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(Washington Post)   Political "expert": The Trump crime family should not be prosecuted   (washingtonpost.com) divider line
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3960 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Oct 2020 at 3:50 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-10-18 4:46:52 PM  
Go fark yourself Washington Post.
 
2020-10-18 4:47:34 PM  
It needs to be as clear as possible the the Biden administration isn't prosecuting the Trump Family for political reasons or political decisions.  But the AG needs free reign to identify and prosecute for all of the other stuff. The financial crimes, especially.  There's plenty to send them all to prison for damn near ever without it appearing to be vengeance by a new president.
 
2020-10-18 4:48:22 PM  
DNRTFA, but there's a genuine case for not pressing charges against at least Trump himself---assuming he is even competent to stand trial. The less tyrants have to lose personally by stepping aside with no fuss, the more likely they are to do the decent thing.

Consider that most of the leaders of the German Democratic Republic only did a few years in jail, and the senile Erich Honecker none at all. And Trump never did get his wall---unless you count the closure of the Canadian border to non-essential travel.

Honecker died in exile in Chile, cared for by his daughter till his death. If Mr. and Mrs. Kushner decide to leave for Israel, and take Daddy with them, with the understanding that all three will stay gone and out of American politics, wish them bon voyage.

Trump has earned the contempt of all decent people, and a place in history as one of the worst presidents the United States ever had. He hasn't earned martyrdom.
 
2020-10-18 4:48:46 PM  
Looks like the Prez isn't the only cornered animal; get ready for a lot of this from the Republican Party in short order. It's going to be eerily similar to a serial killer, hearing the guilty verdict in court, giving puppy dog eyes to the jury to try to get a nicer sentence. And the thing is, it's worked before, so Republicans have every reason to try it again.

Mitch will say, "The Democrats need to work with us." Biden may honestly wish he were able to, but it's all in bad faith, so the only thing to do, really is steamroll him--or get steamrolled, like Obama too often did, frankly.

But that's not all. "Let's bring this country back together," will be used as a plea to try and avoid a number of prosecutions. Nunes, Johnson, Pence, various Trumps, Barr, and quite a few others, are all probably worthy of prosecution for crimes the intelligence community probably knows a thing or two about. "Think of the country, though!"

And the DOJ needs to prosecute them. They need to go to prison. Every. Single. One. Examples need to be made, and it can't just be Flynn and the others who've already pled guilty.
 
2020-10-18 4:50:43 PM  

Super Chronic: You may disagree with this stance but don't put "expert" in quotes. (Well, I guess I just did, but you know what I'm saying.) Jill Lepore is no joke. She's one of the few writers in the country I'll go out of my way to read. Although her latest book, These Truths, is pretty daunting at nearly 1,000 pages.


Being prolific is not the same as being an "expert."

See for example: my collection of posts on Fark.

The thesis of this opinion piece is that democracy only works if those in power are completely immune to prosecution of any sort, except that which occurs in the court of public opinion. That is utter farking dogshiat that should immediately dispel any notions of expertise on the subject.

I don't know anything about this lady except what was included in her byline, but I see no evidence that she's an expert on any subject besides ignorant bloviating.
 
2020-10-18 4:51:03 PM  
Nuts. The Trumps don't care about history. They care about money and power. We already know that people who only care about money and power are bad, The Trumps need to be driven from power.

Pour encourager les autres.
 
2020-10-18 4:51:29 PM  
In a just world, Trump wouldn't even be on the ballot because most of the Republican party would be in jail.
 
2020-10-18 4:51:35 PM  

edmo: There is precedent in the form of Nixon that can be debated. The rest of them? Lock them up.


Trump makes Nixon look like a farking boy scout. I think if Nixon were alive to see what Trump was doing now, he'd vomit in terror.
 
2020-10-18 4:51:41 PM  
This is not about political revenge. This is about administration of justice. If Trump et al have done nothing wrong, they have nothing to fear.

No one, not even the President, is above the law.
 
2020-10-18 4:52:16 PM  

mofa: Of we don't punish Trump, there might not be a future (U.S.) history.


It's not just punishing him. It's sealing every single legal loophole he exploited and enforcing an actual checks and balances system that the President must answer for his decisions.
 
2020-10-18 4:53:43 PM  
They have to prosecuted as a warning to the next group
 
2020-10-18 4:53:46 PM  

codergirl42: RICO


Break it all up and force it in to conservatorship as the entire family sits in prison.
 
2020-10-18 4:54:14 PM  

mrparks: emtwo:

How is a op-ed from Jill Lepore a clear signal from Joe?


What does the part that specifically describes Joe Biden's position on the matter have to do with Joe Biden's position on the matter?

Truly, a question for the ages.
 
2020-10-18 4:54:19 PM  
Remember Trump* is the guy who suggested that we not only kill terrorists but their families as well.
Remember that?
Seems so long ago.
Yes he must be brought to justice.
He's gone so far over the line that we have no choice but to re-establish what is and what is not acceptable. We must codify it in law, and Trump* must be made an example.
 
2020-10-18 4:55:26 PM  
While video of tRump sacrificing a goat on the altar, raping three nuns, and setting fire to the vestry has been authenticated it has also been reported that Biden farted quite loudly in the same church only two weeks previously, leaving voters questioning the piety of both candidates.

/ BSAB "investigative journalism" ain't gonna help shiat
 
2020-10-18 4:56:33 PM  
Betsy DeVos needs to be prosecuted for bioterrorism.
 
2020-10-18 4:58:48 PM  

Catlenfell: They have to prosecuted as a warning to the next group


Yep. If Nixon did some time, we might not be dealing with an entirely-lawless Republican party today.
There have to be consequences for lawlessness.
 
2020-10-18 4:59:16 PM  
"Be reasonable, you don't know what he'll really do when in office, give him a chance."

"Be reasonable, you can't prosecute a sitting President."

"Be reasonable, going after a political opponent immediately after a transition of power would be unseemly."

"Be reasonable, it's been years. He's moved on and built a respectable life; why can't you move on too?"

"Be reasonable, the man has just died. Can't you let his loved ones mourn before scoring cheap political points?"

"Be reasonable, he was a man of his time. Things were different then; we can't judge the past with modern morality."
 
2020-10-18 5:01:00 PM  

pkjun: "Be reasonable, you don't know what he'll really do when in office, give him a chance."

"Be reasonable, you can't prosecute a sitting President."

"Be reasonable, going after a political opponent immediately after a transition of power would be unseemly."

"Be reasonable, it's been years. He's moved on and built a respectable life; why can't you move on too?"

"Be reasonable, the man has just died. Can't you let his loved ones mourn before scoring cheap political points?"

"Be reasonable, he was a man of his time. Things were different then; we can't judge the past with modern morality."


Counterpoint: fark that.
 
2020-10-18 5:05:06 PM  
Aaron Burr had to flee. Burr should be our model not Nixon.
 
2020-10-18 5:06:30 PM  

TeddyRooseveltsMustache: edmo: There is precedent in the form of Nixon that can be debated. The rest of them? Lock them up.

Trump makes Nixon look like a farking boy scout. I think if Nixon were alive to see what Trump was doing now, he'd vomit in terror.


Nah, Nixon wasn't above doing anything that Trump has done. Nixon just didn't believe he could do it so brazenly and get away with it.

And honestly, Nixon probably could have gotten away with everything that Trump has, had he only known. The Republicans were as much party-before-country then as they are now.
 
2020-10-18 5:07:52 PM  
TFA begs the question, if the Nazis were unable to fully push the holocaust, if they only killed a few hundred thousand or a million or so, should they have been prosecuted?

Or too, if they hadn't but, given what we know, were surely going to?

That's where we are. The Trump terror organization was not as bad as the Nazis, true, but not because they weren't going to be, and still could be if we don't stop them.

This needs to be fully investigated and prosecuted to the hilt.
 
2020-10-18 5:08:21 PM  

Super Chronic: You may disagree with this stance but don't put "expert" in quotes. (Well, I guess I just did, but you know what I'm saying.) Jill Lepore is no joke. She's one of the few writers in the country I'll go out of my way to read. Although her latest book, These Truths, is pretty daunting at nearly 1,000 pages.


did you go out of your way to read her terrible take on the sentencing of serial rapist Dr. Larry Nassar?

she is predisposed to protect the powerful, the institutions that benefit her and everything establishment. she belittles sexual assault survivors and waxes about the good old days of people knowing their place. she insults the average person at the expense of those she feels educational and cultural kinship with.

she's your standard privileged academic with a blind spot as big as Harvard University Memorial Hall. writers like her at aging flagships are a dime a dozen.
 
2020-10-18 5:10:23 PM  
Donald Trump must be prosecuted simply for this country to start its recovery. If he doesn't then there will be a wound that never heals.
 
2020-10-18 5:10:48 PM  

Altimus Prime: I didn't RTFA, but there are arguments to be made that Presidents shouldn't be prosecuted for conduct tied to their official duties, lest each administration become focused on revenge against their political adversaries.  So things like the Ukraine call, middle east F-35s for peace deals, interference within the CDC -- those all tie in some respect to policy, and you'd be opening many pandora's boxes if prosecution for such things became the norm.  They do that sort of thing in banana republics and cheap autocracies, where the ruling party must always weaken their predecessors to solidify their own hold on power.

Having said that, there are zero arguments to be made that Presidents shouldn't be prosecuted for conduct tied to their own personal enrichment or the enrichment of their families.  Very much the opposite.  We should expect our elected officials to be held to standards of propriety at least as high as those to which we are held.  And conduct by the family of the President not tied to any government function?  Zealous prosecution, always.


You make a very good point in that first paragraph.  Yes, it's obvious he did shady stuff.  Yes, it was wrong.  But it was in the course of his capacity as President.  And it would set a precedent for the opposition to bring charges on every damn thing they don't like, simply because it appears to be the same.

So any effort to go after that stuff, especially if brought up by the opposition party would not help matters.  As badly as we'd like to see that, it's probably not going to happen.

But we need to tighten the screws a little bit to prevent that sort of thing happening again.  Like, actual rules that are enforceable, for a start.
 
2020-10-18 5:11:30 PM  
Crimes are not partisan. Prosecute crimes. Do not prosecute politics.

There's a difference and it's obvious.

This whole thing about "not setting a precedent of a new administration prosecuting the previous" is only valid if actual crimes were not committed. Trump prosecuting Obama would have been a politically-motivated witch hunt because Obama didn't do anything that broke the law. Prosecuting Trump for treason, fraud, slander, libel, Hatch Act violations, and theft in office isn't political; those are crimes no matter who commits them.
 
2020-10-18 5:13:14 PM  

king of vegas: Donald Trump must be prosecuted simply for this country to start its recovery. If he doesn't then there will be a wound that never heals.


Reconstruction 2: Electric Boogaloo
 
2020-10-18 5:13:30 PM  

Super Chronic: You may disagree with this stance but don't put "expert" in quotes. (Well, I guess I just did, but you know what I'm saying.) Jill Lepore is no joke. She's one of the few writers in the country I'll go out of my way to read. Although her latest book, These Truths, is pretty daunting at nearly 1,000 pages.


Authoritative people whom we agree with give us these opportunities to reevaluate them occasionally, and if you're a Jill Lepore fan, you should be grateful. Don't dismiss a disagreement as a one-off. Check your author/analyst, and check yourself. If you can figure out where the problem is, sometimes you can walk away from these situations with evidence that you haven't drunk any Kool-Aid and, even though you can agree with someone a lot, you're still paying enough attention to know when you don't, and brave enough to say so.

What we have here is kind of an equivocating mess. Not BSAB (which is something else people say so they don't have to check themselves) but an idea that truth and punishment are mutually exclusive. Which kinda goes against the foundations of the justice system that the author claims to think is still working. Seeking to punish can interfere with finding the truth, but that doesn't mean the first step to finding the truth must be to rule out punishment.

There's also no guarantee that if we rule out punishment we'll get the truth, or do any introspection. What's likely to happen is the same thing that's been happening: we get our peaceful transition of power, nobody follows up, and after a couple cycles somebody shows up to break even more rules with impunity. You can plot a line from Nixon through Reagan and both Bushes to Trump, and it shows an increasing disregard for norms and the rule of law. We've kept our peaceful transitions of power, but we're losing more structural integrity each time.

We don't have a lot of incentive to make an accounting of ourselves, or anyone else. Punishment vs. no punishment doesn't change that no matter what side you come down on. We might jail a few people and call it fixed, or we might not and say it's fine. Either way, it's easier to embrace normalcy after a scary shock like this and go back to sleep.

We do need to turn around and look at what got us here - everything cannot be blamed on Trump alone - but TFA doesn't provide a mechanism for doing that, just for letting another batch of known bad actors go.
 
2020-10-18 5:15:33 PM  
Death penalty for Hatch Act violations.

Death penalty for emoluments violations, no baloney memo protections. Emolument violations need to be the quickest way for a president to get self farked out of office.

Codify them clearly into enforceable laws.
 
2020-10-18 5:16:05 PM  

Giant Clown Shoe: This twitter thread explains why this ivory tower elitist is exactly wrong.

https://twitter.com/andrew_seal/status​/1317840043688546304

unrolled

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/131​7840043688546304.html

worth the read



There is a cost in not smashing up the political power of people who have seriously abused that power.
 
2020-10-18 5:17:43 PM  
Harvard University professor just means moron with impeccable credentials.
 
2020-10-18 5:18:43 PM  

Xai: If trump has broken laws then he should be prosecuted.

No man is above the law.


Up until today, presidents are above the law.  Or have been.  They are clearly above the law.

If we don't prosecute Trump, we will cement this fact into precedent, and no future president or staffer will think twice about doing heinous, illegal, and corrupt things.

I'd Biden doesn't go after him in the name of "healing the nation so we can move forward and come together" bullshiat, I swear to god I will lose my shiat.
 
2020-10-18 5:19:30 PM  
Trump is accused of being compromised and using his office for personal enrichment, but it's all speculation.

Meanwhile here are some known facts:

Hunter Biden had a 50k per month salary with Burisma.....despite no background in their industry and no connections to the country.

Oh, btw.  It's documented fact Burisma was trying to get close to well connected individuals with the literal purpose of trying to influence investigations being done on them.  From the NYT:
" Hunter Biden and his American business partners were part of a broad effort by Burisma to bring in well-connected Democrats during a period when the company was facing investigations backed not just by domestic Ukrainian forces but by officials in the Obama administration."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/us​/​politics/biden-son-ukraine.html?smid=n​ytcore-ios-share

But apparently this is a non issue for the media.  How is this possible?

This white wash on Hunter Biden is iterally what propaganda looks like.

"Propaganda is communication that is used primarily to influence an audience and further an agenda"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propa​g​anda
 
2020-10-18 5:20:41 PM  
One does not reconcile with malignant tumors.
 
2020-10-18 5:21:38 PM  
The best way to end a witch hunt is to burn the witches.

Every last one.
 
2020-10-18 5:21:50 PM  

Giant Clown Shoe: Super Chronic: You may disagree with this stance but don't put "expert" in quotes. (Well, I guess I just did, but you know what I'm saying.) Jill Lepore is no joke. She's one of the few writers in the country I'll go out of my way to read. Although her latest book, These Truths, is pretty daunting at nearly 1,000 pages.

did you go out of your way to read her terrible take on the sentencing of serial rapist Dr. Larry Nassar?

she is predisposed to protect the powerful, the institutions that benefit her and everything establishment. she belittles sexual assault survivors and waxes about the good old days of people knowing their place. she insults the average person at the expense of those she feels educational and cultural kinship with.

she's your standard privileged academic with a blind spot as big as Harvard University Memorial Hall. writers like her at aging flagships are a dime a dozen.


That's the problem with those that use past history to argue that we should let bygones be bygones, instead of looking at what is actually happening and the absolute need to deal with it or worse will end up happening as time goes on.

If we actually listening to Ms. Lepore and didn't do anything against the criminal enterprise currently running the nation, we'll look more like the former USSR should a much more savvy, charismatic, and intelligent right winger end up gaining the Presidency.

Much like the fact that nothing was truly done to deal with the Confederacy after the Civil War, to do nothing and take no legal actions against the Trump administration will prove that we as a nation don't have the guts or strength to do what is necessary, even if it's considered to be uncomfortable for a subsection of the populace.
 
2020-10-18 5:22:00 PM  

rga184: I'd Biden doesn't go after him in the name of "healing the nation so we can move forward and come together" bullshiat, I swear to god I will lose my shiat.


I would highly suggest that you begin preparing to lose your shiat.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-10-18 5:22:31 PM  
GrizzlyPouch:


OK, polyp.
 
2020-10-18 5:22:51 PM  
Expect a hell of a lot more of this pathetic articles in the days and weeks to come leading up to January 20th. I expect by end of year there will be opinion pieces that will amount to pure begging. Couple that with the ever increasing op-eds that best be summed up as "I was against him all along, I am innocent, please don't prosecute me, just ignore the blood on my hands"
 
2020-10-18 5:25:40 PM  

nullandvoid744: Fiat justitia ruat caelum.


Bears Bears Bears...
If criminals getting away with crimes of the Trumps' magnitude is required for the state to survive then is should fail. They should be prosecuted at least as hard as some black kid with a joint.
 
2020-10-18 5:26:48 PM  
Only if you want future presidents to do the same. To not prosecute would practically be a job advert for criminal presidents looking to profit off the presidency. I can't imagine anything stupider other than re-electing trump.
 
2020-10-18 5:27:50 PM  

Xai: If trump has broken laws then he should be prosecuted.

No man is above the law.


We must hold him accountable regardless of the violence that will ensue. It is coming regardless.
 
2020-10-18 5:32:27 PM  
Lock Him up!
 
2020-10-18 5:32:31 PM  

Glorious Golden Ass: Pence says he has faith in our justice system.  So, put Trump on trial and let the jury decide.  If he's convicted, and he really believes he's a saint, he can let history vindicate him.


So long as there is at least one Republican on the jury, he will be acquitted.
 
2020-10-18 5:34:14 PM  
FTA: "None of the conditions of a truth and reconciliation commission apply to Trump's four years in the White House."


I guess you're about to find out, having previously farked around.
 
2020-10-18 5:36:16 PM  

GrizzlyPouch: Trump is accused of being compromised and using his office for personal enrichment, but it's all speculation.


According to who?  You?  lol
 
2020-10-18 5:36:26 PM  
Because nothing says "No one should ever do that again" better than not holding anyone accountable.
 
2020-10-18 5:36:54 PM  

Xai: If trump has broken laws then he should be prosecuted.

No man is above the law.


Most wealthy people are above the law.
Haven't you noticed that yet?

Whos going to hold a trump accountable?
The Cops?
You?
 
2020-10-18 5:38:46 PM  
Every day for the past decade, the differences between WaPo and NYPo have become smaller and smaller.
 
2020-10-18 5:39:57 PM  

Aetre: Looks like the Prez isn't the only cornered animal; get ready for a lot of this from the Republican Party in short order. It's going to be eerily similar to a serial killer, hearing the guilty verdict in court, giving puppy dog eyes to the jury to try to get a nicer sentence. And the thing is, it's worked before, so Republicans have every reason to try it again.

Mitch will say, "The Democrats need to work with us." Biden may honestly wish he were able to, but it's all in bad faith, so the only thing to do, really is steamroll him--or get steamrolled, like Obama too often did, frankly.

But that's not all. "Let's bring this country back together," will be used as a plea to try and avoid a number of prosecutions. Nunes, Johnson, Pence, various Trumps, Barr, and quite a few others, are all probably worthy of prosecution for crimes the intelligence community probably knows a thing or two about. "Think of the country, though!"

And the DOJ needs to prosecute them. They need to go to prison. Every. Single. One. Examples need to be made, and it can't just be Flynn and the others who've already pled guilty.


They need to respond with "indeed, let's bring this nation back together, with liberty and justice for all. With that in mind, your trial begins next Monday."
 
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