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(Independent)   Elon Musk declares that transport by SpaceX to Mars and the company's subsequent Martian settlements will not be subject to international law, reopening a debate on exactly who would be the authority on Mars   (independent.co.uk) divider line
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300 clicks; posted to STEM » on 30 Oct 2020 at 6:53 AM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-10-30 1:42:35 AM  
Elon, bubbele - you dumbass! You're not supposed to show your cards this early. First you get to Mars, then you declare independence from the flatheads on Earth.

Haven't you ever read any Kim Stanley Robinson or Ben Bova? Or is it all Ayn Rand, all the time for you?
 
2020-10-30 3:06:07 AM  
If you go to a country that has different laws to yours and do something that is illegal in your home country but legal in the one you are visiting there's still circumstances where you can be tried for it back home.

So even if he went to Mars, killed fellow adventurers then tortured children to harvest their tears when he gets back I'm sure he can still be arrested for it.

So... Might as well give up going to Mars now if that's his goal
 
2020-10-30 3:12:37 AM  
DIBS
 
2020-10-30 3:17:31 AM  

Slaxl: So even if he went to Mars, killed fellow adventurers then tortured children to harvest their tears when he gets back I'm sure he can still be arrested for it.


If he goes, I don't think he's planning on coming back.
 
2020-10-30 3:32:24 AM  
Mars is such a shiathole, and it will be made far worse by the presence of billionaires trying to found a libertarian utopia.
 
2020-10-30 3:58:54 AM  
Listen, Elon Musk invented the internet, so he deserves to move to Mars and to never return.  Amazon Prime Fresh is a little slow out there and it takes a week just to log on using Chrome.
 
2020-10-30 6:23:13 AM  
You can have it, Elon. There's no realistic way your colony exists before you die of old age.
 
2020-10-30 7:06:37 AM  

koder: Mars is such a shiathole, and it will be made far worse by the presence of billionaires trying to found a libertarian utopia.


Its not the kind of place to raise your kids.
 
2020-10-30 7:11:55 AM  

Slaxl: If you go to a country that has different laws to yours and do something that is illegal in your home country but legal in the one you are visiting there's still circumstances where you can be tried for it back home.



I don't think that's how that works... Otherwise Americans wouldn't have been so obsessed with visiting Amsterdam, and later Canada.  Or even the brothels in Nevada.

I'm not suggesting going up to the moon to eat people and come back to earth to restock - but international law isn't interplanetary law... yet.
 
2020-10-30 7:12:26 AM  
Might As Well Be On Mars
Youtube kFfDAAuCymE
 
2020-10-30 7:24:42 AM  

Slaxl: If you go to a country that has different laws to yours and do something that is illegal in your home country but legal in the one you are visiting there's still circumstances where you can be tried for it back home.

So even if he went to Mars, killed fellow adventurers then tortured children to harvest their tears when he gets back I'm sure he can still be arrested for it.

So... Might as well give up going to Mars now if that's his goal


Gets back...
From ...
Mars!?

How? By that time your bones would be candyfloss!! Earth would crush you to goo!!
 
2020-10-30 7:25:47 AM  
Yeaaaaah... That'll work until the first contingent of space force lands.
 
2020-10-30 7:31:39 AM  

makerofbadjokes: Slaxl: If you go to a country that has different laws to yours and do something that is illegal in your home country but legal in the one you are visiting there's still circumstances where you can be tried for it back home.


I don't think that's how that works... Otherwise Americans wouldn't have been so obsessed with visiting Amsterdam, and later Canada.  Or even the brothels in Nevada.

I'm not suggesting going up to the moon to eat people and come back to earth to restock - but international law isn't interplanetary law... yet.


Go to Thailand to Fark a kid, and they'll arrest you when you get back in the US and charge you with it.
 
2020-10-30 7:33:35 AM  
Babylon Bee is better than the farking New York Times. They called this months ago.

Fark user imageView Full Size


makerofbadjokes: Slaxl: If you go to a country that has different laws to yours and do something that is illegal in your home country but legal in the one you are visiting there's still circumstances where you can be tried for it back home.


I don't think that's how that works... Otherwise Americans wouldn't have been so obsessed with visiting Amsterdam, and later Canada.  Or even the brothels in Nevada.

I'm not suggesting going up to the moon to eat people and come back to earth to restock - but international law isn't interplanetary law... yet.


It kinda depends on the specific crime.
If you go overseas to smoke weed then you get a legal pass on return. If you become a mercenary, a spy, dodge taxes or commit financial crimes then there may be some stern looking gentlemen in nice suits waiting for you upon your return.
I think it depends more on specifically who you pissed off by committing the crime.  The ruling class pedo rings won't charge you for visiting a brothel to bang underage prostitutes, but they will charge you if you've screwed with their money.

/International law is a wibbly wobbly thing.
/space lawyer is an actual job that my career councilor forgot to mention.
 
2020-10-30 7:33:35 AM  

padraig: Yeaaaaah... That'll work until the first contingent of space force lands.


Sure.  Because the Air Forces daughter service is going to carry on theOr tradition of elite infantry.
 
2020-10-30 7:34:08 AM  
Their tradition, that is.
 
2020-10-30 7:37:35 AM  
Well that settles it, now I'm not going.

Musk loves having his name in the media so he says something provocative (AKA stupid) like this every month or so.
 
2020-10-30 7:48:07 AM  

Befuddled: Well that settles it, now I'm not going.

Musk loves having his name in the media so he says something provocative (AKA stupid) like this every month or so.


He does, and it works, but I think in this case there's been a lot of foreshadowing.

Why set up a colony on mars if you could build a new city on earth with whatever rules you wanted?  Because you can't, not really. Any earth side nation has to deal with the other hundred and eighty other nations to keep from being invaded or taken advantage of. They'll live under nuclear threats and the strong arming actions of their neighbors.

If you go to Mars then there are a lot of legal questions to answer about who has jurisdiction. We've already had incidents in space that raise the question, and all that's in place are a few tacit agreements between government space agencies.
It would make sense that Elon would leverage that for his colony and his present business. If little to no law exists then he would want to establish it.
Being the one that establishes a law for a land that is physically disconnected from earth by several months, that would be a damn good reason for paying the colonization bill.

So he slips that wording into his space internet policy, so it will have been sitting there for a decade before the question is raised in earnest. It gets him fluff pieces like this and it establishes a legal precedent that has yet to be overturned.
 
2020-10-30 7:53:35 AM  

koder: Mars is such a shiathole, and it will be made far worse by the presence of billionaires trying to found a libertarian utopia.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-10-30 8:12:57 AM  
I'm sure the company will take care of things.

pyxis.nymag.comView Full Size
 
2020-10-30 8:17:52 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

It's Ronny Cox...It's always Ronny Cox..He is the quintessential technocrat villain/a-hole..
 
2020-10-30 8:18:59 AM  
A Mars colony is a fool's errand.
 
2020-10-30 8:23:29 AM  

Clash City Farker: koder: Mars is such a shiathole, and it will be made far worse by the presence of billionaires trying to found a libertarian utopia.

Its not the kind of place to raise your kids.


How's the weather?
 
2020-10-30 8:25:10 AM  

dittybopper: makerofbadjokes: Slaxl: If you go to a country that has different laws to yours and do something that is illegal in your home country but legal in the one you are visiting there's still circumstances where you can be tried for it back home.


I don't think that's how that works... Otherwise Americans wouldn't have been so obsessed with visiting Amsterdam, and later Canada.  Or even the brothels in Nevada.

I'm not suggesting going up to the moon to eat people and come back to earth to restock - but international law isn't interplanetary law... yet.

Go to Thailand to Fark a kid, and they'll arrest you when you get back in the US and charge you with it.


It's a little weird that you know that.
 
2020-10-30 8:27:09 AM  
The real authority on Mars.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-10-30 8:45:47 AM  
It should be governed by the people who live there. With no victimless crimes
 
2020-10-30 8:46:36 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size

Do you want Mars Rapture? Because that is how you get Mars Rapture.
 
2020-10-30 8:49:16 AM  

scanman61: Clash City Farker: koder: Mars is such a shiathole, and it will be made far worse by the presence of billionaires trying to found a libertarian utopia.

Its not the kind of place to raise your kids.

How's the weather?


In fact, it's cold as hell.
 
2020-10-30 9:01:30 AM  

dittybopper: padraig: Yeaaaaah... That'll work until the first contingent of space force lands.

Sure.  Because the Air Forces daughter service is going to carry on theOr tradition of elite infantry.


Who else is going to do it?

The Space Force's first proper deployment was to the middle east because it turns out their job still involves securing surface based equipment involved in the defense of space.  So that means somewhere inside of the Space Force there is going to be a gun toting contingent of storm troopers. If the space force ends up training military pilots then I don't see why they wouldn't train "Elite" guards for zero-g duties.

I think the question is more like whether you use infantry to take a space based operation or just threaten them with missiles, making the guards more of an ornament than an actual "need" need.
 
2020-10-30 9:08:20 AM  
The martian Piratescene
Youtube ZhzLRS-Yzlk
 
2020-10-30 10:01:20 AM  
OK, sure. Let every Libertarian load up on Mars to go live out their rugged-individualist, Hobbsian-Nightmare fantasies, and the rest of us can get on with the business of perpetuating functional societies. I see no problems.
 
2020-10-30 10:29:49 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-10-30 10:32:57 AM  

bostonguy: dittybopper: makerofbadjokes: Slaxl: If you go to a country that has different laws to yours and do something that is illegal in your home country but legal in the one you are visiting there's still circumstances where you can be tried for it back home.


I don't think that's how that works... Otherwise Americans wouldn't have been so obsessed with visiting Amsterdam, and later Canada.  Or even the brothels in Nevada.

I'm not suggesting going up to the moon to eat people and come back to earth to restock - but international law isn't interplanetary law... yet.

Go to Thailand to Fark a kid, and they'll arrest you when you get back in the US and charge you with it.

It's a little weird that you know that.


No, it's not.  We've discussed it on Fark before.

https://www.fark.com/comments/5354154​/​Apparently-in-America-you-can-be-arres​ted-for-something-you-did-in-another-c​ountry-even-if-its-not-illegal-in-that​-country
 
2020-10-30 10:38:19 AM  

Mr. Shabooboo: [Fark user image 266x149]
It's Ronny Cox...It's always Ronny Cox..He is the quintessential technocrat villain/a-hole..


Dueling Banjos - Deliverance (1972) Full Screen, HD
Youtube 5s73flj1t38


Maybe, but at least he can play guitar.
 
2020-10-30 10:44:25 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-10-30 10:49:35 AM  
Elon Musk didn't kill himself.

/too early?
 
2020-10-30 10:51:03 AM  
Its all fine and games until some other nation invokes maritime law, declares your unflagged spaceship a pirate vessel, and shoots it out of the sky.
 
2020-10-30 11:33:40 AM  

Mr. Shabooboo: [Fark user image 266x149]
It's Ronny Cox...It's always Ronny Cox..He is the quintessential technocrat villain/a-hole..


At least Kinsey got what he had coming.
 
2020-10-30 11:35:11 AM  

bostonguy: The real authority on Mars.

[Fark user image 850x478]


Fun fact - She starred on a short-lived Sci Fi show called 'Space Rangers'.  One episode had Claudia Christian as a guest star.
 
2020-10-30 11:50:36 AM  

sid244: [Fark user image 300x168]


Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-10-30 12:00:09 PM  
They may (may) be subject to certain laws, but enforcement without being there would be difficult.
 
2020-10-30 12:11:59 PM  

way south: dittybopper: padraig: Yeaaaaah... That'll work until the first contingent of space force lands.

Sure.  Because the Air Forces daughter service is going to carry on theOr tradition of elite infantry.

Who else is going to do it?

The Space Force's first proper deployment was to the middle east because it turns out their job still involves securing surface based equipment involved in the defense of space.  So that means somewhere inside of the Space Force there is going to be a gun toting contingent of storm troopers. If the space force ends up training military pilots then I don't see why they wouldn't train "Elite" guards for zero-g duties.

I think the question is more like whether you use infantry to take a space based operation or just threaten them with missiles, making the guards more of an ornament than an actual "need" need.


What makes you think someone like Elon Musk couldn't have a significant quasi-military force himself?

Dude knows how to build large and reliable rockets. A missile is just a rocket with a warhead..

And he knows how to get people to follow him.   He's got all manner of fanbois.   Some of that will translate into people willing to both follow him to Mars, and to help protect him and themselves from outside invasion when they get there.

But I think you're looking at it the wrong way.  You don't need to us military force at Mars.   Simply embargo ships heading to Mars.   For a *LONG* time, Mars won't be self-sufficient.  It will take a lot of time to get everything you need to effectively cut yourself off from Earth, and we can effectively prevent any Marian colony from getting too big for its britches by cutting off (or threatening to cut off) supplies going from Earth to Mars.

The only real counter to that is that they put people on those supply ships, so you can't just shoot them out of the sky (or in space as the case may be).  But unless they're launching from some secret dormant volcano launch site, Earth authorities can prevent that.
 
2020-10-30 12:12:59 PM  

mjbok: They may (may) be subject to certain laws, but enforcement without being there would be difficult.


Nah.  Just embargo supplies until they comply.

Kind of like a Martian Missile Crisis.
 
2020-10-30 1:03:58 PM  

dittybopper: way south: dittybopper: padraig: Yeaaaaah... That'll work until the first contingent of space force lands.

Sure.  Because the Air Forces daughter service is going to carry on theOr tradition of elite infantry.

Who else is going to do it?

The Space Force's first proper deployment was to the middle east because it turns out their job still involves securing surface based equipment involved in the defense of space.  So that means somewhere inside of the Space Force there is going to be a gun toting contingent of storm troopers. If the space force ends up training military pilots then I don't see why they wouldn't train "Elite" guards for zero-g duties.

I think the question is more like whether you use infantry to take a space based operation or just threaten them with missiles, making the guards more of an ornament than an actual "need" need.

What makes you think someone like Elon Musk couldn't have a significant quasi-military force himself?

Dude knows how to build large and reliable rockets. A missile is just a rocket with a warhead..

And he knows how to get people to follow him.   He's got all manner of fanbois.   Some of that will translate into people willing to both follow him to Mars, and to help protect him and themselves from outside invasion when they get there.

But I think you're looking at it the wrong way.  You don't need to us military force at Mars.   Simply embargo ships heading to Mars.   For a *LONG* time, Mars won't be self-sufficient.  It will take a lot of time to get everything you need to effectively cut yourself off from Earth, and we can effectively prevent any Marian colony from getting too big for its britches by cutting off (or threatening to cut off) supplies going from Earth to Mars.

The only real counter to that is that they put people on those supply ships, so you can't just shoot them out of the sky (or in space as the case may be).  But unless they're launching from some secret dormant volcano launch site, Earth authorities ca ...


Who are the "Earth authorities"?
You've said yourself that Elon is a capable man with many fans, which means he can probably find international support.  The rocket technology he is using is proprietary to SpaceX, not any one government. Many others may assist his colonization effort to get dibs on the plans and operation secrets for such equipment (or whatever else may be developed along the way).

Say Elon takes his show to someplace like Russia or China, who have not signed the Artemis accords and who would be willing to thumb their nose at any US claim to be the singular space authority (if only to piss us off or gain back door access to our space-internet infrastructure) and who is more than capable of duplicating starships design.  Does the US shoot at a foreign nations space port to unilaterally enforce a martial blockade?

Maybe China wants its own authority over mars, but if there is a dispute then Elon can easily play one nation against another to keep his supply lines open.
We would have to agree as a unified planet that a free mars is bad, but good luck reaching that consensus before mars reaches autonomy
...Which its economically driven to do, if not ideologically driven since they know this is coming before the first brick has been laid on the martial capital. They're going to land on day one with a plan for becoming fully self sufficient as quickly as possible.

I think it doesn't change the fact that as our space efforts grow then there will be a demand for manhandling that will grow with it. Say you actually do decide to capture someone's space port, can you do that with marines who've only been trained for terrestrial duty?
You need someone smart enough to operate a space ship, strong enough to fold a human pretzel, and loyal enough that they don't get delusions of grandeur once they're outside of real time communication range.
 
2020-10-30 1:35:26 PM  
Well, it's an interesting conundrum.

Musk going to China or Russia doesn't seem likely.  He's not stupid, after all, and neither are they.  China might seem likely because Musk still has significant business dealings with China through Tesla, but I'm sure he's aware of the issues with going full China.

More likely it would be a smaller country looking for the prestige of spaceflight but unable to do it on their own.

But then you've got the problem that you can embargo that nation on Earth.

In short, I don't think it's a real issue until any future Mars colony is self-sufficient, because until that happens you can effectively limit enforcement actions to Earth and the vicinity.
 
2020-10-30 3:15:13 PM  

bostonguy: dittybopper: makerofbadjokes: Slaxl: If you go to a country that has different laws to yours and do something that is illegal in your home country but legal in the one you are visiting there's still circumstances where you can be tried for it back home.


I don't think that's how that works... Otherwise Americans wouldn't have been so obsessed with visiting Amsterdam, and later Canada.  Or even the brothels in Nevada.

I'm not suggesting going up to the moon to eat people and come back to earth to restock - but international law isn't interplanetary law... yet.

Go to Thailand to Fark a kid, and they'll arrest you when you get back in the US and charge you with it.

It's a little weird that you know that.


Been in the news for years. Mellencamp's drummer was arrested just for that in the US like 15 years ago. If you don't know, you probably aren't from Indiana
 
2020-10-30 3:21:29 PM  

way south: dittybopper: padraig: Yeaaaaah... That'll work until the first contingent of space force lands.

Sure.  Because the Air Forces daughter service is going to carry on theOr tradition of elite infantry.

Who else is going to do it?

The Space Force's first proper deployment was to the middle east because it turns out their job still involves securing surface based equipment involved in the defense of space.  So that means somewhere inside of the Space Force there is going to be a gun toting contingent of storm troopers. If the space force ends up training military pilots then I don't see why they wouldn't train "Elite" guards for zero-g duties.

I think the question is more like whether you use infantry to take a space based operation or just threaten them with missiles, making the guards more of an ornament than an actual "need" need.


Space Force says they aren't going to have people in space during the careers of anyone currently enlisted. It is inevitable but everything they do is AI and robotics focused.
 
2020-10-30 3:27:33 PM  
BTW this points to the real danger for anyone attempting offworld colonization. Not subject to a the laws of a recognized nation is by definition piracy. Anyone is permitted to take action against pirates.

By tipping his hand so soon he just made it possible for any nation to shoot down his rockets to Mars with no legal repercussions. Neither Russia nor China will find his plan acceptable.

Before I was guessing about a 30% chance of someone taking a shot at the rockets with people. Now I put it at about 50/50.
 
2020-10-30 3:37:09 PM  

dittybopper: Well, it's an interesting conundrum.

Musk going to China or Russia doesn't seem likely.  He's not stupid, after all, and neither are they.  China might seem likely because Musk still has significant business dealings with China through Tesla, but I'm sure he's aware of the issues with going full China.

More likely it would be a smaller country looking for the prestige of spaceflight but unable to do it on their own.

But then you've got the problem that you can embargo that nation on Earth.

In short, I don't think it's a real issue until any future Mars colony is self-sufficient, because until that happens you can effectively limit enforcement actions to Earth and the vicinity.


We've been trying to embargo the likes of Iran and North Korea for decades. How well has that gone?
At best we can claim mixed results. The little guys still manage to squeak quite a bit of material through the blockades because there's no central authority to organize against them.
That is before Elon shows up with a rocket you can build from scrap metal and fuel with methane. That's before the possibility of getting yourself some military grade technology or contraband shipped directly from space.
It would be like trying to embargo a railroad baron. Plenty of large and small powers are willing to deal.

I think we may be repeating the mistakes made by the British in the colonization of the Americas. We assume Mars is going to be a charity case when its already laying the legal groundwork to protect its first income source.   It plans to pay for its own expansion while we plan on gaining space resources for increasing needs back home.

If every thought of their centralized planetary government is on how to become self sufficient then it may be a mistake to assume they're the ones depending on us.   We are the ones with a disorganized planet. We are the ones with a growing need.

What happens if they decide to cut us off?
 
2020-10-30 4:00:30 PM  

BolloxReader: Space Force says they aren't going to have people in space during the careers of anyone currently enlisted. It is inevitable but everything they do is AI and robotics focused.


Space Force personnel can currently go to space the same way any other branch's members can, by being selected as NASA astronauts.
Keep in mind tho that Space Force is who's running NASA's tracking range, debris management radars, and rescue missions. It's personnel will learn quite a bit about the high frontier and gain all the security clearances needed to manage the equipment that's out there. Space Force is likely to take on the satellite decommissioning role that Shotwell is trying to pitch Starship for.

If I was to gamble where the shortest path to orbit will start, when the military actually decides to fly its own people, I'd put good money on the Space Force.
I think its more of a question on when they will make that decision.
 
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