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(Imgur)   Ask Culture v Guess Culture. A concept about effective communication from the inter tubes. Did you know about this?   (imgur.com) divider line
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381 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 28 Oct 2020 at 2:42 AM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-10-27 10:23:44 PM  
Facinating and informative, and am I ever a slow learning dumbass
 
2020-10-27 10:28:20 PM  
Yo tambien, ya tozhe, moi aussi.
 
2020-10-27 11:24:21 PM  
That was... actually enlightening.  Especially considering it came from imgur...  so I traced it back to this 2010 Atlantic article: https://www.theatlantic.com/​national/a​rchive/2010/05/askers-vs-guessers/3408​91/

... which in turn points to the original Metafilter article from 2007: https://ask.metafilter.com/5515​3/Whats​-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welc​ome#830421.  Which is where the pictures on the (undated?) imgur post came from.

So, yeah, interesting... but... not exactly news...
 
2020-10-28 2:56:10 AM  

sennoma: That was... actually enlightening.  Especially considering it came from imgur...  so I traced it back to this 2010 Atlantic article: https://www.theatlantic.com/n​ational/archive/2010/05/askers-vs-gues​sers/340891/

... which in turn points to the original Metafilter article from 2007: https://ask.metafilter.com/55153​/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-an​d-Welcome#830421.  Which is where the pictures on the (undated?) imgur post came from.

So, yeah, interesting... but... not exactly news...


Good thing it wasn't posted to the News tab.
 
2020-10-28 4:24:17 AM  
I live in a homogenous country full of Guess culture, so much so that they have a phrase, "reading the air", to explain life here to outsiders. I'm an Ask Culture person, and have had to try to adapt (but it's hard as an outsider without the nose for much of the subtlety). The wife and I used to have lots of fights stemming from these differences. I've done my best to learn and they've become less frequent over time, but sadly she seems incapable (or unwilling) to try to meet me halfway. Now we fight more about that lack of compromise than from the actual misunderstandings.
 
2020-10-28 5:34:32 AM  
They didn't mention Tell Culture.
As in: Hi. No.
 
2020-10-28 6:57:17 AM  
This seems related to the proverb "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/it%27s​_​better_to_ask_forgiveness_than_permiss​ion

which seems to come from Adm. Grace Hopper in regards to technology (software) development.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_H​o​pper

which is about how it is better to present upper management a fait accomple than to approve your idea to work on it.

I've known people whose whole life is like this. They do things they should have gotten permission for and only apologize when they often screw up.
 
2020-10-28 7:53:48 AM  

HairBolus: This seems related to the proverb "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/it%27s_​better_to_ask_forgiveness_than_permiss​ion

which seems to come from Adm. Grace Hopper in regards to technology (software) development.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Ho​pper

which is about how it is better to present upper management a fait accomple than to approve your idea to work on it.

I've known people whose whole life is like this. They do things they should have gotten permission for and only apologize when they often screw up.


And they are awful people
 
2020-10-28 10:09:12 AM  
VERY WORTH A READ. I ran across this a few years ago and it still comes up to explain what thing my wife is doing that is driving me crazy. Her mom is very on the guess side and I didn't for the longest time understand why they react the way they did, although my MIL is much worse about it. They don't like to say no and kind of expect not to ask, but only certain thongs or times. It is so frustrating and used to cause huge arguments with my wife that ended with me being very angry that she didn't just say how she felt or ask what she wanted because I assumed, like an idiot, she would just say what she was feeling/thinking/wanted. We got in periodic large (like near relationship ruining) fights that ended with me once again asking for more communication to prevent the problem/argument. Understanding this ask/guess culture this has helped us both a lot. Seriously, it was incredibly helpful.
No joke I think this is how my mother in law's last marriage ended. Looking back after reading this originally a few years ago I see that that guy was having similar, if not worse, problems than I had and did not want to stay to work it out.
And for farks sake try to be an asker. The guess culture is not great for communication, and an asker going into a guess house just sucks for the asker. My mother in law is worse and getting a weird look for asking a question is dumb, and (back to the MIL divorce part) saying yes even though you wanted to say no then complaining later is going to drive people farking nuts. It pays to be upfront and clear with your thoughts and feelings.
 
2020-10-28 10:17:09 AM  
I tried to read it, but this modern internet bullshiat about embiggening simple text into image files just became too much for me. You're needlessly making the world worse for people with severe vision limitations. Annoying a jerk like me probably has some appeal, but there are plenty of better ways of doing that if you must.
 
2020-10-28 10:54:46 AM  
Won't lie, I saw pictures of text and closed the link.
 
2020-10-28 11:39:52 AM  

OccamsWhiskers: I tried to read it, but this modern internet bullshiat about embiggening simple text into image files just became too much for me. You're needlessly making the world worse for people with severe vision limitations. Annoying a jerk like me probably has some appeal, but there are plenty of better ways of doing that if you must.


Seriously. I don't have vision issues, but I am in a phone and pictures like that often aren't formatted to be read in a phone without a lot of scrolling in both directions. It's text! Just use text!
 
2020-10-28 11:43:13 AM  

HairBolus: This seems related to the proverb "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission"
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/it%27s_​better_to_ask_forgiveness_than_permiss​ion

which seems to come from Adm. Grace Hopper in regards to technology (software) development.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Grace_Ho​pper

which is about how it is better to present upper management a fait accomple than to approve your idea to work on it.

I've known people whose whole life is like this. They do things they should have gotten permission for and only apologize when they often screw up.


It's an old Navy saying, BUT it doesn't mean "Screw everything up big time and beg forgiveness later." It means: sometimes you there's something small, stupid and insignificant but you want to do it, and you know your jerk boss will probably say no. It's no big deal, you know it and everyone knows it. Just do it, and beg forgiveness later, because it's such small-potatoes that it's no big deal.
Like stopping during a trip to get something to eat at a burger joint. You may not be able to, but it's not going to be that big of a deal. Not like say, taking some weapons and going to the range without permission.
 
2020-10-28 11:46:15 AM  
Ayep.  I grew up bicultural, so I know the difference between "we'd love to have you over" and "come over tomorrow", or "it's no trouble at all" vs "I'm glad to help."  As a rule I'm in favor of frankness rather than bullshiat and hypocrisy, though with strangers, politeness is the foundation of diplomacy (defined as, telling someone to go to hell in such a manner that they look forward to the journey).  From time to time, when I meet a guesser, I'll take them at their word -- to teach them a lesson well worth a cheese, as Renard once said.

I also know someone who's an extreme asker.  More like demander.  "Can you help me with this one easy thing?  Great. While you're here, why don't you... and .... and ... and..."  It's always urgent of course, she never has time to do anything for herself, but always has time to argue that *you* don't have anything more important to do.  When dealing with somebody like that, there are two approaches:  1) an ironclad "I will be available for exactly this much time" with any attempt at renegotiation met with stony silence, or 2) a preemptive "sorry, I'm washing my hair that day."
 
2020-10-28 12:51:21 PM  
Upon further thought, I don't think this is as simple as askers vs guessers. It's more of a spectrum. Some people are way on the asking end and will happily directly ask for even the most outrageous things. Some people are at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, and will never directly ask for or say no to anything.

Most people are somewhere in the middle and will be direct in some circumstances and more circumspect in others. Some people tend to be more direct in general or more indirect in general, but most people do some of both. Problems arise when one person thinks the situation is appropriate for Asking and the other thinks Guessing is called for. Then you get two people talking past each other or one assuming they're expected to say yes when the other is fine with a no.

It's definitely still useful to identify this dynamic so you can better recognise when there's a discrepancy, but the reason it feels like too easy and simple of a model is because it is.
 
2020-10-28 1:22:46 PM  

Lunakki: Upon further thought, I don't think this is as simple as askers vs guessers. It's more of a spectrum. Some people are way on the asking end and will happily directly ask for even the most outrageous things. Some people are at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, and will never directly ask for or say no to anything.

Most people are somewhere in the middle and will be direct in some circumstances and more circumspect in others. Some people tend to be more direct in general or more indirect in general, but most people do some of both. Problems arise when one person thinks the situation is appropriate for Asking and the other thinks Guessing is called for. Then you get two people talking past each other or one assuming they're expected to say yes when the other is fine with a no.

It's definitely still useful to identify this dynamic so you can better recognise when there's a discrepancy, but the reason it feels like too easy and simple of a model is because it is.


Three words: No. shiat. Sherlock.
 
2020-10-28 2:07:41 PM  
Interesting discussion on the 3rd or 4th worst possible way of having/sharing it; images of text.  I guess they could have made it worse by making it in Braille (useful for people who can read Braille only) or making it scent or taste based.
 
2020-10-28 3:23:13 PM  

OccamsWhiskers: I tried to read it, but this modern internet bullshiat about embiggening simple text into image files just became too much for me. You're needlessly making the world worse for people with severe vision limitations. Annoying a jerk like me probably has some appeal, but there are plenty of better ways of doing that if you must.


Right there with you. This makes me want to hurt someone.
 
Pew
2020-10-29 10:18:25 AM  

sennoma: That was... actually enlightening.  Especially considering it came from imgur...  so I traced it back to this 2010 Atlantic article: https://www.theatlantic.com/n​ational/archive/2010/05/askers-vs-gues​sers/340891/


I wish I'd read this pithy article instead of the imgur slog.
 
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