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(Reason Magazine)   Trump's economic nationalism has predictably failed once again   (reason.com) divider line
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1934 clicks; posted to Business » and Politics » on 23 Oct 2020 at 7:55 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-10-23 7:58:55 AM  
The only surprising thing about this is that the state pulled the plug rather than chasing sunk costs.
 
2020-10-23 8:02:19 AM  
It appears that Trump is heading for a loss, so "libertarians" are once again totally not Republicans at all you guys.

If Trump wins, they'll snap back in line.
 
2020-10-23 8:04:00 AM  
This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Welcome to Fark, sure, but this is just lazy.
 
2020-10-23 8:19:43 AM  

gyruss: This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Welcome to Fark, sure, but this is just lazy.


I mean, it's cathartic for a lot of us.  Every one of these tax breaks for development plans are scams.  They prey on the naivete of citizenry that believes every economic "study" funded by sports team owners and business interests, and they also prey on the vanity of politicians who want to get a big photo op, but won't be around when the payments on the bonds become due.

They're all scams, but no matter how much you show people that these are net losses for the taxpayer, taxpayers still believe in them because they desperately want to.  Foxconn was an especially egregious one in that they not only asked for a shiatload of money, but promises like LCD megafactories and "Silicon Wisconsin" were incredulous.  No one should have believed them especially when Foxconn had done this numerous times.

Backers will still say "Well, the state didn't pay because not all the incentives were met", but the county and city issued nearly $400 million in debt (through bonds and loans) for infrastructure that will never be utilized.  They built sewers and roads and site improvements for land that will never generate revenue.  They're completely screwed.

I want everyone to see what happened here and understand it, but unfortunately I know that it won't matter and they'll all swoon when the next Lyle Lanley comes to town.
 
2020-10-23 8:27:44 AM  

Rapmaster2000: gyruss: This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Welcome to Fark, sure, but this is just lazy.

I mean, it's cathartic for a lot of us.  Every one of these tax breaks for development plans are scams.  They prey on the naivete of citizenry that believes every economic "study" funded by sports team owners and business interests, and they also prey on the vanity of politicians who want to get a big photo op, but won't be around when the payments on the bonds become due.

They're all scams, but no matter how much you show people that these are net losses for the taxpayer, taxpayers still believe in them because they desperately want to.  Foxconn was an especially egregious one in that they not only asked for a shiatload of money, but promises like LCD megafactories and "Silicon Wisconsin" were incredulous.  No one should have believed them especially when Foxconn had done this numerous times.

Backers will still say "Well, the state didn't pay because not all the incentives were met", but the county and city issued nearly $400 million in debt (through bonds and loans) for infrastructure that will never be utilized.  They built sewers and roads and site improvements for land that will never generate revenue.  They're completely screwed.

I want everyone to see what happened here and understand it, but unfortunately I know that it won't matter and they'll all swoon when the next Lyle Lanley comes to town.


So you're saying Wisconsin should build a monorail?
 
2020-10-23 8:30:34 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Rapmaster2000: gyruss: This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Welcome to Fark, sure, but this is just lazy.

I mean, it's cathartic for a lot of us.  Every one of these tax breaks for development plans are scams.  They prey on the naivete of citizenry that believes every economic "study" funded by sports team owners and business interests, and they also prey on the vanity of politicians who want to get a big photo op, but won't be around when the payments on the bonds become due.

They're all scams, but no matter how much you show people that these are net losses for the taxpayer, taxpayers still believe in them because they desperately want to.  Foxconn was an especially egregious one in that they not only asked for a shiatload of money, but promises like LCD megafactories and "Silicon Wisconsin" were incredulous.  No one should have believed them especially when Foxconn had done this numerous times.

Backers will still say "Well, the state didn't pay because not all the incentives were met", but the county and city issued nearly $400 million in debt (through bonds and loans) for infrastructure that will never be utilized.  They built sewers and roads and site improvements for land that will never generate revenue.  They're completely screwed.

I want everyone to see what happened here and understand it, but unfortunately I know that it won't matter and they'll all swoon when the next Lyle Lanley comes to town.

So you're saying Wisconsin should build a monorail?


It's more of a Minnesota idea.
 
2020-10-23 8:33:38 AM  

gyruss: This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Welcome to Fark, sure, but this is just lazy.


This one might be more about wanting us to read the comments section. I enjoyed it.
 
2020-10-23 8:43:12 AM  
It was a known Republican Math scam from the start. Wisconsin taxpayers, their kids, their kids, their kids and their kids and maybe their kids would still be paying it back. It was so stupid that they could have just invested the money and paid 2100 people 100K per year to do absolutely nothing, forever, and still had all the original money left over at the end. And of course the freedom loving Republicans confiscated people's houses and land and gave away all our water rights, all so they could grab and give our money away like good Republicans while criticising "the left". It was a complete and obvious eye rolling scam from the beginning forced through by Scott Walker and the thieving Wisconsin Republican Legislature.  Probably be a case study at Liberty University in Grifting 101 some day.
 
2020-10-23 8:59:57 AM  
and, I should have added, the whole reason that this happened in the first place was that Scott Walker didn't know how to make even a single job. He decided that his best course of action would be to buy discount bulk jobs from Taiwan so that he could claim to be creating jobs. He paid so much for them that it would take 100 years (nobody really knows because who knows how the economy will work then or what they will make then) to make enough wages to pay back the taxpayers up front investment. He literally bought jobs from Taiwan and payed for the jobs 100 years in advance all so that he could claim to have created a job. Then of course Trump sensed a grift and jumped onto the "jobs" that were being "created" too.
 
2020-10-23 9:15:11 AM  

Rapmaster2000: It appears that Trump is heading for a loss, so "libertarians" are once again totally not Republicans at all you guys.

If Trump wins, they'll snap back in line.


Yeah, Reason has obviously completely changed their tune from their previous glowing praise of this deal.

You are very intelligent.
 
2020-10-23 9:20:39 AM  
Man the comments there are full of very fine individuals alerting you of great paying, easy, work from home jobs where you can earn $65/hour or more!  What a fine site!
 
2020-10-23 9:36:48 AM  

BMFPitt: Rapmaster2000: It appears that Trump is heading for a loss, so "libertarians" are once again totally not Republicans at all you guys.

If Trump wins, they'll snap back in line.

Yeah, Reason has obviously completely changed their tune from their previous glowing praise of this deal.

You are very intelligent.


The oldest article is from 2018, and it's only about Kelo v New London.  The first critical article is from October 24, 2019, when it was clear to everyone that the deal was bad.  Reason is 5 years behind me.

Reason, with their principled libertarian wisdom, was way late to the party.  In true libertarian fashion, they showed up to critique "big government Republicans" when those Republicans became unpopular and after Scott Walker was gone.

Intelligence has nothing to do with it.  Reason, like all libertarians, are just Republicans executing a branding strategy.  When Republicans are triumphant and popular, they're Republicans.  When Republicans are losing and unpopular, they're principled libertarians again.  Everyone can see it, except the libertarians.
 
2020-10-23 10:00:58 AM  

Rapmaster2000: gyruss: This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Welcome to Fark, sure, but this is just lazy.

I mean, it's cathartic for a lot of us.  Every one of these tax breaks for development plans are scams.  They prey on the naivete of citizenry that believes every economic "study" funded by sports team owners and business interests, and they also prey on the vanity of politicians who want to get a big photo op, but won't be around when the payments on the bonds become due.

They're all scams, but no matter how much you show people that these are net losses for the taxpayer, taxpayers still believe in them because they desperately want to.  Foxconn was an especially egregious one in that they not only asked for a shiatload of money, but promises like LCD megafactories and "Silicon Wisconsin" were incredulous.  No one should have believed them especially when Foxconn had done this numerous times.

Backers will still say "Well, the state didn't pay because not all the incentives were met", but the county and city issued nearly $400 million in debt (through bonds and loans) for infrastructure that will never be utilized.  They built sewers and roads and site improvements for land that will never generate revenue.  They're completely screwed.

I want everyone to see what happened here and understand it, but unfortunately I know that it won't matter and they'll all swoon when the next Lyle Lanley comes to town.



Command economies do work, in certain limited situations, depending on how you measure "work".

Japan pulled itself up to first-world status in 25 years, South Korea followed the same model.  The government picked champions and winners, ignored monopolies and cartels, implemented all sorts of non-tariff barriers to protect domestic business.  The Soviet Union went from peasantry to a 1950s economy in 80 years.  Most people had a refrigerator - it wasn't a great refrigerator, but it was something.

But...
Human rights abuses (Korea was under a military democracy for half that time, let's stipulate to all the crap the USSR pulled)
Environmental impacts were enormous
Etc.

And in the end, you often work yourself into a dead end.  You can pull yourself up to 1950 with a command economy, but it's very hard to then implement the habits of thought and the societal/educational/economic infrastructure that lead to, eg, Silicon Valley.

There's no point in trying to do any kind of command economy stuff in post-2000 USA, unless you're talking very narrow goals for national security interests (which even Adam Smith admitted was necessary, even if not strictly rational on a macroeconomic basis).  And these local business incentives are just races to the bottom - executives play off one locality against another; the company gets a benefit, the country as a whole goes through a negative-sum exercise.
 
2020-10-23 10:06:57 AM  

Rapmaster2000: The oldest article is from 2018, and it's only about Kelo v New London.  The first critical article is from October 24, 2019, when it was clear to everyone that the deal was bad.  Reason is 5 years behind me.

Reason, with their principled libertarian wisdom, was way late to the party.  In true libertarian fashion, they showed up to critique "big government Republicans" when those Republicans became unpopular and after Scott Walker was gone.

Intelligence has nothing to do with it.  Reason, like all libertarians, are just Republicans executing a branding strategy.  When Republicans are triumphant and popular, they're Republicans.  When Republicans are losing and unpopular, they're principled libertarians again.  Everyone can see it, except the libertarians.


The sad part is that I think you actually believe what you're saying.  No amount of evidence to the contrary will make the slightest bit of difference.  You know enough to not bother trying to find any article that is even slightly less than scathing about this deal or any similar one anywhere in their archives, but that cognitive dissonance won't stop you from making absurd claims.
 
2020-10-23 10:12:18 AM  

BMFPitt: Rapmaster2000: The oldest article is from 2018, and it's only about Kelo v New London.  The first critical article is from October 24, 2019, when it was clear to everyone that the deal was bad.  Reason is 5 years behind me.

Reason, with their principled libertarian wisdom, was way late to the party.  In true libertarian fashion, they showed up to critique "big government Republicans" when those Republicans became unpopular and after Scott Walker was gone.

Intelligence has nothing to do with it.  Reason, like all libertarians, are just Republicans executing a branding strategy.  When Republicans are triumphant and popular, they're Republicans.  When Republicans are losing and unpopular, they're principled libertarians again.  Everyone can see it, except the libertarians.

The sad part is that I think you actually believe what you're saying.  No amount of evidence to the contrary will make the slightest bit of difference.  You know enough to not bother trying to find any article that is even slightly less than scathing about this deal or any similar one anywhere in their archives, but that cognitive dissonance won't stop you from making absurd claims.


You gave me the four "scathing" articles.  There are only 4.  There is no more evidence. 

They're as late to the party as I said they were.  There is no cognitive dissonance.

Do you still feel sad for me?  :(
 
2020-10-23 10:17:36 AM  

Rapmaster2000: It appears that Trump is heading for a loss, so "libertarians" are once again totally not Republicans at all you guys.

If Trump wins, they'll snap back in line.


To be fair to Team Reason, they never jumped on the Trump train the way the Rothbard-Rockwell cult did (for example).

But yeah, when I read about Jo Jorgenson pandering to anti-vaxxers, I ask myself again what I ever saw in libertarianism.
 
2020-10-23 10:24:17 AM  

MikeyFuccon: Rapmaster2000: It appears that Trump is heading for a loss, so "libertarians" are once again totally not Republicans at all you guys.

If Trump wins, they'll snap back in line.

To be fair to Team Reason, they never jumped on the Trump train the way the Rothbard-Rockwell cult did (for example).

But yeah, when I read about Jo Jorgenson pandering to anti-vaxxers, I ask myself again what I ever saw in libertarianism.


Libertarianism has a good sales pitch:  "get government out of your life".  Nobody likes to be told what to do.  It especially resonates with young people who have spent from birth until their mid-20s being told what to do.  It appealed to me for a bit when I was 22.  Also, weed.

It also has a nice sales pitch about being able to do whatever you want or whatever you want on your own land as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.  The problem comes when a neighbor turns his property into a tire dump.  I would say it's harmful.  The neighbor would probably say it isn't harmful.  Now, I want the government involved to tell that guy what he can do on his own land.
 
2020-10-23 10:27:36 AM  
Look on the bright side.  No need for suicide nets on the upper floors of the building.
 
2020-10-23 10:44:01 AM  

Rapmaster2000: gyruss: This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Backers will still say "Well, the state didn't pay because not all the incentives were met", but the county and city issued nearly $400 million in debt (through bonds and loans) for infrastructure that will never be utilized.  They built sewers and roads and site improvements for land that will never generate revenue.  They're completely screwed.


And they kicked people out of their houses and bulldozed the houses.
 
2020-10-23 11:24:03 AM  

Rapmaster2000: It also has a nice sales pitch about being able to do whatever you want or whatever you want on your own land as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. The problem comes when a neighbor turns his property into a tire dump. I would say it's harmful. The neighbor would probably say it isn't harmful. Now, I want the government involved to tell that guy what he can do on his own land.


Libertarians would just tell you to buy all the land surrounding the land you actually want to create a buffer between you and the tire dump.
 
2020-10-23 11:30:51 AM  

trialpha: Rapmaster2000: It also has a nice sales pitch about being able to do whatever you want or whatever you want on your own land as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. The problem comes when a neighbor turns his property into a tire dump. I would say it's harmful. The neighbor would probably say it isn't harmful. Now, I want the government involved to tell that guy what he can do on his own land.

Libertarians would just tell you to buy all the land surrounding the land you actually want to create a buffer between you and the tire dump.


Or I could create a private army and burn the tire dump and the owner of the tire dump.
 
2020-10-23 11:37:18 AM  
Do you know what the U.S. biggest export is? Debt
 
2020-10-23 11:44:36 AM  

Rapmaster2000: trialpha: Rapmaster2000: It also has a nice sales pitch about being able to do whatever you want or whatever you want on your own land as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. The problem comes when a neighbor turns his property into a tire dump. I would say it's harmful. The neighbor would probably say it isn't harmful. Now, I want the government involved to tell that guy what he can do on his own land.

Libertarians would just tell you to buy all the land surrounding the land you actually want to create a buffer between you and the tire dump.

Or I could create a private army and burn the tire dump and the owner of the tire dump.


I find it interesting that the end game of libertarianism is always a mercenary police force and a company town and ... A government!
 
2020-10-23 11:46:18 AM  

BMFPitt: The only surprising thing about this is that the state pulled the plug rather than chasing sunk costs.


To an extent they did.  They pursued civil asset forfeiture and razed a community to build an empty warehouse with a handful of employees, at a staggering social and financial cost.
Of course Scott Walker couldn't afford to pay teachers a living salary.  He was giving it all away to foreign wealthy elites for nothing in return.
 
2020-10-23 11:56:11 AM  

BMFPitt: The only surprising thing about this is that the state pulled the plug rather than chasing sunk costs.


The program was closely tied to the previous Republican governor.  The new Democratic governor saw what a clustefark it is and refused to continue to play along.
 
2020-10-23 12:06:18 PM  

Rapmaster2000: BMFPitt: Rapmaster2000: It appears that Trump is heading for a loss, so "libertarians" are once again totally not Republicans at all you guys.

If Trump wins, they'll snap back in line.

Yeah, Reason has obviously completely changed their tune from their previous glowing praise of this deal.

You are very intelligent.

The oldest article is from 2018, and it's only about Kelo v New London.  The first critical article is from October 24, 2019, when it was clear to everyone that the deal was bad.  Reason is 5 years behind me.

Reason, with their principled libertarian wisdom, was way late to the party.  In true libertarian fashion, they showed up to critique "big government Republicans" when those Republicans became unpopular and after Scott Walker was gone.

Intelligence has nothing to do with it.  Reason, like all libertarians, are just Republicans executing a branding strategy.  When Republicans are triumphant and popular, they're Republicans.  When Republicans are losing and unpopular, they're principled libertarians again.  Everyone can see it, except the libertarians.


Trump is a Libertarian wet dream of a President. Deregulate everything, pull our troops from everywhere consequences be damned, tax cuts, appointing judges who'll make sure every piece of progressive legislation is struck down for a generation, etc etc. The only thing he didn't do is legalize it
 
2020-10-23 12:11:40 PM  
Hey Reason:

Libertarian economic rationalism also predictably fails.
 
2020-10-23 12:13:28 PM  

Rapmaster2000: You gave me the four "scathing" articles.  There are only 4.  There is no more evidence.


Well those were the 4 about this specific deal.  How often do you think they should be publishing updates about it?

They're as late to the party as I said they were. There is no cognitive dissonance.

If you actually believed that, you'd try to look for evidence of it to post here, as it would be easy to find.  But you know all you'll get is decades worth of articles saying that these types of deals are terrible.

Do you still feel sad for me?

Yes.
 
2020-10-23 12:18:09 PM  

Northern: To an extent they did.  They pursued civil asset forfeiture and razed a community to build an empty warehouse with a handful of employees, at a staggering social and financial cost.


Those are the sunk costs.  The surprising part was that they stopped now.

Also, civil asset forfeiture and eminent domain are different things.  Civil asset forfeiture is when the cops steal stuff from people who can't afford lawyers.  Rapmaster2000 probably fantasizes about Reason being in favor of that, too.
 
2020-10-23 12:21:22 PM  
"Even the handful of jobs the company claims to have created are less than real: many of them held by people with nothing to do, hired so the company could reach the number required for it to get tax subsidy payments from Wisconsin," writes The Verge's Josh Dzieza. "Foxconn failed at that objective, too: last week, Wisconsin rejected the company's subsidy application and found it had employed only 281 people eligible under the contract at the end of 2019. Many have since been laid off."

i.imgflip.comView Full Size
 
2020-10-23 12:22:51 PM  

MikeyFuccon: To be fair to Team Reason, they never jumped on the Trump train the way the Rothbard-Rockwell cult did (for example).


Don't be too fair, though.  There are a wide variety of opinions by different writers, and the fact that nonzero of them see Trump as the lesser evil is shameful.

But yeah, when I read about Jo Jorgenson pandering to anti-vaxxers, I ask myself again what I ever saw in libertarianism.

The sad part is that the anti-vax stuff is pretty far down the list of reasons why she's a dumpster fire.
 
2020-10-23 12:26:17 PM  

Rapmaster2000: trialpha: Rapmaster2000: It also has a nice sales pitch about being able to do whatever you want or whatever you want on your own land as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. The problem comes when a neighbor turns his property into a tire dump. I would say it's harmful. The neighbor would probably say it isn't harmful. Now, I want the government involved to tell that guy what he can do on his own land.

Libertarians would just tell you to buy all the land surrounding the land you actually want to create a buffer between you and the tire dump.

Or I could create a private army and burn the tire dump and the owner of the tire dump.


Just make sure you pay that army with "real" money, aka gold.
 
2020-10-23 12:29:52 PM  
Reason, huh, lol... Do they still have that editor from the nineties that used to sleep in his brown leather jacket?
 
2020-10-23 12:54:26 PM  

Rapmaster2000: gyruss: This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Welcome to Fark, sure, but this is just lazy.

I mean, it's cathartic for a lot of us.  Every one of these tax breaks for development plans are scams.  They prey on the naivete of citizenry that believes every economic "study" funded by sports team owners and business interests, and they also prey on the vanity of politicians who want to get a big photo op, but won't be around when the payments on the bonds become due.

They're all scams, but no matter how much you show people that these are net losses for the taxpayer, taxpayers still believe in them because they desperately want to.  Foxconn was an especially egregious one in that they not only asked for a shiatload of money, but promises like LCD megafactories and "Silicon Wisconsin" were incredulous.  No one should have believed them especially when Foxconn had done this numerous times.

Backers will still say "Well, the state didn't pay because not all the incentives were met", but the county and city issued nearly $400 million in debt (through bonds and loans) for infrastructure that will never be utilized.  They built sewers and roads and site improvements for land that will never generate revenue.  They're completely screwed.

I want everyone to see what happened here and understand it, but unfortunately I know that it won't matter and they'll all swoon when the next Lyle Lanley comes to town.


Is there some reason they can't  do something else with the land? That's a half billion dollar plot ty just improved, so I'm sure someone would like to buy a turn-key factory lot.
 
2020-10-23 1:23:17 PM  

Geotpf: BMFPitt: The only surprising thing about this is that the state pulled the plug rather than chasing sunk costs.

The program was closely tied to the previous Republican governor.  The new Democratic governor saw what a clustefark it is and refused to continue to play along.


In two years will the whole thing be:

a) A bad deal created by the Democrats

or

b) A great deal for Wisconsin that Democrats destroyed
 
2020-10-23 1:24:32 PM  

BMFPitt: Northern: To an extent they did.  They pursued civil asset forfeiture and razed a community to build an empty warehouse with a handful of employees, at a staggering social and financial cost.

Those are the sunk costs.  The surprising part was that they stopped now.

Also, civil asset forfeiture and eminent domain are different things.  Civil asset forfeiture is when the cops steal stuff from people who can't afford lawyers.  Rapmaster2000 probably fantasizes about Reason being in favor of that, too.


I'm sorry I was so mean to Reason.  Can you apologize to Reason for me?
 
2020-10-23 1:57:14 PM  
Rapmaster2000:

So you're saying Wisconsin should build a monorail?

It's more of a Minnesota idea.


It isn't a monorail. It's a rail line on the ground, where it can still run into people and cars. But it does get the high rollers that come into town from the airport to downtown MPLS. And their SO to the Mall of America.

Besides, MN is more into subsidizing wealthy sports team owners who "need" a new stadium or arena, or else they will pick up and move to someplace else that has more compliant politicians.
 
2020-10-23 2:00:41 PM  

Stibium: Rapmaster2000: gyruss: This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Welcome to Fark, sure, but this is just lazy.

I mean, it's cathartic for a lot of us.  Every one of these tax breaks for development plans are scams.  They prey on the naivete of citizenry that believes every economic "study" funded by sports team owners and business interests, and they also prey on the vanity of politicians who want to get a big photo op, but won't be around when the payments on the bonds become due.

They're all scams, but no matter how much you show people that these are net losses for the taxpayer, taxpayers still believe in them because they desperately want to.  Foxconn was an especially egregious one in that they not only asked for a shiatload of money, but promises like LCD megafactories and "Silicon Wisconsin" were incredulous.  No one should have believed them especially when Foxconn had done this numerous times.

Backers will still say "Well, the state didn't pay because not all the incentives were met", but the county and city issued nearly $400 million in debt (through bonds and loans) for infrastructure that will never be utilized.  They built sewers and roads and site improvements for land that will never generate revenue.  They're completely screwed.

I want everyone to see what happened here and understand it, but unfortunately I know that it won't matter and they'll all swoon when the next Lyle Lanley comes to town.

Is there some reason they can't  do something else with the land? That's a half billion dollar plot ty just improved, so I'm sure someone would like to buy a turn-key factory lot.


LOL no.
 
2020-10-23 2:16:41 PM  

Stibium: Rapmaster2000: gyruss: This is easily the fifth submission and by my count the third greenlight of articles which all reference the same Verge article.

Welcome to Fark, sure, but this is just lazy.

I mean, it's cathartic for a lot of us.  Every one of these tax breaks for development plans are scams.  They prey on the naivete of citizenry that believes every economic "study" funded by sports team owners and business interests, and they also prey on the vanity of politicians who want to get a big photo op, but won't be around when the payments on the bonds become due.

They're all scams, but no matter how much you show people that these are net losses for the taxpayer, taxpayers still believe in them because they desperately want to.  Foxconn was an especially egregious one in that they not only asked for a shiatload of money, but promises like LCD megafactories and "Silicon Wisconsin" were incredulous.  No one should have believed them especially when Foxconn had done this numerous times.

Backers will still say "Well, the state didn't pay because not all the incentives were met", but the county and city issued nearly $400 million in debt (through bonds and loans) for infrastructure that will never be utilized.  They built sewers and roads and site improvements for land that will never generate revenue.  They're completely screwed.

I want everyone to see what happened here and understand it, but unfortunately I know that it won't matter and they'll all swoon when the next Lyle Lanley comes to town.

Is there some reason they can't  do something else with the land? That's a half billion dollar plot ty just improved, so I'm sure someone would like to buy a turn-key factory lot.


There's no reason they can't.  They've been trying extremely hard to do just that.  The problem with that idea is there's not really a shortage of improved for industry land in this country.
 
2020-10-23 2:24:38 PM  
I remember reading a while back an interview with a Foxconn executive about this whole thing. Foxconn expects a new plant to go from conception to start-up in six months-- they can only plan as long as the end of the current cycle of digital products. They have found that they can't do this in the US or many other countries. Just getting permits in the US can take 2+ years for a major factory. They had been hoping that being "pro business" meant that Wisconsin would simply skip all that stuff and let them toss up a prefab place immediately and when that didn't happen, there was no business case for putting a factory anywhere in the US. Rapid spin up and spin down of factories is essential to Foxconn and they won't be returning to the US because you cannot do electronics parts production under US regulations.

Of course the guy was wrong, you can. You lease the space from developers. If they had gone through Duke or someone like that for a light industrial plant, they could have had that flexibility. New construction? Nope.

That is why everyone leases from ProLogis or Duke or whatever. Moving in machinery and validating the lines are the same.
 
2020-10-23 4:43:16 PM  

Al Tsheimers: Rapmaster2000:

So you're saying Wisconsin should build a monorail?

It's more of a Minnesota idea.

It isn't a monorail. It's a rail line on the ground, where it can still run into people and cars. But it does get the high rollers that come into town from the airport to downtown MPLS. And their SO to the Mall of America.

Besides, MN is more into subsidizing wealthy sports team owners who "need" a new stadium or arena, or else they will pick up and move to someplace else that has more compliant politicians.


Personally, I don't like "streetcars" that get stuck in traffic.  Either pay enough to separate it from car traffic (elevated, underground, or just with crossing arms like a standard train), or just run a bus line.  Streetcars are a worst of both worlds kind of thing; they cost a lot more than a bus yet aren't really any faster.

As for free sports stadiums for billionaires, those are some of the worst taxpayer giveaways possible.
 
2020-10-23 4:49:17 PM  

BolloxReader: I remember reading a while back an interview with a Foxconn executive about this whole thing. Foxconn expects a new plant to go from conception to start-up in six months-- they can only plan as long as the end of the current cycle of digital products. They have found that they can't do this in the US or many other countries. Just getting permits in the US can take 2+ years for a major factory. They had been hoping that being "pro business" meant that Wisconsin would simply skip all that stuff and let them toss up a prefab place immediately and when that didn't happen, there was no business case for putting a factory anywhere in the US. Rapid spin up and spin down of factories is essential to Foxconn and they won't be returning to the US because you cannot do electronics parts production under US regulations.

Of course the guy was wrong, you can. You lease the space from developers. If they had gone through Duke or someone like that for a light industrial plant, they could have had that flexibility. New construction? Nope.

That is why everyone leases from ProLogis or Duke or whatever. Moving in machinery and validating the lines are the same.


He's lying.  They never had a plan beyond kissing some politicians ass and figure out everything else later.

The better article on this (both mentioned in the linked article and previously Greenlit several days ago) is here: https://www.theverge.com/215079​66/foxc​onn-empty-factories-wisconsin-jobs-loo​phole-trump
 
2020-10-23 5:52:49 PM  

Geotpf: As for free sports stadiums for billionaires, those are some of the worst taxpayer giveaways possible.


Counterpoint: At least the stadiums actually get built and sports get played in them.

As often as not, all these kinds of deals get the taxpayers is a pile of debt and a big empty lot.
 
2020-10-23 7:20:11 PM  

BMFPitt: Geotpf: As for free sports stadiums for billionaires, those are some of the worst taxpayer giveaways possible.

Counterpoint: At least the stadiums actually get built and sports get played in them.

As often as not, all these kinds of deals get the taxpayers is a pile of debt and a big empty lot.


Not this year.
 
2020-10-23 7:28:45 PM  

Al Tsheimers: Rapmaster2000:

So you're saying Wisconsin should build a monorail?

It's more of a Minnesota idea.

It isn't a monorail. It's a rail line on the ground, where it can still run into people and cars. But it does get the high rollers that come into town from the airport to downtown MPLS. And their SO to the Mall of America.

Besides, MN is more into subsidizing wealthy sports team owners who "need" a new stadium or arena, or else they will pick up and move to someplace else that has more compliant politicians.


I've been pondering starting a Monorail Authority for my town...

/It'd at least have an awesome logo.
//Suitable for stickers and t-shirts.
 
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