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(CBC)   Lobsters...serious business   (cbc.ca) divider line
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4164 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Oct 2020 at 2:13 PM (13 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

 
2020-10-17 2:17:53 PM  
33 votes:
And of course the RCMP stand by while a bunch of white fisherman terrorize First Nations people. The RCMP was formed as a paramilitary organization to oppress Canada's Native population.

#ACAB
 
2020-10-17 3:49:11 PM  
17 votes:

Leper Canuck: <sigh>
First Nations tribe....
Get a settlement from the Government in the form of cash and free lobster licenses
Proceed to catch lobster out of season, including undersize and ones with eggs
Sell the catch to Chinese companies
Dispose of what they can't sell by dumping it in the forest to rot
Sell access to their boats to non-native people to fish out of season
When the regular season opens, use their legitimate licenses to fish a second time

Canadian fishermen get fed up with the Government avoiding any confrontation and torch a Chinese lobster pound whose sole purpose is to purchase and process out of season and undersize/illegal lobster.

Progressive allies get outraged, blame racism/colonialism (of course) and claim "it's only a few lobster" (it's not) and "they are entitled to special treatment and exemption from the DFO" (debatable and untrue)


<citation needed.jpg>
 
2020-10-17 2:50:15 PM  
17 votes:
There's a big problem that affects all of the lobster fishermen, white and native alike: the dominant market position of the companies that purchase lobster and thus can set the market. Naturally, the white fisherman blame the problem on the few native fisherman who exercise their treaty rights.

Racism: Preventing You From Scrutinizing Abhorrent Market Forces Since, I Dunno, 2000 BC Probably.
 
2020-10-17 4:28:50 PM  
16 votes:
For a frame of reference, I read the normal industry runs 360000+ traps in the regular season. The First Nations runs 150.

This is blatant, shameful racism that makes me embarrassed to be Canadian.
 
2020-10-17 3:22:16 PM  
16 votes:
<sigh>
First Nations tribe....
Get a settlement from the Government in the form of cash and free lobster licenses
Proceed to catch lobster out of season, including undersize and ones with eggs
Sell the catch to Chinese companies
Dispose of what they can't sell by dumping it in the forest to rot
Sell access to their boats to non-native people to fish out of season
When the regular season opens, use their legitimate licenses to fish a second time

Canadian fishermen get fed up with the Government avoiding any confrontation and torch a Chinese lobster pound whose sole purpose is to purchase and process out of season and undersize/illegal lobster.

Progressive allies get outraged, blame racism/colonialism (of course) and claim "it's only a few lobster" (it's not) and "they are entitled to special treatment and exemption from the DFO" (debatable and untrue)
 
2020-10-17 2:30:19 PM  
16 votes:
Just more Canadians treating First Nations folks like seals.
 
2020-10-17 4:05:12 PM  
15 votes:

Leper Canuck: <sigh>
First Nations tribe....
Get a settlement from the Government in the form of cash and free lobster licenses
Proceed to catch lobster out of season, including undersize and ones with eggs
Sell the catch to Chinese companies
Dispose of what they can't sell by dumping it in the forest to rot
Sell access to their boats to non-native people to fish out of season
When the regular season opens, use their legitimate licenses to fish a second time

Canadian fishermen get fed up with the Government avoiding any confrontation and torch a Chinese lobster pound whose sole purpose is to purchase and process out of season and undersize/illegal lobster.

Progressive allies get outraged, blame racism/colonialism (of course) and claim "it's only a few lobster" (it's not) and "they are entitled to special treatment and exemption from the DFO" (debatable and untrue)


Oh good, I was worried I would have to check out The Rebel for the official White Nationalist chud take on this. Saved me a browser scrub for racist assholes.
 
2020-10-17 11:02:11 AM  
13 votes:
This is a treaty dispute. Take them to court if you feel you have a grievance. Friggin assholes.

Or, turn your gaze to Clearwater. They're a real villian in this story.
 
2020-10-17 8:10:28 PM  
12 votes:
I'm First Nations.

We're getting told to not fight back. I'm from BC.

This summer, we were advised to not fish as stocks were low. We listened. We are told to not hunt moose. We listened. Take it easy on the deer. We listened.

How farking long do we have to just sit on our farking hands. We're not rich. We can fight back, but we're getting told not to. This year farking sucks and it's never going to end and now this. Sick and tired of just being farking mad all the time and it's growing, we're all farking mad. Come here to see some farking racists talking like they know what's going on. fark you.
 
2020-10-17 2:30:34 PM  
11 votes:
Yeah, all the bad shiat that black people get in the US? In Canada it gets directed to natives.

It's interesting that the RCMP doesn't seem to think race riots and looting involving hundreds of people is a matter of concern. I guess we know what their priorities are.
 
2020-10-17 5:53:55 PM  
9 votes:

Leper Canuck: <sigh>
First Nations tribe....
Get a settlement from the Government in the form of cash and free lobster licenses
Proceed to catch lobster out of season, including undersize and ones with eggs
Sell the catch to Chinese companies
Dispose of what they can't sell by dumping it in the forest to rot
Sell access to their boats to non-native people to fish out of season
When the regular season opens, use their legitimate licenses to fish a second time

Canadian fishermen get fed up with the Government avoiding any confrontation and torch a Chinese lobster pound whose sole purpose is to purchase and process out of season and undersize/illegal lobster.

Progressive allies get outraged, blame racism/colonialism (of course) and claim "it's only a few lobster" (it's not) and "they are entitled to special treatment and exemption from the DFO" (debatable and untrue)


Natives get like 1% of the lobster catch and 100% of the blame. And they aren't the ones out wrecking other people's  shiat.

So... you can blame them if you want, and I'm sure they're  not perfect people, but seriously, it's pretty clear who's causing the shiat here.
 
2020-10-17 6:12:12 PM  
8 votes:

halifaxdatageek: Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P


Ok. Ill solve it for you. Its simple. One.of them is wrong. Because saying something doesnt make it true.

The second a native person tries to do something that isn't staying in their reserve doing drugs and drinking there is.someone like you to come along and get passed off about it. They aren't the ones burning down other peoples property. So whatever they have done, its a pretty god dammed far cry from whats been done to them.

Face it, you're  a racist. I.am.also from nova scotia, and the level.of racism against native people is palatable.  And you are part of that problem.
 
2020-10-17 4:54:01 PM  
8 votes:
Bone Spurs and Harmony:
The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the natives have the right to fish, as they see fit, and subject only to conservation orders from the actual government. What they do with the fish is their business and not a bunch of scoff-law non-Natives. It's not that hard. So the guy is not right, nor is he alone in the fark yourself pound.

And the SCOC didn't rule that because of "PC crap" or whatever. It ruled that, based upon the treaties that the government of Canada entered into with native bands, they were authorized to do so. Just as SCOTUS ruled recently that tribal jurisdiction applies to a fairly large portion of Oklahoma.

If the government commits to an agreement to do something, they have to do the thing. If the government wants to cease doing the thing, they need to work with native groups to revise those treaties. They won't because, well, there might be a few concessions that various bands would be looking for.
 
2020-10-17 2:43:04 PM  
8 votes:
Pretty ashamed of the RCMP and the non-native fishermen.

The non-native fishermen barely catch any compared to the big industry types.

It's such a controlled market.  You can't even catch one for yourself (unlike out west in BC).

A real racket.
 
2020-10-18 2:09:35 AM  
7 votes:
This is farking disgusting.  I've been watching with horror since this shiat show started.  It's 250 traps (compared to over a million by white fishermen in season). University bio departments have weighed in and said the Mi'kmaq fishing does not threaten the commercial fishery or the lobster spawn.  This is nothing but blatant racism wrapped up in corporate interests.  Is it wrong that I'd love to see a vigilante protection mob of not arsehole NS gun owners to show up and protect the treaty rights of the Mi'kmaq since the damned cops won't?
 
2020-10-17 7:09:35 PM  
7 votes:

chawco: I won't argue with you, that native people self-perpetuate a lot of their own problems. This is true of virtually all oppressed and marginalized people. And even privaleged people. We are often at least in part the architects of our own misfortune.

But its not white guilt to say the natives in NS are treated like shiat. Because they are. And as much as they have a responsibility to own parts of their.own social problems, they are also born into reserves which are separated from the majority of the population, not provided decent access to school, and surrounded by a white.majority which looks down on them, blames all their own problems, and a lot if white peolples problems (see TFA). Maybe if their lives were anything approaching eqi to the majority of nova Scotians some of those mass social problems.s would be a bit more addressable.


I'm down the Valley, where one of the reserves opened a gas bar a couple years back. Because the opening of the gas bar (which has a Tim Horton's, of course) coincided roughly with the closure of the Tim Horton's in the nearby town, I've heard repeatedly that the band schemed to get the Timmy's closed. Not, y'know, that a location directly on a busy highway is better for a corporation that deals in volume than a side street in a dying town.

Somehow, both "lazy natives don't do anything to get out of poverty" and "damned natives are using their money to screw us out of cheap coffee" are true at the same time.

The above is arguably the most Canadian thing ever written, given that it comes in a thread about lobster fishing.
 
2020-10-17 6:19:26 PM  
7 votes:

trialpha: reveal101: For a frame of reference, I read the normal industry runs 360000+ traps in the regular season. The First Nations runs 150.

This is blatant, shameful racism that makes me embarrassed to be Canadian.

It's the off season that appears to be the point of contention here, where it's the First Nation's 150 versus the normal industry's 0.

How damaging are 150 traps during the off season?


The risk is that, if the natives go out during the regular season with everybody else, the white NS fishermen will steal and wreck their traps, steal their catches, or maybe even wreck their boats. NS fishermen are little better than the mafia. This is their turf and they won't share it with anybody.

https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/m​i​kmaq-fishers-won-at-the-supreme-court-​but-theyre-still-fighting-for-their-li​velihoods/
 
2020-10-17 2:17:09 PM  
7 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ayup


It's "ayuh," flatlandah.
 
2020-10-17 11:10:27 PM  
6 votes:

Wolf892: chawco: trialpha: The strange thing is people get upset whenever suggesting abolishing the reserve system. It's clearly a major part of the problem.

This i kinda agree with, but also, what does abolish it mean? Are the natives scattering to the 4 winds and being assimilated? And those incentives in place that keep the reserve system in place are a part of their lives are not so easy to give up.

I'm  not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying, its a complicated issue. Which is not an excuse to avoid doing with it.

Change is painful but necessary.

Get rid of the reserves. Assimilate into the rest of Canada.


The whole concept of First Nations "assimilating" into the "rest of Canada" is really disturbing. That's how we got the residential schools. Why should they be the ones to assimilate when it is the rest of Canada who is on their land? Taking away the reserves would be taking away the last shreds of any acknowledgment other than lip service that the land in Canada is actually theirs.
 
2020-10-17 5:50:31 PM  
6 votes:

adamatari: Yeah, all the bad shiat that black people get in the US? In Canada it gets directed to natives.

It's interesting that the RCMP doesn't seem to think race riots and looting involving hundreds of people is a matter of concern. I guess we know what their priorities are.


The RCMP have always been wildly anti-native. It's baked into their fundamental culture
 
2020-10-17 2:34:00 PM  
6 votes:
Oops. I didn't RTFA clearly. If I had I wouldn't have posted that trivial bullsh*t. My apologies.
 
2020-10-18 1:46:24 AM  
5 votes:
CrazyGerbilLady:

The whole concept of First Nations "assimilating" into the "rest of Canada" is really disturbing. That's how we got the residential schools. Why should they be the ones to assimilate when it is the rest of Canada who is on their land? Taking away the reserves would be taking away the last shreds of any acknowledgment other than lip service that the land in Canada is actually theirs.

"Just assimilate into Canada" is a call to cultural genocide, plain and simple. And that's not even just me saying it, either...here's the (at the time) Chief Justice of the Supreme Court:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/​n​ational/chief-justice-says-canada-atte​mpted-cultural-genocide-on-aboriginals​/article24688854/

The people who push assimilation do so because the continued existence of the native population is really inconvenient. It's a reminder of all the really awful things we did in order to come into possession of this country. And it'd just be a hell of a lot easier if none of the obligations the government signed existed further, and ultimately if native peoples weren't really a thing anymore, at least as coherent cultural groupings.
 
2020-10-17 9:10:52 PM  
5 votes:

Don't Lag Me Bro: WickerNipple: Just more Canadians treating First Nations folks like seals.

Sounds like a 'both sides' conflict. First Nations did have a right to catch lobster, but took it too far. Whomever is torching things, though, should be thrown in the slammer.
The Feds will just throw money at the issue.


If this article is the first and only information you've read on the issue, I can understand the "both sides" perspective. The article doesn't really touch on the terms of the 1752 treaty, the decisions of the 1999 ruling, or fully clarify the "moderate living" crux of the dispute. The article's wording could even be interpreted as suggesting the "commercial fishing season" applies to the Sipekne'katik, despite the 1999 ruling that it does not. There may be some fringe laypeople who say it does, in spite of the ruling, but that's like Meal Team 6 arguing about grazing rights in the US; their position is a philosophical objection unrelated to laws and legal rulings.

This article also leaves out almost all the recent crimes commercial lobster fisherpeople have engaged in, compared to the Sipekne'katik who simply caught lobsters. Even if you believe the amount of lobsters the Sipekne'katik caught exceeded the allowances of the 1999 ruling, which is a very unsettled question, that's a civil issue. It's a false equivalency to equate alleged overfishing with weeks of widespread vandalism, assaults, shootings, thefts, and now arson that burned a person.
 
2020-10-18 1:39:36 AM  
4 votes:
Yeah, this is more about racism than anything else.

This has been going on for days and the RCMP literally stood by as people attacked the first nation tribe.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2​0​20/10/14/mikmaq-chief-slams-nova-scoti​a-fishery-violence-they-are-getting-aw​ay-with-these-terrorist-hate-crime-act​s.html

Before the place burned down the filtration system was sabotaged, a van was torched.  At one point over 200 vehicles showed up and there was a standoff....  only because RCMP was there.  But when all those cars left, so did the RCMP and then it mysteriously went up in flames.

Also those other fisherman stole all the lobster from one of the hauls.

They didn't release them back into the wild...

So if it was REALLY about off-season fishing and depleting sticks you'd think they'd do that.

Also, if it was about that...  whats with all the racist insults?

This is purely racist shiatbags being racist shiatbags.

It hardens back to Jim crow era when white people would firebox black businesses with a similar argument of hurting their businesses.

It's pure bullshiat.  And as per usual the RCMP has kept up their amazing record of "defending" the indigenous population.
 
2020-10-17 11:21:08 PM  
4 votes:
Let's add up all the square footage of all the boat holds of the Canadian lobster boats and the square footage of all the First Nations' lobster boats and see who is really raping Mother Ocean. If there weren't 10,000+ traps during the one season, would 150 traps during the off season even be a concern?

Canada is afloat in propaganda that keeps circling the bowl. Canadians they insist everyone is treated equal when everyone knows the English-Canadians and French-Canadians are the most citizen plus of all citizens as they get their traditional laws applied to themselves. Third most protected culture? Hutterites and their communes. Canadian equality is a myth.

First Nation nations and cultures were born on these lands. We are comparable to the English in England, it Canadians that are comparable to the Polish in England, which is why their nation does not have Indigenous rights. Canadian should get upset with First Nations for how their government treats them. First Nations have nothing to do with that.

Most First Nations are governed by the Canadian law - the Indian Act. The governance system applied to First Nations is tri-level with democracy only going up to the "mayor" level. The top two level are held by Canadians who have no need to listen to the people they govern. This is why a Supreme Court decision can go 20 years without being negotiated. First Nations are governed by a Canadian-controlled system which looks after Canadian interests first.
 
2020-10-17 9:18:45 PM  
4 votes:

ficklefkrfark: chawco: halifaxdatageek: chawco: halifaxdatageek: Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P

Ok. Ill solve it for you. Its simple. One.of them is wrong. Because saying something doesnt make it true.

Alright, which one's wrong, then? Does lobster season not exist, or treaties?

The second a native person tries to do something that isn't staying in their reserve doing drugs and drinking there is.someone like you to come along and get passed off about it.

I'm not pissed off about them fishing lobster.

They aren't the ones burning down other peoples property. So whatever they have done, its a pretty god dammed far cry from whats been done to them.

I don't endorse arson.

Face it, you're  a racist. I.am.also from nova scotia, and the level.of racism against native people is palatable.  And you are part of that problem.

I disagree.

Well if the second us true, then the first must be false. All people do not have to abide by the seasonal rules. There are exceptions. I mean, for so.eone who claims to be a data geek I am a bit surprised this logic escapes you. In fact, I am not sure what poi t you could possible be trying to make except the things you claim to not be doing in your second post. The only reason I can think for your OP is to justify the actions of fishermen who are attacking the natives.

Am I mising.something?

The fishermen attacking the natives are pieces of shiat...but the ecosystem doesn't care about politics. Fishing out of season has a huge impact on the sustainability of the stock. The Canadian government could remedy this in so many other ways, such as native only fishing periods during open season, grants to purchase permits and better equipment for native fishermen, or guaranteed quota shares for the natives.
Chinese processors are taking advantage of the natives to utilize an old treaty to have them fish during the spawn, which threatens sustainability and depresses dock prices for all the working class fishermen, both native and white.


ok sure, fishnet out of season may have a higher impact but

1) attacking the natives over these points both illegal and basically about racism directed towards a.marginalized population that the police won't protect
2) the impact of the number of native lobster fiahers is 0.1% of any of the big commercial operations


This whe situation is racist as fark.
 
2020-10-17 9:14:13 PM  
4 votes:

trialpha: chawco: This i kinda agree with, but also, what does abolish it mean? Are the natives scattering to the 4 winds and being assimilated? And those incentives in place that keep the reserve system in place are a part of their lives are not so easy to give up.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying, its a complicated issue. Which is not an excuse to avoid doing with it.

I've heard one suggestion of just declaring the existing reserves as normal, regular towns, subject to the same rules and regulations as any other town. That would at least keep everyone together, while starting a path towards better interaction with the rest of society.


Ok, but that solution amount to "hey natives we're taking away the benefits of the reserves but otherwise just leaving you there "

Thats a pretty shiatty solution for them.
 
2020-10-17 8:36:16 PM  
4 votes:

halifaxdatageek: UndeadPoetsSociety: halifaxdatageek: Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P

Treaty law overrides local law. I'm not certain why this needs to be explained.

I really do wish it was that simple.


It's exactly that simple, you just don't like the fact that the Natives are exercising their treaty rights.
 
2020-10-17 7:58:33 PM  
4 votes:

halifaxdatageek: UndeadPoetsSociety: halifaxdatageek: Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P

Treaty law overrides local law. I'm not certain why this needs to be explained.

I really do wish it was that simple.


It kind of is. There are layers of laws, and local politicians aren't allowed to.ignor or supercede high level laws. The Supreme Court has agreed with this.
 
2020-10-17 7:02:18 PM  
4 votes:

halifaxdatageek: chawco: halifaxdatageek: Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P

Ok. Ill solve it for you. Its simple. One.of them is wrong. Because saying something doesnt make it true.

Alright, which one's wrong, then? Does lobster season not exist, or treaties?

The second a native person tries to do something that isn't staying in their reserve doing drugs and drinking there is.someone like you to come along and get passed off about it.

I'm not pissed off about them fishing lobster.

They aren't the ones burning down other peoples property. So whatever they have done, its a pretty god dammed far cry from whats been done to them.

I don't endorse arson.

Face it, you're  a racist. I.am.also from nova scotia, and the level.of racism against native people is palatable.  And you are part of that problem.

I disagree.


Well if the second us true, then the first must be false. All people do not have to abide by the seasonal rules. There are exceptions. I mean, for so.eone who claims to be a data geek I am a bit surprised this logic escapes you. In fact, I am not sure what poi t you could possible be trying to make except the things you claim to not be doing in your second post. The only reason I can think for your OP is to justify the actions of fishermen who are attacking the natives.

Am I mising.something?
 
2020-10-17 6:58:46 PM  
4 votes:
I won't argue with you, that native people self-perpetuate a lot of their own problems. This is true of virtually all oppressed and marginalized people. And even privaleged people. We are often at least in part the architects of our own misfortune.

But its not white guilt to say the natives in NS are treated like shiat. Because they are. And as much as they have a responsibility to own parts of their.own social problems, they are also born into reserves which are separated from the majority of the population, not provided decent access to school, and surrounded by a white.majority which looks down on them, blames all their own problems, and a lot if white peolples problems (see TFA). Maybe if their lives were anything approaching eqi to the majority of nova Scotians some of those mass social problems.s would be a bit more addressable.
 
2020-10-17 2:54:30 PM  
4 votes:

WickerNipple: Just more Canadians treating First Nations folks like seals.


Sounds like a 'both sides' conflict. First Nations did have a right to catch lobster, but took it too far. Whomever is torching things, though, should be thrown in the slammer.
The Feds will just throw money at the issue.
 
2020-10-17 9:49:02 PM  
3 votes:

trialpha: chawco: Ok, but that solution amount to "hey natives we're taking away the benefits of the reserves but otherwise just leaving you there "

Thats a pretty shiatty solution for them.

What benefits do reserves even have? They're effectively ghettos. It's hard to make things worse.

The other "solution" I've heard is to just hand each Native a bunch of cash - sufficient enough to start a life somewhere - and basically go "you're now a regular Canadian citizen with the same rights, privileges and responsibilities as everyone else. We're done here".

I imagine any actual solution would have to be a combination of things. Like making the reserves towns, offering subsidies for training, starting up businesses, etc.


My incomplete understanding is that natives on reserves get special status like tax exceptions. If they leave then they loose those rights. A proposal of take away those benefits and replace with nothing is a pretty weak proposal. They won't suddenly all.move to the city and get better jobs (which a lot of people don't want to give them anyways).

Complex problems don't have simple solutions.
 
2020-10-17 7:38:01 PM  
3 votes:

halifaxdatageek: Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P


Treaty law overrides local law. I'm not certain why this needs to be explained.
 
2020-10-17 7:17:43 PM  
3 votes:

trialpha: The strange thing is people get upset whenever suggesting abolishing the reserve system. It's clearly a major part of the problem.


This i kinda agree with, but also, what does abolish it mean? Are the natives scattering to the 4 winds and being assimilated? And those incentives in place that keep the reserve system in place are a part of their lives are not so easy to give up.

I'm  not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying, its a complicated issue. Which is not an excuse to avoid doing with it.
 
2020-10-17 6:39:59 PM  
3 votes:

chawco: halifaxdatageek: Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P

Ok. Ill solve it for you. Its simple. One.of them is wrong. Because saying something doesnt make it true.


Alright, which one's wrong, then? Does lobster season not exist, or treaties?

The second a native person tries to do something that isn't staying in their reserve doing drugs and drinking there is.someone like you to come along and get passed off about it.

I'm not pissed off about them fishing lobster.

They aren't the ones burning down other peoples property. So whatever they have done, its a pretty god dammed far cry from whats been done to them.

I don't endorse arson.

Face it, you're  a racist. I.am.also from nova scotia, and the level.of racism against native people is palatable.  And you are part of that problem.

I disagree.
 
2020-10-17 5:40:22 PM  
3 votes:
Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P
 
Juc [TotalFark]
2020-10-18 12:27:55 AM  
2 votes:

Leper Canuck: <sigh>
First Nations tribe....
Get a settlement from the Government in the form of cash and free lobster licenses
Proceed to catch lobster out of season, including undersize and ones with eggs
Sell the catch to Chinese companies
Dispose of what they can't sell by dumping it in the forest to rot
Sell access to their boats to non-native people to fish out of season
When the regular season opens, use their legitimate licenses to fish a second time

Canadian fishermen get fed up with the Government avoiding any confrontation and torch a Chinese lobster pound whose sole purpose is to purchase and process out of season and undersize/illegal lobster.

Progressive allies get outraged, blame racism/colonialism (of course) and claim "it's only a few lobster" (it's not) and "they are entitled to special treatment and exemption from the DFO" (debatable and untrue)


Treaties some times have inconvenient bits in them.
Sometimes one party has rights the other doesn't.
I see that sort of thing all the time out here, meti, cree, etc exercising their treaty rights. White folks get angry because they're not following the same set of rules.
The place to deal with that is at a negotiation table if it's really that bad (people are sorta being babies about it here at least but good swear killing a deer out of white person season was an afront to God)

We should abide by treaties that we've agreed to even if they suck. Pull out and renegotiate if we gotta, or what have you, but violence is dumb, and should be aimed at feckless politicians and not the first nations peeps anyway.

It is what it is, torching shiat doesn't really color the folks in a good light
 
2020-10-18 12:11:11 AM  
2 votes:

CrazyGerbilLady: Wolf892: chawco: trialpha: The strange thing is people get upset whenever suggesting abolishing the reserve system. It's clearly a major part of the problem.

This i kinda agree with, but also, what does abolish it mean? Are the natives scattering to the 4 winds and being assimilated? And those incentives in place that keep the reserve system in place are a part of their lives are not so easy to give up.

I'm  not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying, its a complicated issue. Which is not an excuse to avoid doing with it.

Change is painful but necessary.

Get rid of the reserves. Assimilate into the rest of Canada.

The whole concept of First Nations "assimilating" into the "rest of Canada" is really disturbing. That's how we got the residential schools. Why should they be the ones to assimilate when it is the rest of Canada who is on their land? Taking away the reserves would be taking away the last shreds of any acknowledgment other than lip service that the land in Canada is actually theirs.


Reserves are creations of Canada - they are creations of Canadian culture  - NOT FIRST NATIONS CULTURES. They are meant to assimilate us into Canadian culture. So you can imaging how effin' ironic I find it when a Canadian says, "Reserves don't work". They basically saying "Towns don't work".

It is the governance system of these towns that doesn't work...not the existence of the towns themselves. Fist Nations are mostly governed by the Indian Act - Canadian law.  The governance system applied to First Nations is tri-level with democracy only going up to the "mayor" level. The top two level are held by Canadians who have no need to listen to the people they govern. This is why a Supreme Court decision can go 20 years without being negotiated. First Nations are governed by a Canadian-controlled system which looks after Canadian interests first.

Indigenous rights were not forced on Canada by First Nations. They are how the English argues it has rights to England (See William the Conqueror and 'The Law of the Land' for details). When that legal system moves to new lands, it is not "racist" to recognize the Indigenous rights of the new "hosts"...it is a cultural and legal imperative. Indigenous rights have nothing to do with race, the Cree would still have them if were genetically "white", they are a matter of history and the relationship of our cultures with these lands.
 
2020-10-17 9:40:38 PM  
2 votes:

Albino Squid: Supreme


That's not correct. Details matter. The Supreme Court ruled natives could make a "moderate livelihood" not  do as they see fit, as you claim. And that is the problem. "Moderate livelihood" has never been defined. For years people have sought clarity. The government has failed to ensure it was given.

Example below:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/hu​b​ert-francis-mi-kmaq-fishing-treaty-rig​hts-lawsuit-1.4406156

R. v. Marshall also upheld 240-some odd year old treaty rights that may not necessarily reflect the reality of today, i.e. lobster (and other) stocks in the area.

Frankly, there is a simple answer here, from an environmental standpoint: have marine biologists and conservationists survey the region and monitor population levels. If they green-light off-season fishing, fine. If the population cannot withstand it, it should remain off-limits.
 
2020-10-17 8:47:55 PM  
2 votes:
Since a lot of people seem to be raising the "conservation" flag, I'd like to point out that research into current fishing tech (drop a trap then go back and see what's in it) has shown that the main effect traps have is feeding lobsters, not catching lobsters.

The fishery is not putting pressure on stocks.
 
2020-10-17 7:53:27 PM  
2 votes:

UndeadPoetsSociety: halifaxdatageek: Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P

Treaty law overrides local law. I'm not certain why this needs to be explained.


I really do wish it was that simple.
 
2020-10-17 7:08:49 PM  
2 votes:

GoodHomer: The risk is that, if the natives go out during the regular season with everybody else, the white NS fishermen will steal and wreck their traps, steal their catches, or maybe even wreck their boats. NS fishermen are little better than the mafia. This is their turf and they won't share it with anybody.


Couldn't they do that in the off season as well? Hell, they would have more time.

I am honestly curious as to how much more damage a trap does to the ecosystem in the off season versus on season.

chawco: But its not white guilt to say the natives in NS are treated like shiat. Because they are. And as much as they have a responsibility to own parts of their.own social problems, they are also born into reserves which are separated from the majority of the population, not provided decent access to school, and surrounded by a white.majority which looks down on them, blames all their own problems, and a lot if white peolples problems (see TFA). Maybe if their lives were anything approaching eqi to the majority of nova Scotians some of those mass social problems.s would be a bit more addressable.


The strange thing is people get upset whenever suggesting abolishing the reserve system. It's clearly a major part of the problem.
 
2020-10-18 12:27:29 PM  
1 vote:

Juc: It is what it is, torching shiat doesn't really color the folks in a good light


More of a charcoal grey color, in the case of the one suspect :)
 
2020-10-18 10:21:01 AM  
1 vote:

CrazyGerbilLady: Taking away the reserves would be taking away the last shreds of any acknowledgment other than lip service that the land in Canada is actually theirs.


The statement of "land actually belonging to the indigenous peoples" is pure lip service, in any country. The native peoples don't control it, earn income off of it, or anything else typically associated with actually owning land. The best they get is a little placard of "we acknowledge this land actually belongs to <native peoples>" somewhere.

Indigenous people had their land taken from them, by force or deceit, and they're not getting it back.
 
2020-10-18 9:02:34 AM  
1 vote:

foxy_canuck: This is farking disgusting.  I've been watching with horror since this shiat show started.  It's 250 traps (compared to over a million by white fishermen in season). University bio departments have weighed in and said the Mi'kmaq fishing does not threaten the commercial fishery or the lobster spawn.  This is nothing but blatant racism wrapped up in corporate interests.  Is it wrong that I'd love to see a vigilante protection mob of not arsehole NS gun owners to show up and protect the treaty rights of the Mi'kmaq since the damned cops won't?


Unfortunately we're so outnumbered by the idiots so we have to go the pen is mightier than the sword route.

Remember Charlemagne, Let my armies be the rocks and the trees and the birds in the sky.
 
2020-10-17 10:23:46 PM  
1 vote:

Wolf892: trialpha: chawco: Ok, but that solution amount to "hey natives we're taking away the benefits of the reserves but otherwise just leaving you there "

Thats a pretty shiatty solution for them.

What benefits do reserves even have? They're effectively ghettos. It's hard to make things worse.

The other "solution" I've heard is to just hand each Native a bunch of cash - sufficient enough to start a life somewhere - and basically go "you're now a regular Canadian citizen with the same rights, privileges and responsibilities as everyone else. We're done here".

I imagine any actual solution would have to be a combination of things. Like making the reserves towns, offering subsidies for training, starting up businesses, etc.

They do that already...it doesn't help


Actually it may have helped quite a bit. There is, I think, some evidence that the extreme poverty on some reserves has been reducing over the years.

But I kind of suspect you don't care, unless I'm mistaking you for.other poster your attitude very much seems to be "fark the natives". So, well, maybe your opinions on this can be taken with a grain of salt.
 
2020-10-17 10:10:53 PM  
1 vote:

chawco: ficklefkrfark: chawco: halifaxdatageek: chawco: halifaxdatageek: Lobster season exists for a reason, and everyone has to abide by it.

At the same time, some folks have the right to fish whenever and wherever they want.

You solve the conflict of those two true statements, I ain't going to touch it :P

Ok. Ill solve it for you. Its simple. One.of them is wrong. Because saying something doesnt make it true.

Alright, which one's wrong, then? Does lobster season not exist, or treaties?

The second a native person tries to do something that isn't staying in their reserve doing drugs and drinking there is.someone like you to come along and get passed off about it.

I'm not pissed off about them fishing lobster.

They aren't the ones burning down other peoples property. So whatever they have done, its a pretty god dammed far cry from whats been done to them.

I don't endorse arson.

Face it, you're  a racist. I.am.also from nova scotia, and the level.of racism against native people is palatable.  And you are part of that problem.

I disagree.

Well if the second us true, then the first must be false. All people do not have to abide by the seasonal rules. There are exceptions. I mean, for so.eone who claims to be a data geek I am a bit surprised this logic escapes you. In fact, I am not sure what poi t you could possible be trying to make except the things you claim to not be doing in your second post. The only reason I can think for your OP is to justify the actions of fishermen who are attacking the natives.

Am I mising.something?

The fishermen attacking the natives are pieces of shiat...but the ecosystem doesn't care about politics. Fishing out of season has a huge impact on the sustainability of the stock. The Canadian government could remedy this in so many other ways, such as native only fishing periods during open season, grants to purchase permits and better equipment for native fishermen, or guaranteed quota shares for the natives.
Chinese processors are taking advantage of the natives to utilize an old treaty to have them fish during the spawn, which threatens sustainability and depresses dock prices for all the working class fishermen, both native and white.

ok sure, fishnet out of season may have a higher impact but

1) attacking the natives over these points both illegal and basically about racism directed towards a.marginalized population that the police won't protect
2) the impact of the number of native lobster fiahers is 0.1% of any of the big commercial operations


This whe situation is racist as fark.


I agree that the violence against the native fishermen is vile and abhorrent...there is no excuse, and the white fishermen that are doing it are directing their anger at another marginalized group who are also trying to make a living, so it goes as a sage once wrote. It appears that the real moneyed interests in the seafood industry (the processors and buyers) are taking full advantage, and the government isnt stepping in to find a solution that both parties can live with. Instead their police are standing back and letting the madness ensue, while the national leadership condemns the violence, and showers empty platitudes towards the natives. The progressive parties are guilty of this the world over...spineless against the moneyed interests, but voice hollow concern towards the disenfranchised (while conservatives are happy to allow and enable the pillage, while denigrating the pillaged)
As far as the catch statistics go, I'd assume these are stats from the normal in season fishery...where the native fleet in the past has had low effort/participation. I'd assume this new fishery has a greater fleet presence, as the processors wouldn't even bother to spend the capital for a low amount of catch in the traditional off season. It's likely that a much larger fleet is exploiting this off season opportunity to make large hauls...less fleet equals exponentially better catch. The article claims that non native boats are participating, you can do this by having a native permit holder on board.
The natives deserve a piece of the pie, but going about it in this way just damages the fishery as whole and brings bad blood between their fellow working class peers...and non native,outside influences are using this to exploit the resource for a lower price, endangering and devaluing the fishery for all risking the waves to live.
 
2020-10-17 8:37:51 PM  
1 vote:

Leper Canuck: <sigh>
First Nations tribe....
Get a settlement from the Government in the form of cash and free lobster licenses
Proceed to catch lobster out of season, including undersize and ones with eggs
Sell the catch to Chinese companies
Dispose of what they can't sell by dumping it in the forest to rot
Sell access to their boats to non-native people to fish out of season
When the regular season opens, use their legitimate licenses to fish a second time

Canadian fishermen get fed up with the Government avoiding any confrontation and torch a Chinese lobster pound whose sole purpose is to purchase and process out of season and undersize/illegal lobster.

Progressive allies get outraged, blame racism/colonialism (of course) and claim "it's only a few lobster" (it's not) and "they are entitled to special treatment and exemption from the DFO" (debatable and untrue)


My buddy fishes lobster in NS...talking to him this summer, he agrees with most of you points...but did say that some of the more ignorant fishermen are taking out their racist rage on the natives, instead of directing it to Ottawa, who haven't weighed in on the murky gray area of "moderate living" part of the treaty. Fishing out of season, and taking egg bearing females will eventually crash the bio mass...leaving all the working class (white and native) without a means to survive. The processors will profit either way.
 
2020-10-17 7:47:17 PM  
1 vote:
"a lobster pound"?

Is that like a dog pound for lobsters?

Are there cute little lobsters that make you just want to give them a good home when you go there?

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2020-10-17 7:30:24 PM  
1 vote:

chawco: trialpha: The strange thing is people get upset whenever suggesting abolishing the reserve system. It's clearly a major part of the problem.

This i kinda agree with, but also, what does abolish it mean? Are the natives scattering to the 4 winds and being assimilated? And those incentives in place that keep the reserve system in place are a part of their lives are not so easy to give up.

I'm  not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying, its a complicated issue. Which is not an excuse to avoid doing with it.


Change is painful but necessary.

Get rid of the reserves. Assimilate into the rest of Canada.
 
2020-10-17 6:24:14 PM  
1 vote:

Leper Canuck: <sigh>
First Nations tribe....
Get a settlement from the Government in the form of cash and free lobster licenses
Proceed to catch lobster out of season, including undersize and ones with eggs
Sell the catch to Chinese companies
Dispose of what they can't sell by dumping it in the forest to rot
Sell access to their boats to non-native people to fish out of season
When the regular season opens, use their legitimate licenses to fish a second time

Canadian fishermen get fed up with the Government avoiding any confrontation and torch a Chinese lobster pound whose sole purpose is to purchase and process out of season and undersize/illegal lobster.

Progressive allies get outraged, blame racism/colonialism (of course) and claim "it's only a few lobster" (it's not) and "they are entitled to special treatment and exemption from the DFO" (debatable and untrue)


You are the problem with Canada. Repent or be crushed under the wheel of societal progress.
 
2020-10-17 6:09:45 PM  
1 vote:

Dybbuk Schmybbuk: I just hope Jayne Mansfield still gets the gentle care she so richly deserves.
/obscure?


The 5.6.7.8 s - I Walk Like Jayne Mansfield
Youtube luV9HOmOAGc
 
2020-10-17 6:04:42 PM  
1 vote:

reveal101: For a frame of reference, I read the normal industry runs 360000+ traps in the regular season. The First Nations runs 150.

This is blatant, shameful racism that makes me embarrassed to be Canadian.


It's the off season that appears to be the point of contention here, where it's the First Nation's 150 versus the normal industry's 0.

How damaging are 150 traps during the off season?
 
2020-10-17 4:37:22 PM  
1 vote:

gunther_bumpass: reveal101: For a frame of reference, I read the normal industry runs 360000+ traps in the regular season. The First Nations runs 150.

This is blatant, shameful racism that makes me embarrassed to be Canadian.

This is what made you embarrassed to be Canadian? And not Barenaked Ladies? Or Cory Doctorow?


Gavin McInnes didn't help any either.
 
2020-10-17 3:39:07 PM  
1 vote:
Lobster Sticks to Magnet!
Youtube fjtVsYqAR3s
 
2020-10-17 2:41:55 PM  
1 vote:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: hoodiowithtudio: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Ayup

It's "ayuh," flatlandah.

Sorry

/I'm from California


Ehhh, I'm from Cleveland, it's ok. Trust me, I lived there for 18 years and I was constantly reminded I was from away.
 
2020-10-17 2:31:38 PM  
1 vote:
Business Mantis shrimp is serious

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