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(Jalopnik)   Tesla had another profitable quarter, 5 in a row. Now, if only they could make a profit without EV credits purchased by other automakers   (jalopnik.com) divider line
    More: Obvious  
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786 clicks; posted to Business » and STEM » on 22 Oct 2020 at 1:30 AM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-10-21 10:46:15 PM  
They will need to spend some money to coup Bolivia again now that they've gone all democratic.
 
2020-10-22 1:54:56 AM  
Companies that are rapidly expanding typically aren't profitable due to massive capital spending outlays from build the infrastructure needed for future growth.
 
Xai [TotalFark]
2020-10-22 3:38:27 AM  
Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

A profit is a profit.
 
2020-10-22 4:17:30 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Companies that are rapidly expanding typically aren't profitable due to massive capital spending outlays from build the infrastructure needed for future growth.


Unless they're zombie companies.
 
2020-10-22 4:33:55 AM  
If only the automakers could be profitable without government subsidies for fossil fuels, roads, highways, and actively allowing them to pollute.

Oh wait, maybe all of this is only possible because we actively made it possible, and even then we have to bail out automakers regularly to keep them from imploding. Maybe industrial capitalism is heavily supported by the state in both passive and active ways.

Subby needs to educate themselves about how "profitablity" works.
 
2020-10-22 5:29:57 AM  
Tesla could sell a million cars, turn a 100% profit, and cure cancer, and Jalopnik would still think they're literally on the brink of bankruptcy and only prevented from collapsing thanks to stupid stakeholders and investors who are hopelessly infatuated with Elon Musk.
 
2020-10-22 5:36:53 AM  

Xai: Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

A profit is a profit.


One word: EBITDA.  Look it up.
 
2020-10-22 5:56:29 AM  
So maybe those other companies should stop making heavily polluting shiatboxes? Tesla just completed a giant factory and they're building two more on their competition's dime. Seems pretty smart to me.

/They are hella overvalued, though.
 
2020-10-22 7:02:20 AM  

adamatari: If only the automakers could be profitable without government subsidies for fossil fuels, roads, highways, and actively allowing them to pollute.

Oh wait, maybe all of this is only possible because we actively made it possible, and even then we have to bail out automakers regularly to keep them from imploding. Maybe industrial capitalism is heavily supported by the state in both passive and active ways.

Subby needs to educate themselves about how "profitablity" works.


I didn't know Tesla's didn't use roads or electricity generated from fossil fuels or other heavily-subsidized power sources like wind and solar.
 
2020-10-22 7:10:55 AM  

Ishkur: Mad_Radhu: Companies that are rapidly expanding typically aren't profitable due to massive capital spending outlays from build the infrastructure needed for future growth.

Unless they're zombie companies.


Remember how Amazon never posted a profit until 2002?  Good times.
 
2020-10-22 7:11:35 AM  

Xai: Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

We in fact do that.  You haven't been paying attention.
 
2020-10-22 7:24:34 AM  

Ishkur: Mad_Radhu: Companies that are rapidly expanding typically aren't profitable due to massive capital spending outlays from build the infrastructure needed for future growth.

Unless they're zombie companies.


Wha?
 
2020-10-22 7:32:08 AM  
If only automobile manufacturers had to pay for the environmental costs of burning fossil fuels.
 
2020-10-22 8:50:29 AM  

Muta: Xai: Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

A profit is a profit.

One word: EBITDA.  Look it up.


...is a Non-GAAP measure
 
2020-10-22 8:59:52 AM  
Listen to Subby.  How cute.  Just like one of those Wall Street Analysts who called it wrong with Tesla for the last few years.

Tesla is only profitable with credits!  Let's value it just like a traditional car maker!   Just wait until the Detroit 3 gets serious about EVs!   The stock is only worth 30 bucks a share!  Zzzzzzzzz
 
2020-10-22 9:10:16 AM  
Someday they'll have a good vehicle that's affordable. I hope that day is before I pay my current car off. If it isn't, I'll stick with gas or diesel.
 
2020-10-22 9:11:21 AM  

aerojockey: Tesla could sell a million billion cars, turn a 100% profit, and cure cancer, and Jalopnik would still think they're literally on the brink of bankruptcy and only prevented from collapsing thanks to stupid stakeholders and investors who are hopelessly infatuated with Elon Musk.


FIFY

/long on TSLA
//do not own a Tesla
///Maybe a Model 2
 
2020-10-22 9:25:20 AM  

Xai: Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

A profit is a profit.


A profit was a profit. If those rebates are stable and you can plan on them in the future, there will be a profit again.
If they won't be there next year, and the business model doesn't change, the profits will suddenly jerk to a stop.
-
Automakers making their own EV's may or may not mean that those EV's compete well against Tesla. What it certainly does mean is the credit purchasing from Tesla stops.
-
tl,dr; Tesla stops getting the large sums of money that make them solvent at the very moment they finally face real competition.
 
2020-10-22 10:35:26 AM  
Driving any regular car is ridiculously subsidized in this country.
 
2020-10-22 10:44:33 AM  

kroxeldiphibic: adamatari: If only the automakers could be profitable without government subsidies for fossil fuels, roads, highways, and actively allowing them to pollute.

Oh wait, maybe all of this is only possible because we actively made it possible, and even then we have to bail out automakers regularly to keep them from imploding. Maybe industrial capitalism is heavily supported by the state in both passive and active ways.

Subby needs to educate themselves about how "profitablity" works.

I didn't know Tesla's didn't use roads or electricity generated from fossil fuels or other heavily-subsidized power sources like wind and solar.


The amount of highway damage done by passenger vehicles is puny. It's weather and semis.
 
2020-10-22 11:09:13 AM  

Dryad: Xai: Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

A profit is a profit.

A profit was a profit. If those rebates are stable and you can plan on them in the future, there will be a profit again.
If they won't be there next year, and the business model doesn't change, the profits will suddenly jerk to a stop.
-
Automakers making their own EV's may or may not mean that those EV's compete well against Tesla. What it certainly does mean is the credit purchasing from Tesla stops.
-
tl,dr; Tesla stops getting the large sums of money that make them solvent at the very moment they finally face real competition.


Real competition? Aside from the id.3, which isn't coming to the States, what competition do they have in the next 5 years? Nothing around that price comes close in terms of range it features, and the only manufacturer who has the manufacturing in place is VWAGY. Maybe they Korean brands, but they haven't knocked off Tesla so far. Rivian, GM, and Ford are all putting out $70,000 to $100,000 vehicles. Only thing I can think of is Lordstown, but they'll only compete with the cybertruck. Mercedes EQ could knock off the Model S and X, but Tesla is more focused on the 3 and Y right now.

The EV space sucks in America right now (it's even worse where I live). Tesla has that market for the foreseeable future.
 
2020-10-22 11:10:34 AM  
Tesla doesn't get giant gobs of money from the government.

The people WHO BUY THE CARS get a decent sized tax credit... although I thought they let that lapse.

Regardless, the tax credit, at least compared to the absurdly expensive cars tesla offers, is like pocket change.  Anyone buying a car from tesla would still be buying it without the tax credit.  That doesn't suddenly make their cars affordable.
 
2020-10-22 11:11:12 AM  

aerojockey: Tesla could sell a million cars, turn a 100% profit, and cure cancer, and Jalopnik would still think they're literally on the brink of bankruptcy and only prevented from collapsing thanks to stupid stakeholders and investors who are hopelessly infatuated with Elon Musk.


Point out anything in that article that wasn't guardedly positive about Teslas future?
I know without enough sloppy blowjobs to Saint Musk, you will be deeply offended at the insult to your religion, but there was nothing in the article but a factual and even fairly positive assessment of Teslas position in the market.
 
2020-10-22 11:20:30 AM  

Likwit: Dryad: Xai: Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

A profit is a profit.

A profit was a profit. If those rebates are stable and you can plan on them in the future, there will be a profit again.
If they won't be there next year, and the business model doesn't change, the profits will suddenly jerk to a stop.
-
Automakers making their own EV's may or may not mean that those EV's compete well against Tesla. What it certainly does mean is the credit purchasing from Tesla stops.
-
tl,dr; Tesla stops getting the large sums of money that make them solvent at the very moment they finally face real competition.

Real competition? Aside from the id.3, which isn't coming to the States, what competition do they have in the next 5 years? Nothing around that price comes close in terms of range it features, and the only manufacturer who has the manufacturing in place is VWAGY. Maybe they Korean brands, but they haven't knocked off Tesla so far. Rivian, GM, and Ford are all putting out $70,000 to $100,000 vehicles. Only thing I can think of is Lordstown, but they'll only compete with the cybertruck. Mercedes EQ could knock off the Model S and X, but Tesla is more focused on the 3 and Y right now.

The EV space sucks in America right now (it's even worse where I live). Tesla has that market for the foreseeable future.


Yup. But eventually, GM and VW and the rest will move into it, in some way, in at least some parts of their current market.
Not tomorrow, but soon enough. That will simultaneously bring both competition and a reduction of cashflow. How they plan to deal with that is a valid question any investor should ask. They may be getting strong enough now to handle it in ways they many not have been even a year ago. They will likely become stronger still in the meantime.
-
I am not saying they cannot find a way to navigate the disruption, but I am saying that if someone is not willing to even ask the question about how a company plans to navigate such a serious disruption, they are not investing for financial reasons, but emotional ones.
If you don't think emotional buyers are a major component of what is keeping TSLA stock price high, then explain to me why Tesla has a market cap that exceeds the combined value of every major world automaker -ALL COMBINED-.
Justify that with some numbers for me.
 
2020-10-22 11:57:38 AM  

I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: The amount of highway damage done by passenger vehicles is puny. It's weather and semis.


Ding ding ding! Yep, all that gas tax we pay is largely a subsidy to highway truck shipping. So, yet another subsidy to low-density city development patterns and folks who live in the middle of nowhere. Add it to the list.
 
2020-10-22 12:47:07 PM  

fallingcow: I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: The amount of highway damage done by passenger vehicles is puny. It's weather and semis.

Ding ding ding! Yep, all that gas tax we pay is largely a subsidy to highway truck shipping. So, yet another subsidy to low-density city development patterns and folks who live in the middle of nowhere. Add it to the list.


At the same time, those people tend to drive more miles and pay more gas tax.
 
2020-10-22 1:05:23 PM  
Likwit:
Real competition? Aside from the id.3, which isn't coming to the States, what competition do they have in the next 5 years? Nothing around that price comes close in terms of range it features, and the only manufacturer who has the manufacturing in place is VWAGY. Maybe they Korean brands, but they haven't knocked off Tesla so far. Rivian, GM, and Ford are all putting out $70,000 to $100,000 vehicles. Only thing I can think of is Lordstown, but they'll only compete with the cybertruck. Mercedes EQ could knock off the Model S and X, but Tesla is more focused on the 3 and Y right now.

The EV space sucks in America right now (it's even worse where I live). Tesla has that market for the foreseeable future.


The ID.4 is coming to the US starting around $40k. The Mach-E starts around $43k. That's before the $7500 federal tax credit which Teslas don't get anymore.

Model 3 has no rival in the US but sedans don't really matter in the long run. Model 3 registrations in California dropped 60 percent in Q3 in the US (vs Q3 2019), once Model Y showed up. It's the same story as with Model S - people bought the best electric vehicle that was available, until a better (and much cheaper) one showed up.

But it is true that Tesla faces - and will continue to face - way more competition in China and Europe than in the US.
 
2020-10-22 1:16:46 PM  

Dafatone: fallingcow: I am Tom Joad's Complete Lack of Surprise: The amount of highway damage done by passenger vehicles is puny. It's weather and semis.

Ding ding ding! Yep, all that gas tax we pay is largely a subsidy to highway truck shipping. So, yet another subsidy to low-density city development patterns and folks who live in the middle of nowhere. Add it to the list.

At the same time, those people tend to drive more miles and pay more gas tax.


Haha, true. Except the ones filling their trucks with off-road diesel, anyway.
 
2020-10-22 1:55:58 PM  

Likwit: Dryad: Xai: Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

A profit is a profit.

A profit was a profit. If those rebates are stable and you can plan on them in the future, there will be a profit again.
If they won't be there next year, and the business model doesn't change, the profits will suddenly jerk to a stop.
-
Automakers making their own EV's may or may not mean that those EV's compete well against Tesla. What it certainly does mean is the credit purchasing from Tesla stops.
-
tl,dr; Tesla stops getting the large sums of money that make them solvent at the very moment they finally face real competition.

Real competition? Aside from the id.3, which isn't coming to the States, what competition do they have in the next 5 years? Nothing around that price comes close in terms of range it features, and the only manufacturer who has the manufacturing in place is VWAGY. Maybe they Korean brands, but they haven't knocked off Tesla so far. Rivian, GM, and Ford are all putting out $70,000 to $100,000 vehicles. Only thing I can think of is Lordstown, but they'll only compete with the cybertruck. Mercedes EQ could knock off the Model S and X, but Tesla is more focused on the 3 and Y right now.

The EV space sucks in America right now (it's even worse where I live). Tesla has that market for the foreseeable future.


What kind of no-true-Scotsman argument is that? there are literally dozens of electric cars for sale in the US including a Porsche which is comparable to a Model S in every way (ten miles less on range) but far ahead on reliability and quality. https://www.caranddriver.com​/shopping-​advice/g32463239/new-ev-models-us/
 
2020-10-22 2:00:43 PM  

stevesporn2000: What kind of no-true-Scotsman argument is that? there are literally dozens of electric cars for sale in the US including a Porsche which is comparable to a Model S in every way (ten miles less on range) but far ahead on reliability and quality. https://www.caranddriver.com/​shopping-advice/g32463239/new-ev-model​s-us/


He is like Elon's very own Bagdad Bob. He does this in every Tesla thread, works at a dealership IIRC.
 
2020-10-22 2:31:53 PM  
Tesla's biggest future lies in energy storage.  They're zooming ahead in massive battery installs, that part of the company should be equal to the car side in a few years.
 
2020-10-22 3:47:05 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Tesla's biggest future lies in energy storage.  They're zooming ahead in massive battery installs, that part of the company should be equal to the car side in a few years.


Building the megapacks in a factory, including the charger and output inverter introduced huge economies of scale. Tesla recently dropped the price 27%.  The modules weigh about 51,000 lbs, so transportation is easy.  You need more capacity, just keep adding Megapacks.

I'm less optimistic for their solar operation.  Small scale installations will always be dominated by installation costs.
 
2020-10-22 4:12:01 PM  

Dryad: Likwit: Dryad: Xai: Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

A profit is a profit.

A profit was a profit. If those rebates are stable and you can plan on them in the future, there will be a profit again.
If they won't be there next year, and the business model doesn't change, the profits will suddenly jerk to a stop.
-
Automakers making their own EV's may or may not mean that those EV's compete well against Tesla. What it certainly does mean is the credit purchasing from Tesla stops.
-
tl,dr; Tesla stops getting the large sums of money that make them solvent at the very moment they finally face real competition.

Real competition? Aside from the id.3, which isn't coming to the States, what competition do they have in the next 5 years? Nothing around that price comes close in terms of range it features, and the only manufacturer who has the manufacturing in place is VWAGY. Maybe they Korean brands, but they haven't knocked off Tesla so far. Rivian, GM, and Ford are all putting out $70,000 to $100,000 vehicles. Only thing I can think of is Lordstown, but they'll only compete with the cybertruck. Mercedes EQ could knock off the Model S and X, but Tesla is more focused on the 3 and Y right now.

The EV space sucks in America right now (it's even worse where I live). Tesla has that market for the foreseeable future.

Yup. But eventually, GM and VW and the rest will move into it, in some way, in at least some parts of their current market.
Not tomorrow, but soon enough. That will simultaneously bring both competition and a reduction of cashflow. How they plan to deal with that is a valid question any investor should ask. They may be getting strong enough now to handle it in ways they many not have been even a year ago. They will likely become stronger still in the meantime.
-
I am not saying they cannot find a way to navigate the disruption, but I am saying that if someone is not willing to even ask the question about how a company plans to navigate such a serious disruption, they are not investing for financial reasons, but emotional ones.
If you don't think emotional buyers are a major component of what is keeping TSLA stock price high, then explain to me why Tesla has a market cap that exceeds the combined value of every major world automaker -ALL COMBINED-.
Justify that with some numbers for me.


What in the poopfark makes you think nobody is asking those questions? It has a stupidly high market cap and is majority owned by institutions. Are you silly in the head? Obviously the price is being driven heavily by sentiment and some (provably undeserved) hype over FSD software, but that was one of the dumbest business tab posts in the history of Fark. Seriously.
 
2020-10-22 4:14:47 PM  

stevesporn2000: Likwit: Dryad: Xai: Isn't it strange how we don't do this with other companies? We don't say that Wal-mart made lots of money but we must deduct state and local tax rebates before we can consider it a 'real' profit?

A profit is a profit.

A profit was a profit. If those rebates are stable and you can plan on them in the future, there will be a profit again.
If they won't be there next year, and the business model doesn't change, the profits will suddenly jerk to a stop.
-
Automakers making their own EV's may or may not mean that those EV's compete well against Tesla. What it certainly does mean is the credit purchasing from Tesla stops.
-
tl,dr; Tesla stops getting the large sums of money that make them solvent at the very moment they finally face real competition.

Real competition? Aside from the id.3, which isn't coming to the States, what competition do they have in the next 5 years? Nothing around that price comes close in terms of range it features, and the only manufacturer who has the manufacturing in place is VWAGY. Maybe they Korean brands, but they haven't knocked off Tesla so far. Rivian, GM, and Ford are all putting out $70,000 to $100,000 vehicles. Only thing I can think of is Lordstown, but they'll only compete with the cybertruck. Mercedes EQ could knock off the Model S and X, but Tesla is more focused on the 3 and Y right now.

The EV space sucks in America right now (it's even worse where I live). Tesla has that market for the foreseeable future.

What kind of no-true-Scotsman argument is that? there are literally dozens of electric cars for sale in the US including a Porsche which is comparable to a Model S in every way (ten miles less on range) but far ahead on reliability and quality. https://www.caranddriver.com/​shopping-advice/g32463239/new-ev-model​s-us/


There are "literally dozens" of Tesla-beating vehicles in the US, but you chose the low-volume $200,000 Porsche as a comparison. That's weird.
 
2020-10-22 4:19:12 PM  

Dryad: stevesporn2000: What kind of no-true-Scotsman argument is that? there are literally dozens of electric cars for sale in the US including a Porsche which is comparable to a Model S in every way (ten miles less on range) but far ahead on reliability and quality. https://www.caranddriver.com/​shopping-advice/g32463239/new-ev-model​s-us/

He is like Elon's very own Bagdad Bob. He does this in every Tesla thread, works at a dealership IIRC.


Nope. I just like arguing with Fark's irrational haters. Whether it's Tesla or something else.

I don't work for Tesla. You made that up about me in another thread because you were upset. Remember? When you were jerking your hate-boner to the "unique" story of a Tesla steering wheel falling off, and I pointed out that there were recalls of thousands of vehicles from 4 major manufacturers in the prior two years? Yeah. You called me Baghdad Bob and ran away then too. Go ahead. Run along.
 
2020-10-22 5:02:10 PM  

natazha: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Tesla's biggest future lies in energy storage.  They're zooming ahead in massive battery installs, that part of the company should be equal to the car side in a few years.

Building the megapacks in a factory, including the charger and output inverter introduced huge economies of scale. Tesla recently dropped the price 27%.  The modules weigh about 51,000 lbs, so transportation is easy.  You need more capacity, just keep adding Megapacks.

I'm less optimistic for their solar operation.  Small scale installations will always be dominated by installation costs.


It was a podcast from 2015 or so (BBC Elements, Silicon), but some company was basically leasing panels, so they'd install them and the homeowner wouldn't be locked into a soon to be obsolete efficiency rate panels. Dunno if they're still in business.
 
2020-10-22 6:24:06 PM  

Likwit: What in the poopfark makes you think nobody is asking those questions? It has a stupidly high market cap and is majority owned by institutions. Are you silly in the head? Obviously the price is being driven heavily by sentiment and some (provably undeserved) hype over FSD software, but that was one of the dumbest business tab posts in the history of Fark. Seriously.


Then simply answer the question.
What makes Tesla's current valuation - at something well north of the value of every US and European carmaker COMBINED - a legitimate valuation?
To put it another way, explain the business justification for valuing Tesla at far greater than that of the entire Japanese auto industry.
-
Simply put, you cannot. Its emotional. There is no business argument for that kind of valuation. Period.
 
2020-10-22 6:26:57 PM  
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2020-10-22 6:48:19 PM  

Dryad: Likwit: What in the poopfark makes you think nobody is asking those questions? It has a stupidly high market cap and is majority owned by institutions. Are you silly in the head? Obviously the price is being driven heavily by sentiment and some (provably undeserved) hype over FSD software, but that was one of the dumbest business tab posts in the history of Fark. Seriously.

Then simply answer the question.
What makes Tesla's current valuation - at something well north of the value of every US and European carmaker COMBINED - a legitimate valuation?
To put it another way, explain the business justification for valuing Tesla at far greater than that of the entire Japanese auto industry.
-
Simply put, you cannot. Its emotional. There is no business argument for that kind of valuation. Period.


Now the goalpost is their valuation? How many times has that thing moved now?
 
2020-10-22 7:07:34 PM  

Likwit: Dryad: Likwit: What in the poopfark makes you think nobody is asking those questions? It has a stupidly high market cap and is majority owned by institutions. Are you silly in the head? Obviously the price is being driven heavily by sentiment and some (provably undeserved) hype over FSD software, but that was one of the dumbest business tab posts in the history of Fark. Seriously.

Then simply answer the question.
What makes Tesla's current valuation - at something well north of the value of every US and European carmaker COMBINED - a legitimate valuation?
To put it another way, explain the business justification for valuing Tesla at far greater than that of the entire Japanese auto industry.
-
Simply put, you cannot. Its emotional. There is no business argument for that kind of valuation. Period.

Now the goalpost is their valuation? How many times has that thing moved now?


You can't just keep pointing to Teslas market cap as the 'proof' of their success when pressed on sales figures, then flip on how market cap is completely unimportant when someone calls you on its valuation.
-
Besides, market cap seems to be Musks only benchmark for success, so why shy away from it now when pressed?
Hell, stock price bumps are Teslas main product, cars are just a sideline.
 
2020-10-22 7:08:33 PM  

natazha: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Tesla's biggest future lies in energy storage.  They're zooming ahead in massive battery installs, that part of the company should be equal to the car side in a few years.

Building the megapacks in a factory, including the charger and output inverter introduced huge economies of scale. Tesla recently dropped the price 27%.  The modules weigh about 51,000 lbs, so transportation is easy.  You need more capacity, just keep adding Megapacks.

I'm less optimistic for their solar operation.  Small scale installations will always be dominated by installation costs.


I think solar panels are almost completely a sideshow for them now.  They're shipping 1/5th the volume that Solar City was as an independent company.
 
2020-10-22 7:13:47 PM  

Dryad: Likwit: Dryad: Likwit: What in the poopfark makes you think nobody is asking those questions? It has a stupidly high market cap and is majority owned by institutions. Are you silly in the head? Obviously the price is being driven heavily by sentiment and some (provably undeserved) hype over FSD software, but that was one of the dumbest business tab posts in the history of Fark. Seriously.

Then simply answer the question.
What makes Tesla's current valuation - at something well north of the value of every US and European carmaker COMBINED - a legitimate valuation?
To put it another way, explain the business justification for valuing Tesla at far greater than that of the entire Japanese auto industry.
-
Simply put, you cannot. Its emotional. There is no business argument for that kind of valuation. Period.

Now the goalpost is their valuation? How many times has that thing moved now?

You can't just keep pointing to Teslas market cap as the 'proof' of their success when pressed on sales figures, then flip on how market cap is completely unimportant when someone calls you on its valuation.
-
Besides, market cap seems to be Musks only benchmark for success, so why shy away from it now when pressed?
Hell, stock price bumps are Teslas main product, cars are just a sideline.


I never did that.

In fact, the very post you responded to saying "what explains their valuation besides emotion" I said "the valuation is stupidly high" and "it's largely being driven by sentiment and FSD hype."

Seriously... are you kinda silly in the head?
 
2020-10-22 7:55:18 PM  
I do not know why people are so concerned about Tesla operations.

They can make more money pumping up the stock, selling the shares, and rinsing and repeating. The cars are an afterthought.

If they really wanted to encourage other car manufacturers to produce EVs, they would switch their connectors to J1772. Even that mantra/initiative of evangelizing for EVs rings hollow when you look at their actions.
 
2020-10-22 8:21:05 PM  

2fardownthread: I do not know why people are so concerned about Tesla operations.

They can make more money pumping up the stock, selling the shares, and rinsing and repeating. The cars are an afterthought.

If they really wanted to encourage other car manufacturers to produce EVs, they would switch their connectors to J1772. Even that mantra/initiative of evangelizing for EVs rings hollow when you look at their actions.


J1772? For someone who claims to be a super knowledgeable green millionaire, you sure do have a ton of outdated opinions
 
2020-10-22 8:42:14 PM  

natazha: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Tesla's biggest future lies in energy storage.  They're zooming ahead in massive battery installs, that part of the company should be equal to the car side in a few years.

Building the megapacks in a factory, including the charger and output inverter introduced huge economies of scale. Tesla recently dropped the price 27%.  The modules weigh about 51,000 lbs, so transportation is easy.  You need more capacity, just keep adding Megapacks.

I'm less optimistic for their solar operation.  Small scale installations will always be dominated by installation costs.


However they are like 20% lower install cost than average for their solar line. So I think that has potential as well
 
2020-10-23 10:43:59 AM  
Ahh a Tesla thread wherein people argue about whether the company is profitable and slight attention is paid to a very simple question: is Tesla really more valuable than Toyota, Honda, GM, Volkswagen & Daimler *combined*? No. That is totally absurd.

You can't compare a company whose product is a large, expensive, physical deliverable with Amazon whose business was almost infinitely scalable.
 
2020-10-23 11:32:44 AM  

broomballwilson: Ahh a Tesla thread wherein people argue about whether the company is profitable and slight attention is paid to a very simple question: is Tesla really more valuable than Toyota, Honda, GM, Volkswagen & Daimler *combined*? No. That is totally absurd.

You can't compare a company whose product is a large, expensive, physical deliverable with Amazon whose business was almost infinitely scalable.


Again, you're missing the big picture. Tesla's aim is to give humanity a green future and own the whole thing. They don't just want to be your next car. They want you to own a Tesla and they want to insure it, pay monthly for autonomous driving and data, and pay them to charge it when you're out and about. They want to put the solar panels and battery storage on your house and install the grid storage that powers your town. They want to replace ride hailing services, taxi companies, and revolutionize trucking.

Essentially they're trying to disrupt about 10 industries all at once and create the most dangerous monopoly the world has ever seen. It's actually pretty gross. Whether you think they can do it or not is one thing, but comparing them to traditional car manufacturers is silly. It's silly to compare any disruptive growth company with their traditional rivals unless they stop progressing.
 
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