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(Popular Mechanics)   You unsank my battleship   (popularmechanics.com) divider line
    More: Scary  
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2398 clicks; posted to STEM » on 17 Oct 2020 at 11:18 AM (3 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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3 days ago  
Healthcare pls
 
3 days ago  

Bowen: Healthcare pls


Sorry. The need to be able to kill brown people 1000 miles away supersedes your need to live.
 
3 days ago  
Wait. So the giant gun reaches like 1100 miles. But we need to design a whole new platform to use it. Meanwhile, tomahawk missiles have like a 1,500 mile reach and already available in varios submarines and ships. So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?
 
3 days ago  

kbronsito: So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?


If what I've heard is correct, the "giant gun" would be able to deliver a much larger payload. The theory being that the cruise missile is mostly missile (engine and propellant) while the giant gun shell would be pretty much nothing but explosive material.

A big badaboom, as it were.

media1.giphy.comView Full Size
 
3 days ago  
1000 mile range, and TFA is worried about the fact that it might need to stick to roads?

"Damnit Sarge, the enemy base is 1000 miles and 300 yards away, and we don't have a road that goes that way!"
 
3 days ago  
Yay! Better ways of killing people!
 
3 days ago  
Kind of depends on how much a shell costs and how often it can fire and how many times before the barrel is shot.
 
3 days ago  

KarmicDisaster: Kind of depends on how much a shell costs and how often it can fire and how many times before the barrel is shot.


The Zumwalt gun had a max range of under 83 nm and cost $800k+ per round. Once you're over that cost, you might as well make a bunch of missiles.

I bet in the next large war, we will see barges loaded with VLS cells and radios, towed by smaller surface action groups. Ripple off all the missiles when you find the opposing force and then cut the tow and go mop up. Gonna be some Macross shiat.
 
3 days ago  
I think I saw the documentary in 1940 already.

Die dicke Berta - Der große Diktator
Youtube ZzQqsYh1TBU
 
3 days ago  
bigger guns doesn't change the fact these ships would still be sitting ducks with out air cover.
 
3 days ago  

Tr0mBoNe: I bet in the next large war, we will see barges loaded with VLS cells and radios, towed by smaller surface action groups. Ripple off all the missiles when you find the opposing force and then cut the tow and go mop up. Gonna be some Macross shiat.


You may enjoy reading the 'Honor Harrington' series of sci-fi books by David Webber.

The technologically advanced but small star system of Manticore kerb stomps several naval engagements with just this tactic; ship launched missiles, gravity towed missile pods, deployed missile arrays stealthed around critical points in a system... all coupled with better fire control tactics, jammers, decoys and overall discipline.

Early battles are very one sided and crushing defeats for their enemies. The problem is every other potential enemy cottons on pretty quick & the inevitable arms race gets scary.

\Hornblower.. in space!
 
3 days ago  

Aardvark Inc.: You may enjoy reading the 'Honor Harrington' series of sci-fi books by David Webber.


Just skip the part where the treecats learn sign language.

/ I wish someone had warned me ahead of time
 
3 days ago  
Ok lets go over some history here before we really begin to laugh at the idiots who believe this is actually possible

First, the leaked images show something that is SMALLER than the rail cannons germany used in WW2. Those were 31 inch rounds. This looks to be your standard 20 inch shell. So already we are going to be looking at obvious payload issues because there is only so much you can fit in a shell.

The Schwerer Gustav was able to go between 39 and 48km in range. Because of how long it took to load, aim and fire, you got 14 rounds a day. It wore out its barrel after firing 300 rounds. As basic physics tells us, the only way to make a gun shoot faster is a bigger charge (which damages things faster), a longer barrel (which would literally droop under its own weight like a limp noodle), or both

The fun kicker to this is that the nazis had a gun battery that was rated at 190km. It  was going to use 20 inch shells that were around 700kg in weight. To do that required them to build the battery underground, because that was literally the only possible way to support the 43 meter barrels. And in order to have that 190km range, they had 4 or 5 extra charges along the barrel, so as the shell went down the gas behind it would ignite the extra charges to give it the speed it needed while not blowing up the gun itself


So how the flying fark are we supposed to believe that a small gun like that magically solved every single problem in the world, flies in the face of basic physics and can deliver a higher charge than a tomahawk missile?
 
3 days ago  

kbronsito: Wait. So the giant gun reaches like 1100 miles. But we need to design a whole new platform to use it. Meanwhile, tomahawk missiles have like a 1,500 mile reach and already available in varios submarines and ships. So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?


In theory, it would be cheaper and you'd be able to carry more shots with it than missiles. Might also be less susceptible to interception.
 
3 days ago  

Bowen: Healthcare pls


It's $305m and comes at the expense of other things in the Army budget so you have to look elsewhere for the ~$2.4T for healthcare

/healthcare I agree with, by the way
 
3 days ago  

grimlock1972: bigger guns doesn't change the fact these ships would still be sitting ducks with out air cover.


Actually it might change that a lot.
They've been doing tests to use artillery for intercepting cruise missiles. In theory that can apply to any howitzer or railgun. That would be bad news for aircraft as well. A longer range guided shell means there's another lawyer of anti-everything weapon between the fighter and the target.
The anti-air/space standard missiles already aren't going anywhere. The question is if turrets are coming back.

Fark user imageView Full Size


/personally I'm a fan of the vault like construction of battleships.
/which can prove useful when putting men in harms way of things like fast boats.
/but it's not really useful for a "war" so fuel economy and speed take precedent.
 
3 days ago  
Didn't the navy have a new supergun on their littoral combat ships. But forgot to source a supply of shells. So the guns ended up being useless/ too costly to use.
 
3 days ago  

olorin604: Didn't the navy have a new supergun on their littoral combat ships. But forgot to source a supply of shells. So the guns ended up being useless/ too costly to use.


I think that was Zumwalt not LCS, but yeah technology didn't proceed far enough to make the rounds economically
 
2 days ago  

kbronsito: Wait. So the giant gun reaches like 1100 miles. But we need to design a whole new platform to use it. Meanwhile, tomahawk missiles have like a 1,500 mile reach and already available in varios submarines and ships. So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?


You're not thinking like a military contractor.  Doesn't matter what it should do, can do or will do, you get overpaid up front.
 
2 days ago  

johnny_vegas: you have to look elsewhere for the ~$2.4T for healthcare


Maybe I should stop drinking so many avocado lattes.
 
2 days ago  

Bowen: johnny_vegas: you have to look elsewhere for the ~$2.4T for healthcare

Maybe I should stop drinking so many avocado lattes.


Well probably closer to $1.3T, because I would assume the current spending for Medicare and Medicaid would be rolled up into single payer universal healthcare
 
2 days ago  

lifeslammer: So how the flying fark are we supposed to believe that a small gun like that magically solved every single problem in the world, flies in the face of basic physics and can deliver a higher charge than a tomahawk missile?


Rocket-assisted artillery is already a thing; this is just an extreme version of it.  You need enough of a bang to get it reasonably airborne, and then the rocket kicks in.  Don't know about the larger payload, though.

I suspect the thinking is along the lines of a very fast, terminal-guidance round (to improve accuracy over such long distances) that is relatively immune to current methods of interception that could take down Tomahawks and other low-velocity rounds.

WWIII is going to be a cyber war that targets civilians, so pretty pointless in my mind.
 
2 days ago  
1000 mile cannon?

Fired at the same speed as a WW2 Mark 7, you're looking at a shell flight time of 32 minutes and some change.

Not sure what the point would be.
 
2 days ago  

MrBallou: Bowen: Healthcare pls

Sorry. The need to be able to kill brown people 1000 miles away supersedes your need to live.


And dont forget those military industrial complex stock owners.

They have lifestyles to live.
 
2 days ago  

Bondith: kbronsito: Wait. So the giant gun reaches like 1100 miles. But we need to design a whole new platform to use it. Meanwhile, tomahawk missiles have like a 1,500 mile reach and already available in varios submarines and ships. So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?

You're not thinking like a military contractor.  Doesn't matter what it should do, can do or will do, you get overpaid up front.


Courtesy of the tax paying socialist public.

Thread over
 
2 days ago  

olorin604: Didn't the navy have a new supergun on their littoral combat ships. But forgot to source a supply of shells. So the guns ended up being useless/ too costly to use.


That was for the Zumwalt's gun.  It wasn't that they forgot anything but that the number of ships in the class was scaled back drastically.  That massively reduced the demand for shells so what would have been a fairly standardized round became more of a niche product that had a much higher price per round.
 
2 days ago  

OrionXVI: 1000 mile cannon?

Fired at the same speed as a WW2 Mark 7, you're looking at a shell flight time of 32 minutes and some change.

Not sure what the point would be.


The point would be to make a hole in something I imagine
 
2 days ago  
Yamato Launch 2010
Youtube TrCBX4ifDVY
 
2 days ago  

kbronsito: Wait. So the giant gun reaches like 1100 miles. But we need to design a whole new platform to use it. Meanwhile, tomahawk missiles have like a 1,500 mile reach and already available in varios submarines and ships. So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?


First my disclaimer, I doubt the supergun project has advanced very far in the last 30 years. Yeah this article is a standard pop sci puff piece.

Now if such a critter was possible then the advantages is that you could put rounds on target and not worry about any pesky interecept systems. Due to the fact that you would be launching something the equivalent mass of a VW bug, or greater, and it is really hard to knock a VW bug off target, those things are unkillable. Whereas a missile or small mortar round can be intercepted.

Of course Rods from God seems to be the next logical step, not inventing another super gun that floats on an easy to kill water target.

/ Or more importantly raising the standard of living world wide.
// Coke and Mc Donalds (and their like ilk) did more to establish a US supremacy than any super weapon ever has.
/// Sadly the makers of super weapons get really depressed if you tell them that.
 
2 days ago  

Linux_Yes: Bondith: kbronsito: Wait. So the giant gun reaches like 1100 miles. But we need to design a whole new platform to use it. Meanwhile, tomahawk missiles have like a 1,500 mile reach and already available in varios submarines and ships. So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?

You're not thinking like a military contractor.  Doesn't matter what it should do, can do or will do, you get overpaid up front.

Courtesy of the tax paying socialist public.

Thread over


lh3.googleusercontent.comView Full Size
 
2 days ago  

Tr0mBoNe: KarmicDisaster: Kind of depends on how much a shell costs and how often it can fire and how many times before the barrel is shot.

The Zumwalt gun had a max range of under 83 nm and cost $800k+ per round. Once you're over that cost, you might as well make a bunch of missiles.

I bet in the next large war, we will see barges loaded with VLS cells and radios, towed by smaller surface action groups. Ripple off all the missiles when you find the opposing force and then cut the tow and go mop up. Gonna be some Macross shiat.


We already have tons of missiles.  They're really quite boring.  We'd like some new toys, please.
 
2 days ago  

kbronsito: Wait. So the giant gun reaches like 1100 miles. But we need to design a whole new platform to use it. Meanwhile, tomahawk missiles have like a 1,500 mile reach and already available in varios submarines and ships. So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?


A Tomahawk has an estimated cost of $1.4 million each, is subsonic, and can be shot down by modern air defences.

A shell from a gun will most likely be a lot cheaper with less moving parts that can fail, will be supersonic, and much harder to engage with SAMs.

In short, for a saturation attack, cheap munitions and an expensive launcher makes more sense than the other way around.
 
2 days ago  

johnny_vegas: Linux_Yes: Bondith: kbronsito: Wait. So the giant gun reaches like 1100 miles. But we need to design a whole new platform to use it. Meanwhile, tomahawk missiles have like a 1,500 mile reach and already available in varios submarines and ships. So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?

You're not thinking like a military contractor.  Doesn't matter what it should do, can do or will do, you get overpaid up front.

Courtesy of the tax paying socialist public.

Thread over

[lh3.googleusercontent.com image 300x236] [View Full Size image _x_]



Wow, no secret as to why she has a kid.
 
2 days ago  
FTFA: "Big guns made battleships obsolete decades ago."

LOL WUT? No, air power made battleships obsolete.

General Billy Mitchell would like a word.
 
2 days ago  

kbronsito: Wait. So the giant gun reaches like 1100 miles. But we need to design a whole new platform to use it. Meanwhile, tomahawk missiles have like a 1,500 mile reach and already available in varios submarines and ships. So what does this cannon do that we can't do better with missiles to be worth all the effort to design a sea based platform for it?


It generates profits for the MIC and moar jobs for retired military officers.
 
2 days ago  

SuperSeriousMan: Aardvark Inc.: You may enjoy reading the 'Honor Harrington' series of sci-fi books by David Webber.

Just skip the part where the treecats learn sign language.

/ I wish someone had warned me ahead of time


Honestly, that was more interesting to me than reading the transcript for "Attrition Math: The Video Game."
 
2 days ago  

Tr0mBoNe: KarmicDisaster: Kind of depends on how much a shell costs and how often it can fire and how many times before the barrel is shot.

The Zumwalt gun had a max range of under 83 nm and cost $800k+ per round. Once you're over that cost, you might as well make a bunch of missiles.

I bet in the next large war, we will see barges loaded with VLS cells and radios, towed by smaller surface action groups. Ripple off all the missiles when you find the opposing force and then cut the tow and go mop up. Gonna be some Macross shiat.


The victor of the next war will be decided by drones.

$200 each (and fully loaded with miniature munitions) X 400,000 drones = $80,000,000.

That is the cost of ONE F-35A jet (not counting payload ordnance).

You can shoot down one F-35A. How do you shoot down 400,000 aircraft the size of shoe boxes (or smaller)?

Visual:

Here is 10,000: Multiply by 40.
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2 days ago  

grimlock1972: bigger guns doesn't change the fact these ships would still be sitting ducks with out air cover.


Air cover won't stop them from being sitting ducks to submarines.  Or possibly mass drone attacks similar to General Riper's strategy (no, not the fictional one from "Dr. Strangelove", the real guy who had a "beat the US with Iraq" wargaming strategy who lost "because reasons").

This is only useful in typical US aggression against weak nations (and that bar get really low when Russia mass produces drone weapons).  But would each round (let alone the cost of the ship needed) being any less than a semi-smart missile delivered by drone?  They'd each have similar range.  Or you could build smaller artillery that could be towed by humvee.  A lot cheaper, although returning artillery fire might be an issue.

But yes, this certainly  makes a lot of sense for the military defence complex.  Keep writing those checks.

/and yes, I certainly want those checks written
//my paycheck depends on it
///but hopefully my stuff isn't quite as stupid
 
2 days ago  

johnny_vegas: Bowen: johnny_vegas: you have to look elsewhere for the ~$2.4T for healthcare

Maybe I should stop drinking so many avocado lattes.

Well probably closer to $1.3T, because I would assume the current spending for Medicare and Medicaid would be rolled up into single payer universal healthcare


Just turn in my iPhone for a Nokia 3310?
 
2 days ago  

Bowen: johnny_vegas: Bowen: johnny_vegas: you have to look elsewhere for the ~$2.4T for healthcare

Maybe I should stop drinking so many avocado lattes.

Well probably closer to $1.3T, because I would assume the current spending for Medicare and Medicaid would be rolled up into single payer universal healthcare

Just turn in my iPhone for a Nokia 3310?


If that helps you, absolutely.  Certainly get one that has google.
 
2 days ago  
My wild guess is that this is just a missile that gets an initial boost from being shot out of a gun. So you need a lot less fuel in the missile and get a bigger payload. The gunpowder replaces some of the missile.
 
2 days ago  
Sounds like a railgun or a coilgun of some sort.
 
2 days ago  

Bowen: Healthcare pls


Sorry, a very large portion of military spending is just a giant jobs program for people in the US.  In the 30's and 40's we had the CCC employing citizens to do manual labor, which doesn't help out the college-STEM-educated class so much.  Today, we use defense spending to keep all of those STEM engineers employed....with the side effect of a lot of machinists and manufacturers getting work as well.
 
2 days ago  

Explodo: Bowen: Healthcare pls

Sorry, a very large portion of military spending is just a giant jobs program for people in the US.  In the 30's and 40's we had the CCC employing citizens to do manual labor, which doesn't help out the college-STEM-educated class so much.  Today, we use defense spending to keep all of those STEM engineers employed....with the side effect of a lot of machinists and manufacturers getting work as well.


Why_not_both.jpg
 
2 days ago  

Harlee: Tr0mBoNe: KarmicDisaster: Kind of depends on how much a shell costs and how often it can fire and how many times before the barrel is shot.

The Zumwalt gun had a max range of under 83 nm and cost $800k+ per round. Once you're over that cost, you might as well make a bunch of missiles.

I bet in the next large war, we will see barges loaded with VLS cells and radios, towed by smaller surface action groups. Ripple off all the missiles when you find the opposing force and then cut the tow and go mop up. Gonna be some Macross shiat.

The victor of the next war will be decided by drones.

$200 each (and fully loaded with miniature munitions) X 400,000 drones = $80,000,000.

That is the cost of ONE F-35A jet (not counting payload ordnance).

You can shoot down one F-35A. How do you shoot down 400,000 aircraft the size of shoe boxes (or smaller)?

Visual:

Here is 10,000: Multiply by 40.
......................................​......................................​......................................​......................................​..........................
......................................​......................................​......................................​......................................​.......................... ......................................​......................................​......................................​......................................​.......................... ......................................​......................................​......................................​......................................​.......................... ......................................​......................................​......................................​......................................​.......................... ......................................​......................................​......................................​......................................​.......................... ....... ...


If they're extremely susceptible to jamming and small weapons fire then it's not that hard. Lasers and shotguns can deal with anything not disoriented by electronic attacks.
If it comes to it tho, drone technology works both ways. You can mass deploy drones to attack the enemy's drones.
The US has already experimented with its own swarm deployment system, so I see this as a technology with no real benefit to a modern army.

It's just going to take them down a path where the country with the most money can remote deploy massive swarms via B-52.  You'd be better off not playing that game if you don't have the production capacity.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2 days ago  

Bowen: Healthcare pls


The states can reform their healthcare systems any time they damn well please. If the idea works then any state could have made it work and all states would have followed.
They won't because they want the fed to pay for it. This leaves each state competing over getting the largest share of the pie, a battle which will never end.
 
2 days ago  

Explodo: Bowen: Healthcare pls

Sorry, a very large portion of military spending is just a giant jobs program for people in the US.  In the 30's and 40's we had the CCC employing citizens to do manual labor, which doesn't help out the college-STEM-educated class so much.  Today, we use defense spending to keep all of those STEM engineers employed....with the side effect of a lot of machinists and manufacturers getting work as well.


Maybe the government could pay people to develop better and cheaper MRI machines and bandaids and stuff instead of guns that will never actually be used.
 
2 days ago  

lifeslammer: OrionXVI: 1000 mile cannon?

Fired at the same speed as a WW2 Mark 7, you're looking at a shell flight time of 32 minutes and some change.

Not sure what the point would be.

The point would be to make a hole in something I imagine


Few issues.

Even a rail gun will have a long time of flight. If it's unguided, it will take an ungodly number of shells (there will be multiple weather events to factor in), which is a non starter because you wear out the barrel in a real hurry. Otherwise, it's going to require a high speed guidance system That will be as expensive as a missile that can survive being the force of being fired at supersonic or hypersonic speeds.  At that point, you might as well fire a missile since the propellant isn't the expensive part.
 
2 days ago  

OrionXVI: lifeslammer: OrionXVI: 1000 mile cannon?

Fired at the same speed as a WW2 Mark 7, you're looking at a shell flight time of 32 minutes and some change.

Not sure what the point would be.

The point would be to make a hole in something I imagine

Few issues.

Even a rail gun will have a long time of flight. If it's unguided, it will take an ungodly number of shells (there will be multiple weather events to factor in), which is a non starter because you wear out the barrel in a real hurry. Otherwise, it's going to require a high speed guidance system That will be as expensive as a missile that can survive being the force of being fired at supersonic or hypersonic speeds.  At that point, you might as well fire a missile since the propellant isn't the expensive part.


Well yeah. We know that. But we dont rely on convincing idiots in congress to waste money to keep our jobs
 
2 days ago  

way south: Bowen: Healthcare pls

The states can reform their healthcare systems any time they damn well please. If the idea works then any state could have made it work and all states would have followed.
They won't because they want the fed to pay for it. This leaves each state competing over getting the largest share of the pie, a battle which will never end.


Healthcare is a country wide need. It should not be up to the states. This is a federal level need. At least one state does have a single payer system. It can work. That does not help the rest of the country. Country wide healthcare will help the USA compete against the rest of the world. the economy will benefit.
Fark your libertarian garbage.
 
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