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(Japan Times)   Japan declares war on the fax machine. This is not an article from 1995   (japantimes.co.jp) divider line
    More: Amusing, Fax, Internet fax, first hanko, administrative reform minister, Taro Kono, fax machine, administrative work, hanko stamp  
•       •       •

4172 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Sep 2020 at 8:05 PM (3 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-09-27 7:20:44 PM  
...one of the most common complaints that caught his attention, he said, was the fact that certain types of writing utensils - such as fountain pens and ballpoint pens - are often required when signing names for application forms.

I *love* my Japanese Ohto brand ballpoint pens:

I have the Horizon in black:
cdn.shopify.comView Full Size


And the Multi-function (black, red, and pencil):
cdn.shopify.comView Full Size


These are well-made, relatively inexpensive pens. I ordered them from a stationery store in Portland, Oregon. Little Otsu.

Use them for journal writing. My handwriting sucks, but these are nice pens to write with, and the small-ish looking refills seem to last a long time.
 
2020-09-27 8:07:24 PM  
Tell that to hospitals violating hipaa laws with every unsecured page sent.
 
2020-09-27 8:07:54 PM  
Not a fax, but close enough.

Office Space - Printer Scene (UNCENSORED)
Youtube N9wsjroVlu8
 
2020-09-27 8:10:24 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-27 8:15:32 PM  
Yeah, it's two years old.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-27 8:17:58 PM  
I've heard this for a while. While Japan has a lot of advanced technology, they're oddly stuck in the past in a number of ways. Flip phones are still in vogue, for instance.
 
2020-09-27 8:19:46 PM  
Had to send documents to state tax dep. Has so much fun when they said I could just fax them in. I don't own a Telegraph.
 
2020-09-27 8:20:19 PM  

Unobtanium: ...one of the most common complaints that caught his attention, he said, was the fact that certain types of writing utensils - such as fountain pens and ballpoint pens - are often required when signing names for application forms.

I *love* my Japanese Ohto brand ballpoint pens:

I have the Horizon in black:
[cdn.shopify.com image 250x250]

And the Multi-function (black, red, and pencil):
[cdn.shopify.com image 250x250]

These are well-made, relatively inexpensive pens. I ordered them from a stationery store in Portland, Oregon. Little Otsu.

Use them for journal writing. My handwriting sucks, but these are nice pens to write with, and the small-ish looking refills seem to last a long time.


How are they for signing on a tablet screen, or an electronic signature pad?

Because that's the crux of the issue, the mandate to sign things in ink means no electronic signatures.
 
2020-09-27 8:24:06 PM  
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2020-09-27 8:24:29 PM  

Hills-Sachs_Legion: How are they for signing on a tablet screen, or an electronic signature pad?

Because that's the crux of the issue, the mandate to sign things in ink means no electronic signatures.


Yeah, I get that. Japanese companies do make some fine writing instruments, though.
 
2020-09-27 8:26:22 PM  
If you're going to the effort of dropping hanko/chops, why would you replace them with signatures... another anachronism only slightly more credible than astrology and phrenology?  Let alone "signatures" smeared with your fingertip on a 180x40 pixel digitizer?

At least in the digital realm of things, a modern PKI/smartcard signature is so much better than a chicken scratch John Hancock, and the technology to do that well is over 30 years old now.  There are ways to translate that into physical documents (at the risk of fedora-tipping, one actually valid use of blockchains).
 
2020-09-27 8:28:08 PM  

LarryDan43: Tell that to hospitals violating hipaa laws with every unsecured page sent.


Dead wrong.  The US government regulations are so clear that even FARK readers can usually understand them.

A fax is just fine as long as both machines are placed where non authorized people can't easily see it.
- Example don't place it right next to the check-in station.  Put it around the corner where the patients walking by can't see it.

A regular email is just fine as long as both accounts are only accessed by people who are authorized to see the emails.
- Example don't use a generic public account that the temp reads.

A copy machine doesn't need any super secret squirrel encryption.
- Example either don't save copies on the hard drive or if you do wipe it before getting rid of the machine.

Not that the clear rules will stop liars, ah, I mean salespeople, from claiming that you need to buy their latest overpriced cr*p, ah, I mean solution.
 
2020-09-27 8:29:39 PM  

stuffy: Had to send documents to state tax dep. Has so much fun when they said I could just fax them in. I don't own a Telegraph.


Hell, when I dealt with New Jersey on a property matter 5-6 years back, I had to FedEx in documents on proper-bond-weight watermarked paper.  Standard paper would not do, let alone a fax.
 
2020-09-27 8:30:59 PM  
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2020-09-27 8:35:15 PM  
Fun fact about Fax Machines:

North Korea still uses Fax Machines to send threats to South Korea.
 
2020-09-27 8:38:44 PM  

Herr Morgenstern: I've heard this for a while. While Japan has a lot of advanced technology, they're oddly stuck in the past in a number of ways. Flip phones are still in vogue, for instance.


Japan is a mature culture. And while they're obsessed with innovation and fads, actual lasting chages are slow to roll out.

How slow?  They still have some business customs leftover from the Edo Period when younger samurai were seated back to the door because they were more expendable if enemies attacked, and while it might be an anachronism from the bubble era trying to revive the bushido spirit in salarymen, I'm personally convinced they just figured out a way that works and stuck with.
 
2020-09-27 8:43:10 PM  

Herr Morgenstern: I've heard this for a while. While Japan has a lot of advanced technology, they're oddly stuck in the past in a number of ways. Flip phones are still in vogue, for instance.


Not really. Once the iPhone came out they transitioned pretty fast. There are still some people using flip phones there just as there are in the US but not many.
 
2020-09-27 8:49:58 PM  

leeksfromchichis: Herr Morgenstern: I've heard this for a while. While Japan has a lot of advanced technology, they're oddly stuck in the past in a number of ways. Flip phones are still in vogue, for instance.

Japan is a mature culture. And while they're obsessed with innovation and fads, actual lasting chages are slow to roll out.

How slow?  They still have some business customs leftover from the Edo Period when younger samurai were seated back to the door because they were more expendable if enemies attacked, and while it might be an anachronism from the bubble era trying to revive the bushido spirit in salarymen, I'm personally convinced they just figured out a way that works and stuck with.


You know why we have the Best Man at weddings? B/c in the medieval days, a bride might not be a willing participant in her own wedding. Her dad, brothers, etc might crash the wedding and try to take her back. The Best Man was the Best Man w/ a Sword, and could fight off others who would try to interrupt. Something to consider if your friends get engaged.
 
2020-09-27 8:50:03 PM  
I have spent hundreds of hours driving back and forth to cancelled phone migrations because the fax lines. 

The previous place I worked was full of old women. It took forever to convince them that faxes were a waste, and were easy via VOIP. Farking morons
 
2020-09-27 8:50:38 PM  

TheSubjunctive: If you're going to the effort of dropping hanko/chops, why would you replace them with signatures... another anachronism only slightly more credible than astrology and phrenology?  Let alone "signatures" smeared with your fingertip on a 180x40 pixel digitizer?

At least in the digital realm of things, a modern PKI/smartcard signature is so much better than a chicken scratch John Hancock, and the technology to do that well is over 30 years old now.  There are ways to translate that into physical documents (at the risk of fedora-tipping, one actually valid use of blockchains).


The hanko is actually a perfect means to do digital signing - stick a chip in it. Then you can both stamp as normal, or digitally sign. Don't put in shiatty pixel digitizers; put in chip readers.
 
2020-09-27 8:51:56 PM  
FWIW, one reason fax machines are still around in some industries (healthcare, law enforcement, corrections, government, banking) is that fax infrastructure is considered "secure" in their rules and regulations, while transmission by other avenues such as email is not.

Change at that level tends to take a very long time, especially since most fax traffic is between different agencies that each have rules and regulations that they have to follow which would need to be amended.
 
2020-09-27 8:54:17 PM  
I have a signature stamp around here somewhere.  I used to have to "sign" a shiatload of forms back in the day.  Last time I used a fax was probably 3-4 years ago.  The bank had followup questions about a dispute and snail-mailed me a form.  My options for returning were snail-mail or fax.  Just for the lulz, I figured out how to fax it.  Filled out the form, scanned it, and used 7 of the 10 free pages of a fax service promo.  Somehow, that is secure while email is not.  I wonder if they actually printed that fax and have it stored in a box somewhere.  Or of they printed it, scanned it, then shredded the paper version.
 
2020-09-27 8:55:49 PM  
I recently stared taking my pet to a new vet.  They needed the pharmacist's fax number to send a prescription.  I guess it was either that or have the village barber blend a tincture.
 
2020-09-27 9:02:15 PM  

Herr Morgenstern: I've heard this for a while. While Japan has a lot of advanced technology, they're oddly stuck in the past in a number of ways. Flip phones are still in vogue, for instance.


Lots of reasons for this. Japanese are frugal in a lot of ways, and they are getting older, which makes adoption of new technologies.... less likely.

They like it that way. If it aint broke, dont fix it, right? Is it really broke? Not really. SO meh.
 
2020-09-27 9:09:46 PM  
One of the forms my company has online requires you enter a fax number.  If you do not supply one, you can not submit the form.  I've mentioned this dumb requirement a few times, but it doesn't get fixed because the form was created by our Tokyo office and faxes are still a big thing over there.

Technically, I could remove the flag that makes it a required field, but I won't jeopardize my job over it.
 
2020-09-27 9:12:26 PM  

Excelsior: FWIW, one reason fax machines are still around in some industries (healthcare, law enforcement, corrections, government, banking) is that fax infrastructure is considered "secure" in their rules and regulations, while transmission by other avenues such as email is not.

Change at that level tends to take a very long time, especially since most fax traffic is between different agencies that each have rules and regulations that they have to follow which would need to be amended.


Less that it is secure, it is more that there is a long legal precedent of using the technology. Cheaper using otherwise outdated methods than having to pay a law firm to represent you when every ambulance chaser senses a few thousand in a settlement.
 
2020-09-27 9:17:20 PM  
Japan has far less than its share of fraud and scandals from what I can tell. I am pretty convinced that people elsewhere, and specifically in the US, play fast and loose with all kinds of things, credit cards, Western Union, credit cards, checks, contracts, credit cards, store credit, ID cards, consumer information, and did I say credit cards?

Whereas Japan slams the brakes on fraud in a lot of cases simply by requiring proper hanko, bank verification, certification, credit checks, and faxes. Even a real phone number. Oh. It is irritating red tape, unless you are a lender, a banker,  or property owner. Any serious person knows that red tape protects you. A fax machine puts one more hurdle between fraudsters and your money.

You know how US businesses combat fraud? They require a credit card. That is how screwed up the US system is. Buyers and sellers have surrendered literally everything for convenience. You do you, America. Hope it works out.
 
2020-09-27 9:23:05 PM  

TheSubjunctive: stuffy: Had to send documents to state tax dep. Has so much fun when they said I could just fax them in. I don't own a Telegraph.

Hell, when I dealt with New Jersey on a property matter 5-6 years back, I had to FedEx in documents on proper-bond-weight watermarked paper.  Standard paper would not do, let alone a fax.


Fark that.

My side business involves something called "faxbacks" (but are increasingly called "scanbacks") which is where I scan a huge pile of paper, about 120 - 200 pages, and then upload it.

And then...get this...I also get to FedEx (usually, but sometimes UPS) it. And that's after I printed out two copies (one for the client to keep, one to send back) to begin with. That's about a ream of paper a day, sometimes more.

This all seems ridiculous, but it's mostly an issue of legacy systems and integration not happening as quickly as you think it would. But I can't complain, because it's good, easy money and it's kind of fun too. Usually.
 
2020-09-27 9:24:33 PM  

TheSubjunctive: If you're going to the effort of dropping hanko/chops, why would you replace them with signatures... another anachronism only slightly more credible than astrology and phrenology?  Let alone "signatures" smeared with your fingertip on a 180x40 pixel digitizer?

At least in the digital realm of things, a modern PKI/smartcard signature is so much better than a chicken scratch John Hancock, and the technology to do that well is over 30 years old now.  There are ways to translate that into physical documents (at the risk of fedora-tipping, one actually valid use of blockchains).


I'm trying to wrap my head around how they haven't switched to a system like PKI with PKI you can authentic and have reputable evidence as to who has signed.
 
2020-09-27 9:32:39 PM  

stuffy: Had to send documents to state tax dep. Has so much fun when they said I could just fax them in. I don't own a Telegraph.


We had to fax a thing to the IRS.

Fortunately our business VOIP comes with a virtual fax.

... Indeed, we use faxes fairly often, because governments and some vendors are stuck in the 90s.
 
2020-09-27 9:39:21 PM  
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2020-09-27 9:39:53 PM  
How bad of a lawyer do you have to be in order to think you could lose a contract case because you didn't have a fax of an original signature (instead of any one of a dozen more convenient and practical ways of proving the client accepted terms)?  I mean you'd have to be flintstones level of stupid.
 
2020-09-27 9:40:38 PM  

Heliodorus: Excelsior: FWIW, one reason fax machines are still around in some industries (healthcare, law enforcement, corrections, government, banking) is that fax infrastructure is considered "secure" in their rules and regulations, while transmission by other avenues such as email is not.

Change at that level tends to take a very long time, especially since most fax traffic is between different agencies that each have rules and regulations that they have to follow which would need to be amended.

Less that it is secure, it is more that there is a long legal precedent of using the technology. Cheaper using otherwise outdated methods than having to pay a law firm to represent you when every ambulance chaser senses a few thousand in a settlement.


Well. If it were outdated, then nobody would use it.

Could it be, as you say, just dumb inertia? Really? Japanese people just can't innovate. Is that it?

That cant be it. One must then wonder WHY it is useful not THAT it is useful, natch.

For example, I remember a time when buying a telephone number cost 700 bucks. Fax line? Another 700 bucks. You eliminate a lot of idiots by raising the price of admission. It works. Could that be part of it?

I guess, you know, everyone has a good laugh at Japan's expense. The English teachers come here for a year or two and figure it all out and tell Japan how to do it right. Haha Herpy derpy. They miss the logical problem because they are not really that smart. Some get a gig writing for the Japan Times.

Nobody, and certainly not the Japan Times, stops to think that maybe Japan has figured some things out that nobody back home took the time to think about. Why would we expect a quiet, patient people with a long cultural history to figure things out?

One can not cure oneself of Dunning-Kruger if one always assumes one knows everything. But one CAN become an English teacher with far fewer credentials.

It bears repeating.

/ The Japan TImes is shameless. They print a story like this every year. Going on 20 years now.
 
2020-09-27 9:41:49 PM  
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2020-09-27 9:43:45 PM  
also:
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2020-09-27 9:51:09 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-27 9:53:09 PM  

stevesporn2000: Herr Morgenstern: I've heard this for a while. While Japan has a lot of advanced technology, they're oddly stuck in the past in a number of ways. Flip phones are still in vogue, for instance.

Not really. Once the iPhone came out they transitioned pretty fast. There are still some people using flip phones there just as there are in the US but not many.


I know this will sound Grandpa as hell, but I am going back to a flip phone.  I am ordering a couple refurb Razor3's.  I have had 4 iterations of smart phone.  All of them were android (Apple just isn't for me).  After 4 iterations I have come to the conclusion that I really don't care for smart phones.  The devices have come to feel Orwellian to me.  The only other possibility is a bootloader unlocked device in order to install some linux distro, but I don't really know where to look.
 
2020-09-27 10:00:15 PM  
They're just practicing.
 
2020-09-27 10:03:29 PM  

2fardownthread: Japan has far less than its share of fraud and scandals from what I can tell. I am pretty convinced that people elsewhere, and specifically in the US, play fast and loose with all kinds of things, credit cards, Western Union, credit cards, checks, contracts, credit cards, store credit, ID cards, consumer information, and did I say credit cards?

Whereas Japan slams the brakes on fraud in a lot of cases simply by requiring proper hanko, bank verification, certification, credit checks, and faxes. Even a real phone number. Oh. It is irritating red tape, unless you are a lender, a banker,  or property owner. Any serious person knows that red tape protects you. A fax machine puts one more hurdle between fraudsters and your money.

You know how US businesses combat fraud? They require a credit card. That is how screwed up the US system is. Buyers and sellers have surrendered literally everything for convenience. You do you, America. Hope it works out.


I am no expert, but as a customer, my card issuer assumes liability for any fraudulent losses at that point.  Is it different on the business side?  I thought liability for fraud was visa's cut includes.  Again, I have very limited experience in this area.  Can any Farkers speak to how the CC system works for fraud liability?
 
2020-09-27 10:06:43 PM  
Recently the boss sent a customer something saying just send us a fax of something (I think something didn't print out right and we needed to see what was wrong with the formatting).

I tell the boss the fax was disconnected 3 years ago when we went through the log and had received 6 faxes in the prior year and all of them were scams.
 
2020-09-27 10:14:17 PM  

MIRV888: I know this will sound Grandpa as hell, but I am going back to a flip phone.  I am ordering a couple refurb Razor3's.  I have had 4 iterations of smart phone.  All of them were android (Apple just isn't for me).  After 4 iterations I have come to the conclusion that I really don't care for smart phones.  The devices have come to feel Orwellian to me.  The only other possibility is a bootloader unlocked device in order to install some linux distro, but I don't really know where to look.


If you haven't already bought the Razr's, I strongly suggest you don't.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but they will be completely unusable very shortly, because the Razr V3 doesn't support 4G OR 3G, and still depends on the 2G network frequencies.
Unfortunately for you, all of the carriers are actively in the process of shutting down that part of their network to re-use those frequencies for other purposes.
(The 4 listed below are the only ones operating their own network, all the smaller ones like Cricket, Mint, etc. all lease network access with these 4 as well which means that they too will stop supporting 2G devices)

https://www.digi.com/blog/post/2g-3g-​4​g-lte-network-shutdown-updates
Verizon: End of 2020 (originally planned for the end of 2019)
T-Mobile: December 2020
Sprint: December 2021
AT&T: Already discontinued 2G in 2016
 
2020-09-27 10:24:35 PM  

2fardownthread: Heliodorus: Excelsior: FWIW, one reason fax machines are still around in some industries (healthcare, law enforcement, corrections, government, banking) is that fax infrastructure is considered "secure" in their rules and regulations, while transmission by other avenues such as email is not.

Change at that level tends to take a very long time, especially since most fax traffic is between different agencies that each have rules and regulations that they have to follow which would need to be amended.

Less that it is secure, it is more that there is a long legal precedent of using the technology. Cheaper using otherwise outdated methods than having to pay a law firm to represent you when every ambulance chaser senses a few thousand in a settlement.

Well. If it were outdated, then nobody would use it.

Could it be, as you say, just dumb inertia? Really? Japanese people just can't innovate. Is that it?

That cant be it. One must then wonder WHY it is useful not THAT it is useful, natch.

For example, I remember a time when buying a telephone number cost 700 bucks. Fax line? Another 700 bucks. You eliminate a lot of idiots by raising the price of admission. It works. Could that be part of it?

I guess, you know, everyone has a good laugh at Japan's expense. The English teachers come here for a year or two and figure it all out and tell Japan how to do it right. Haha Herpy derpy. They miss the logical problem because they are not really that smart. Some get a gig writing for the Japan Times.

Nobody, and certainly not the Japan Times, stops to think that maybe Japan has figured some things out that nobody back home took the time to think about. Why would we expect a quiet, patient people with a long cultural history to figure things out?

One can not cure oneself of Dunning-Kruger if one always assumes one knows everything. But one CAN become an English teacher with far fewer credentials.

It bears repeating.

/ The Japan TImes is shameless. They print a story like this ...



lol, this is the most weeabo thing I've read in a while.
 
2020-09-27 10:32:49 PM  

MIRV888: stevesporn2000: Herr Morgenstern: I've heard this for a while. While Japan has a lot of advanced technology, they're oddly stuck in the past in a number of ways. Flip phones are still in vogue, for instance.

Not really. Once the iPhone came out they transitioned pretty fast. There are still some people using flip phones there just as there are in the US but not many.

I know this will sound Grandpa as hell, but I am going back to a flip phone.  I am ordering a couple refurb Razor3's.  I have had 4 iterations of smart phone.  All of them were android (Apple just isn't for me).  After 4 iterations I have come to the conclusion that I really don't care for smart phones.  The devices have come to feel Orwellian to me.  The only other possibility is a bootloader unlocked device in order to install some linux distro, but I don't really know where to look.


https://forum.xda-developers.com/
https://lineageos.org/
https://opengapps.org/

Poke around on xda to find the forum for your phone, or the phone you'd want to use and see what ROMs are available for it.

I'm using a modded version of LOS 17.1 - Android 10 on my Samsung S4.

Google apps are a separate install(3rd link) so you can completely avoid it if you want or just install the wanted bits.
 
2020-09-27 11:35:00 PM  
Pony Express is still good tho?
 
2020-09-27 11:58:31 PM  
img.memecdn.comView Full Size
 
2020-09-28 12:00:03 AM  
Fax? Isn't that the opposite of fiction?
 
2020-09-28 12:00:37 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-28 12:08:00 AM  

Moosedick Gladys Greengroin: Pony Express is still good tho?


Fun fact: for all of its cultural resonance, the Pony Express lasted less than two years.
 
2020-09-28 12:22:08 AM  

derpes_simplex: [Fark user image 850x568]
[Fark user image 427x647]


yooooooooooo
Youtube VKMw2it8dQY
 
2020-09-28 1:03:20 AM  
I work in logistics and there no way you can stop some vendors and official license organisations from using faxes. They annoying thing is half the time it goes to a fax web service and you download it as a pdf. The day we can get them to stop using these will be the day I am happy. Until then I will keep having to add a fax service into transport management systems.
 
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