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(Washington Post)   Political "expert": The Trump crime family should not be prosecuted   (washingtonpost.com) divider line
    More: Dumbass  
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3961 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Oct 2020 at 3:50 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-10-18 6:50:24 PM  

Zulu_as_Kono: Xai: If trump has broken laws then he should be prosecuted.

Well it's a good thing the articles says nothing to the contrary.


The article is an argument against "either criminal trials or truth tribunals, should Biden win," according to... *checks notes*... the article itself and the person who wrote it.
 
2020-10-18 6:52:36 PM  

Altimus Prime: I didn't RTFA, but there are arguments to be made that Presidents shouldn't be prosecuted for conduct tied to their official duties, lest each administration become focused on revenge against their political adversaries.  So things like the Ukraine call, middle east F-35s for peace deals, interference within the CDC -- those all tie in some respect to policy, and you'd be opening many pandora's boxes if prosecution for such things became the norm.  They do that sort of thing in banana republics and cheap autocracies, where the ruling party must always weaken their predecessors to solidify their own hold on power.

Having said that, there are zero arguments to be made that Presidents shouldn't be prosecuted for conduct tied to their own personal enrichment or the enrichment of their families.  Very much the opposite.  We should expect our elected officials to be held to standards of propriety at least as high as those to which we are held.  And conduct by the family of the President not tied to any government function?  Zealous prosecution, always.


Let justice be done.
 
2020-10-18 6:55:42 PM  

emtwo: MarciusDecimus: emtwo: MarciusDecimus: He is not wrong.

Our republic operated  under the notion you had honorable people. Yes, they were always questionably honorable.

We cannot ever hope to have a peaceful transfer of power if the outgoing group fears  prosecution.

By electing a leader we gave them absolution;. I hate trump  but i will not sink the republic for him.

The bastard walks.

Our democracy operates under the principle that all are equal and that all are equally held to account, those in power especially.

There is no reason to believe that holding Trump to account for crimes would lead all future administrations to fear prosecution, except in instances where they acted criminally and such fear is warranted.

There is no reason to believe that a peaceful transition of power would be impossible even in the case that an outgoing admin fears prosecution.

"By electing a leader we gave them absolution," is perhaps the single most anti-democratic and outright anti-American thing I've read on Fark in a long time.

In short, your opinion is nothing but a bunch of useless platitudes with no basis in reality, strung together to create the flimsiest pretense of a cogent thought. At that, it fails miserably.

[Fark user image 425x318]

i could be wrong. I have never claimed to posses the unassailable knowledge of what is absolutely right.

Respectfully, i just  think elecrorates are equally to blame and when we weaponize politics it never ends well.

We will have to see.
,

Trying alleged criminals in court for the crimes of which they are accused is not "weaponizing politics."


Can you name a single president in the last 100 years who has not committed a crime in the view of some group? Or, ever, name one president who, in the view of the opposition, has not committed a single crime.

Yes, there are degrees. But the fact is every president commits crimes. Every single one of them.

Get the bastard for tax evasion or rape, go get him. I HATE Trump too.

God, I WANT to prosecute him for what he did as president . . What I want, and what I feel though, are not always the best options.
 
2020-10-18 6:57:38 PM  

Billy Bathsalt: Altimus Prime: I didn't RTFA, but there are arguments to be made that Presidents shouldn't be prosecuted for conduct tied to their official duties, lest each administration become focused on revenge against their political adversaries.  So things like the Ukraine call, middle east F-35s for peace deals, interference within the CDC -- those all tie in some respect to policy, and you'd be opening many pandora's boxes if prosecution for such things became the norm.  They do that sort of thing in banana republics and cheap autocracies, where the ruling party must always weaken their predecessors to solidify their own hold on power.

Having said that, there are zero arguments to be made that Presidents shouldn't be prosecuted for conduct tied to their own personal enrichment or the enrichment of their families.  Very much the opposite.  We should expect our elected officials to be held to standards of propriety at least as high as those to which we are held.  And conduct by the family of the President not tied to any government function?  Zealous prosecution, always.

Let justice be done.


i agree with this as well. You got him for corruption, prosecute away. There is ample precedent for this.
 
2020-10-18 6:58:03 PM  

MarciusDecimus: emtwo: MarciusDecimus: He is not wrong.

Our republic operated  under the notion you had honorable people. Yes, they were always questionably honorable.

We cannot ever hope to have a peaceful transfer of power if the outgoing group fears  prosecution.

By electing a leader we gave them absolution;. I hate trump  but i will not sink the republic for him.

The bastard walks.

Our democracy operates under the principle that all are equal and that all are equally held to account, those in power especially.

There is no reason to believe that holding Trump to account for crimes would lead all future administrations to fear prosecution, except in instances where they acted criminally and such fear is warranted.

There is no reason to believe that a peaceful transition of power would be impossible even in the case that an outgoing admin fears prosecution.

"By electing a leader we gave them absolution," is perhaps the single most anti-democratic and outright anti-American thing I've read on Fark in a long time.

In short, your opinion is nothing but a bunch of useless platitudes with no basis in reality, strung together to create the flimsiest pretense of a cogent thought. At that, it fails miserably.

[Fark user image 425x318]

i could be wrong. I have never claimed to posses the unassailable knowledge of what is absolutely right.

Respectfully, i just  think elecrorates are equally to blame and when we weaponize politics it never ends well.

We will have to see.
,


The electorate is at a disadvantage. With years of increasingly underfunded education, decades long stagnating wages coupled with inflation leading to insane work weeks with many working multiple jobs, and a popular news station that took people who wanted limited government and fiscal responsibility, and indoctrinated them into believing that their hard lives were because of the opposing political party, that immigrants are responsible for their suffering, that their very freedoms were in jeopardy if the democrats were allowed to carry out any legislation. That their hard earned tax dollars were being used to give easy lives to lazy criminals. And then told that all the other news sources were in on it and were lying to them. For 25 long years they were told this at an increasingly fevered pitch. Fear, hate, crime, oppression, that was what it meant for democrats to rule. An overworked undereducated group of people that barely have time to relax let alone follow the nuance of political gamesmanship, and you think this is their fault? Individually maybe, but the deck has been stacked against them. They want out of their shiat situation and they are expertly pointed at the wrong answers. They're fools, but they weren't the ones that weaponized politics. Politics was weaponized against them. And now we're all paying the price for it.
 
2020-10-18 7:01:24 PM  
You know, i reread my original statement,

It was way over broad and reflected a narrow view. My apologies. I did write it so I own it.

My statements should have been narrowly tailored to presidential policies.
 
2020-10-18 7:03:13 PM  
MarciusDecimus:

Yes, there are degrees. But the fact is every president commits crimes. Every single one of them.

And if they were prosecuted for the crimes they committed while hiding behind the office of the Presidency then maybe the people elected to that office would stop abusing the position so publicly and with zero concern for the consequences of their actions for everyone else.
 
2020-10-18 7:05:56 PM  

Murkanen: MarciusDecimus:

Yes, there are degrees. But the fact is every president commits crimes. Every single one of them.

And if they were prosecuted for the crimes they committed while hiding behind the office of the Presidency then maybe the people elected to that office would stop abusing the position so publicly and with zero concern for the consequences of their actions for everyone else.


It's almost like we punish for crimes as a deterrent.
 
2020-10-18 7:06:56 PM  
Fark that.

Accused
Tried
Prosecuted
Convicted
Assets Seized
Executed

In that order.
 
2020-10-18 7:07:02 PM  

MarciusDecimus: emtwo: MarciusDecimus: emtwo: MarciusDecimus: He is not wrong.

Our republic operated  under the notion you had honorable people. Yes, they were always questionably honorable.

We cannot ever hope to have a peaceful transfer of power if the outgoing group fears  prosecution.

By electing a leader we gave them absolution;. I hate trump  but i will not sink the republic for him.

The bastard walks.

Our democracy operates under the principle that all are equal and that all are equally held to account, those in power especially.

There is no reason to believe that holding Trump to account for crimes would lead all future administrations to fear prosecution, except in instances where they acted criminally and such fear is warranted.

There is no reason to believe that a peaceful transition of power would be impossible even in the case that an outgoing admin fears prosecution.

"By electing a leader we gave them absolution," is perhaps the single most anti-democratic and outright anti-American thing I've read on Fark in a long time.

In short, your opinion is nothing but a bunch of useless platitudes with no basis in reality, strung together to create the flimsiest pretense of a cogent thought. At that, it fails miserably.

[Fark user image 425x318]

i could be wrong. I have never claimed to posses the unassailable knowledge of what is absolutely right.

Respectfully, i just  think elecrorates are equally to blame and when we weaponize politics it never ends well.

We will have to see.
,

Trying alleged criminals in court for the crimes of which they are accused is not "weaponizing politics."

Can you name a single president in the last 100 years who has not committed a crime in the view of some group? Or, ever, name one president who, in the view of the opposition, has not committed a single crime.

Yes, there are degrees. But the fact is every president commits crimes. Every single one of them.

Get the bastard for tax evasion or rape, go get him. I HATE Trump too.

Go ...


Whataboutism as a fundamental political philosophy? No thanks.

The reason why every sitting president is not tried for crimes, despite every president being accused of such, is that there typically isn't sufficient evidence to support a charge, not because of some lofty concern for the state of democracy based on a bunch of speculative platitudes.

Yes, we should be concerned if administrations start prosecuting previous administrations on political grounds and flimsy pretexts. But this is not that.
 
2020-10-18 7:08:10 PM  
I'll just leave this here
i.imgur.comView Full Size

i.imgur.comView Full Size
 
2020-10-18 7:24:37 PM  

bostonguy: Altimus Prime: Badmoodman: I'll trust Atty General Sally Yates.

My one sad about Kamala as VP is that we won't have Kamala as AG.  She'd have been an AG for the ages.

Question: Is there anything that prevents the VP also serving as AG?


We don't need her when we've got Preet Bharara ready to go on the sideline bench.

Put him in a AG and tell him to leave no stone unturned.  He's got the ethics and the motivation to take care of the rest, and do it above board.
 
2020-10-18 7:25:01 PM  

Epoch_Zero: I'll just leave this here
[i.imgur.com image 679x394]
[i.imgur.com image 850x531]


So Trump has almost twice what all the others have in criminal indictments.
Seems low
 
2020-10-18 7:37:42 PM  
I mean the best way to run a society is to not prosecute your leaders when they leave office, because they didn't commit any crimes.
Since that's not an option, we have to go with the next best way.

Certainly the worst way to run a society is to not prosecute your leaders when they leave office even though they did commit crimes.
 
2020-10-18 7:41:32 PM  

Ambivalence: The only lesson to be learned by letting trump and criminal republicans off the hook is that the law doesn't apply to the powerful.


This is why they shouldn't have let Nixon off the hook. It allowed Ford, Reagan, and everyone else to commit one crime after another and let Bill Barr get them off the hook.
 
2020-10-18 7:42:45 PM  

not enough beer: Badmoodman: I'll trust Atty General Sally Yates.

[Fark user image image 425x267]

I prefer this gentleman.


Seconded. Thirded.
Googol'ed.
 
2020-10-18 8:19:11 PM  

MarciusDecimus: He is not wrong.

Our republic operated  under the notion you had honorable people. Yes, they were always questionably honorable.

We cannot ever hope to have a peaceful transfer of power if the outgoing group fears  prosecution.

By electing a leader we gave them absolution;. I hate trump  but i will not sink the republic for him.

The bastard walks.


Trump does not need to approve the transfer of power. He does need to die in prison as a lesson to future ambitious crooks.
 
2020-10-18 8:23:40 PM  

Xai: If trump has broken laws then he should be prosecuted.

No man is above the law.


That's the theory, any way. I think we all know better.
 
2020-10-18 8:24:35 PM  

emtwo: She literally ends her piece by stating that she is arguing against "either criminal trials or a truth tribunal, should Biden win."


That's some nifty selective quoting there.
 
2020-10-18 8:27:59 PM  

Zulu_as_Kono: Mr. carrot: //dnrtfa. Was it good?
///I'm angry at what I assume he wrote.

She wrote that the crimes of the Trump family should be handled by the courts, not a special Truth and Reconciliation Commission. And somehow this is upsetting to people.

/not sure when "Historian" became "Political 'Expert'", complete with scare quotes
//yeah I got a bit of a geek crush on Jill Lepore
///fight me


There needs to be an investigation so that when they write legislation that will end up being called the "Trump Statutes," they can focus on what will be in the Trump Statutes. Merely nailing them for individual crimes defined by current laws won't point out anything.
 
2020-10-18 8:28:20 PM  

Zulu_as_Kono: emtwo: She literally ends her piece by stating that she is arguing against "either criminal trials or a truth tribunal, should Biden win."

That's some nifty selective quoting there.


Try this one on for size:

But the Trump administration is not Nazi Germany, nor is it a nation defeated in war. Its wrongdoing - a litany that includes corruption, fomenting insurrection, separating parents and children at the border, and violently suppressing political dissent - should be investigated by journalists, chronicled by historians and, in some instances, tried in ordinary courts.

I bolded the pertinent parts for you, in case you have difficulty following along, or don't understand antecedents or something.
 
2020-10-18 8:32:48 PM  

mofa: There needs to be an investigation so that when they write legislation that will end up being called the "Trump Statutes," they can focus on what will be in the Trump Statutes.


That's an idea.
 
2020-10-18 8:38:13 PM  

emtwo: Zulu_as_Kono: Xai: If trump has broken laws then he should be prosecuted.

Well it's a good thing the articles says nothing to the contrary.

The article is an argument against "either criminal trials or truth tribunals, should Biden win," according to... *checks notes*... the article itself and the person who wrote it.


Just because you say the same thing twice doesn't make it true.
 
2020-10-18 8:43:45 PM  

Malenfant: MarciusDecimus: He is not wrong.

Our republic operated  under the notion you had honorable people. Yes, they were always questionably honorable.

We cannot ever hope to have a peaceful transfer of power if the outgoing group fears  prosecution.

By electing a leader we gave them absolution;. I hate trump  but i will not sink the republic for him.

The bastard walks.

Trump does not need to approve the transfer of power. He does need to die in prison as a lesson to future ambitious crooks.


I'm also good with him being tried, convicted, and executed for treason.
 
2020-10-18 8:46:32 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


Now including criminal charges against former presidents!
 
2020-10-18 8:57:46 PM  
Worrying that the other side will retaliate with unjustified prosecutions and that such actions will lead to the downfall of the US don't seem to understand that allowing people to get away with breaking the law is just as damaging, if not more damaging, to the nation, because the unprosecuted usurper will show future usurpers they are free and clear to abuse their opponents with even less concern for consequences than sham prosecutions, which still have to worry about the next set of prosecutions.

The sin has already been committed. You either allow that sin to be repeated, or you do not and RISK a new, different, sin. 

It's a hypothetical problem when you have an actual one to deal with.
 
2020-10-18 9:11:17 PM  

Zulu_as_Kono: emtwo: She literally ends her piece by stating that she is arguing against "either criminal trials or a truth tribunal, should Biden win."

That's some nifty selective quoting there.


Directly quoting the conclusion of her piece is too "selective" for you?

[eyeroll.gif]
 
2020-10-18 9:12:37 PM  
If the past few decades of criminal presidents seeing no consequences didn't tell you he was going to get away, the reaction of liberals when he got covid should have made you realize they're going to rehabilitate him like Reagan and the Bushes.
 
2020-10-18 9:15:07 PM  

Ishkur: Badmoodman: I'll trust Atty General Sally Yates.

And Second Atty General Preet Bharara.

/cuz you're gonna need more than one


he's the effective version of ken Starr. He's the special prosecutor or whatever, full time leading the Rico takedown. Paperwork is probably started.
 
2020-10-18 9:20:33 PM  

Target Builder: Come January I expect we'll be hearing a LOT of  "we need to move past partisan politics and Heal As A Nation"


Ok, we'll prosecute everyone who broke the law without worrying about their political affiliation.

It is the only way to heal the nation.

/Funny, all these guys being indicted are Republicans.
 
2020-10-18 9:52:24 PM  
So... it begins.

Making the case for sweeping Trumps crimes under a rug in the name of healing and national unity and moving forward and all that other trite, untrue and predictable crap.

They let Nixon slide.
They let Reagan slide.
They let HW slide.
They let W slide.

And now the powers that be who dictate the parameters of the national debate are trying to sweep Trump's crimes under the rug.

I could say a lot of things here but I will just note that doing that this time would be a big mistake.
 
2020-10-18 10:05:18 PM  
Allow me to rebut.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-10-18 10:08:28 PM  
He's probably lost track of all the favors he bought over the years - and somebody as crudely transactional as Trump doesn't cut a check for a politician unless he's assured of getting something in return.

So go ahead. Haul him in. Discovery will be a farking blast.

Let Preet Bharara handle it. He has unfinished business in New York.
 
2020-10-18 10:09:03 PM  

neongoats: This is what Trump garbage are spreading around now.

While crying that lefties aren't civil to them.

[Fark user image 253x137]


Fark user imageView Full Size


What party is torturing innocent little girls again?
 
2020-10-18 10:20:36 PM  

Kirablue42: neongoats: This is what Trump garbage are spreading around now.

While crying that lefties aren't civil to them.

[Fark user image 253x137]

[Fark user image 850x571]

What party is torturing innocent little girls again?


They took her shoe laces because that is what you do when you arrest an adult.  They didn't have a protocol for arresting a child so they went with what they knew.
 
2020-10-18 10:34:13 PM  

INTERTRON: GrizzlyPouch: Trump is accused of being compromised and using his office for personal enrichment, but it's all speculation.

According to who?  You?  lol


Do you have a link to something showing any evidence of Trump using his position for financial gain?  not speculation, actual evidence.

According to the link I posted from the NYT, Burisma sought out individuals with political influence that they could give money to for friendlier treatment.  That's not my words it's the New York Times'

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/us​/​politics/biden-son-ukraine.html?smid=n​ytcore-ios-share

And then they hired Hunter Biden and paid him 500k per year for a job he didn't have to show up for (he doesn't even speak Ukrainian)

And THEN Joe Biden went on tv and said I told them to fire that prosecutor (the one that was investigating Burisma) or you aren't getting your billion dollars.

I mean that's pretty bad.  Don't you think?

Especially when you consider Trump got impeached for saying on a phone call, hey do you think you could look into this?
 
2020-10-18 10:50:00 PM  

Sandelaphon: If the past few decades of criminal presidents seeing no consequences didn't tell you he was going to get away, the reaction of liberals when he got covid should have made you realize they're going to rehabilitate him like Reagan and the Bushes.


They let Dubya get away with war crimes. Nothing is going to happen to Trump. He'll spend the rest of his days in comfort at his Scottish golf club.
 
2020-10-18 10:51:49 PM  

Zulu_as_Kono: Zulu_as_Kono: emtwo: She literally ends her piece by stating that she is arguing against "either criminal trials or a truth tribunal, should Biden win."

That's some nifty selective quoting there.

Try this one on for size:

But the Trump administration is not Nazi Germany, nor is it a nation defeated in war. Its wrongdoing - a litany that includes corruption, fomenting insurrection, separating parents and children at the border, and violently suppressing political dissent - should be investigated by journalists, chronicled by historians and, in some instances, tried in ordinary courts.

I bolded the pertinent parts for you, in case you have difficulty following along, or don't understand antecedents or something.


Wikipedia would handle that statement this way:

should be investigated by journalists, chronicled by historians and, in some instances(which?), tried in ordinary courts.

Equivocation doesn't strengthen an argument, but it does make holding the opinion writer to their opinion more difficult. Okay, she didn't necessarily say NO court trial in EVERY instance. She just laid out a multi-paragraph argument about how you can't have truth and justice at the same time and it's more important that we take stock of ourselves than hold anyone accountable.

You're admiring obfuscation for making it easier for you to ignore the bits of the article that seem dumb. Nice of the author to do that for you.
 
2020-10-18 11:48:12 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: Do you have a link to something showing any evidence of Trump using his position for financial gain?


Literally every time he golfs.
 
2020-10-19 12:15:14 AM  

emtwo: rga184: I'd Biden doesn't go after him in the name of "healing the nation so we can move forward and come together" bullshiat, I swear to god I will lose my shiat.

I would highly suggest that you begin preparing to lose your shiat.

[Fark user image image 425x318]


Oh, I'm not that optimistic.  I give it 60/40 Biden lets him walk to heal the nation.

Although his answer at the town hall is hopeful.  He might just pick AG based on who didn't want to go after Trump et al.
 
2020-10-19 12:52:19 AM  

rga184: emtwo: rga184: I'd Biden doesn't go after him in the name of "healing the nation so we can move forward and come together" bullshiat, I swear to god I will lose my shiat.

I would highly suggest that you begin preparing to lose your shiat.

[Fark user image image 425x318]

Oh, I'm not that optimistic.  I give it 60/40 Biden lets him walk to heal the nation.

Although his answer at the town hall is hopeful.  He might just pick AG based on who didn't want to go after Trump et al.


There's the matter of indicting or not but there is also the matter of how much he may owe in taxes.  I think the issue may be, pay your f$cking taxes or we indict.

Discretion in arbitrary criminal charges if fine and dandy (to heal the nation) but you can't let him get away with stealing money from the country.

/and Trump won't have the money to pay
 
2020-10-19 10:36:04 AM  
FTA: But the Trump administration is not Nazi Germany, nor is it a nation defeated in war. Its wrongdoing - a litany that includes corruption, fomenting insurrection, separating parents and children at the border, and violently suppressing political dissent - should be investigated by journalists, chronicled by historians and, in some instances, tried in ordinary courts.
[...]
None of the conditions of a truth and reconciliation commission apply to Trump's four years in the White House.
[...]
American historian Kevin Baker wrote in the New Republic two years ago. "Americans must, at some point, decide on which truths we still find self-evident. If anyone has a better suggestion than truth and reconciliation, have at it." That better suggestion is the ordinary working of justice, the strengthening of democratic institutions and the writing of history, over time, through the study of carefully preserved records.

...which seems pretty much the opposite of what Subby's headline suggests.

FTA: In the end, the strongest argument against either criminal trials or a truth tribunal, should Biden win, is that it would let the Democratic Party and every other institution that is not the Republican Party off the hook for driving the nation into a flaming cauldron.

Yes, there's an awful lot that the Washington Post, New York Times, CNN, FaceBook, Twitter, and so on could have done. (As an aside, Drew deserves at least small kudos for introducing a custom Fark logo for Presidential tweets. It's not a lot, but it's something.) Contrariwise, I'm not seeing much more that the Democratic Party could have done since President Trump's inauguration.
 
2020-10-19 11:25:00 AM  

mrshowrules: rga184: emtwo: rga184: I'd Biden doesn't go after him in the name of "healing the nation so we can move forward and come together" bullshiat, I swear to god I will lose my shiat.

I would highly suggest that you begin preparing to lose your shiat.

[Fark user image image 425x318]

Oh, I'm not that optimistic.  I give it 60/40 Biden lets him walk to heal the nation.

Although his answer at the town hall is hopeful.  He might just pick AG based on who didn't want to go after Trump et al.

There's the matter of indicting or not but there is also the matter of how much he may owe in taxes.  I think the issue may be, pay your f$cking taxes or we indict.

Discretion in arbitrary criminal charges if fine and dandy (to heal the nation) but you can't let him get away with stealing money from the country.

/and Trump won't have the money to pay


The scandal there is that so much of what Trump did was legalized sleaze - and whatever may have crossed a line, well, that's why he's had such a keen interest in donating to state attorneys general - so that they look the other way.

Many people who draw water in Washington quietly enjoy the tax code status quo that Trump exploits so loudly.
 
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