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4295 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Oct 2020 at 5:35 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-10-27 4:22:28 PM  
FTFA: "Tyler bemoaned the fact the police did not use another tactic to deescalate the situation."

I bemoan the fact that anyone can get a job writing news copy these days.
 
2020-10-27 5:37:04 PM  
Cable went out?
 
2020-10-27 5:37:53 PM  
"Wallace, 27, was a father and had a twin."

Better shoot him too. Just in case.
 
2020-10-27 5:38:18 PM  

a particular individual: FTFA: "Tyler bemoaned the fact the police did not use another tactic to deescalate the situation."

I bemoan the fact that anyone can get a job writing news copy these days.


Reckless phrasing. It's a slippery slope from bemoaning to lamenting. Then the next thing you know people are clamoring, and we all know the police hate that.
 
2020-10-27 5:57:30 PM  
FTFA: "[P]olice officers shot and killed Walter Wallace Jr., as he approached officers while wielding a knife."

Hate to bash a grieving parent but Walter Wallace Sr. shoulda learned some damned sense into Jr.
 
2020-10-27 6:00:17 PM  

a particular individual: FTFA: "Tyler bemoaned the fact the police did not use another tactic to deescalate the situation."

I bemoan the fact that anyone can get a job writing news copy these days.


I think the entire paragraph is worth reproducing:

"According to reports, police officers shot and killed Walter Wallace Jr., as he approached officers while wielding a knife. Video of the incident circulated online. Tyler bemoaned the fact the police did not use another tactic to deescalate the situation."

Reverend Tyler's bemoaning did not, apparently, include any bright ideas on how best to deescalate a situation where someone armed with a knife is advancing toward a couple of cops.
 
2020-10-27 6:08:06 PM  
Original video and analysis.


Philadelphia Police Shooting - Police Video Breakdown
Youtube B5bzDF_aF4c


The cops retreated a ton before finally opening fire.

This is what happens when you literally chase the cops down with a knife.
 
2020-10-27 6:14:53 PM  
 
2020-10-27 6:23:15 PM  
 His father, Walter Wallace Sr., said that his son was struggling with mental health issues.

you can say how horrible the places were.
but if there was a place they could lock crazy up,
he would still be alive
 
2020-10-27 6:27:09 PM  
They pull a knife.
You have hand to hand combat training, body armor, a stun gun, a beating stick, but you use the killing gun, it's the chicken shiat way.
 
2020-10-27 6:30:08 PM  
My answer was "a dick".

I was right.
 
2020-10-27 6:42:42 PM  

PvtStash: They pull a knife.
You have hand to hand combat training, body armor, a stun gun, a beating stick, but you use the killing gun, it's the chicken shiat way.


If they had just tasered him they would not have had some kind of reason to shoot him. So, shoot first and second-guess later seems to be their reasoning.
 
2020-10-27 6:48:34 PM  

BigNumber12: Original video and analysis.


[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/B5bzDF_a​F4c]

The cops retreated a ton before finally opening fire.

This is what happens when you literally chase the cops down with a knife.


Actually, this is what happens when criminals feel emboldened because they know if the cops do anything to resist their crimes then a community will riot and burn down the city for them.
 
2020-10-27 6:55:05 PM  

RussianPotato: BigNumber12: Original video and analysis.


[Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/B5bzDF_a​F4c]

The cops retreated a ton before finally opening fire.

This is what happens when you literally chase the cops down with a knife.

Actually, this is what happens when criminals feel emboldened because they know if the cops do anything to resist their crimes then a community will riot and burn down the city for them.


That as well.
 
2020-10-27 6:55:09 PM  
Why are cops the ones who show up to deal with mentally ill people?

When all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. They are taught not to deescalate, but to shoot.
This is why "defunding" is necessary, as in shifting some of the money from police budgets use to but tanks and other unneeded shat and pay some mental health professionals that specialize in dealing with people having episodes.

No one should have to die in the street just because they are mentally ill.
 
2020-10-27 7:08:07 PM  

Kirablue42: so they have hold techniques.


You first.  You go and disarm a knife wielding maniac who's advancing on you and then subdue them.

/the stupid shiat hollywood teaches people
 
2020-10-27 7:09:57 PM  

rewind2846: Why are cops the ones who show up to deal with mentally ill people?

When all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. They are taught not to deescalate, but to shoot.
This is why "defunding" is necessary, as in shifting some of the money from police budgets use to but tanks and other unneeded shat and pay some mental health professionals that specialize in dealing with people having episodes.

No one should have to die in the street just because they are mentally ill.


There have definitely been many terrible instances of cops overreacting to non-dangerous people having a mental health crisis.  That's tragic.  But who do you think should show up to a mad man with a knife who is attacking people?  That's what the police are for.
 
2020-10-27 7:11:37 PM  
For everyone wondering why they didn't tase him, this may have something to do with it:

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/27/729922​9​75/despite-widespread-use-police-rate-​tasers-as-less-effective-than-believed​
 
2020-10-27 8:29:12 PM  

rewind2846: Why are cops the ones who show up to deal with mentally ill people?


In this case, it appears to have been because the deceased's family summoned them.

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/​l​ocal/walter-wallace-jr-struggled-with-​mental-health-issues-family-says/25754​93/

"He said his cousin was having a mental breakdown Monday when a family member called police."
 
2020-10-27 8:44:23 PM  
Expected to see the mayor and a news anchor in an unprofessional relationship- surprised.
 
2020-10-27 9:14:10 PM  
$20 says if a white person runs at police wielding a knife they get shot too.  Maybe we just let this one go.
 
2020-10-27 11:41:36 PM  

tirob: a particular individual: FTFA: "Tyler bemoaned the fact the police did not use another tactic to deescalate the situation."

I bemoan the fact that anyone can get a job writing news copy these days.

I think the entire paragraph is worth reproducing:

"According to reports, police officers shot and killed Walter Wallace Jr., as he approached officers while wielding a knife. Video of the incident circulated online. Tyler bemoaned the fact the police did not use another tactic to deescalate the situation."

Reverend Tyler's bemoaning did not, apparently, include any bright ideas on how best to deescalate a situation where someone armed with a knife is advancing toward a couple of cops.


That's the appropriate time to taze.
 
2020-10-27 11:51:58 PM  

TheWhoppah: FTFA: "[P]olice officers shot and killed Walter Wallace Jr., as he approached officers while wielding a knife."

Hate to bash a grieving parent but Walter Wallace Sr. shoulda learned some damned sense into Jr.


Everyone's an expert and mental illness ain't a thing. Got it.
 
2020-10-28 12:42:27 AM  

rewind2846: They are taught not to deescalate, but to shoot.


That's the opposite of the truth. Of course cops are taught to deescalate when possible and they do it all the time. But when a person is acting aggressively and is armed with a lethal weapon, it's difficult to even attempt to deescalate.

Watch the video posted by BigNumber12 and tell me how the cops could have deescalated that guys behavior.
 
2020-10-28 12:54:10 AM  

rewind2846: Why are cops the ones who show up to deal with mentally ill people?

When all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail. They are taught not to deescalate, but to shoot.
This is why "defunding" is necessary, as in shifting some of the money from police budgets use to but tanks and other unneeded shat and pay some mental health professionals that specialize in dealing with people having episodes.

No one should have to die in the street just because they are mentally ill.


And who's going to decide whether or not it's mental illness, the 911 caller? Or will you just automatically dispatch mental health workers first? No way that would end badly.
 
2020-10-28 1:52:44 AM  

CruiserTwelve: cops are taught to deescalate when possible and they do it all the time


But when they violate that training, and some guy gets shot 47 times for brandishing his wallet, well... nobody's perfect. And cops aren't perfect EVERY F*CKING DAY.
 
2020-10-28 3:16:41 AM  

PvtStash: They pull a knife.
You have hand to hand combat training, body armor, a stun gun, a beating stick, but you use the killing gun, it's the chicken shiat way.


According to every self-defense trainer I ever heard about or read about no one with any kind of sense goes into close combat with someone with a knife.

One should always run in those occassions. But pokice don't get that option because when someone is coming at them with a knife and they run, then there is still someone dangerous with a knife in public.
 
2020-10-28 4:29:45 AM  

a particular individual: And cops aren't perfect EVERY F*CKING DAY.


Yet you have to reach back 21 years for an example.
 
2020-10-28 7:08:50 AM  

RedVentrue: tirob: a particular individual: FTFA: "Tyler bemoaned the fact the police did not use another tactic to deescalate the situation."

I bemoan the fact that anyone can get a job writing news copy these days.

I think the entire paragraph is worth reproducing:

"According to reports, police officers shot and killed Walter Wallace Jr., as he approached officers while wielding a knife. Video of the incident circulated online. Tyler bemoaned the fact the police did not use another tactic to deescalate the situation."

Reverend Tyler's bemoaning did not, apparently, include any bright ideas on how best to deescalate a situation where someone armed with a knife is advancing toward a couple of cops.

That's the appropriate time to taze.


Maybe. Like Reverend Tyler, I wasn't on the scene, my only knowledge of the case comes from the video I saw and the news reports about it (one of which I've linked here), and I don't know what the cops knew or what they had been told. So I'd be speculating if I said that this or that amount of force was too little or too much.
 
2020-10-28 8:46:58 AM  

jjorsett: And who's going to decide whether or not it's mental illness, the 911 caller? Or will you just automatically dispatch mental health workers first?


Someone calls about a person having a mental episode, send cops and mental health experts. The mental health experts would then make the evaluation at the scene and figure out what should be done next. That's their job. The cops then follow their lead.

Was that truly difficult?
 
2020-10-28 9:39:41 AM  

rewind2846: jjorsett: And who's going to decide whether or not it's mental illness, the 911 caller? Or will you just automatically dispatch mental health workers first?

Someone calls about a person having a mental episode, send cops and mental health experts. The mental health experts would then make the evaluation at the scene and figure out what should be done next. That's their job. The cops then follow their lead.


What if the person who is having the mental health episode is armed, as was the case here?  Sounds to me as if your idea, if it's ever put into practice, is likely to get a bunch of mental health experts and innocent bystanders killed or seriously injured.
 
2020-10-28 9:45:48 AM  

tirob: Sounds to me as if your idea, if it's ever put into practice, is likely to get a bunch of mental health experts and innocent bystanders killed or seriously injured.


You don't think that mental health experts have ever had to deal with armed/dangerous patients?
Ask one. They will educate you. This is what they do.
 
2020-10-28 9:46:42 AM  
Killing someone is rarely a sane decision.  Conversly, most killers are having a mental episode.  That doesn't make them any less dangerous.  When Atticus put down the rabid dog, it wasn't really a question of whether the dog DESERVED to be shot, it was a question of safety of the community.  Sometimes, a criminally insane person needs to be removed from the community by whatever means are necessary.
 
2020-10-28 9:54:54 AM  

rewind2846: tirob: Sounds to me as if your idea, if it's ever put into practice, is likely to get a bunch of mental health experts and innocent bystanders killed or seriously injured.

You don't think that mental health experts have ever had to deal with armed/dangerous patients?
Ask one. They will educate you. This is what they do.


All kinds of medical professionals do that.  But I don't see why we need to make them act as infantry while the cops play artillery, as you appear to suggest that we do, this on top of their usual responsibilities.
 
2020-10-28 11:21:37 AM  

tirob: All kinds of medical professionals do that.  But I don't see why we need to make them act as infantry while the cops play artillery, as you appear to suggest that we do, this on top of their usual responsibilities.


Dealing with mentally ill people IS their usual responsibility. Consider also that what is more likely to make the situation worse in the already disturbed mind of someone having an episode - a bunch of cops in riot gear with guns pointed at them, or someone talking to them as they have been trained to do to calm the situation with cops out of sight but ready to assist?

Now if the professional is attacked, then it is the cops duty to protect them, just as any other citizen. The point is that the shooting and killing should come as a last resort, and cops are not psychiatrists. What they have when dealing with mentally fractured people is what they are issued, and that is offensive weapons.

Shooting comes last. Not instead of, not as an alternative, but LAST. Think.
 
2020-10-28 11:39:47 AM  

rewind2846: Dealing with mentally ill people IS their usual responsibility.


It is *not* the usual responsibility of mental health professionals to deal with *armed* mentally ill people, although they sometimes are forced to do so because of circumstances outside their control.

If we put your idea into practice, we'd be sending unarmed people to deal face to face with mentally unstable armed people.  It doesn't take a crystal ball to see that that would be a recipe for disaster.

rewind2846: Consider also that what is more likely to make the situation worse in the already disturbed mind of someone having an episode - a bunch of cops in riot gear with guns pointed at them, or someone talking to them as they have been trained to do to calm the situation with cops out of sight but ready to assist?


I would guess that it would depend on the situation.  In this case, there was an armed man having an episode in front of numerous bystanders in a narrow street.  For all anyone knew, the deceased could have lashed out at any of the bystanders and killed or seriously injured one or more of them.  And given the narrowness of the street, I don't see how the cops could have remained out of sight here.

rewind2846: The point is that the shooting and killing should come as a last resort, and cops are not psychiatrists. What they have when dealing with mentally fractured people is what they are issued, and that is offensive weapons.

Shooting comes last. Not instead of, not as an alternative, but LAST. Think.


I think we all agree on this.  The question in this case is whether the cops had exhausted all other alternatives, and I don't think we can judge that yet from the evidence that has been made public to this point.
 
2020-10-28 12:10:31 PM  

tirob: If we put your idea into practice, we'd be sending unarmed people to deal face to face with mentally unstable armed people.  It doesn't take a crystal ball to see that that would be a recipe for disaster.


If my idea were put into practice there would be a section of law enforcement that deals with people such as these, and is TRAINED to deal with people such as these as their exclusive duty. This is not calling Dr Freud with their practice down the street to come in and assist, but people especially trained and paid for the same as police officers that happen to be psychiatrists. The person's particular type of mental instability is what they would be able to recognize and counter peacefully, something cops cannot do.

"Armed" is what you keep harping on, when that is the least of the problems here. Mentally unstable people can and have killed with their bare hands. The way to deal with them is through their heads, not with guns. Cops are not trained to do this.

Seriously, why is this so difficult to grasp?
 
2020-10-28 12:23:07 PM  

rewind2846:

"Armed" is what you keep harping on, when that is the least of the problems here.

That Wallace was armed is the *heart* of the problem in this case and in many others like it.  Because if he hadn't been armed, his family would have been much less likely to call the cops in the first place.

rewind2846: If my idea were put into practice there would be a section of law enforcement that deals with people such as these, and is TRAINED to deal with people such as these as their exclusive duty. This is not calling Dr Freud with their practice down the street to come in and assist, but people especially trained and paid for the same as police officers that happen to be psychiatrists.

Do you mean trained in the use of firearms, too, and provided with a gun?

rewind2846: Mentally unstable people can and have killed with their bare hands. The way to deal with them is through their heads, not with guns. Cops are not trained to do this.


They're much more dangerous if they're carrying a knife, though.

No, cops are not trained to deal with mentally ill people.  They're trained to deal with people who are carrying weapons.  Which, I repeat, is why Wallace's family summoned them in the first place.
 
2020-10-28 3:12:16 PM  

tirob: No, cops are not trained to deal with mentally ill people.  They're trained to deal with people who are carrying weapons.  Which, I repeat, is why Wallace's family summoned them in the first place.


That's because that was all there were. It is also why I suggested ALTERNATIVES, such as sending mental health professionals ALONG WITH the cops. When did people become so shat-scared of everything?


tirob: That Wallace was armed is the *heart* of the problem in this case and in many others like it.  Because if he hadn't been armed, his family would have been much less likely to call the cops in the first place.


He was dangerous in his mental state no matter what. "Armed" should not have been the issue, particularly when all he has was a small knife. A better solution, which for some reason you cannot fathom, is to have someone there that could deal with that mental state FIRST.


tirob: Do you mean trained in the use of firearms, too, and provided with a gun?


That is why the cops should be there on standby and NOT as the primary encounter.

There are police departments that employ psychological experts, and that should have been the first reaction.

"In a 2015 report, Sgt. John Gonzales of the Albuquerque Police Department identified numerous benefits of having a psychiatrist on the force, including better education of detectives about mental illness, increased collaboration with health-care providers and more efficient use of hospital resources."

Much better idea than just shooting and killing mentally ill people just cause you're a-skeered.
 
2020-10-28 3:46:04 PM  

CruiserTwelve: a particular individual: And cops aren't perfect EVERY F*CKING DAY.

Yet you have to reach back 21 years for an example.


If you'd like, I can reach back all the way to this week for examples of scumbag cops shooting first and refusing to answer questions later.

Don't you DARE pretend this is a few bad apples getting out of hand from time to time. It is systemic. It is by design. It is a feature; not a bug. Cops have been idolized and fetishized beyond all reason. They are brainwashed to believe that they are a paramilitary force. A majority of the population are similarly brainwashed.

Somehow, other countries manage to NOT MURDER PEOPLE EVERY GOD-DAMNED DAY.

All Cops Are Bastards. Even you, and you know it.
 
2020-10-28 3:58:40 PM  
rewind2846: That's because that was all there were. It is also why I suggested ALTERNATIVES, such as sending mental health professionals ALONG WITH the cops. When did people become so shat-scared of everything?

He was dangerous in his mental state no matter what. "Armed" should not have been the issue, particularly when all he has was a small knife. A better solution, which for some reason you cannot fathom, is to have someone there that could deal with that mental state FIRST.

That is why the cops should be there on standby and NOT as the primary encounter.


You have clearly never been anywhere near any situation even remotely violent, and everything you know comes from TV and movies.  So you may want to stop and consider that you have no idea what you are talking about, because you clearly don't.

Stabbing weapons are extremely dangerous, and will kill you real quick.  Doesn't even have to be a knife.  Sending "mental health professionals" point into a lethal situation is so stupid it isn't even worth taking seriously.  I am not even sure what you expect them to do outside of a controlled situation, cast a spell?  Do you think that they are wizards with words of power or something?

Your "idea" is so ill-conceived and poorly thought through that you have to resort to name calling and projection in an attempt to defend it.  Just stop.

There are police departments that employ psychological experts, and that should have been the first reaction.

"In a 2015 report, Sgt. John Gonzales of the Albuquerque Police Department identified numerous benefits of having a psychiatrist on the force, including better education of detectives about mental illness, increased collaboration with health-care providers and more efficient use of hospital resources."

Much better idea than just shooting and killing mentally ill people just cause you're a-skeered.


Yes, a staff psychologist on the payroll that has an advisory, support, and evaluation role is a very good thing.  Notice that said staff member isn't trying to disarm knife-wielding men with their bare hands.  I don't see you volunteering for that job rather than complain and arm chair quarterback on Fark like prototypical slacktivist.
 
2020-10-28 4:36:51 PM  

rewind2846: tirob: No, cops are not trained to deal with mentally ill people. They're trained to deal with people who are carrying weapons. Which, I repeat, is why Wallace's family summoned them in the first place.

That's because that was all there were


No, that was because the deceased's family summoned the cops and not a doctor.

rewind2846: tirob: That Wallace was armed is the *heart* of the problem in this case and in many others like it. Because if he hadn't been armed, his family would have been much less likely to call the cops in the first place.

He was dangerous in his mental state no matter what. "Armed" should not have been the issue, particularly when all he has was a small knife.


The danger he posed was magnified enormously by his being armed.  And I don't think we know the size of the knife he was carrying.  That said, it is entirely possible to inflict a fatal wound on a healthy adult even with a single thrust of a small kitchen knife.  I know this because I've seen a case where that happened.

rewind2846: A better solution, which for some reason you cannot fathom, is to have someone there that could deal with that mental state FIRST


I fathom it perfectly, and it sounds great in theory.  But I have told you why I don't think it will work in practice.  And you haven't even tried to rebut me when I say why I don't think the idea of sending an unarmed person to face an armed mentally ill person is a good idea.

rewind2846:

tirob: Do you mean trained in the use of firearms, too, and provided with a gun?

That is why the cops should be there on standby and NOT as the primary encounter.

There are police departments that employ psychological experts, and that should have been the first reaction.

"In a 2015 report, Sgt. John Gonzales of the Albuquerque Police Department identified numerous benefits of having a psychiatrist on the force, including better education of detectives about mental illness, increased collaboration with health-care providers and more efficient use of hospital resources."

Much better idea than just shooting and killing mentally ill people just cause you're a-skeered.


You didn't answer my question.

There are 6,000 sworn officers on the Philadelphia police force, this in a city of 1.5 million people.  I'd be all for the idea of seeing to it that one or more of them is a trained psychiatrist, as is the case in Albuquerque.  But that/those trained psychiatrist(s) can't be everywhere at once.

This tragedy took a very short time to unfold.  What appears to have happened is that Wallace's family called the cops because they said he was having a breakdown, the cops arrived, Wallace appeared on the street carrying a knife (with his mother nearby frantically and unsuccessfully trying to get him to calm down), he walked from behind a parked car brandishing his knife and walking toward the cops, and the cops shot him dead.  By the time your hypothetical shrink arrives from police headquarters downtown, it would have been half an hour too late to help Wallace.

It's probably true that the cops on the scene were scared.  I know I would be, too, if some unbalanced guy were coming at me with a knife.
 
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