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(Strategy Page)   Back in WWII, the Germans had "Milk cow" submarines to deliver fuel and supplies to operational U-boats to extend their capabilities. This is like that, but with drones   (strategypage.com) divider line
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867 clicks; posted to STEM » on 23 Oct 2020 at 10:29 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-10-23 8:10:29 PM  
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2020-10-23 10:51:20 PM  
So the drone delivers the mail to the mail buoy to be picked up by the ship?
Makes sense. But how did the mail buoys work before the drones?

:)
 
2020-10-23 11:19:39 PM  
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2020-10-24 12:57:43 AM  

FarkingChas: So the drone delivers the mail to the mail buoy to be picked up by the ship?
Makes sense. But how did the mail buoys work before the drones?

:)


I doubt that it's mail. Subs have gotten their messages and orders via satellite and ELF radio for decades.
 
2020-10-24 4:37:56 AM  

jjorsett: FarkingChas: So the drone delivers the mail to the mail buoy to be picked up by the ship?
Makes sense. But how did the mail buoys work before the drones?

:)

I doubt that it's mail. Subs have gotten their messages and orders via satellite and ELF radio for decades.


Sigh. This is a very old Navy joke. Get the new recruit to stand on the bow and watch for the "mail buoy" so the ship can pick up it's mail. I was never in the Navy but I have heard the joke more than once.
Like the joke among technicians to get the new employee to go and get a cable stretcher.
Or the mechanics joke to get a left handed vice wrench.
 
2020-10-24 5:46:10 AM  

FarkingChas: Like the joke among technicians to get the new employee to go and get a cable stretcher.


I have one of those cable stretchers near my bottle of head lamp oil for modern cars (it's a synthetic blend.)
 
2020-10-24 7:06:20 AM  

FarkingChas: jjorsett: FarkingChas: So the drone delivers the mail to the mail buoy to be picked up by the ship?
Makes sense. But how did the mail buoys work before the drones?

:)

I doubt that it's mail. Subs have gotten their messages and orders via satellite and ELF radio for decades.

Sigh. This is a very old Navy joke. Get the new recruit to stand on the bow and watch for the "mail buoy" so the ship can pick up it's mail. I was never in the Navy but I have heard the joke more than once.
Like the joke among technicians to get the new employee to go and get a cable stretcher.
Or the mechanics joke to get a left handed vice wrench.


We used to send nugs to get QRM filters and line bearings.

Today, with modern digital technology, there actually are QRM filters.
 
2020-10-24 7:12:01 AM  
The venerable Type XIV.  The Wehrmacht, as a whole, didn't put much attention to logistics, but the Milk Cow Uboats were an exception to this.  The Type XIV only numbered ten units but came into proper usage as the Ubootwaffe ranged further and further from the French and Norweigan bases.

They were a particular boon to the workhorse Type VII boats, their maximum range of only a few thousand kilometers.  When Operation Drumbeat opened in early-1942, the first boats to cross the Atlantic to the American coast were long-range Type IXs.  However, Germany had a relatively limited supply of that model.  The much more numerous and combat-effective VIIs were needed, but they did not easily have that endurance.  Type XIVs were positioned in the mid-Atlantic to extend their operational range.

By 1943, Type XIVs also played a role in extending Uboat ranges past the horn of Africa, allowing the first boats to operate in the Indian Ocean and reach Japanese bases in Penang, Malaysia.  Here they were assisting the already long-ranged Type IX boats destined for the Monsun Gruppe.

Because of their logistical role, Type XIVs became a prime target for Allied anti-submarine efforts.  If they could destroy these range-extending tenders, they would restrict Uboat operations.  Type XIVs, once found, proved relatively easy targets.  Like other submarines of the time, they were really surface ships that dived to escape danger.  They were much more massive than other boats, meaning they took longer to submerge and had a harder time maneuvering.  If they were caught mid-refueling, with their diesel lines out, they could be stuck on the surface.  As logistical and not combat boats, some crews also had a lax attitude about monitoring the horizon or sky for threats.

The Allies destroyed all ten of the Milk Cows, with seven lost in 1943 and the last destroyed in June 1944.

https://www.uboat.net/types/xiv.htm

https://www.uboat.net/types/milkcows.​h​tm

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-x​i​v.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XI​V​_submarine
 
2020-10-24 7:17:01 AM  
On a serious note, though, it seems to me this isn't really useful except perhaps to delivery some critical replacement part.  And a small one at that.  You're not gonna do an UNREP for a sub like this.  And it would have to be a critical part, because surfacing like that is something submarines try to avoid as much as possible.

One use could be to deliver orders if you think your normal communications are compromised.  That also happened to the Germans in WWII, with the Allied breaking of Naval Enigma.

It also happened to the US, for decades, with the Walker spy ring selling the encryption keys for US Navy messages to the Soviets.
 
2020-10-24 8:49:40 AM  

dittybopper: On a serious note, though, it seems to me this isn't really useful except perhaps to delivery some critical replacement part.  And a small one at that.  You're not gonna do an UNREP for a sub like this.  And it would have to be a critical part, because surfacing like that is something submarines try to avoid as much as possible.

One use could be to deliver orders if you think your normal communications are compromised.  That also happened to the Germans in WWII, with the Allied breaking of Naval Enigma.

It also happened to the US, for decades, with the Walker spy ring selling the encryption keys for US Navy messages to the Soviets.


If you have a breach of that nature then the method of communicating to the ship probably doesn't matter much. They'll just shift from selling keys to selling the messages. Germany in WWII had its share of trouble with double agents.

Drones of this size aren't terribly useful for anything above small packages. I think the idea is to prove that it can work, and if it works then it can be scaled up until you have automated drones that can deliver a meaningful amount of stuff.  Like food and weapons and things to extend the range of the ship, because it's a little safer to stay at sea than to come back to a port.

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2020-10-24 9:43:53 AM  

way south: dittybopper: On a serious note, though, it seems to me this isn't really useful except perhaps to delivery some critical replacement part.  And a small one at that.  You're not gonna do an UNREP for a sub like this.  And it would have to be a critical part, because surfacing like that is something submarines try to avoid as much as possible.

One use could be to deliver orders if you think your normal communications are compromised.  That also happened to the Germans in WWII, with the Allied breaking of Naval Enigma.

It also happened to the US, for decades, with the Walker spy ring selling the encryption keys for US Navy messages to the Soviets.

If you have a breach of that nature then the method of communicating to the ship probably doesn't matter much. They'll just shift from selling keys to selling the messages. Germany in WWII had its share of trouble with double agents.

Drones of this size aren't terribly useful for anything above small packages. I think the idea is to prove that it can work, and if it works then it can be scaled up until you have automated drones that can deliver a meaningful amount of stuff.  Like food and weapons and things to extend the range of the ship, because it's a little safer to stay at sea than to come back to a port.

[Fark user image image 850x643]


Drones short of c-5 galaxy size are not going to be terribly useful. Do you have any idea exactly how much fuel, food, and ammunition a ship (or submarine) goes through?

The US already had a fleet of ships that perform this role. And I do mean fleet, and I do mean ships. It takes a bigger boat to freight supplies out to another boat.
 
2020-10-24 10:28:17 AM  
Cool some defense contractor got to charge the navy 20 million bucks(just a guess) to fly a pack of smokes 300 meters an drop it on the deck of a sub with an off the shelf $500 drone. Probably got to keep the money if it failed. I'm in the wrong farking business
 
2020-10-24 10:29:50 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: way south: dittybopper: On a serious note, though, it seems to me this isn't really useful except perhaps to delivery some critical replacement part.  And a small one at that.  You're not gonna do an UNREP for a sub like this.  And it would have to be a critical part, because surfacing like that is something submarines try to avoid as much as possible.

One use could be to deliver orders if you think your normal communications are compromised.  That also happened to the Germans in WWII, with the Allied breaking of Naval Enigma.

It also happened to the US, for decades, with the Walker spy ring selling the encryption keys for US Navy messages to the Soviets.

If you have a breach of that nature then the method of communicating to the ship probably doesn't matter much. They'll just shift from selling keys to selling the messages. Germany in WWII had its share of trouble with double agents.

Drones of this size aren't terribly useful for anything above small packages. I think the idea is to prove that it can work, and if it works then it can be scaled up until you have automated drones that can deliver a meaningful amount of stuff.  Like food and weapons and things to extend the range of the ship, because it's a little safer to stay at sea than to come back to a port.

[Fark user image image 850x643]

Drones short of c-5 galaxy size are not going to be terribly useful. Do you have any idea exactly how much fuel, food, and ammunition a ship (or submarine) goes through?

The US already had a fleet of ships that perform this role. And I do mean fleet, and I do mean ships. It takes a bigger boat to freight supplies out to another boat.


Yeah this is dumb. When I first saw this headline I thought it was about submersible autonomous resupply but no it's grifting
 
2020-10-24 11:01:21 AM  

way south: dittybopper: On a serious note, though, it seems to me this isn't really useful except perhaps to delivery some critical replacement part.  And a small one at that.  You're not gonna do an UNREP for a sub like this.  And it would have to be a critical part, because surfacing like that is something submarines try to avoid as much as possible.

One use could be to deliver orders if you think your normal communications are compromised.  That also happened to the Germans in WWII, with the Allied breaking of Naval Enigma.

It also happened to the US, for decades, with the Walker spy ring selling the encryption keys for US Navy messages to the Soviets.

If you have a breach of that nature then the method of communicating to the ship probably doesn't matter much. They'll just shift from selling keys to selling the messages. Germany in WWII had its share of trouble with double agents.

Drones of this size aren't terribly useful for anything above small packages. I think the idea is to prove that it can work, and if it works then it can be scaled up until you have automated drones that can deliver a meaningful amount of stuff.  Like food and weapons and things to extend the range of the ship, because it's a little safer to stay at sea than to come back to a port.

[Fark user image image 850x643]


I disagree about the communications thing.  If you know your communications are compromised then sending written orders, as in physically delivering a piece of paper has a lot of advantages when it comes to secrecy.  The enemy has to have someone in place to read the messages, which is much harder to actually do.  The Walker ring was effective not because they stole the messages themselves, but because they stole the encryption keys.

This is why, during WWII, once the Germans realized Enigma was compromised, they took specific action.  For the Wehrmacht, they passed orders for the Ardennes offensive via courier, not over the radio.  For the Ubootwaffe, where that wasn't practical, they instead gave every U-boat they're own individual Enigma keys.  So from late 1944 to the end of the war, the Allies were blacked out of reading operational messages to and from U-boats on war patrol.  There simply wasn't enough traffic in any one key to allow them to break it.
 
2020-10-24 11:35:56 AM  
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