went to Trump.
 
2020-10-30 7:04:09 PM  
The comments section is so full of derp that they are going to have to flush several times. It's (not) amazing to see so many professed 'libertarians' defending Trump who has repeatedly shredded and trampled the Constitution.
 
2020-10-30 7:04:44 PM  
Reason, really focusing on the vital stuff.
 
2020-10-30 7:07:56 PM  
Making certification the same between states, so that they are transportable, is a great idea.
 
2020-10-30 7:14:39 PM  
Cool, like reforming POST education and certification to require more than 21 weeks?  Or having a national standard for police initial training, continual training, and quality control for behavior?

A lot of certifications are rent seeking or exclusionary, yes, but a lot do good to set minimum training standards for professionals in a lot of fields.  Glad to see there's interest in reforming the bad ones.
 
2020-10-30 7:19:20 PM  

Bennie Crabtree: Making certification the same between states, so that they are transportable, is a great idea.


My wife's medical lab technologist certification is federal
 
2020-10-30 7:28:00 PM  
Lack of licensing regulation is the reason why a dumb connected ahole like Rand Paul can create his own organization to give himself a license to be an eye doctor. He wasn't smart enough to do what all the other professionals in his state had done, so he went around it. You may as well go to a homeopath to get your eyes checked before letting Rand Paul farking prescribe you a set of glasses.
 
2020-10-30 7:29:20 PM  
But has Reason magazine sought comment from Ayn Rand, or did they misplace the Ouija Board?
 
2020-10-30 7:31:17 PM  

beezeltown: A to the muthafu**kin men. Arbitrary licensing is bad for small businesses and entrepreneurs and does nothing to help or protect consumers.


This is a serious issue that will help working Americans and small business.
 
2020-10-30 7:31:21 PM  
Are we only talking about blue collar license/certs or are PMPs, CPAs and other 3 letter money grabs also up for the chopping block?
 
2020-10-30 7:32:46 PM  

Elzar: Are we only talking about blue collar license/certs or are PMPs, CPAs and other 3 letter money grabs also up for the chopping block?


Some stuff may need to be state specific
Law is
Building codes?
 
2020-10-30 7:33:54 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: Reason gonna Reason.

The report went on to note that "over 1,100 occupations are regulated in at least one State, but fewer than 60 are regulated in all 50 States" and that "States also have very different requirements for obtaining a license." The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety.

The Report

Conclusion
In many fields, occupational licensing plays an important role in protecting consumers and ensuring quality. Licensing can also encourage practitioners to invest in and maintain their skills.  These benefits are important to both consumers and licensed practitioners


Licensing is an important part of business, but the standards for each trade shouldn't change as widely as they do from state to state.  Federalizing a benchmark certification then having a local cert to make up the difference would be better than having one completely different certification from state to state.
 
2020-10-30 7:39:31 PM  

Tarl3k: ..."though you have to scroll through a lot of blather about evil corporations and saintly unions to find it."

Go fark yourself Reason...I mean, I appreciate the kind words for Biden, but seriously go fark yourself with a rusty pickax.


Seriously, how they hell do they reconcile "government controlling your life = bad" with "corporations controlling your life = good"?  And why is it OK for people to incorporate as businesses but not as worker's unions?
 
2020-10-30 7:40:36 PM  

Bennie Crabtree: Making certification the same between states, so that they are transportable, is a great idea.


This.  It is asinine that you can be certified in one state and then basically have to start over if you move.  Certification can be insanely expensive and time-consuming, and there's no good reason to have to do it more than once in the same goddamned country.
 
2020-10-30 7:42:01 PM  

Cornelis de Gyselaer: Bennie Crabtree: Making certification the same between states, so that they are transportable, is a great idea.

My wife's medical lab technologist certification is federal


Great.  Now let's get almost literally every other profession on board.
 
2020-10-30 7:44:25 PM  

austerity101: Bennie Crabtree: Making certification the same between states, so that they are transportable, is a great idea.

This.  It is asinine that you can be certified in one state and then basically have to start over if you move.  Certification can be insanely expensive and time-consuming, and there's no good reason to have to do it more than once in the same goddamned country.


What's interesting is I'm a librarian I have a masters degree I do not have to certify or In most cases do continuing Ed although it's encouraged

Professors PhD  ditto (they usually have publications or research requiments)

Teachers have both by state no less

HMM
 
2020-10-30 7:45:43 PM  

austerity101: Cornelis de Gyselaer: Bennie Crabtree: Making certification the same between states, so that they are transportable, is a great idea.

My wife's medical lab technologist certification is federal

Great.  Now let's get almost literally every other profession on board.


Completely agree
Again law may need to be an exception
Building codes too probably
 
2020-10-30 8:12:29 PM  
"The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety."

No and you're dumb. Something happens, someone says there oughtta be a law and politicians who win on popularity instead of knowledge make it happen without proper due diligence and with the influence of industry types and moneyed types, and without the people who will be affected able to provide feedback.

There's a law about having an ice cream cone in your back pocket in 3 states. Why? Someone found you can lure a horse away and not be accused of stealing. One state did it and two others thought it was a good idea. It was a solution for those people not an arbitrary hurdle.
 
2020-10-30 8:18:02 PM  
This is yet another place where nuance is important, and it's not just "regulations good" or "regulations bad". Obviously, no one wants to be treated by a doctor who isn't board-certified, or to hire a lawyer that couldn't pass the bar. On the flip side, TFA gives the example of a hair braider needing 600 hours of training to be licensed in one state, which is obviously a giant WTF. The difficultly of being licensed in a given profession should depend on both the difficulty of doing the job correctly and the level of consequences if you fark up badly. There are times when that's a high standard, there are times when -any- level of requirement makes no sense, and there's a whole lot of in-between cases,

Needing to be licensed to drive a forklift, for instance, makes sense - plowing into pallet racking can kill someone, and there's rules of safe operation that apply to pretty much any warehouse machine. However, let's be realistic - it's not a terribly difficult machine to operate, and it's not like you're driving one down a highway at 70 MPH. If it takes hundreds of hours to get certified on that, that's obviously overkill. (I don't know of any state where this is the case, I'm just using this as an example of where licensing makes sense... but within reason.)

As others have pointed out, federal certs also make a lot of sense. Law being done by state makes sense as the laws obviously differ, and I'd imagine some of the court procedures and such as well... but if you know how to wire a house in Maine, following those same techniques isn't going to fireball a house in New Hampshire.
 
2020-10-30 8:18:38 PM  

Cornelis de Gyselaer: austerity101: Bennie Crabtree: Making certification the same between states, so that they are transportable, is a great idea.

This.  It is asinine that you can be certified in one state and then basically have to start over if you move.  Certification can be insanely expensive and time-consuming, and there's no good reason to have to do it more than once in the same goddamned country.

What's interesting is I'm a librarian I have a masters degree I do not have to certify or In most cases do continuing Ed although it's encouraged

Professors PhD  ditto (they usually have publications or research requiments)

Teachers have both by state no less

HMM


During my brief teaching career, I was granted a provisional license by the state of Nevada because even though my education had come from a state with higher standards (Oregon requires a master's degree plus higher scores on the dreaded Praxis exams) I was missing courses on the US and Nevada constitutions, and one of the sections of the Praxis exam that was required in Oregon didn't count here, and there was an additional section not required in Oregon that was required in Nevada. I ended up leaving that career path before my license expired but just to stay licensed here, I would've had to take two additional college courses and pass yet another goddamned standardized test. On top of the CE courses teachers are already expected to take.

/for those not familiar, the dreaded Praxis exams are standardized tests in your core subject area, and are pretty damn difficult
//and I passed mine the first time around while the rest of my cohort all had to retake sections 😝
///public school made me very good at standardized tests
 
2020-10-30 8:20:05 PM  
Reason intentionally lying? Must be a Friday.

If you need a reason for not relaxing occupational licensure regulations, look to the New Jersey First Aid council.
 
2020-10-30 8:20:18 PM  
I think we might be skipping over the fact that Reason called Biden the likely winner of the election. Reason did that.
 
2020-10-30 8:23:16 PM  

LadySusan: Soup4Bonnie: Reason gonna Reason.

The report went on to note that "over 1,100 occupations are regulated in at least one State, but fewer than 60 are regulated in all 50 States" and that "States also have very different requirements for obtaining a license." The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety.

The Report

Conclusion
In many fields, occupational licensing plays an important role in protecting consumers and ensuring quality. Licensing can also encourage practitioners to invest in and maintain their skills.  These benefits are important to both consumers and licensed practitioners

These are all good points, but ya know, there's a reason we have the phrase, "this is why we can't have nice things."

Government regulates stuff, "Oh noooo, those jack-booted thugs are harming these scrappy entrepreneurs"

Government de-regulates stuff (and a disabled veteran with 12 foster children is injured) or (massive fraud occurs), "Oh nooooo, why did government let this happen"

And doctors and lawyers will line up to prevent changes in practice scope and they pull a lot of weight.

We (society, government) are human. Can't eliminate all risk. Criminals are gonna find the loopholes. Oil is gonna get poured on ducks. Scrappy entrepreneurs are gonna go bankrupt because of regulations. Finding the middle ground is hard.


To be fair - consistent regulation from state to state is good, and sometimes some of those occupational regulations are just crap

Those of us who believe regulation is the appropriate answer to many issues should also make sure that we're fighting for good, effective, logically/scientifically-driven regulations.
 
2020-10-30 8:36:08 PM  
The back seat of a Volkswagen?
 
2020-10-30 8:38:19 PM  
Yep, I'm credentialed as a teacher in CA and TX. TX requires 160 CEs, but CA got smart and decided just to charge money to renew every four years or so. Pay's better, too.
 
2020-10-30 9:05:46 PM  

LadySusan: Soup4Bonnie: Reason gonna Reason.

The report went on to note that "over 1,100 occupations are regulated in at least one State, but fewer than 60 are regulated in all 50 States" and that "States also have very different requirements for obtaining a license." The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety.

The Report

Conclusion
In many fields, occupational licensing plays an important role in protecting consumers and ensuring quality. Licensing can also encourage practitioners to invest in and maintain their skills.  These benefits are important to both consumers and licensed practitioners

These are all good points, but ya know, there's a reason we have the phrase, "this is why we can't have nice things."

Government regulates stuff, "Oh noooo, those jack-booted thugs are harming these scrappy entrepreneurs"

Government de-regulates stuff (and a disabled veteran with 12 foster children is injured) or (massive fraud occurs), "Oh nooooo, why did government let this happen"

And doctors and lawyers will line up to prevent changes in practice scope and they pull a lot of weight.

We (society, government) are human. Can't eliminate all risk. Criminals are gonna find the loopholes. Oil is gonna get poured on ducks. Scrappy entrepreneurs are gonna go bankrupt because of regulations. Finding the middle ground is hard.


So, Reason hates State's Rights?

I had this discussion witha Trumpy person who was mad his kid had to take a test to get licensed in another (blue) state. Woah there Mr. Conservative... Why are you trampling on state's rights? When New York needed nurses / doctors they temporarily suspended the rules for the duration of the emergency. However they are free to go and reinstate those rules as they see fit. That is, unless you're saying, the federal government should decide.

He said some nonsensical stuff and gave up. He couldn't invalidate it without invalidating his own argument.
 
2020-10-30 9:06:57 PM  

beezeltown: A to the muthafu**kin men. Arbitrary licensing is bad for small businesses and entrepreneurs and does nothing to help or protect consumers.


Until you realize that the US is huge and has different needs in different regions.  My teaching license is good in most states for a reason (high standards), but it is difficult to come into my state with a different license. Reciprocity exists...but CT has very high teaching license standards...and a high rate of literacy.
 
2020-10-30 9:23:06 PM  
You know who needs National Certification and Licensure? Police. Add to that professional education hours provided by certified third parties, and you might get the thugs out. So, you accidentally killed a man by kneeling on their neck for over 8 minutes? Hmm, let's see. Oh, here it is, you're no longer allowed to practice as a police officer. Good day!
 
2020-10-30 9:38:07 PM  

Soup4Bonnie: Reason gonna Reason.

The report went on to note that "over 1,100 occupations are regulated in at least one State, but fewer than 60 are regulated in all 50 States" and that "States also have very different requirements for obtaining a license." The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety.

The Report

Conclusion
In many fields, occupational licensing plays an important role in protecting consumers and ensuring quality. Licensing can also encourage practitioners to invest in and maintain their skills.  These benefits are important to both consumers and licensed practitioners


That's true, but there's no logic in having 50 licensing standards so that a nurse or school teacher cannot move to an adjacent state and obtain employment in his/her field. Though I am loathe to agree with anything out of the Pence camp, that makes life especially hard on military spouses otherwise known in some circles as dependopottamuses who totally don't deserve any alimony or pension benefits when traded in for a younger model after decades of relocating the entire family every three years.
 
2020-10-30 9:58:59 PM  

Bruscar: Soup4Bonnie: Reason gonna Reason.

The report went on to note that "over 1,100 occupations are regulated in at least one State, but fewer than 60 are regulated in all 50 States" and that "States also have very different requirements for obtaining a license." The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety.

The Report

Conclusion
In many fields, occupational licensing plays an important role in protecting consumers and ensuring quality. Licensing can also encourage practitioners to invest in and maintain their skills.  These benefits are important to both consumers and licensed practitioners

That's true, but there's no logic in having 50 licensing standards so that a nurse or school teacher cannot move to an adjacent state and obtain employment in his/her field. Though I am loathe to agree with anything out of the Pence camp, that makes life especially hard on military spouses otherwise known in some circles as dependopottamuses who totally don't deserve any alimony or pension benefits when traded in for a younger model after decades of relocating the entire family every three years.


nurses have the multistate compact agreement, they can easily move states. They just have to hold a license in their state of residence.
 
2020-10-30 10:55:56 PM  
Oh fine, let's check the scoreboard again.

Endorsements from neocons, war criminals, corporate lobbyists, kleptocrats, and now a LibertAryan propaganda outlet: totally copacetic! Biden is building a coalition!

Endorsement from douchebag podcaster: BERNIE IS CANCELED FOREVER.
 
2020-10-31 8:35:27 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: I'll respectfully disagree.

The reason why we have these rules and regulations is because a group of people will always be unscrupulous by taking more than they should because of the lack of ethics.

The barriers prevent unethical people from walking all over ethical or trusting people.


True until unethical people execute a monopoly capture using the barriers.  Licensing is a field where you need watchers watching the watchers watching the watchers.  Left alone, strong barriers always result in unethical people colluding to minimize certified personnel and marginalize new candidates.

Here is a real example.  A State requires 240 hours of classroom instruction, certification test, and 8000 hours of OTJ instruction for Journeyman's license.  Passing the test is not difficult, provided you can pay for the class hours and don't sleep through it.  Everyone thinks the idea of you put in your time and get your license is reasonable.  Do you know what happens?

Typical business owner hires 1 journeyman to visit job site occasionally and sign off on things, and 10 helpers to do the work.  Journeymen command a premium; helpers get paid minimum wage + travel stipend.   Most workers spend a decade in helper ghetto.

Here is how it happens.  For OTJ hours to count per the licensing board, you need to have a Journeyman on site and rotate workers through different roles.  Management--deliberately, it's the law after all--doesn't sign off on helper hours when their Journeyman are busy elsewhere.   The Journeymen are always busy elsewhere, because they are understaffed.  In addition, most companies are specialists.  They don't have roles to rotate people through.  A hand's 200th hour of doing the same thing doesn't count even if God is there to teach him.  What is designed to be a four year effort drags to ten or fifteen years unless the worker is talented, lucky, and smart enough to hop jobs between ethical companies.

Success also assumes there is work in that state. Project work is notorious for regional boom and bust cycles.  A couple fallow years during your first half decade puts you further behind.  Moving to another state usually means starting over in a different certification regime, so that's not an answer.

Journeymen support this unethical plan, because rarity keeps their premium up.   Businesses support it, because reducing costs > all.  Customers support it because they get stuff cheaper.  The people in charge of licensing support it because high standards--in theory--promote safety and quality.

The only people who don't support license capture are ethical people who want high quality work, and unethical posers who just want to put out a shingle.  They aren't likely allies.

/It's not just tradespeople. Engineering companies do the same thing
//Also software companies, where CCIE or other certs are required
///I am not anti-certification, but the reality is licenses need strong oversight to not be a bludgeon against workers
 
2020-10-31 10:29:23 AM  
We require land surveyors to be licensed because it causes hell when they make a mistake and put a public highway 33 feet off the mark, or allow houses to be built in a flood zone.  These are actual examples because even with goddam licensing the law allows anybody to do the actual work provided the person is "supervised" by a licensed surveyor.  There are expert surveyors who have a regular business appearing in court to settle monumental cockups like a high rise apartment building straddling a property line.
 
2020-10-31 6:38:13 PM  

Kazan: LadySusan: Soup4Bonnie: Reason gonna Reason.

The report went on to note that "over 1,100 occupations are regulated in at least one State, but fewer than 60 are regulated in all 50 States" and that "States also have very different requirements for obtaining a license." The obvious implication is that licensing rules are more often arbitrary bureaucratic hurdles than they are protections for health or safety.

The Report

Conclusion
In many fields, occupational licensing plays an important role in protecting consumers and ensuring quality. Licensing can also encourage practitioners to invest in and maintain their skills.  These benefits are important to both consumers and licensed practitioners

These are all good points, but ya know, there's a reason we have the phrase, "this is why we can't have nice things."

Government regulates stuff, "Oh noooo, those jack-booted thugs are harming these scrappy entrepreneurs"

Government de-regulates stuff (and a disabled veteran with 12 foster children is injured) or (massive fraud occurs), "Oh nooooo, why did government let this happen"

And doctors and lawyers will line up to prevent changes in practice scope and they pull a lot of weight.

We (society, government) are human. Can't eliminate all risk. Criminals are gonna find the loopholes. Oil is gonna get poured on ducks. Scrappy entrepreneurs are gonna go bankrupt because of regulations. Finding the middle ground is hard.

To be fair - consistent regulation from state to state is good, and sometimes some of those occupational regulations are just crap

Those of us who believe regulation is the appropriate answer to many issues should also make sure that we're fighting for good, effective, logically/scientifically-driven regulations.


Yup. It's finding that middle ground that's tough. Probably something like a national floor of regulation so people can move from state to state and still practice...and some time to meet a new state's rules while still able to practice. And probably a mix of experts, policy wonks, jurors, and dumb clay to decide the floor. And probably widely publicizing good/bad practices so consumers have a clue.
 
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