Skip to content
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(NPR)   Even people from Spanish-speaking countries don't know what "Latinx" means, or if it's actually racist   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Stupid, Hispanic and Latino Americans, young people, Spanish language, Mara R. Scharrn-del Ro, original language of colonization, Mark Hugo Lopez, Daniela Muoz, policing of Spanish  
•       •       •

3051 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 01 Oct 2020 at 10:06 AM (7 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



324 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2020-10-01 3:18:06 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Corn_Fed: deadsanta: There's a "Latinx" host on NPR who just drives me nuts every afternoon the way she virtue-signals her race and cultural sensitivity every minute. Can't recall her name, but she has a classic "news accent" right up until she hits a Spanish word/name/place and then she shifts into almost a parody of a Latina delivery to speak just that one word, before shifting back to newsspeak.  It makes me clench.

God, I see that all the time from various local news anchors. It bugs the hell out of me.

You'd prefer a more Anglo pronunciation?


The blatant artificiality of the hard switch betrays any concept of "authentic" pronunciation.
 
2020-10-01 3:18:40 PM  

RedVentrue: Some people think too much about gender.


See also: vegan, crossfit.
 
2020-10-01 3:22:12 PM  

Corn_Fed: HotWingConspiracy: Corn_Fed: deadsanta: There's a "Latinx" host on NPR who just drives me nuts every afternoon the way she virtue-signals her race and cultural sensitivity every minute. Can't recall her name, but she has a classic "news accent" right up until she hits a Spanish word/name/place and then she shifts into almost a parody of a Latina delivery to speak just that one word, before shifting back to newsspeak.  It makes me clench.

God, I see that all the time from various local news anchors. It bugs the hell out of me.

You'd prefer a more Anglo pronunciation?

The blatant artificiality of the hard switch betrays any concept of "authentic" pronunciation.


Let me guess, they do it to virtue signal?
 
2020-10-01 3:24:10 PM  

Needlessly Complicated: DoBeDoBeLurk: Needlessly Complicated: Let me summarize this and every argument about Latinx:

White people: "Latinx" was created by Latinos themselves and non-binary people.
Latinos: Most Latinos don't use this, a lot don't like it. It's fine if non-binary people or others want to use it, though.
White people: We will call all of you Latinx and you'll like it! If you don't like it, you're the racist!
Latinos: ....

Can I suggest something? Just ask the person you're talking to what they would like to be called. You aren't being "woke" or "respectful" assuming stuff about a large number of people.

Have you read the thread? Show me the white people who are demanding I use "x" and like it. I am also not seeing a lot of people asking me what I'd like to be called. I am seeing folks saying we don't even need the word "nonbinary" and that anyone who says "I'm Latinx" is a token, or not of Latin-American heritage. And some surprising irritation that people who know how Spanish words are pronounced have the GALL to pronounce them that way on the news. Oh, and Danny Trejo, of all people, trying to police my use of "Hispanic" and "Mexican."

Some of us use X! "Nonbinary" is not a designation that exists entirely outside of "Latino." Would it kill ya to write Latino/a/x? If some of us don't like it, they don't have to call themselves that! But I'd like the option for myself, thanks. Unless you've got something better.

Well, that whidbey guy, for example. He calling eeeeerrryone a bigot up in here. He doesn't speak for me, he's not standing up for me (or anyone, really) and I don't think he's being respectful.

Did you read the thread yourself? What I'm saying and what I've always said is that if you like and want to use Latinx, feel free! Just, maybe, can we accept that not every person of Latin American origin necessarily accepts/likes/recognizes or even knows that term. You have a preference of what you like to be called and I respect that (and will note for future referen ...


Whidbey likes to call everyone in any thread a bigot. He thinks it makes him look taller.
 
2020-10-01 3:28:38 PM  

Needlessly Complicated: Well, that whidbey guy, for example. He calling eeeeerrryone a bigot up in here. He doesn't speak for me, he's not standing up for me (or anyone, really) and I don't think he's being respectful.

Did you read the thread yourself? What I'm saying and what I've always said is that if you like and want to use Latinx, feel free! Just, maybe, can we accept that not every person of Latin American origin necessarily accepts/likes/recognizes or even knows that term. You have a preference of what you like to be called and I respect that (and will note for future reference), I'm just asking for the same respect. I don't like Latinx, I would like to be called Latina, if I must be referred to by ethnic background.

And, no, people aren't asking what people like to be called, and it's a problem. I think asking or telling what your preference is is really the best way to handle things, like with people's pronouns. Then again, I'm cis-het so my experience is different than yours. So feel free to disagree.


Whidbey speaks for whidbey and is inviting FARK funnies for yelling at many people, including some who are not qualifying their dislike of "x" with any indication they'd use it if asked. Also at people saying only white people use it, which is a dumb thing to say as one can fine multiple instances of non-white usage. That farker has me on ignore and is often not very smart, but telling me what words I'm allowed to use for myself is at the very least patronizing as hell.

"o/a/x" on a form is not radical, and certainly not eugenics or doing any harm to a culture, like someone is actually tying to argue above. If you're going to acknowledge what I (and people like me) would like to be called, then you should include it as an option. So there's a third category which you need to consider before going off about how white people call Latinos racist.

Also Latino/a/x: I use this either for myself or people I know who prefer it, and I'd like to see it included. Not used as a replacement in every instance, just included as a gender neutral option.

You're excluding other people of your ethnicity to pay attention to some white folks. You don't necessarily need to involve white college professors/students to have this conversation, not when people who are not white college professors/students still use it. You don't use it for yourself and you will if other people ask you to use it for them. Okay. So you don't need to make a value judgement of the word or fence it off as something white people are trying to force on us. It looks funny, but it has a purpose and you say you're okay using it.

The only trouble we're going to run into is "x" being used by itself as a gender-neutral option for groups - on protests signs, forms, and other places where space is at a premium. In Spanish, "o" is accepted to include "a," but that looks weird in English, and we don't have a decision on whether "o" includes "x" or "x" includes "o" and "a." It may shake out differently for English vs. Spanish.

But we're not mature enough to have that discussion of grammar in here, where people are horselaughing at the idea that I could prefer "x" just for myself and complaining that I use too many words to talk about complicated things.
 
2020-10-01 3:39:20 PM  

ColonelCathcart: The Reverend Sam Hill: ColonelCathcart: The Reverend Sam Hill: ColonelCathcart: The Reverend Sam Hill: I found this while looking for the above list. It's in Spanish, if you can read it, about the X and the @ used for gender-neutral Spanish. It seems that some Spanish speakers do use the X, to the displeasure of the pundits:

[Fark user image image 768x432]

Not all of the gender words have an X though, so they're mixing it up.

Just the one that refers to a human being.

False:

The "nos" refers to the people holding the sign or those people being killed

The "las" refers to the person (2nd person molestar, conditional?) the people holding the sign are apologizing to for bothering

[Fark user image 346x750]

[price-is-right-fail-horn.mp3]

"Nos" is invariable. "Las" is feminine because "molestias" is feminine. "Pardon the disturbance. They are killing us. Not one more!"

Molestar isn't feminine? When did verbs get gender in Spanish?


molestia
Del lat. molestia.
1. f. Acción y efecto de molestar o molestarse.
2. f. Desazón originada de leve daño físico o falta de salud.
3. f. Falta de comodidad o impedimento para el libre movimiento del cuerpo, originada por algo que lo oprime o lastima.
 
2020-10-01 3:41:49 PM  

g.fro: DoBeDoBeLurk: ...

Some of us use X! "Nonbinary" is not a designation that exists entirely outside of "Latino." Would it kill ya to write Latino/a/x? If some of us don't like it, they don't have to call themselves that! But I'd like the option for myself, thanks. Unless you've got something better.

So once again, what is wrong with using the word "Latin"?


Latin-America. Latin-American. Latino/a/x.
scu.eduView Full Size

Latin.
the-low-countries.comView Full Size


You wanna reclaim "Latin" so you won't have to learn a new suffix, you are free to try. You will also have to sell Danny Trejo on "Chican," not to mention "Norteamerican" and perhaps "rubi" for blond/e people. And as far as the structure looking weird to native speakers, that also looks extremely weird.

And are you white at all? Because I understand you telling me what to call myself is particularly rude from a white person. Not to ignore it being rude otherwise.
 
2020-10-01 3:50:11 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: Let me guess, they do it to virtue signal?


I personally don't have a problem with it but the thought crosses my mind that the speaker feels self-conscious of not being Latin enough and is trying to overcompensate. Maybe they're really white, didn't speak Spanish at home, didn't grow up eating "traditional" foods, some combo of those 3.

/shrug
 
2020-10-01 4:00:03 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: g.fro: DoBeDoBeLurk: ...

Some of us use X! "Nonbinary" is not a designation that exists entirely outside of "Latino." Would it kill ya to write Latino/a/x? If some of us don't like it, they don't have to call themselves that! But I'd like the option for myself, thanks. Unless you've got something better.

So once again, what is wrong with using the word "Latin"?

Latin-America. Latin-American. Latino/a/x.
[scu.edu image 425x500]
Latin.
[the-low-countries.com image 850x495]

You wanna reclaim "Latin" so you won't have to learn a new suffix, you are free to try. You will also have to sell Danny Trejo on "Chican," not to mention "Norteamerican" and perhaps "rubi" for blond/e people. And as far as the structure looking weird to native speakers, that also looks extremely weird.

And are you white at all? Because I understand you telling me what to call myself is particularly rude from a white person. Not to ignore it being rude otherwise.


Theres nothing wrong with keeping LaTIN for ancient folk and using LaTEEN for the modern folk (spelled as Latin, of course).
 
2020-10-01 4:00:54 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: ...

Latin-America. Latin-American. Latino/a/x.
[scu.edu image 425x500]
Latin.
[the-low-countries.com image 850x495]

You wanna reclaim "Latin" so you won't have to learn a new suffix, you are free to try. You will also have to sell Danny Trejo on "Chican," not to mention "Norteamerican" and perhaps "rubi" for blond/e people. And as far as the structure looking weird to native speakers, that also looks extremely weird.

And are you white at all? Because I understand you telling me what to call myself is particularly rude from a white person. Not to ignore it being rude otherwise.


No one is going to confuse "Latin" when referring to people from Latin America with Ancient Romans, just as no one confuses "Anglo" when referring to North Americans with Ancient Germans.

"Latin" has long been the accepted English-language adjective for people or things from or pertaining to Latin America.

And the English language doesn't have gender, so why the need for a gender-neutral suffix when such a concept is alien to English?
 
2020-10-01 4:04:40 PM  

ColonelCathcart: Needlessly Complicated: DoBeDoBeLurk: ColonelCathcart: Molestar isn't feminine? When did verbs get gender in Spanish?

"Disturbance" vs. "to disturb." It's not a reflexive verb, that doesn't make any sense in context and it's not a verb form. "Pardon bother the females." Protest signs aren't always perfect, but that's obviously supposed to be "Pardon the (multiple instances of) disturbance." "Nos" means "us" and is the same for both genders, formal and informal - unless there's a different dialect somewhere I'm unaware of. Google will explain this stuff for you if you need.

"molestia" (a bother) = noun form of the verb "molestar" (to bother)

As such, this noun is gendered ("la/una molestia").

But the las here refers to a reflexive verb and applies a gender to the people on which the action is being committed.

That was my beef with Rev'


Respectfully, it doesn't. In that sign, "las" is the article for "molestias."
In this sentence: "Disculpen las molestias" the subject is you (understood), the verb is disculpen, and "las molestias" is the object, followed by a subordinate clause "pero nxs están matando" (but they (subj, also understood) are killing (verb) us (object)).

"Excuse the disturbances, but they are killing us" would be a good translation.

/sorry, I'm a grammar nerd in 2 languages :)
 
2020-10-01 4:08:48 PM  

g.fro: And the English language doesn't have gender, so why the need for a gender-neutral suffix when such a concept is alien to English?


Because without it I can't broadcast my wokeness.
 
2020-10-01 4:20:13 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: g.fro: DoBeDoBeLurk: ...

Some of us use X! "Nonbinary" is not a designation that exists entirely outside of "Latino." Would it kill ya to write Latino/a/x? If some of us don't like it, they don't have to call themselves that! But I'd like the option for myself, thanks. Unless you've got something better.

So once again, what is wrong with using the word "Latin"?

Latin-America. Latin-American. Latino/a/x.
[scu.edu image 425x500]
Latin.
[the-low-countries.com image 850x495]

You wanna reclaim "Latin" so you won't have to learn a new suffix, you are free to try. You will also have to sell Danny Trejo on "Chican," not to mention "Norteamerican" and perhaps "rubi" for blond/e people. And as far as the structure looking weird to native speakers, that also looks extremely weird.

And are you white at all? Because I understand you telling me what to call myself is particularly rude from a white person. Not to ignore it being rude otherwise.


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.comView Full Size
 
2020-10-01 4:21:21 PM  

IHadMeAVision: HotWingConspiracy: Let me guess, they do it to virtue signal?

I personally don't have a problem with it but the thought crosses my mind that the speaker feels self-conscious of not being Latin enough and is trying to overcompensate. Maybe they're really white, didn't speak Spanish at home, didn't grow up eating "traditional" foods, some combo of those 3.

/shrug


Jesus.

Yes. Now a blanket term for people of Latin-American heritage which is mostly used in the US by people who come from, say, California instead of Michoacan or Guatemala, is OVERcompensating. Latinx looks SUPER Spanish! Darn that cultural machismx!

It's a term which is first identified in academic use from a university in Puerto Rico. The usage of "x" has a history of being used to make Spanish more Latin-American via the Nahuatl language. It's used mostly in the North American diaspora which happens to include Puerto Rico, as a US territory. It's one of a few competing gender neutral options. They are all funny-looking to people who grew up speaking Spanish, because Spanish has grammatical genders.

Spanish, not unlike English, happens to be a language of colonizers which squashed and absorbed many other unique, beautiful languages. Neither are pure or consistent. You're looking for Esperanto.

Again, nobody is having fits about "bacon," or "soda" or "jumbo jet." Oddly, it's just this effort to make the language more inclusive that's a threat.
 
2020-10-01 4:21:24 PM  
According to a recent Pew Research Center national survey of Latinos, Latinx has not caught on. Only 3% say they use the term and it's mostly young people, ages 18 to 29, who have embraced it.

I keep reading Latinx as linux.

/Looks like it has about the same adoption rate.
 
2020-10-01 4:33:22 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: IHadMeAVision: HotWingConspiracy: Let me guess, they do it to virtue signal?

I personally don't have a problem with it but the thought crosses my mind that the speaker feels self-conscious of not being Latin enough and is trying to overcompensate. Maybe they're really white, didn't speak Spanish at home, didn't grow up eating "traditional" foods, some combo of those 3.

/shrug

Jesus.

Yes. Now a blanket term for people of Latin-American heritage which is mostly used in the US by people who come from, say, California instead of Michoacan or Guatemala, is OVERcompensating. Latinx looks SUPER Spanish! Darn that cultural machismx!

It's a term which is first identified in academic use from a university in Puerto Rico. The usage of "x" has a history of being used to make Spanish more Latin-American via the Nahuatl language. It's used mostly in the North American diaspora which happens to include Puerto Rico, as a US territory. It's one of a few competing gender neutral options. They are all funny-looking to people who grew up speaking Spanish, because Spanish has grammatical genders.

Spanish, not unlike English, happens to be a language of colonizers which squashed and absorbed many other unique, beautiful languages. Neither are pure or consistent. You're looking for Esperanto.

Again, nobody is having fits about "bacon," or "soda" or "jumbo jet." Oddly, it's just this effort to make the language more inclusive that's a threat.


My comment was in reference to hammed up Spanish accents in the midst of an English sentence, I edited out previous responses so people don't need to see the same wall of text for the 8th time but in retrospect I probably should have left the context in because it was kinda off-topic.
 
2020-10-01 4:33:41 PM  

waxbeans: El_Dan: waxbeans: El_Dan: Lifeless: IHadMeAVision: I kind of consider it a direct attack on the Spanish language. If they wanted Latino/Latina to be gender-neutral they could just say what my Puerto Rican mom has been saying her whole life: Latin.

That's exactly what it is. One of the professors they quoted in the article spelled it out really quite plainly, "Spanish is the original language of colonialism."

Every widespread living language was at some time or another a language of colonialism. You want a language that hasn't been spoken by people who took other peoples' land, better look to either a remote tribe or Esperanto.

Yes but Spanish only exist because of Spain and Spain was always a colonializer

Yes, Spain first colonized Spain by taking it from the Muslims. Who had taken it from the Visigoths. Who had taken it from the Vandals. Who had taken it from the Romans. Who had taken it from the Carthaginians. Etc.

And pretty much every other chunk of land and the dominant linguistic group that occupies it has a similar history. You think the Aztecs were the original settlers of the area they occupied when the Spanish met them?

My point I don't understand why Spanish is used after Spain is kicked out of the area.


most of the world doesn't have an issue with being bi or tri lingual
 
2020-10-01 4:34:55 PM  
I listen to a lot of Eastern Europe dance pop and it's not at all unusual for them to speak six or seven languages
 
2020-10-01 4:35:33 PM  

Lifeless: DoBeDoBeLurk: g.fro: DoBeDoBeLurk: ...

Some of us use X! "Nonbinary" is not a designation that exists entirely outside of "Latino." Would it kill ya to write Latino/a/x? If some of us don't like it, they don't have to call themselves that! But I'd like the option for myself, thanks. Unless you've got something better.

So once again, what is wrong with using the word "Latin"?

Latin-America. Latin-American. Latino/a/x.
[scu.edu image 425x500]
Latin.
[the-low-countries.com image 850x495]

You wanna reclaim "Latin" so you won't have to learn a new suffix, you are free to try. You will also have to sell Danny Trejo on "Chican," not to mention "Norteamerican" and perhaps "rubi" for blond/e people. And as far as the structure looking weird to native speakers, that also looks extremely weird.

And are you white at all? Because I understand you telling me what to call myself is particularly rude from a white person. Not to ignore it being rude otherwise.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 300x168]


Context! Again, if you want to use Latin as a gender neutral replacement for Latino, you will be calling groups of people "Latins" and "Latin people." Latins would be a new usage, same as Latinx, and you are welcome to try. Latin people or peoples has an unclear meaning - which I am basing on the fact that if you plug "latin people" into Google you get Romans as your first result, then Latin Americans and Latinos, all of which are different. Latin GRAMMY is obviously related to Latin America, because it's a modern thing. You are also ignoring the fact that it's meant to be used as a suffix. "Elle es muy flac," is not a huge improvement over "flacx" or "flace."

And remember, it is still super rude to tell people what to call themselves! I'm not going to roll up and announce, "I'm a Latin!" I'd sound like goddamn Ralph Wiggum from the Simpsons. That usage doesn't even have the 3% or so of people who use Latinx to recommend it.
 
2020-10-01 4:39:10 PM  

elgrancerdo: Latinx is a made up problem by LGBTQ+ Latinos in USA.  To them I have this
[i.kym-cdn.com image 600x600]

Back in the 90's, when I was young and woke, our problems were different:
[memegenerator.net image 700x469]
[i.pinimg.com image 386x499]
[i.pinimg.com image 640x670]
[raw.githubusercontent.com image 630x800]

/ unfortunately, it is all still the same, and now we have your Latinx BS.  Piss off


^^^^ THIS.

Thanks
 
2020-10-01 4:39:15 PM  

Tad_Waxpole: "LatinX" is just the newest way for woke white people to virtue signal on Twitter.


Romantic languages have gendered vocabularies which don't currently take into account evolving communities. This is a natural linguistic progression. Get on board or get left behind, you anachronistic ass.
 
2020-10-01 4:42:07 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: Lifeless: DoBeDoBeLurk: g.fro: DoBeDoBeLurk: ...

Some of us use X! "Nonbinary" is not a designation that exists entirely outside of "Latino." Would it kill ya to write Latino/a/x? If some of us don't like it, they don't have to call themselves that! But I'd like the option for myself, thanks. Unless you've got something better.

So once again, what is wrong with using the word "Latin"?

Latin-America. Latin-American. Latino/a/x.
[scu.edu image 425x500]
Latin.
[the-low-countries.com image 850x495]

You wanna reclaim "Latin" so you won't have to learn a new suffix, you are free to try. You will also have to sell Danny Trejo on "Chican," not to mention "Norteamerican" and perhaps "rubi" for blond/e people. And as far as the structure looking weird to native speakers, that also looks extremely weird.

And are you white at all? Because I understand you telling me what to call myself is particularly rude from a white person. Not to ignore it being rude otherwise.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 300x168]

Context! Again, if you want to use Latin as a gender neutral replacement for Latino, you will be calling groups of people "Latins" and "Latin people." Latins would be a new usage, same as Latinx, and you are welcome to try. Latin people or peoples has an unclear meaning - which I am basing on the fact that if you plug "latin people" into Google you get Romans as your first result, then Latin Americans and Latinos, all of which are different. Latin GRAMMY is obviously related to Latin America, because it's a modern thing. You are also ignoring the fact that it's meant to be used as a suffix. "Elle es muy flac," is not a huge improvement over "flacx" or "flace."

And remember, it is still super rude to tell people what to call themselves! I'm not going to roll up and announce, "I'm a Latin!" I'd sound like goddamn Ralph Wiggum from the Simpsons. That usage doesn't even have the 3% or so of people who use Latinx to recommend it.


I agree. Latin is a misnomer; there's nothing wrong with using Hispanic to describe a hugely varied group of people, many of whom only have a mother tongue in common.

Preaching about it only contributes to the "I left the old country and now I will replace my old culture with the aspects of my new one that I deem better" that so many people in this thread and the article have mentioned.
 
2020-10-01 4:47:46 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: ...

Context! Again, if you want to use Latin as a gender neutral replacement for Latino, you will be calling groups of people "Latins" and "Latin people." Latins would be a new usage, same as Latinx, and you are welcome to try. Latin people or peoples has an unclear meaning - which I am basing on the fact that if you plug "latin people" into Google you get Romans as your first result, then Latin Americans and Latinos, all of which are different. Latin GRAMMY is obviously related to Latin America, because it's a modern thing. You are also ignoring the fact that it's meant to be used as a suffix. "Elle es muy flac," is not a huge improvement over "flacx" or "flace."

And remember, it is still super rude to tell people what to call themselves! I'm not going to roll up and announce, "I'm a Latin!" I'd sound like goddamn Ralph Wiggum from the Simpsons. That usage doesn't even have the 3% or so of people who use Latinx to recommend it.


English doesn't need a gender-neutral replacement for anything, because English doesn't have gender. So you are trying to import a foreign idea into the language, just so you can then fight against it.

And anyone trying to argue that the use of "Latin" to refer to people from Latin America is either new or confusing is either misinformed or deliberately dishonest.
 
2020-10-01 4:48:39 PM  

waxbeans: elgrancerdo: Latinx is a made up problem by LGBTQ+ Latinos in USA.  To them I have this
[i.kym-cdn.com image 600x600]

Back in the 90's, when I was young and woke, our problems were different:
[memegenerator.net image 700x469]
[i.pinimg.com image 386x499]
[i.pinimg.com image 640x670]
[raw.githubusercontent.com image 630x800]

/ unfortunately, it is all still the same, and now we have your Latinx BS.  Piss off

Coconut?


Fark user imageView Full Size


Dude...
 
2020-10-01 4:50:21 PM  

TheGreatGazoo: A door doesn't have genitals, yet Spanish deems it female


FTFY

La puerta

And as for genitals and doors, haven't you heard of polishing someone's knob?
 
2020-10-01 4:53:25 PM  

IHadMeAVision: My comment was in reference to hammed up Spanish accents in the midst of an English sentence, I edited out previous responses so people don't need to see the same wall of text for the 8th time but in retrospect I probably should have left the context in because it was kinda off-topic.


This is still not great. It's a decision you have to make when you're bilingual or even just understand how the words are pronounced. Am I going to say "flan" (American) or "flan" (Spanish)? I usually modulate depending on my audience, but when I get self-conscious I skew American, because of that thing you think. I know you're going to think I'm faking it, and my accent isn't going to be perfect if I use it, so I'll act whiter because that's considered the default and I grew up using English.

Depending on your community, your newspeople may assume they're going to be addressing a partly Spanish-speaking and bilingual audience, and depending on their heritage, Spanish words may just look like they need to be pronounced like that. Newsperson-talk is its own dialect anyway, highly unnatural even in English alone.

Watching English and Spanish-speakers who weren't local trying to say "Port Hueneme" was always great fun, because it's taken from Chumash. Local news knew it. Whenever something happened there that warranted national coverage or even from LA, it was about 50/50, and tourists had no idea. "Where's Hwee... Hunem..." "Port Hueneme? Okay, you're almost there..."
 
2020-10-01 5:01:22 PM  

g.fro: English doesn't need a gender-neutral replacement for anything, because English doesn't have gender. So you are trying to import a foreign idea into the language, just so you can then fight against it.

And anyone trying to argue that the use of "Latin" to refer to people from Latin America is either new or confusing is either misinformed or deliberately dishonest.


It seems very counter-intuitive to try to emphasize the inclusiveness of your new term by breaking the customs of the only thing that completely unifies the various groups of people that you're trying to bring together.  And again, looking at the figures in the article, it would appear that a majority of Latin people would agree with me on some level.
 
2020-10-01 5:04:13 PM  

Quemapueblo: NikolaiFarkoff: I've asked both a Puerto Rican and Mexican friend (both in the 25-40 age group) pretty directly and they both said basically the same thing: It's a term for teenagers and/or woke university professors.

I'm just a lowly Gringx (sorry, Norteamericanx) but it rubs me the wrong way on basic grammar for Romance languages.

La Gente Latina
El Pueblo Latino
etc

Just wait until you hear about "todes", "chiques" or "nosotres"...


All totally valid up here is Catalonia, they just mean different things. 😁
 
2020-10-01 5:07:05 PM  

g.fro: English doesn't need a gender-neutral replacement for anything, because English doesn't have gender. So you are trying to import a foreign idea into the language, just so you can then fight against it.


OMG. You don't even want to be asked to call women "Latina" if they want? "Latino" will do for everyone, even Needless above, who prefers "Latina." English has no genders! Give back all the loanwords and their associated grammar then. You will need to come up with a replacement for blond/e, among many others which have nothing to do with gender but do come with their own rules. Enjoy speaking the Queen's English. We don't want no foreign language here.

g.fro: And anyone trying to argue that the use of "Latin" to refer to people from Latin America is either new or confusing is either misinformed or deliberately dishonest.


Context! If you're going to replace the grammatical function of "Latino/a/x" entirely with Latin, you will be using it in new and exciting and dumb ways! And here you are telling people who use Latino, Latina AND Latinx to get farked.

Show me someone who uses the form "I'm a Latin!" and "Latins" to talk about themselves and our culture and I will apologize for insulting their identity, otherwise you're making it up. And you are completely ignoring the use as a suffix in Spanish-speaking countries and for other gendered loanwords.

And you are still trying to tell multiple people what to call themselves!
 
2020-10-01 5:07:14 PM  
I'm the biggest lib ever but I believe trying to make Spanish gender neutral is the stupidest idea:

First in Spanish, not only the nouns are gender specific, then you have the articles (few exceptions) and most adjectives that come with it that have to match the gender of the noun so it is grammatically correct, otherwise you may end up with something really silly like:

Lxs Latinxs son muy atractivxs y orgullosxs de ellxs mismxs
(Latinxs are very attractive and proud of themselves)
 
2020-10-01 5:08:54 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: Show me someone who uses the form "I'm a Spanish!" and "Spanishes" to talk about themselves and our culture and I will apologize for insulting their identity, otherwise you're making it up.


I changed the nationality to specifically indicate where you're butchering English in addition to Spanish.
 
2020-10-01 5:09:50 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: IHadMeAVision: My comment was in reference to hammed up Spanish accents in the midst of an English sentence, I edited out previous responses so people don't need to see the same wall of text for the 8th time but in retrospect I probably should have left the context in because it was kinda off-topic.

This is still not great. It's a decision you have to make when you're bilingual or even just understand how the words are pronounced. Am I going to say "flan" (American) or "flan" (Spanish)? I usually modulate depending on my audience, but when I get self-conscious I skew American, because of that thing you think. I know you're going to think I'm faking it, and my accent isn't going to be perfect if I use it, so I'll act whiter because that's considered the default and I grew up using English.


I tend to use Spanish for words I came across in Spanish first via my mom's family (mostly for foods less common in the English speaking world like flan, platanos, gandules, pernil, etc) but I don't switch to full-blown Spanish accent for it, it seems a bit pretentious. If I realize the person I'm talking to doesn't know Spanish I'd try to correct myself.
 
2020-10-01 5:09:57 PM  

Jairzinho: I'm the biggest lib ever but I believe trying to make Spanish gender neutral is the stupidest idea:

First in Spanish, not only the nouns are gender specific, then you have the articles (few exceptions) and most adjectives that come with it that have to match the gender of the noun so it is grammatically correct, otherwise you may end up with something really silly like:

Lxs Latinxs son muy atractivxs y orgullosxs de ellxs mismxs
(Latinxs are very attractive and proud of themselves)


Hindi works like that too.

A lot of languages do.
 
2020-10-01 5:12:42 PM  

RussianPotato: orbister: waxbeans: I totally see how Spanish leaves less to be desired when it's hardcore binary.

I see no need to pander to people whose view of gender is so hardcore binary that they need to invent the term "non-binary".

Honestly, what the hell happened to the world?

When I was growing up I was firmly taught that gender roles were a bunch of bullshiat.  An able bodied woman could be a firefighter or a cop or a fighter pilot.  An able bodied man could do ballet, or dance, or be a nurse, or be a teacher.  It didn't matter because gender had nothing to do with competence in any area.  You're a man and want to knit?  Awesome, turns out if you ask around a LOT of jocks like to knit because it's calming as F.

Now gender roles are so freaking set in stone and definitive of life that poeple have to be "non-binary" if they enjoy something that "belongs" to the other gender?  What the hell is wrong with these people?

"I don't conform to any gender roles."

BIG FREAKING WHOOP.  Almost nobody conforms to every stereotype of their gender.  Most people are too complex for that.


In Newfoundland, everyone knits.  One day, a highway enforcement officer spied a truck driver knitting furiously as he cruised down the highway.  The officer sped after him, sirens screaming, and came abreast of the open driver's side window:

"HEY!!  PULL OVER!!"

The truck driver looks at him curiously and continues down the road.

"HEY!!  HEY YOU!!  PULL OVER!!"

After 4 exchanges the truck driver finally slows and pulls off to the side.  The officer, by now furious, leaps out of his car and, upon reaching the truck driver, berates him:

"WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP WHEN I ORDERED YOU THE FIRST, SECOND AND THIRD TIME?"

To which the truck driver replied, "Well, you said pull over but as you can see, I'm making a cardigan..."

/Shamelessly nicked from The Shipping News by Annie Proulx.  I think it was on Dumb and Dumber also.
 
2020-10-01 5:15:39 PM  

Jairzinho: I'm the biggest lib ever but I believe trying to make Spanish gender neutral is the stupidest idea:

First in Spanish, not only the nouns are gender specific, then you have the articles (few exceptions) and most adjectives that come with it that have to match the gender of the noun so it is grammatically correct, otherwise you may end up with something really silly like:

Lxs Latinxs son muy atractivxs y orgullosxs de ellxs mismxs
(Latinxs are very attractive and proud of themselves)


I don't think making Spanish gender-neutral would be worth the effort but you could easily do it by replacing those "x"s with "e"s.  Using X really smacks of imposition by a northern intelligentsia and not something that the majority of Latin peoples would have done for themselves.
 
2020-10-01 5:18:03 PM  

panrock: where they're pushing the diversity and inclusion agenda (mostly for LGBT issues but nothing on class issues which are admittedly a bigger problem in Mexico than the former)


Diversity and inclusion used to be called the Golden Rule, treat others as you want to be treated.

If you can't even try to refer to someone in a way that doesn't offend them, or can't even be bothered to try, you're ignorant.

Also, love the what about ist on how class are a 'bigger' issue... straight male like typing detected.
 
2020-10-01 5:23:38 PM  

Jairzinho: I'm the biggest lib ever but I believe trying to make Spanish gender neutral is the stupidest idea:

First in Spanish, not only the nouns are gender specific, then you have the articles (few exceptions) and most adjectives that come with it that have to match the gender of the noun so it is grammatically correct, otherwise you may end up with something really silly like:

Lxs Latinxs son muy atractivxs y orgullosxs de ellxs mismxs
(Latinxs are very attractive and proud of themselves)


"e" is also in use in majority Spanish countries. Les Latines son muy atractives y orgulloses de elles mismes.

But this is about two different languages and they both may choose a different solution or none at all. I prefer "x" right now in English for use with loanwords. I'm not out to anyone who speaks Spanish to me so I haven't had to make that choice.

We add and get rid of whole letters and pronunciations, as well as adding and messing with new words. The only limit to what a language can do is what people are willing to use. "Bae" is in the Oxford English Dictionary. Emojis may not be far behind. And we're going to crap ourselves over a letter we already use as a placeholder all the time? As in : X-factor, X-ray and Animal X. "Mx." is also in use as a gender neutral prefix.

It's not a matter of language structure. Men are blond, women are blonde, and that's OK. Spanglish is OK. "Da me un bacon" is OK. This is about who we include. And I am just beginning to realize how farking uncomfortable my existence makes others.
 
2020-10-01 5:33:07 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: "e" is also in use in majority Spanish countries. Les Latines son muy atractives y orgulloses de elles mismes


Well, it looks like French that way (NTTAWWT). It may work in written language but I tried to pronounce it and sounds really weird. I'm sure if I say something like that out loud on a street of some Latin city, they would think I'm having a stroke.

Also, I have never seen the "e" in use for that purpose but the @, at least not in the Latin countries I have visited. It must be a niche thing.
 
2020-10-01 5:39:56 PM  

Lifeless: DoBeDoBeLurk: Show me someone who uses the form "I'm a Spanish!" and "Spanishes" to talk about themselves and our culture and I will apologize for insulting their identity, otherwise you're making it up.

I changed the nationality to specifically indicate where you're butchering English in addition to Spanish.


"Hispanic" is the word you're searching for which fulfills that function, and that's why it annoys Danny Trejo (the tweets are a few pages back now) when I use it to identify myself, because I am not literally Spanish. It can be used to include places the Spanish colonized, however.

You have just underlined why "Latin" cannot replace "Latino/a/x." They serve different functions. You are ripping up language just as much if you use "Latin" instead, and we are STILL avoiding the issue of gendered loanwords.

---

IHadMeAVision: I tend to use Spanish for words I came across in Spanish first via my mom's family (mostly for foods less common in the English speaking world like flan, platanos, gandules, pernil, etc) but I don't switch to full-blown Spanish accent for it, it seems a bit pretentious. If I realize the person I'm talking to doesn't know Spanish I'd try to correct myself.


Give Telemudo or Spanish radio a listen with a critical ear. It's less obvious because all the words are over-enunciated like that, like we don't notice it as much when it's just English. It's announcer-voice. In a conversation, it's weird as hell. On the news and radio we expect it, but when we switch languages it sounds weird too. I guess that's another possibility, maybe bilingual newspeople are used to doing announcer-voice in Spanish for different media, so when they use it in Spanish for their news job, they sound like they're about to bring out the ladies on Sabado Gigante.
 
2020-10-01 5:48:44 PM  

Jairzinho: DoBeDoBeLurk: "e" is also in use in majority Spanish countries. Les Latines son muy atractives y orgulloses de elles mismes

Well, it looks like French that way (NTTAWWT). It may work in written language but I tried to pronounce it and sounds really weird. I'm sure if I say something like that out loud on a street of some Latin city, they would think I'm having a stroke.

Also, I have never seen the "e" in use for that purpose but the @, at least not in the Latin countries I have visited. It must be a niche thing.


You've got options. https://en.wikipedia.org/wik​i/Gender_n​eutrality_in_Spanish

I don't have a dog in this fight because the Spanish speakers in my family I'd use it with are pretty darn conservative on gender and sexuality. Many of them are quite liberal on social issues, but not gender and sexuality. And abortion. Like, that's the big three. I'm not gonna send my abuela a card with "Felicidades en tu cumpleaños niete sin género! Wow!"
 
2020-10-01 5:51:31 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: g.fro: English doesn't need a gender-neutral replacement for anything, because English doesn't have gender. So you are trying to import a foreign idea into the language, just so you can then fight against it.

OMG. You don't even want to be asked to call women "Latina" if they want? "Latino" will do for everyone, even Needless above, who prefers "Latina." English has no genders! Give back all the loanwords and their associated grammar then. You will need to come up with a replacement for blond/e, among many others which have nothing to do with gender but do come with their own rules. Enjoy speaking the Queen's English. We don't want no foreign language here.

g.fro: And anyone trying to argue that the use of "Latin" to refer to people from Latin America is either new or confusing is either misinformed or deliberately dishonest.

Context! If you're going to replace the grammatical function of "Latino/a/x" entirely with Latin, you will be using it in new and exciting and dumb ways! And here you are telling people who use Latino, Latina AND Latinx to get farked.

Show me someone who uses the form "I'm a Latin!" and "Latins" to talk about themselves and our culture and I will apologize for insulting their identity, otherwise you're making it up. And you are completely ignoring the use as a suffix in Spanish-speaking countries and for other gendered loanwords.

And you are still trying to tell multiple people what to call themselves!


You live in your own world, don't you?  Do you think blond/blonde has any meaning in English? It doesn't. Gendered words are a feature of Romance languages (among others), so if you want to import words from those languages, but retain their original grammar, you will have to use whatever rules they use in their own language. And before you start playing around with the construction of the Spanish language, you might want to consult la Real Acadamia, because Spanish, unlike English, is a prescriptivist language.
 
2020-10-01 5:52:39 PM  

Todd300: panrock: where they're pushing the diversity and inclusion agenda (mostly for LGBT issues but nothing on class issues which are admittedly a bigger problem in Mexico than the former)

Diversity and inclusion used to be called the Golden Rule, treat others as you want to be treated.

If you can't even try to refer to someone in a way that doesn't offend them, or can't even be bothered to try, you're ignorant.

Also, love the what about ist on how class are a 'bigger' issue... straight male like typing detected.


Having such a difficult time determining someone's intent is a display of ignorance

and not a useful tool for dealing with a variety of situations

if someone tells you I prefer to be referred to as such then that's a different ball game
 
2020-10-01 6:11:37 PM  

akya: I keep reading Latinx as linux.

/Looks like it has about the same adoption rate.


I thought this was the year for having Latinx on the desktop. Turns out you can be fired for that. Who knew?
 
2020-10-01 6:16:15 PM  

Todd300: If you can't even try to refer to someone in a way that doesn't offend them, or can't even be bothered to try, you're ignorant.


I'm perfectly willing to call someone with one hand inside his jacket and a tricorn hat on his head "Mon Empereur" if it makes him happy, but it doesn't make him Napoleon.
 
2020-10-01 6:24:48 PM  

Latinwolf: chozo13: The only people who use the term 'Latinx', are those to which the term doesn't apply.

Indeed, much like the term "POC" is not used by actual people of color.


We prefer the term 'Niggex'
 
2020-10-01 6:26:38 PM  

g.fro: DoBeDoBeLurk: ...

Context! Again, if you want to use Latin as a gender neutral replacement for Latino, you will be calling groups of people "Latins" and "Latin people." Latins would be a new usage, same as Latinx, and you are welcome to try. Latin people or peoples has an unclear meaning - which I am basing on the fact that if you plug "latin people" into Google you get Romans as your first result, then Latin Americans and Latinos, all of which are different. Latin GRAMMY is obviously related to Latin America, because it's a modern thing. You are also ignoring the fact that it's meant to be used as a suffix. "Elle es muy flac," is not a huge improvement over "flacx" or "flace."

And remember, it is still super rude to tell people what to call themselves! I'm not going to roll up and announce, "I'm a Latin!" I'd sound like goddamn Ralph Wiggum from the Simpsons. That usage doesn't even have the 3% or so of people who use Latinx to recommend it.

English doesn't need a gender-neutral replacement for anything, because English doesn't have gender. So you are trying to import a foreign idea into the language, just so you can then fight against it.

And anyone trying to argue that the use of "Latin" to refer to people from Latin America is either new or confusing is either misinformed or deliberately dishonest.


Tell that to our "mother tongue" or the following:

God bless America.
Land that I love.
Stand beside her,
and guide her

And so on and so forth.
 
2020-10-01 6:27:03 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: Give Telemudo or Spanish radio a listen with a critical ear. It's less obvious because all the words are over-enunciated like that, like we don't notice it as much when it's just English. It's announcer-voice. In a conversation, it's weird as hell. On the news and radio we expect it, but when we switch languages it sounds weird too. I guess that's another possibility, maybe bilingual newspeople are used to doing announcer-voice in Spanish for different media, so when they use it in Spanish for their news job, they sound like they're about to bring out the ladies on Sabado Gigante.


Good point, I didn't really think of that. I'm more thinking of random people I've known who do not speak for living at all, nevermind in two languages.
 
2020-10-01 6:27:51 PM  

Ragin' Asian: ...
Tell that to our "mother tongue" or the following:

God bless America.
Land that I love.
Stand beside her,
and guide her

And so on and so forth.


...What?
 
2020-10-01 6:28:26 PM  

g.fro: You live in your own world, don't you?  Do you think blond/blonde has any meaning in English? It doesn't. Gendered words are a feature of Romance languages (among others), so if you want to import words from those languages, but retain their original grammar, you will have to use whatever rules they use in their own language. And before you start playing around with the construction of the Spanish language, you might want to consult la Real Acadamia, because Spanish, unlike English, is a prescriptivist language.


So close! So close to understanding the use of a loanword vs. a word in its native language! We have to use whatever rules they use in their own language... except when we don't.

The evolution of blond and blonde, with a discussion of gendered loanwords: https://www.cjr.org/analys​is/blondes_b​runettes_chaperone.php

We DON'T retain the original grammar of loanwords, we use them however we want. They are loanwords. We have made them English. People are having scholarly arguments about whether it's spelled "chaperone," because regardless of the original source, it's being used in English as English now.

When women who are in any way Hispanic are addressed with a gendered loanword, most of them prefer that you modulate the gender. You can get all snotty and yell, "WE DON'T USE IT LIKE THAT HERE! O/A HAS NO MEANING IN ENGLISH!" and... I don't know. I'd say about half will be so caught off guard that you get away with it and the other half will unload on you. Or you can behave like a human being and treat people like they ask to be treated.

"X" is a gender-neutral suffix that's being used in Spanish-speaking countries AND in the USA with gendered loanwords. The reasons are the same, but either language may end up using something else, or two different constructs. It is a made up suffix. All language is made up. A pencil does not self-identify as a gender or care. A person does care.

If you're going to be a language Nazi and cite purity, there are a lot of words and structures English needs to stop using, and you will be telling a lot of Latinas, "Stop that. We don't gender English. You're Latino." Also, for Spanish, all the indigenous influence on Spanish in Latin America has GOT to go. You WILL start using "vosotros," and a "taco" will not be a tasty snack, but a drywall anchor or a chunk of something.

Language doesn't care. You're not going to freeze language and I don't see you trying. "X" and"@" and "E" and all the rest are not doing any more damage to Spanish than "jumbo jet." You're running so fast to defend an abstract concept that you don't seem to care about the actual people who are asking to be included.

But it's not as if I expect you to read this. You didn't come here to read.
 
2020-10-01 6:34:08 PM  

DoBeDoBeLurk: "Stop that. We don't gender English. You're Latin."


We don't call Italians Italianos or Italianas. We call them Italians. So let me fix that for you
 
Displayed 50 of 324 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | » | Newest | Show all


View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking





On Twitter



  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.