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(KTLA Los Angeles)   Michael Vick is working doggedly to restore voting rights to felons in Florida   (ktla.com) divider line
    More: Cool, Felony, Michael Bloomberg, former NFL quarterback Michael Vick, Elections, Democracy, voting rights restoration process, Conviction, Voting  
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1767 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 27 Sep 2020 at 9:53 PM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



116 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2020-09-27 9:55:49 PM  
Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.
 
2020-09-27 9:57:05 PM  
Also, Vic is still an asshole for what he did to those poor dogs, but this is a step in the right direction to redeem himself.  Just a hundred thousand more steps to go.
 
2020-09-27 9:57:46 PM  
No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.
 
2020-09-27 9:57:59 PM  

winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.


I dunno, maybe seeing blacks and jews buy their rights back and seeing the GOP fight them tooth and nail will reach some of them.
 
2020-09-27 9:59:14 PM  

winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.


You're so cool.
 
2020-09-27 10:03:13 PM  

winedrinkingman: Also, Vic is still an asshole for what he did to those poor dogs, but this is a step in the right direction to redeem himself.  Just a hundred thousand more steps to go.


This. I'm super glad this dude is trying to redeem himself. But it takes a special kind of sadistic to torture dogs. Like, that will always be in the back of my mind.

But good for him. Real redemption is about striving for redemption, not about attaining it.
 
2020-09-27 10:06:39 PM  

Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.


Tom Coughlin agrees.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-27 10:07:41 PM  
It's a dog fight dog world and I'm wearing  underoos  underwear or...something.
 
2020-09-27 10:08:21 PM  

Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.


eh. I have no problem with him trying to do good. I also see pretty much no way i could consider him redeemed until he dies and we can view the balance of his deeds. Until then, he is welcome to keep trying in earnest.
 
2020-09-27 10:14:11 PM  

Natalie Portmanteau: winedrinkingman: Also, Vic is still an asshole for what he did to those poor dogs, but this is a step in the right direction to redeem himself.  Just a hundred thousand more steps to go.

This. I'm super glad this dude is trying to redeem himself. But it takes a special kind of sadistic to torture dogs. Like, that will always be in the back of my mind.

But good for him. Real redemption is about striving for redemption, not about attaining it.


I don't believe he's honestly trying to redeem himself. I believe he's trying to redeem his image. He never genuinely apologized for his involvement with animal cruelty. His subsequent charities have been proven scams to bolster his faltering financial situation. He's a less successful Donald Trump, which is quite a low bar.
 
2020-09-27 10:14:56 PM  

Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.


This is a good post.
 
2020-09-27 10:15:35 PM  
I'm not a felon so I don't have a dog in this fight.
 
2020-09-27 10:16:22 PM  

Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.


He did his time.
 
2020-09-27 10:21:11 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-27 10:21:20 PM  
I don't care if Vick cures cancer... fark him.
 
2020-09-27 10:23:58 PM  

winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.


That's exactly the thing those groups will use to tie it up in the courts until after the election.  Fortunately many won't take the money out of blind hate.
 
2020-09-27 10:30:02 PM  

Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.


Yeah, no excon should vote like this Vick guy...wtf noble cause my ass.

I agree that once you do your time you have paid the debt owed to society for your crime and your rights should be restored, until you fark up again.
 
2020-09-27 10:30:57 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.


I fully support ex-felons who've done their time and have taken sincere steps toward rehabilitation to regain their right to vote. He may have done the former but he has certainly not done the latter. I completely admit I tolerate cruelty towards dogs less than I do against crimes against people.
Fark user imageView Full Size


Cora on the left was two years old when I adopted her. She had just had a litter and was found wandering the streets. This was in Pittsburgh, which is why I have a particular Ire for Vick.
 
2020-09-27 10:42:44 PM  
Mike Bloomberg is helping felons vote in Florida by donating 16 million dollars to an organization that helps felons regain the right to vote.

Heartwarming really. We desperately need the wisdom and judgment of Florida (and Virginia) felons to help guide our country in these trying times.
 
2020-09-27 10:48:10 PM  
If you're stupid enough to commit a crime that results in a felony conviction, you're likely too stupid to consider the issues enough to be able to cast a vote.
 
2020-09-27 10:50:51 PM  
It suddenly got stupid in here. JFC
 
2020-09-27 10:53:23 PM  

Ragin' Asian: Natalie Portmanteau: winedrinkingman: Also, Vic is still an asshole for what he did to those poor dogs, but this is a step in the right direction to redeem himself.  Just a hundred thousand more steps to go.

This. I'm super glad this dude is trying to redeem himself. But it takes a special kind of sadistic to torture dogs. Like, that will always be in the back of my mind.

But good for him. Real redemption is about striving for redemption, not about attaining it.

I don't believe he's honestly trying to redeem himself. I believe he's trying to redeem his image. He never genuinely apologized for his involvement with animal cruelty. His subsequent charities have been proven scams to bolster his faltering financial situation. He's a less successful Donald Trump, which is quite a low bar.


I wrote a very long reply, but fark ate it.

In a nutshell, I totally get what you're saying. I think animal abusers are absolutely shiat. But he's had his due process (pathetic as it was) and is doing some good now. The AFSPA he championed is a good thing. He tells kids dogfighting is farked up. Im not sure i care why he's doing it, at least he's doing it. Why should be allowed to ooze into obscurity like some common republican?

The even shorter version "you shouldn't tell a passenger in a sinking boat to stop bailing because he's a rapist. You put him up front so everyone can keep an eye on him"

/respect. I love animals, dogs in particular.
//I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to life imprisonment for serious animal cruelty
/// still think we should let assholes try to help, if they're not using it as a cover for more misdeeds.
 
2020-09-27 10:54:32 PM  

Marshmallow Jones: If you're stupid enough to commit a crime that results in a felony conviction, you're likely too stupid to consider the issues enough to be able to cast a vote.


if intelligence, not having a biased stick up ones ass, and understanding issues was the standard, only 10% or less would be allowed to vote.  But those voters would say any of these politicians weren't worth the time spent at the poll.
 
2020-09-27 10:55:52 PM  
Good.  When he is done with this one good deed, he should cover himself in meat juice, tie himself to the ground, and have dogs eat him alive.  Then we can say he is redeemed.  Until then, he is a dog abuser and nothing else.  He shouldn't even be allowed to have a name.  He should be known as "Piece of shiat Dog Abuser 964823".  When he is consumed by dogs, he may be called "Michael Vick Dog shiat".
 
2020-09-27 10:57:14 PM  

austin_millbarge: I don't care if Vick cures cancer... fark him.


Agreed. But I still hope he cures cancer if nobody else does.
 
2020-09-27 10:59:55 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.


Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.
 
2020-09-27 11:00:58 PM  

Marshmallow Jones: If you're stupid enough to commit a crime that results in a felony conviction, you're likely too stupid to consider the issues enough to be able to cast a vote.


may want to Google some of the things that result in felony convictions.

The problem with our... ahem... justice system is it doesn't serve justice first, it serves various financial and political interests, then "order", then, maybe justice. If you don't think people who had an ounce of weed, or (in some states) traffic fines over a certain amount, aren't capable of deciding which of two options should be in charge... well, I don't know what to tell you.
 
2020-09-27 11:02:45 PM  

Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.


Why, do you want Neo Nazis and white supremacists to benefit from acts of charity?
 
2020-09-27 11:03:47 PM  

Natalie Portmanteau: Ragin' Asian: Natalie Portmanteau: winedrinkingman: Also, Vic is still an asshole for what he did to those poor dogs, but this is a step in the right direction to redeem himself.  Just a hundred thousand more steps to go.

This. I'm super glad this dude is trying to redeem himself. But it takes a special kind of sadistic to torture dogs. Like, that will always be in the back of my mind.

But good for him. Real redemption is about striving for redemption, not about attaining it.

I don't believe he's honestly trying to redeem himself. I believe he's trying to redeem his image. He never genuinely apologized for his involvement with animal cruelty. His subsequent charities have been proven scams to bolster his faltering financial situation. He's a less successful Donald Trump, which is quite a low bar.

I wrote a very long reply, but fark ate it.

In a nutshell, I totally get what you're saying. I think animal abusers are absolutely shiat. But he's had his due process (pathetic as it was) and is doing some good now. The AFSPA he championed is a good thing. He tells kids dogfighting is farked up. Im not sure i care why he's doing it, at least he's doing it. Why should be allowed to ooze into obscurity like some common republican?

The even shorter version "you shouldn't tell a passenger in a sinking boat to stop bailing because he's a rapist. You put him up front so everyone can keep an eye on him"

/respect. I love animals, dogs in particular.
//I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to life imprisonment for serious animal cruelty
/// still think we should let assholes try to help, if they're not using it as a cover for more misdeeds.


I intellectually understand your point. Sometimes one's gut gets in the way and I realize that's what's happening here for me. Perhaps his intentions are genuine, but it's going to take a long time for me to forgive him for his crimes.

/I won't say no to the money he raises getting reformed ex-felons to vote.
//Scruples are weird things.
///Vote, damn you! I don't care for whom!
 
2020-09-27 11:04:20 PM  
Just to add, there are plenty of people who haven't ever committed a felony and either don't vote at all or vote how others tell them to. Anyone at this point voting for Trump has a mental illness or are misogynistic racists or are fascists. Or two of the three. Or all three. They still get to vote.

And Vick is dog shiat. Anyone who can torture another living being is a sociopath or psychopath or some "path". Also, keep an eye on him because that is not a trait that goes away. However, I'll welcome just about anybody who is helping restore civil rights. Just keep an eye on him because he might eat your poodle.
 
2020-09-27 11:07:04 PM  

EdgeRunner: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.


jail time ought to be reformative.  It ought to primarily support education and psychological health. We're supposed to have a justice system, not a punishment system.

Now, I agree that you have to be completely farked in the head to torture an animal (including man), and have a special love if dogs.  And I agree he should have been the recipient of total seizure of assets and a very long prison sentence. But that's not how the system is set up (which we should reform, but that's a whole other thing).

So maybe focus your anger on totally unrepentant assholes, and not people who can use their (admittedly undeserved) wealth and influence to do some good, regardless of their motivation.

Or not, I'm just some guy. YMMV
 
2020-09-27 11:12:05 PM  
Florida is something else...a lot of those red states are. "Been convicted of a crime? No soup for you!"

Meanwhile, in the whole US it's almost impossible to get a self-sustaining job or housing if you have a record, and you lose your housing benefits if you even shelter someone who's starting over. How does that improve things? How does that break the cycle? Instead, Florida has people living under effing bridges because they fall under those rules or because they're sex offenders & can't live within [X] feet of a [fill in the blank]. How does their having  no fixed address make anyone safer? How does not having healthcare - especially mental health - services make the community any safer or more stable?

On a tear. I've just abandoned twitter due to the absolute geyser of soul-crushing news relating to our descent into a fiefdom run by a tin-pot dictator, now I guess I need to abandon Fark, as well...or at least stop commenting.
 
2020-09-27 11:14:30 PM  

Ragin' Asian: Natalie Portmanteau: Ragin' Asian: Natalie Portmanteau: winedrinkingman: Also, Vic is still an asshole for what he did to those poor dogs, but this is a step in the right direction to redeem himself.  Just a hundred thousand more steps to go.

This. I'm super glad this dude is trying to redeem himself. But it takes a special kind of sadistic to torture dogs. Like, that will always be in the back of my mind.

But good for him. Real redemption is about striving for redemption, not about attaining it.

I don't believe he's honestly trying to redeem himself. I believe he's trying to redeem his image. He never genuinely apologized for his involvement with animal cruelty. His subsequent charities have been proven scams to bolster his faltering financial situation. He's a less successful Donald Trump, which is quite a low bar.

I wrote a very long reply, but fark ate it.

In a nutshell, I totally get what you're saying. I think animal abusers are absolutely shiat. But he's had his due process (pathetic as it was) and is doing some good now. The AFSPA he championed is a good thing. He tells kids dogfighting is farked up. Im not sure i care why he's doing it, at least he's doing it. Why should be allowed to ooze into obscurity like some common republican?

The even shorter version "you shouldn't tell a passenger in a sinking boat to stop bailing because he's a rapist. You put him up front so everyone can keep an eye on him"

/respect. I love animals, dogs in particular.
//I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to life imprisonment for serious animal cruelty
/// still think we should let assholes try to help, if they're not using it as a cover for more misdeeds.

I intellectually understand your point. Sometimes one's gut gets in the way and I realize that's what's happening here for me. Perhaps his intentions are genuine, but it's going to take a long time for me to forgive him for his crimes.

/I won't say no to the money he raises getting reformed ex-felons to vote.
//Scruples are weird things.
///Vote, damn you! I don't care for whom!


No worries. I wantedhim to be tortured and drowned when it happened. If there's actual good being done, I'm ok with evaluating his intentions afterward, but I'm going to stay skeptical til he's dead.
 
2020-09-27 11:15:01 PM  

iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.

Why, do you want Neo Nazis and white supremacists to benefit from acts of charity?


I just believe in this crazy thing called rights and want them upheld for everyone, regardless if I agree with them or not.  I believe people can change for the better.  I know, that's a crazy Idea too, especially here on fark.  I could just go along with the cool kids and deny things to people I don't agree with, but what fun is that?
 
151 [TotalFark]
2020-09-27 11:15:36 PM  

jtown: I'm not a felon so I don't have a dog in this fight.


I am a felon, and I do have a dog in this fight. Thankfully I live in a sane state where I don't lose my farking right to vote because one time I was a damn idiot.

Anybody hurting any animals makes me sick to my farking stomach, literally, and Vick can die in a grease fire, but if this is the guy that's gonna help restore sanity?

Sure. Why not. As long as that's his actual goal and not just to try to make personal gains from it.
 
2020-09-27 11:19:13 PM  
the American Civil Liberties Union estimates is 774,000 people in Florida who can't vote because of outstanding unpaid fines and fees.

Um, I call BS. The incarceration rate in Florida less than 1% and you're telling me that roughly 5% of the non-incarcerated adult population can't vote due to unpaid fines/fees? I suppose it's possible but I'm not buying it.
 
2020-09-27 11:19:32 PM  

Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.

Why, do you want Neo Nazis and white supremacists to benefit from acts of charity?

I just believe in this crazy thing called rights and want them upheld for everyone, regardless if I agree with them or not.  I believe people can change for the better.  I know, that's a crazy Idea too, especially here on fark.  I could just go along with the cool kids and deny things to people I don't agree with, but what fun is that?


The important thing is that you support Neo Nazis and white supremacists.
 
2020-09-27 11:20:03 PM  

powhound: Anyone who can torture another living being is a sociopath or psychopath or some "path".


If that were true there never would have been dogfights, cockfights, bullfights, etc throughout history. We'd almost all be vegetarians. And even human fighting sports would be a minor thing as only practitioners would have interest. The rest of us watch for the violence.

Torturing things for personal gain is pretty much the human condition.
 
2020-09-27 11:25:11 PM  

iamskibibitz: the American Civil Liberties Union estimates is 774,000 people in Florida who can't vote because of outstanding unpaid fines and fees.

Um, I call BS. The incarceration rate in Florida less than 1% and you're telling me that roughly 5% of the non-incarcerated adult population can't vote due to unpaid fines/fees? I suppose it's possible but I'm not buying it.


Why not?

It isn't like all felons are lifers. The average felony could be 5 years or so. The mode could be 1-2.

I see no reason either political faction would want to lie about these numbers.
 
2020-09-27 11:25:55 PM  
Let MV redeem himself. Nobody is 100% good or bad, and the government must represent felons, too. It only makes sense for a wealthy person with a criminal record to help his demographic vote. There is no hypocrisy in his help. I say, good for him, good for them, and democracies should represent everyone who lives within their jurisdictions.
 
151 [TotalFark]
2020-09-27 11:26:10 PM  

Smackledorfer: powhound: Anyone who can torture another living being is a sociopath or psychopath or some "path".

If that were true there never would have been dogfights, cockfights, bullfights, etc throughout history. We'd almost all be vegetarians. And even human fighting sports would be a minor thing as only practitioners would have interest. The rest of us watch for the violence.

Torturing things for personal gain is pretty much the human condition.


That's The farking problem. I don't know what point you're trying to make. Raising cattle to feed your family vs laughing at bucks butting heads? fark are you on about?

Humans haven't done that shiat until quite recently.
 
2020-09-27 11:26:45 PM  

EdgeRunner: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.


True, for the Jeffrey Dahmer types.  But what is the difference between getting animals to fight each other, and shooting wild animals and watching them bleed out and die in the forests?   How are dog fighting and cock fighting and bull fighting and bear baiting any different from hunting and sport fishing and feed lots and chicken farms?  Americans seem to vilify one and glorify the other because one is considered an ethnic activity and the other is considered a good white hobby and industry.  When in reality it is all bad.
 
2020-09-27 11:28:44 PM  

Natalie Portmanteau: EdgeRunner: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.

jail time ought to be reformative.  It ought to primarily support education and psychological health. We're supposed to have a justice system, not a punishment system.

Now, I agree that you have to be completely farked in the head to torture an animal (including man), and have a special love if dogs.  And I agree he should have been the recipient of total seizure of assets and a very long prison sentence. But that's not how the system is set up (which we should reform, but that's a whole other thing).

So maybe focus your anger on totally unrepentant assholes, and not people who can use their (admittedly undeserved) wealth and influence to do some good, regardless of their motivation.

Or not, I'm just some guy. YMMV


All I'm saying is that the system you rightfully believe we should have is nothing like the one we've got, and Vick's behavior proved him to be someone that only a fool would ever trust again. I find it incredibly naive when people airly say "Oh, he served his time" as if that made everything right. Unless he served all that time in a psychiatrist's office, where some incredible breakthrough uncovered all his personal demons and repaired his damaged soul, I doubt we've heard the last of Vick doing something atrocious.

I'm not burning with hate for the man. I just don't believe he's actually changed.
 
2020-09-27 11:30:34 PM  

Smackledorfer: powhound: Anyone who can torture another living being is a sociopath or psychopath or some "path".

If that were true there never would have been dogfights, cockfights, bullfights, etc throughout history. We'd almost all be vegetarians. And even human fighting sports would be a minor thing as only practitioners would have interest. The rest of us watch for the violence.

Torturing things for personal gain is pretty much the human condition.


It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be. I certainly won't argue that human history is chock full of savagery. But I would argue that if we devoted a small fraction of the effort we spent on blowing each other up on developing lab grown meats we wouldn't have to torture animals to have a steak. (Or suffer the ecological disaster that is industrial farming)

But the human psyche has a fairly neat trick to insulate the mind from the idea that eating veal is morally equivalent to eating a child.

/not a vegan ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
2020-09-27 11:33:06 PM  

Smackledorfer: iamskibibitz: the American Civil Liberties Union estimates is 774,000 people in Florida who can't vote because of outstanding unpaid fines and fees.

Um, I call BS. The incarceration rate in Florida less than 1% and you're telling me that roughly 5% of the non-incarcerated adult population can't vote due to unpaid fines/fees? I suppose it's possible but I'm not buying it.

Why not?

It isn't like all felons are lifers. The average felony could be 5 years or so. The mode could be 1-2.

I see no reason either political faction would want to lie about these numbers.


hell, not all felons go to prison. (Though I suspect they have the money to pay their fines)

If you make a plea deal, and still get the conviction but avoid jail, do you pay fees? I'd guess deal by deal.
 
2020-09-27 11:33:25 PM  

NM Volunteer: EdgeRunner: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.

True, for the Jeffrey Dahmer types.  But what is the difference between getting animals to fight each other, and shooting wild animals and watching them bleed out and die in the forests?   How are dog fighting and cock fighting and bull fighting and bear baiting any different from hunting and sport fishing and feed lots and chicken farms?  Americans seem to vilify one and glorify the other because one is considered an ethnic activity and the other is considered a good white hobby and industry.  When in reality it is all bad.


Read up on how Vick treated the dogs he was displeased with. His actions weren't as matter-of-fact as you're trying to frame them. He thrived on inflicting cruelty.
 
2020-09-27 11:40:02 PM  

151: Smackledorfer: powhound: Anyone who can torture another living being is a sociopath or psychopath or some "path".

If that were true there never would have been dogfights, cockfights, bullfights, etc throughout history. We'd almost all be vegetarians. And even human fighting sports would be a minor thing as only practitioners would have interest. The rest of us watch for the violence.

Torturing things for personal gain is pretty much the human condition.

That's The farking problem. I don't know what point you're trying to make. Raising cattle to feed your family vs laughing at bucks butting heads? fark are you on about?

Humans haven't done that shiat until quite recently.


The other poster claimed it was some kind of rare, likely genetic based, abnormal psychological illness that caused people like michael vick to enjoy dogfighting. And thus, he cannot be fixed and will eat your poodle.

My point is it is NOT rare, NOT abnormal, and NOT a mental illness. If it were damn near all of Spain would be diagnosable for their bullfighting, and you should never let them out of your sight lest they eat your poodle.

Get it now?

I'm not defending any shiatty actions that shiatty humans make. I'm saying this particular form of shiatty action isn't a mental illness.
 
2020-09-27 11:42:36 PM  

iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.

Why, do you want Neo Nazis and white supremacists to benefit from acts of charity?

I just believe in this crazy thing called rights and want them upheld for everyone, regardless if I agree with them or not.  I believe people can change for the better.  I know, that's a crazy Idea too, especially here on fark.  I could just go along with the cool kids and deny things to people I don't agree with, but what fun is that?

The important thing is that you support Neo Nazis and white supremacists.


And drug dealers, con men, murderers, rapists, gangs... I'm sure I missed a few scary people you don't like, so feel free to add to the list.  The only thing I support is that once someone served their time, their rights should be restored.  Do you really have a problem with that?
 
2020-09-27 11:42:49 PM  

NM Volunteer: EdgeRunner: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.

True, for the Jeffrey Dahmer types.  But what is the difference between getting animals to fight each other, and shooting wild animals and watching them bleed out and die in the forests?   How are dog fighting and cock fighting and bull fighting and bear baiting any different from hunting and sport fishing and feed lots and chicken farms?  Americans seem to vilify one and glorify the other because one is considered an ethnic activity and the other is considered a good white hobby and industry.  When in reality it is all bad.


To start, I oppose hunting for sport. (And for food if you live in a place where you don't have to)

I'd argue that there is still a substantial difference between the mindset required to shoot an animal that was otherwise unaware and the mindset required to ignore the conditions of animals while working in industrial agriculture / willfully torture animals.

I don't mean a moral difference, I mean psychological. Lacking the clarity to realize hunting is a sort of murder doesn't mean you're the type of person that would torture an animal. Hunters shoot for an instant kill (yes, they're just making sure they don't have to walk much, but they're not tryingto be cruel)

You can't raise chickens whose beaks you have to remove to keep them from killing each other and not realize that the animals are suffering.
 
2020-09-27 11:43:20 PM  
Man, his past is really hounding him.
 
2020-09-27 11:44:50 PM  
To add to the above, as it pertains to whether michael Vick can learn from his mistakes and grow as a person, the fact that it isn't indicative of a mental disorder makes it much more likely that he can.

Humans who grow up in societies that promote animal fighting don't see it the way you or I do, and to declare them to be fundamentally broken and inferior humans is a mistake. A borderline racist one at that, if we apply his accusation beyond the individual michael vick.
 
2020-09-27 11:47:35 PM  

Natalie Portmanteau: To start, I oppose hunting for sport. (And for food if you live in a place where you don't have to)


Sport aside, I always find the latter odd.

Deer, waterfowl, fish... All live better lives and suffer less to fill my freezer than almost any animal I buy from the store. And because it is local, the practice encourages protecting the environment to some extent too. Talk to a fisherman about farm runoff from pork or mercury from a coal plant.
 
2020-09-27 11:48:34 PM  

Natalie Portmanteau: NM Volunteer: EdgeRunner: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.

True, for the Jeffrey Dahmer types.  But what is the difference between getting animals to fight each other, and shooting wild animals and watching them bleed out and die in the forests?   How are dog fighting and cock fighting and bull fighting and bear baiting any different from hunting and sport fishing and feed lots and chicken farms?  Americans seem to vilify one and glorify the other because one is considered an ethnic activity and the other is considered a good white hobby and industry.  When in reality it is all bad.

To start, I oppose hunting for sport. (And for food if you live in a place where you don't have to)

I'd argue that there is still a substantial difference between the mindset required to shoot an animal that was otherwise unaware and the mindset required to ignore the conditions of animals while working in industrial agriculture / willfully torture animals.

I don't mean a moral difference, I mean psychological. Lacking the clarity to realize hunting is a sort of murder doesn't mean you're the type of person that would torture an animal. Hunters shoot for an instant kill (yes, they're just making sure they don't have to walk much, but they're not tryingto be cruel)

You can't raise chickens whose beaks you have to remove to keep them from killing each other and not realize that the animals are suffering.


Is there a difference in mindset?  Shooting a deer in the chest with an arrow, and watching it slowly die while full of fear and pain?  Shoving a fish into a bucket of ice so that it suffocates to death?  Making dogs or cocks kill each other for entertainment?  It all involves using and killing animals.  It is all the same mindset of "I'm the human, these animals are here for my entertainment until it is time for me to kill them".  They treat animals, even their own animals (like the hunters who have their dogs ride in the bed of pickups going down highways, or the ones who abuse and leave their dogs behind), as biomechanical tools and equipment and not as living creatures.
 
2020-09-27 11:48:37 PM  

EdgeRunner: Natalie Portmanteau: EdgeRunner: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.

jail time ought to be reformative.  It ought to primarily support education and psychological health. We're supposed to have a justice system, not a punishment system.

Now, I agree that you have to be completely farked in the head to torture an animal (including man), and have a special love if dogs.  And I agree he should have been the recipient of total seizure of assets and a very long prison sentence. But that's not how the system is set up (which we should reform, but that's a whole other thing).

So maybe focus your anger on totally unrepentant assholes, and not people who can use their (admittedly undeserved) wealth and influence to do some good, regardless of their motivation.

Or not, I'm just some guy. YMMV

All I'm saying is that the system you rightfully believe we should have is nothing like the one we've got, and Vick's behavior proved him to be someone that only a fool would ever trust again. I find it incredibly naive when people airly say "Oh, he served his time" as if that made everything right. Unless he served all that time in a psychiatrist's office, where some incredible breakthrough uncovered all his personal demons and repaired his damaged soul, I doubt we've heard the last of Vick doing something atrocious.

I'm not burning with hate for the man. I just don't believe he's actually changed.


Sounds like we agree. I don't think he should be forgiven because he gave the humane society some money. But I don't see why we shouldn't let him keep giving them money.
 
2020-09-27 11:52:32 PM  

Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.

Why, do you want Neo Nazis and white supremacists to benefit from acts of charity?

I just believe in this crazy thing called rights and want them upheld for everyone, regardless if I agree with them or not.  I believe people can change for the better.  I know, that's a crazy Idea too, especially here on fark.  I could just go along with the cool kids and deny things to people I don't agree with, but what fun is that?

The important thing is that you support Neo Nazis and white supremacists.

And drug dealers, con men, murderers, rapists, gangs... I'm sure I missed a few scary people you don't like, so feel free to add to the list.


You could have used fewer words and just said Republicans.
 
2020-09-27 11:53:57 PM  

iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.

Why, do you want Neo Nazis and white supremacists to benefit from acts of charity?

I just believe in this crazy thing called rights and want them upheld for everyone, regardless if I agree with them or not.  I believe people can change for the better.  I know, that's a crazy Idea too, especially here on fark.  I could just go along with the cool kids and deny things to people I don't agree with, but what fun is that?

The important thing is that you support Neo Nazis and white supremacists.

And drug dealers, con men, murderers, rapists, gangs... I'm sure I missed a few scary people you don't like, so feel free to add to the list.

You could have used fewer words and just said Republicans.


That reminds me.  I left off Illinois politicians.
 
2020-09-27 11:54:11 PM  

Jeebus Saves: The only thing I support is that once someone served their time, their rights should be restored.  Do you really have a problem with that?


And I could be wrong on this, but Trump's nominee for SCOTUS is in favour of gun rights for felons but against voting rights for felons, is she not?
 
2020-09-27 11:55:01 PM  

Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.

Why, do you want Neo Nazis and white supremacists to benefit from acts of charity?

I just believe in this crazy thing called rights and want them upheld for everyone, regardless if I agree with them or not.  I believe people can change for the better.  I know, that's a crazy Idea too, especially here on fark.  I could just go along with the cool kids and deny things to people I don't agree with, but what fun is that?

The important thing is that you support Neo Nazis and white supremacists.

And drug dealers, con men, murderers, rapists, gangs... I'm sure I missed a few scary people you don't like, so feel free to add to the list.

You could have used fewer words and just said Republicans.

That reminds me.  I left off Illinois politicians.


Seems that New York politicians are the most corrupt, these days.
 
2020-09-27 11:58:00 PM  

Smackledorfer: Natalie Portmanteau: To start, I oppose hunting for sport. (And for food if you live in a place where you don't have to)

Sport aside, I always find the latter odd.

Deer, waterfowl, fish... All live better lives and suffer less to fill my freezer than almost any animal I buy from the store. And because it is local, the practice encourages protecting the environment to some extent too. Talk to a fisherman about farm runoff from pork or mercury from a coal plant.


Sure, at this moment, the bird you blew out of the sky had been free to live his best bird life til then, far more so than the mutant debeaked chicken that lived in a 8'x10' with 3500 friends and relatives. 100% true. I don't give people shiat for hunting if they eat it. I just don't support it. Sport hunting? Get bent.

Rather than do any of that though, I'd say we could devote a few F-35's worth of funding to synthetic meats, see where that takes us. But, one step at a time. Fake meat first, then ditch industrial agriculture, then no more hunting.

And there are a fair few issues we should tackle first, they all kind of build on each other.
 
2020-09-27 11:58:47 PM  

NM Volunteer: Natalie Portmanteau: NM Volunteer: EdgeRunner: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.

True, for the Jeffrey Dahmer types.  But what is the difference between getting animals to fight each other, and shooting wild animals and watching them bleed out and die in the forests?   How are dog fighting and cock fighting and bull fighting and bear baiting any different from hunting and sport fishing and feed lots and chicken farms?  Americans seem to vilify one and glorify the other because one is considered an ethnic activity and the other is considered a good white hobby and industry.  When in reality it is all bad.

To start, I oppose hunting for sport. (And for food if you live in a place where you don't have to)

I'd argue that there is still a substantial difference between the mindset required to shoot an animal that was otherwise unaware and the mindset required to ignore the conditions of animals while working in industrial agriculture / willfully torture animals.

I don't mean a moral difference, I mean psychological. Lacking the clarity to realize hunting is a sort of murder doesn't mean you're the type of person that would torture an animal. Hunters shoot for an instant kill (yes, they're just making sure they don't have to walk much, but they're not tryingto be cruel)

You can't raise chickens whose beaks you have to remove to keep them from killing each other and not realize that the animals are suffering.

Is there a difference in mindset?  Shooting a deer in the chest with an arrow, and watc ...


Good, your ass is here too.  Notice a trend?  I'm pretty consistent in my stance of forgiveness, thinking people can change, and that locking up people isn't a solution to every problem.  You on the other hand, don't see a difference between hunting and letting animals kill each other for sport.
 
2020-09-27 11:58:54 PM  

Natalie Portmanteau: Smackledorfer: Natalie Portmanteau: To start, I oppose hunting for sport. (And for food if you live in a place where you don't have to)

Sport aside, I always find the latter odd.

Deer, waterfowl, fish... All live better lives and suffer less to fill my freezer than almost any animal I buy from the store. And because it is local, the practice encourages protecting the environment to some extent too. Talk to a fisherman about farm runoff from pork or mercury from a coal plant.

Sure, at this moment, the bird you blew out of the sky had been free to live his best bird life til then, far more so than the mutant debeaked chicken that lived in a 8'x10' with 3500 friends and relatives. 100% true. I don't give people shiat for hunting if they eat it. I just don't support it. Sport hunting? Get bent.

Rather than do any of that though, I'd say we could devote a few F-35's worth of funding to synthetic meats, see where that takes us. But, one step at a time. Fake meat first, then ditch industrial agriculture, then no more hunting.

And there are a fair few issues we should tackle first, they all kind of build on each other.


I hear ya.
 
2020-09-28 12:02:48 AM  

iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.

Why, do you want Neo Nazis and white supremacists to benefit from acts of charity?

I just believe in this crazy thing called rights and want them upheld for everyone, regardless if I agree with them or not.  I believe people can change for the better.  I know, that's a crazy Idea too, especially here on fark.  I could just go along with the cool kids and deny things to people I don't agree with, but what fun is that?

The important thing is that you support Neo Nazis and white supremacists.

And drug dealers, con men, murderers, rapists, gangs... I'm sure I missed a few scary people you don't like, so feel free to add to the list.

You could have used fewer words and just said Republicans.

That reminds me.  I left off Illinois politicians.

Seems that New York politicians are the most corrupt, these days.


The local ones around here in the little towns bordering Chicago are getting scooped up weekly it seems like.  I kind of had a front row seat for it all and probably should have made some bets as to who was going down next.
 
2020-09-28 12:04:12 AM  

Smackledorfer: Humans who grow up in societies that promote animal fighting don't see it the way you or I do, and to declare them to be fundamentally broken and inferior humans is a mistake. A borderline racist one at that, if we apply his accusation beyond the individual michael vick.


We're only discussing Michael Vick here. Who was born and raised in Virginia, where dogfighting is not promoted and is in fact very illegal and frowned upon. What he did was not considered normal or typical within the culture he was raised, which is why he served time for it.

And again, he didn't just run a dogfighting ring. He tortured and executed (really consider that word, because executed means something different than simply killed) some of the dogs who lost fights. No matter how hard you try to justify it, that's abberant behavior, and it demonstrates the type of cruelty that typically leads to abusing people. You may think a pathological lack of empathy for the suffering of other creatures is just part of the human condition, and you may have a point. But it's the part that leads to all the worst things that humans have done, both to animals and to each other.
 
2020-09-28 12:05:13 AM  

iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: The only thing I support is that once someone served their time, their rights should be restored.  Do you really have a problem with that?

And I could be wrong on this, but Trump's nominee for SCOTUS is in favour of gun rights for felons but against voting rights for felons, is she not?


Kryst. Dunno, but that sounds like SOP for someone meeting their criteria for SCOTUS.
 
2020-09-28 12:07:39 AM  

Jeebus Saves: The local ones around here in the little towns bordering Chicago are getting scooped up weekly it seems like.  I kind of had a front row seat for it all and probably should have made some bets as to who was going down next.


You can't figure out who the most corrupt politician from New York is?
 
2020-09-28 12:11:57 AM  

NM Volunteer: Natalie Portmanteau: NM Volunteer: EdgeRunner: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

Deliberate cruelty to animals is a sign of dangerous and deep-seated psychological issues. For as long as he engaged in it and the extremes he took it to, I highly doubt he's all better now just because he "served his time". Jail time is a punishment, not a cure-all for mental illness.

True, for the Jeffrey Dahmer types.  But what is the difference between getting animals to fight each other, and shooting wild animals and watching them bleed out and die in the forests?   How are dog fighting and cock fighting and bull fighting and bear baiting any different from hunting and sport fishing and feed lots and chicken farms?  Americans seem to vilify one and glorify the other because one is considered an ethnic activity and the other is considered a good white hobby and industry.  When in reality it is all bad.

To start, I oppose hunting for sport. (And for food if you live in a place where you don't have to)

I'd argue that there is still a substantial difference between the mindset required to shoot an animal that was otherwise unaware and the mindset required to ignore the conditions of animals while working in industrial agriculture / willfully torture animals.

I don't mean a moral difference, I mean psychological. Lacking the clarity to realize hunting is a sort of murder doesn't mean you're the type of person that would torture an animal. Hunters shoot for an instant kill (yes, they're just making sure they don't have to walk much, but they're not tryingto be cruel)

You can't raise chickens whose beaks you have to remove to keep them from killing each other and not realize that the animals are suffering.

Is there a difference in mindset?  Shooting a deer in the chest with an arrow, and watching it slowly die while full of fear and pain?  Shoving a fish into a bucket of ice so that it suffocates to death?  Making dogs or cocks kill each other for entertainment?  It all involves using and killing animals.  It is all the same mindset of "I'm the human, these animals are here for my entertainment until it is time for me to kill them".  They treat animals, even their own animals (like the hunters who have their dogs ride in the bed of pickups going down highways, or the ones who abuse and leave their dogs behind), as biomechanical tools and equipment and not as living creatures.


yes. Because again, (and I'm not saying I'm this makes it right) they don't want the animal to suffer.  It's the opposite. Admittedly that's because the fear hormones dumped by said critters system spoils the flavor of the meat. (It's one reason cows are bred to be so utterly docile)
And if they're intending to eat it, they're still operating within the scope of the food chain (albeit with caveats). A person being intellectually wrong about the moral status of animals via ignorance doesn't make them cruel.

Sport hunting, you're indifferent to the suffering, because you only care about the trophy. Sport hunting is cruel.

Animal fighting is sadistic. You're enjoying the suffering (instead of trying to avoid it, even selfishly, or just not caring about it)

So, if I had to put it on a 1-5 scale from least cruel (though morally equivocal) to absolute sadistic monster it would be
Eating meat 1*
Pastoral farming/herding 1-2
Hunting 1.5 - 2
Sport hunting 3.5
Industrial agriculture 4
Animal fighting 5

Obviously the overall morality of eating meat depends on responsible sourcing of products from pastoral farms and such, but we're talking America right now
 
2020-09-28 12:16:17 AM  
I also want to take issue with a dog in a truck bed. Those people still love their dogs, they are just idiots. I still see kids in the back of trucks or on golf carts on the road. Their parents love them, they are just stupid.

Stupidity and morality often share outcomes, but shouldn't be confused for one another.
 
2020-09-28 12:23:36 AM  

Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: iron de havilland: Jeebus Saves: winedrinkingman: Just include a clause that you don't pay the fines of anyone involved in Neo-Nazi or white supremacist groups, and the Republicans won't benefit at all from this activity.

You're so cool.

Why, do you want Neo Nazis and white supremacists to benefit from acts of charity?

I just believe in this crazy thing called rights and want them upheld for everyone, regardless if I agree with them or not.  I believe people can change for the better.  I know, that's a crazy Idea too, especially here on fark.  I could just go along with the cool kids and deny things to people I don't agree with, but what fun is that?

The important thing is that you support Neo Nazis and white supremacists.

And drug dealers, con men, murderers, rapists, gangs... I'm sure I missed a few scary people you don't like, so feel free to add to the list.  The only thing I support is that once someone served their time, their rights should be restored.  Do you really have a problem with that?


Point of order: second amendment rights should be lost for violent bodily crimes. If we can reform our system to where it is rehabilitative, we can revisit.

/or, just dump the second, but, you know... muh gunz!
 
2020-09-28 12:28:04 AM  

Smackledorfer: I also want to take issue with a dog in a truck bed. Those people still love their dogs, they are just idiots. I still see kids in the back of trucks or on golf carts on the road. Their parents love them, they are just stupid.

Stupidity and morality often share outcomes, but shouldn't be confused for one another.


Around these parts, it's illegal to have an unrestrained animal in the back of your truck. It has to be tethered in - for the animal's safety and for the public's.

Or, like me, you can pop a camper shell on top and leave them untethered.

I'd say it's also kinda selfish to have your dogs in the back of your pickup or your kids unrestrained in your car/golf cart or, if you're djt, your caddy clinging to the back of your juiced-up golf cart on the greens. You're saying, "what I want is important. What's right is immaterial."
 
2020-09-28 12:29:12 AM  

2chinz: Smackledorfer: I also want to take issue with a dog in a truck bed. Those people still love their dogs, they are just idiots. I still see kids in the back of trucks or on golf carts on the road. Their parents love them, they are just stupid.

Stupidity and morality often share outcomes, but shouldn't be confused for one another.

Around these parts, it's illegal to have an unrestrained animal in the back of your truck. It has to be tethered in - for the animal's safety and for the public's.

Or, like me, you can pop a camper shell on top and leave them untethered.

I'd say it's also kinda selfish to have your dogs in the back of your pickup or your kids unrestrained in your car/golf cart or, if you're djt, your caddy clinging to the back of your juiced-up golf cart on the greens. You're saying, "what I want is important. What's right is immaterial."


Ime they are simply in denial of the risk. It won't happen to them, in their minds.
 
2020-09-28 12:32:57 AM  

Natalie Portmanteau: yes. Because again, (and I'm not saying I'm this makes it right) they don't want the animal to suffer. It's the opposite. Admittedly that's because the fear hormones dumped by said critters system spoils the flavor of the meat. (It's one reason cows are bred to be so utterly docile)


That's still treating and considering wild animals as tools and commodities, not as living creatures.  A quick kill to avoid fear hormones or unappetizing bruises, and to prevent the animal from escaping.  Why not a headshot?  Why shoot it in the chest, which will not kill it right away?  Or why not just let it live, and buy some meat from the grocery store, or at a farmers market from a local farmer who raises free-range animals with no cages or torture?  Treating animals like they are just items is the predominant mindset, and it doesn't make any bit of difference if it is a poor person dogfighting or cockfighting for cash or a wealthy person shooting a giraffe or an elk for the sake of trophies or unusual meat.
 
2020-09-28 12:33:49 AM  
I believe that there are actual saints walking among us, but there aren't a whole lot of them. I and most people have done some wrongs even big-deal major wrongs. I like to see efforts at restitution. I know that restitution fails in many cases, but I believe in trying multiple times. People with better souls than me believe in forgiveness, and I try to emulate them.
 
2020-09-28 12:34:20 AM  

Smackledorfer: 2chinz: Smackledorfer: I also want to take issue with a dog in a truck bed. Those people still love their dogs, they are just idiots. I still see kids in the back of trucks or on golf carts on the road. Their parents love them, they are just stupid.

Stupidity and morality often share outcomes, but shouldn't be confused for one another.

Around these parts, it's illegal to have an unrestrained animal in the back of your truck. It has to be tethered in - for the animal's safety and for the public's.

Or, like me, you can pop a camper shell on top and leave them untethered.

I'd say it's also kinda selfish to have your dogs in the back of your pickup or your kids unrestrained in your car/golf cart or, if you're djt, your caddy clinging to the back of your juiced-up golf cart on the greens. You're saying, "what I want is important. What's right is immaterial."

Ime they are simply in denial of the risk. It won't happen to them, in their minds.


Just like the people who leave kids in hot cars during the summer, or people who do not lock up guns, or people who think they can drive after a few beers.  It's all about them, not anybody else.
 
2020-09-28 12:41:48 AM  
FTA:

...his elusive ability

That's an ugly description.
 
2020-09-28 12:45:03 AM  
You can donate here. There's still time to help people pay off fines so they can register to vote.

https://connect.clickandpledge.com/Or​g​anization/frcceducationfund/campaign/a​mendment4fund/Donation/
 
2020-09-28 12:46:52 AM  

NM Volunteer: A quick kill to avoid fear hormones or unappetizing bruises, and to prevent the animal from escaping.  Why not a headshot?  Why shoot it in the chest, which will not kill it right away?  Or why not just let it live, and buy some meat from the grocery store, or at a farmers market from a local farmer who raises free-range animals with no cages or torture?


A chest shot is the more humane choice than the headshot, unless you pretend both are equally effective at getting a kill, which is only true when the Fark sharpshooter brigade is talking.

A headshot off by a little is anything but a clean kill. And a deer with a maimed mouth is going to get away and slowly starve to death. The head is the least likely part of the deer to remain still as you shoot.

Ethically raised meat is available but not in sufficient quantities, nor is it cost effective for most. And that raises a second ethical dilemma: if you could skip that ethical meat and feed two people instead of one, which you absolutely can with vegetarian options, the ethical choice is never meat at all.

Aside from your hunting ignorance, your argument quickly boils down to "meat is for rich people, and the poors are immoral for trying to eat as "well" for lack of a better way to put it."  Sure, in a perfect world whatever ethical meat is available would be evenly distributed among rich and poor alike, but you know that'll never, ever, happen. Those who can afford ethical meat will still eat all they want, and everyone else would get none. Surely that isn't your suggested solution?
 
2020-09-28 12:51:07 AM  

NM Volunteer: Smackledorfer: 2chinz: Smackledorfer: I also want to take issue with a dog in a truck bed. Those people still love their dogs, they are just idiots. I still see kids in the back of trucks or on golf carts on the road. Their parents love them, they are just stupid.

Stupidity and morality often share outcomes, but shouldn't be confused for one another.

Around these parts, it's illegal to have an unrestrained animal in the back of your truck. It has to be tethered in - for the animal's safety and for the public's.

Or, like me, you can pop a camper shell on top and leave them untethered.

I'd say it's also kinda selfish to have your dogs in the back of your pickup or your kids unrestrained in your car/golf cart or, if you're djt, your caddy clinging to the back of your juiced-up golf cart on the greens. You're saying, "what I want is important. What's right is immaterial."

Ime they are simply in denial of the risk. It won't happen to them, in their minds.

Just like the people who leave kids in hot cars during the summer, or people who do not lock up guns, or people who think they can drive after a few beers.  It's all about them, not anybody else.


If you insist on pretending the whole of stupidly is at its core merely a lack of ethics, I don't know what to say. A lot of people are stupid and make poor decisions because they don't fully understand the consequences, not because they properly understand them and are pieces of shiat.

Very few drunk drivers honestly believe they are harming others and don't care. Some are alcoholics and that's its own mess. Others really believe they drive fine with a buzz.
 
2020-09-28 12:54:54 AM  

NM Volunteer: Natalie Portmanteau: yes. Because again, (and I'm not saying I'm this makes it right) they don't want the animal to suffer. It's the opposite. Admittedly that's because the fear hormones dumped by said critters system spoils the flavor of the meat. (It's one reason cows are bred to be so utterly docile)

That's still treating and considering wild animals as tools and commodities, not as living creatures.  A quick kill to avoid fear hormones or unappetizing bruises, and to prevent the animal from escaping.  Why not a headshot?  Why shoot it in the chest, which will not kill it right away?  Or why not just let it live, and buy some meat from the grocery store, or at a farmers market from a local farmer who raises free-range animals with no cages or torture?  Treating animals like they are just items is the predominant mindset, and it doesn't make any bit of difference if it is a poor person dogfighting or cockfighting for cash or a wealthy person shooting a giraffe or an elk for the sake of trophies or unusual meat.


I disagree that its that black and white, but not enough to continue arguing that hunting to eat is a lesser evil.
 
2020-09-28 1:02:20 AM  

Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.


I'm an animal lover and can't stand what he did to those poor animals. My current dog is a rescue from a fight op, a 145 lb French Mastiff who's absolutely my best friend. Having said that, what Vick is doing now is noble. It appears he is trying to make up for his past and I applaud that. Unless you are doing more than he is for the cause I suggest you fark off. Again, he's still a dick for what he did in the past but I absolutely believe in redemption. I'm fairly sure my pup would agree.
 
2020-09-28 1:08:11 AM  

Smackledorfer: If you insist on pretending the whole of stupidly is at its core merely a lack of ethics, I don't know what to say. A lot of people are stupid and make poor decisions because they don't fully understand the consequences, not because they properly understand them and are pieces of shiat.


It doesn't make a difference either way, because it all boils down to self-centeredness and selfishness.  There is no ethical difference between [being too stupid to remember how hot the car gets every time he leaves it parked in a parking lot] and [sick of having a kid so he leaves the kid in the car in hopes of plausible deniability].

Or how about this: [spraying a tanker full of PCBs along side of the road because he does not understand the health and environmental hazards and laws] and [spraying a tanker full of PCBs along side of the road because he is lazy and does not care about anybody other than himself].

It is all rooted in [I only care about myself and not about others].  All four scenarios and mindsets and motives are based on that.  That child in the hot car is just a thing to them.  The people who live alongside that road are just things to them.  And with dogfighting and hunting and debeaked chickens, it is all treating animals as commodities to be used and enjoyed, if enjoyment means eating them or abusing them.
 
2020-09-28 1:09:37 AM  

Smackledorfer: A headshot off by a little is anything but a clean kill.


Then maybe the hunter should actually practice, and not drink before/during hunting.  They are freaking deer grazing in the forest, not soldiers hiding behind debris or running through trenches.
 
2020-09-28 1:12:25 AM  

austin_millbarge: I don't care if Vick cures cancer... fark him.


Come on. He totally said he was sorry. What more do you want from the guy?
 
2020-09-28 1:16:05 AM  

Natalie Portmanteau: I disagree that its that black and white, but not enough to continue arguing that hunting to eat is a lesser evil.


I still don't get this.  The majority of hunting kills are more humane than the natural deaths of animals, so the only argument you can really make is that shortening of lifespan against nature is itself unethical.  And you are welcome to make this argument.

But that "goes against nature" argument is every bit as applicable for the most farm-raised and ethically slaughtered animals.  And that concept of ethical slaughter is kind of a pipe-dream in and of itself. Most ways of killing animals on a farm are every bit as nasty as a shot to the heart.  There is no real enforcement of any ethical slaughter laws, and even if there were, the laws themselves are hardly successful at achieving what we might imagine to be an ethical slaughter.  Finally, there is no method by which food is labeled as "extra-ethical" vs "normal ethical" vs "least ethical manner legally possible" vs "totally skirting the laws and getting away with it".  Even in controlled environments there is no shortage of stories of it not going as planned. 

Any attempt to purchase meat that is extra ethical in its slaughter is a crapshoot at best that would rely on trust and a PR campaign, unless you are visiting the farm on the day of slaughter to make sure it met your needs.

I know you put a very huge asterisk next to farm-raised animals as a food source in your list that put it at the bottom, but I think that asterisk is even bigger than you thought it was. Frankly I'd say that the best case scenario of ethical slaughtering is pretty much identical to hunting deaths for animals. And again, the hunting deaths should be compared to likely death conditions in the wild. Deer will get sick, wander around, get hauled to the ground by coyotes, or pass out and get eaten by bugs and other scavengers, or get caught by a predator in the prime of one's life, etc. I fail to see how any of those outcomes could be called preferable to a gunshot (save for theoretical lifespan). Fish and waterfowl get an even worse death in the wild as far as I can tell. The smaller the animal the greater the odds of natural predation.  If you offered to feed me to carnivores or shoot me, I'll take that gunshot, thank you very much.

And, if we place any premiums on nature vs. evil mankind being non-natural, then surely we must view any farm conditions as particularly harsh for the duration of life even if and when it is a very kind and friendly farmer brown setup.

Now, to lifespan: whitetail deer live about 6 years in the wild. Cows live about 20 without disease or predation.  If I kill a 6 year old deer I deprive it of 4 years, or 2/3 of its life.  You slaughter a cow at around 3 years usually, as best I can google up.  That's 17 lost years and 85% of its life.  So maybe we shouldn't focus on lifespan taken away from animals.

I'm not saying you have to immediately give up your prior thoughts and fall in line with mine, but I do think the above are valid things to consider in your rankings.
 
2020-09-28 1:20:45 AM  

NM Volunteer: Smackledorfer: A headshot off by a little is anything but a clean kill.

Then maybe the hunter should actually practice, and not drink before/during hunting.  They are freaking deer grazing in the forest, not soldiers hiding behind debris or running through trenches.


Oh, we have a member of the fark sharpshooter brigade on our hands. That's cute.  If you take offense at this, I intended it. You have no idea what you are talking about and are choosing willful ignorance because it suits your narrative.

NM Volunteer: It doesn't make a difference either way, because it all boils down to self-centeredness and selfishness.


And there is that willful ignorance rearing its head again.

NM Volunteer: There is no ethical difference between [being too stupid to remember how hot the car gets every time he leaves it parked in a parking lot] and [sick of having a kid so he leaves the kid in the car in hopes of plausible deniability].


I'll farkie you as "intent is irrelevant if you cause a death", and I do hope to see you argue manslaughter, murder 1, and murder 2 should all be given identical penalties whenever such a discussion pops up in the future.

Intent matters. For the purposes of ethical discussions, intent and belief of the actors involved is literally the number one thing that determines whether someone is unethical or not.
 
2020-09-28 1:20:52 AM  

MythDragon: austin_millbarge: I don't care if Vick cures cancer... fark him.

Come on. He totally said he was sorry. What more do you want from the guy?


Probably a bj
 
2020-09-28 1:28:18 AM  
All American citizens ages 18 and older should have the right to vote, full stop. If prison towns are going to milk their populations for cash in the census, they should face the consequences of a prison polling place getting 100% turnout every time. They might be the only precincts in the country with an informed electorate when it comes to judicial retention and sheriffs' races.
 
2020-09-28 1:30:54 AM  

NM Volunteer: Natalie Portmanteau: yes. Because again, (and I'm not saying I'm this makes it right) they don't want the animal to suffer. It's the opposite. Admittedly that's because the fear hormones dumped by said critters system spoils the flavor of the meat. (It's one reason cows are bred to be so utterly docile)

That's still treating and considering wild animals as tools and commodities, not as living creatures.  A quick kill to avoid fear hormones or unappetizing bruises, and to prevent the animal from escaping.  Why not a headshot?  Why shoot it in the chest, which will not kill it right away?  Or why not just let it live, and buy some meat from the grocery store, or at a farmers market from a local farmer who raises free-range animals with no cages or torture?  Treating animals like they are just items is the predominant mindset, and it doesn't make any bit of difference if it is a poor person dogfighting or cockfighting for cash or a wealthy person shooting a giraffe or an elk for the sake of trophies or unusual meat.


Why is hunting something as humanely as reasonably possible somehow worse than buying meat from the grocery store? It's not something I'd personally prefer to do (for many reasons), but I don't see how you can justify it as morally inferior. Especially considering how most of the animals that end up in a grocery store lived, it's probably a thousand times crueler to buy meat from a store.
 
2020-09-28 1:33:01 AM  

Smackledorfer: A great many thoughtful words....


Yeah, thats pretty much what I'm saying. I actually said earlier that the most morally defensible position regarding hunting is that you're just taking the place of a predator on the food chain. And I also said its "better" than eating food from industrial agriculture.

I'm simply making the distinction between an immoral act due to ignorance of the moral imperative to treat all life equally, and an immoral act due to malice or  callousness.

I also think that while this is an important issue that merits discussion, at this exact moment in time there are simply issues we ought to address first, to aid in creating a more ethical society which will allow us to put past discussions into actions.

We create a society that values all life not by forcing people to value all life but by educating our future generations that all life has value. Slow process. Im all for it, but we need to fundamentally overhaul the way education works first.
 
2020-09-28 1:36:11 AM  

Ragin' Asian: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

He did his time.

I fully support ex-felons who've done their time and have taken sincere steps toward rehabilitation to regain their right to vote. He may have done the former but he has certainly not done the latter. I completely admit I tolerate cruelty towards dogs less than I do against crimes against people.[Fark user image 425x548]

Cora on the left was two years old when I adopted her. She had just had a litter and was found wandering the streets. This was in Pittsburgh, which is why I have a particular Ire for Vick.


I'm right there with you. Adopted my goodest boy Sirius from the shelter, he was rescued from a fight op as a bait dog. This is how he looked at time of adoption.
Fark user imageView Full Size


Broke my heart because the vet told me I couldn't even give him a full bowl of food as he was so starved. Had to slowly ramp him up to health. He's doing much better now. Loves everyone and anything living, including his cat buddies.
Fark user imageView Full Size

He'll even share his water bowl when a foster kitten climbs into his food dish.
Fark user imageView Full Size

Also hasn't met a human he didn't like, especially kids.
Fark user imageView Full Size

If he can give humans and animals another chance with his background I think Vick deserves a shot at redemption. Fairly sure my pup would agree.
 
2020-09-28 1:40:13 AM  
Smackledorfer:

All I was saying is that I don't feel strongly enough about my belief that hunting IS "better" than dogfighting to defend killing animals, because i think if we focused on things like actual ethics, we wouldn't be killing animals in the first place.

Is that coming across? I know its late, so my bad if its not.

Oh, and, you could say some culls are certainly good, for the animal population of an area long term, it could be considered acceptable. (But that brings us to a sticky quandary involving human populations, given we ought to value all life equally.... and I simply don't have time for that tonight.)
 
2020-09-28 1:41:34 AM  

Natalie Portmanteau: Smackledorfer:

All I was saying is that I don't feel strongly enough about my belief that hunting IS "better" than dogfighting to defend killing animals, because i think if we focused on things like actual ethics, we wouldn't be killing animals in the first place.

Is that coming across? I know its late, so my bad if its not.

Oh, and, you could say some culls are certainly good, for the animal population of an area long term, it could be considered acceptable. (But that brings us to a sticky quandary involving human populations, given we ought to value all life equally.... and I simply don't have time for that tonight.)


It's all good :)
 
2020-09-28 1:48:27 AM  

2chinz: Smackledorfer: I also want to take issue with a dog in a truck bed. Those people still love their dogs, they are just idiots. I still see kids in the back of trucks or on golf carts on the road. Their parents love them, they are just stupid.

Stupidity and morality often share outcomes, but shouldn't be confused for one another.

Around these parts, it's illegal to have an unrestrained animal in the back of your truck. It has to be tethered in - for the animal's safety and for the public's.

Or, like me, you can pop a camper shell on top and leave them untethered.

I'd say it's also kinda selfish to have your dogs in the back of your pickup or your kids unrestrained in your car/golf cart or, if you're djt, your caddy clinging to the back of your juiced-up golf cart on the greens. You're saying, "what I want is important. What's right is immaterial."


Thats a deep seated evolutionary holdover. We get past that by teaching children the framework to establish what's right and wrong given a broader set of rules (sort of a do no harm) with goal of creating a society that wants to do right becauseit's right, and knowing that being just is the best way for everyone to have the best shot at getting what they want.

And we should start immediately. But this will take generations to really work, and that's a hard sell to people who have to deal with current public's opinions on things.
 
2020-09-28 1:49:23 AM  
LOL.

It's interesting.
Vic is no 👼.
But in a world where people are okay with Trump as POTUS, it's funny.
If only people could focus their anger.
Dogs are great. But their not the United States of America. Which is kinda of a big deal.
And at this point Vic would make a better POTUS.
But you all keep up the good fight up and run Vic out of America.
I guess it's a good consolation prize since you're not going to stop Trump from being president for another term.
You're too busy canceling everyone else except him.
 
2020-09-28 1:54:54 AM  

Smackledorfer: Oh, we have a member of the fark sharpshooter brigade on our hands.


Because when hobbies involve killing other living creatures, we should tolerate sloppiness.


Smackledorfer: I'll farkie you as "intent is irrelevant if you cause a death", and I do hope to see you argue manslaughter, murder 1, and murder 2 should all be given identical penalties whenever such a discussion pops up in the future.


Legality and ethics are not the same thing.  Legality says it is okay for cops to shoot unarmed Black people.  Ethics says it is not okay.  Legality divides crimes into degrees and variations.  Ethics has right and wrong.  It is legal for museums to possess looted archaeological items from foreign countries if they were taken before certain years.  Ethics says looting is wrong and those items should be returned.  Do you see the difference?  I am not arguing legal matters.  I am simply pointing out that when everything is distilled down, it distills down to humans being selfish and self-centered, while treating other humans and treating animals as if they are all things and commodities and not living creatures.
 
2020-09-28 2:08:09 AM  

NM Volunteer: Smackledorfer: Oh, we have a member of the fark sharpshooter brigade on our hands.

Because when hobbies involve killing other living creatures, we should tolerate sloppiness.


Smackledorfer: I'll farkie you as "intent is irrelevant if you cause a death", and I do hope to see you argue manslaughter, murder 1, and murder 2 should all be given identical penalties whenever such a discussion pops up in the future.

Legality and ethics are not the same thing.  Legality says it is okay for cops to shoot unarmed Black people.  Ethics says it is not okay.  Legality divides crimes into degrees and variations.  Ethics has right and wrong.  It is legal for museums to possess looted archaeological items from foreign countries if they were taken before certain years.  Ethics says looting is wrong and those items should be returned.  Do you see the difference?  I am not arguing legal matters.  I am simply pointing out that when everything is distilled down, it distills down to humans being selfish and self-centered, while treating other humans and treating animals as if they are all things and commodities and not living creatures.


You don't understand the biology of the things being killed. You don't understand how guns work. You don't understand how shooting anything works.

And you choose not to learn. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and tried to educate you, but you rejected the option to learn.

And I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on your fundamental belief that intent is irrelevant to the ethics of an action. Frankly, imo that makes you a damn fool. I suppose you likely feel the same about me there. I cannot for the life of me how anyone could take your viewpoint, and I don't think I've ever encountered it my life.
 
2020-09-28 2:12:30 AM  
And one more thing: you are elitist as fark here, which I really wouldn't have pegged you as.

Your arguments here are only the 1%ers should eat meat (as I explained earlier) and only the best snipers in the world should hunt.

Moreover, applying your level of perfection you require of hunters to the slaughtering if farmed animals your actual position is zero farmed animals: all slaughter methods involve significant error rates.

/And don't get me started on kosher and halal slaughter methods. I guess you're against that religious freedom too
 
2020-09-28 2:14:06 AM  

Smackledorfer: NM Volunteer: Smackledorfer: Oh, we have a member of the fark sharpshooter brigade on our hands.

Because when hobbies involve killing other living creatures, we should tolerate sloppiness.


Smackledorfer: I'll farkie you as "intent is irrelevant if you cause a death", and I do hope to see you argue manslaughter, murder 1, and murder 2 should all be given identical penalties whenever such a discussion pops up in the future.

Legality and ethics are not the same thing.  Legality says it is okay for cops to shoot unarmed Black people.  Ethics says it is not okay.  Legality divides crimes into degrees and variations.  Ethics has right and wrong.  It is legal for museums to possess looted archaeological items from foreign countries if they were taken before certain years.  Ethics says looting is wrong and those items should be returned.  Do you see the difference?  I am not arguing legal matters.  I am simply pointing out that when everything is distilled down, it distills down to humans being selfish and self-centered, while treating other humans and treating animals as if they are all things and commodities and not living creatures.

You don't understand the biology of the things being killed. You don't understand how guns work. You don't understand how shooting anything works.

And you choose not to learn. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and tried to educate you, but you rejected the option to learn.

And I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on your fundamental belief that intent is irrelevant to the ethics of an action. Frankly, imo that makes you a damn fool. I suppose you likely feel the same about me there. I cannot for the life of me how anyone could take your viewpoint, and I don't think I've ever encountered it my life.


I am an American.  Of course I know how guns work.  Of course I own a few rifles.  I just won't buy into the bullshiat narrative of the noble white hunter.
 
2020-09-28 2:16:33 AM  

Smackledorfer: And one more thing: you are elitist as fark here, which I really wouldn't have pegged you as.

Your arguments here are only the 1%ers should eat meat (as I explained earlier) and only the best snipers in the world should hunt.

Moreover, applying your level of perfection you require of hunters to the slaughtering if farmed animals your actual position is zero farmed animals: all slaughter methods involve significant error rates.

/And don't get me started on kosher and halal slaughter methods. I guess you're against that religious freedom too


You did not even read what I said.  That is the exact opposite of my posts, wherein I argued that there is no ethical difference between sports/hobby hunting and dogfighting.  Both are unethical and bad, because they kill and cause suffering for the pleasure of humans.  And I reject the claims that shooting a deer in the chest and watching it bleed to death is somehow "humane".
 
2020-09-28 2:21:29 AM  

NM Volunteer: I am an American.  Of course I know how guns work.  Of course I own a few rifles.  I just won't buy into the bullshiat narrative of the noble white hunter.


Then I don't know how you are being disingenuous, but you ARE being disingenuous.

Either you are lying about owning and shooting rifles, or you are lying in your claims that headshots would be more ethical than chest shots on deer.  Your claim that you know guns makes me think less of you than when I gave you the benefit of mere ignorance.

I don't care for liars. I don't always agree with you, but I thought you were better than this.
 
2020-09-28 2:25:52 AM  

NM Volunteer: Smackledorfer: And one more thing: you are elitist as fark here, which I really wouldn't have pegged you as.

Your arguments here are only the 1%ers should eat meat (as I explained earlier) and only the best snipers in the world should hunt.

Moreover, applying your level of perfection you require of hunters to the slaughtering if farmed animals your actual position is zero farmed animals: all slaughter methods involve significant error rates.

/And don't get me started on kosher and halal slaughter methods. I guess you're against that religious freedom too

You did not even read what I said.  That is the exact opposite of my posts, wherein I argued that there is no ethical difference between sports/hobby hunting and dogfighting.  Both are unethical and bad, because they kill and cause suffering for the pleasure of humans.  And I reject the claims that shooting a deer in the chest and watching it bleed to death is somehow "humane".


You argued if people can't get perfect headshots on deer they should just buy the magical pixie dreamland version of farmed animals that counts as humane.

I already explained to you that this alternative means only the wealthy could ever eat meat. You replied to that post. I assumed you read it.

I guess you did not. I've gone into great detail forming my arguments here. You've planted your head in the sand like a warner bros ostrich and just spewed whatever verbal diarrhea suits your narrative.

The hilarious part of all this is you could VERY easily just say "I'm a vegetarian and it's wrong to kill animals for food" and I'd agree with you. But I'm guessing you aren't a vegetarian, so your poor logic and double think stem from an inability to accept your own behaviors. That's pathetic.
 
2020-09-28 3:09:37 AM  
I'm a dog person (most of the time), but I honestly think if the Trump administration had instead started caging dogs at the border then there would have been more national outrage.

As an Eagles fan I was pretty uncomfortable with them signing Vick. I can't say I ever got comfortable with it, but I do have to acknowledge how well he's handled things since incarceration.

Incarceration should be both punitive and reformative. Without the latter, the process is garbage.

So while I'll never fully comprehend the heinous things he did, I can recognize my particular upbringing may have shielded me from such things. So I won't shiat on anything positive he's done no matter how genuine I perceive it.
 
2020-09-28 3:23:38 AM  

Natalie Portmanteau: Ragin' Asian: No, Vick. farking go away. This is a noble cause and we don't need your craven animal cruelty taint on it. Die in an alley and get eaten by feral cats.

eh. I have no problem with him trying to do good. I also see pretty much no way i could consider him redeemed until he dies and we can view the balance of his deeds. Until then, he is welcome to keep trying in earnest.


He's been working on the right side of the ledger for a while. Problem is once you have a highly publicized bad deed on your record, you may never clear your name with the American public. Good for him right now. I love dogs - I love people as well.
 
2020-09-28 4:00:32 AM  

powhound: It suddenly got stupid in here. JFC


Fark has *always* been stupid about "justice".
 
2020-09-28 4:02:51 AM  

2chinz: Florida is something else...a lot of those red states are. "Been convicted of a crime? No soup for you!"

Meanwhile, in the whole US it's almost impossible to get a self-sustaining job or housing if you have a record, and you lose your housing benefits if you even shelter someone who's starting over. How does that improve things? How does that break the cycle? Instead, Florida has people living under effing bridges because they fall under those rules or because they're sex offenders & can't live within [X] feet of a [fill in the blank]. How does their having  no fixed address make anyone safer? How does not having healthcare - especially mental health - services make the community any safer or more stable?

On a tear. I've just abandoned twitter due to the absolute geyser of soul-crushing news relating to our descent into a fiefdom run by a tin-pot dictator, now I guess I need to abandon Fark, as well...or at least stop commenting.


Fark was always full of bullshiat comments though...
 
2020-09-28 4:46:56 AM  

My Second Fark Account: powhound: It suddenly got stupid in here. JFC

Fark has *always* been stupid about "justice".


Well surely your name is a joke and you didn't resleeve just to dodge the ignore list you built up..  so how would you know what Fark has always been about?

:)
 
2020-09-28 5:29:35 AM  

Smackledorfer: My Second Fark Account: powhound: It suddenly got stupid in here. JFC

Fark has *always* been stupid about "justice".

Well surely your name is a joke and you didn't resleeve just to dodge the ignore list you built up..  so how would you know what Fark has always been about?

:)


Before reddit my main account was My First Fark Account. For a time Reddit was so good I completely abandoned Fark. Reddit went to shiat and I still wanted to keep up with enough news to not be completely unaware of events. Didn't remember email or password to the account so made another one. What is truly remarkable is that this community seriously does not grow up. All the same jokes from the early 2000s are still fresh today. And, just like before, farkers want to murder all criminals, tattoo an A on their chests, and otherwise feel morally smug.
 
2020-09-28 8:55:28 AM  

Smackledorfer: NM Volunteer: Smackledorfer: And one more thing: you are elitist as fark here, which I really wouldn't have pegged you as.

Your arguments here are only the 1%ers should eat meat (as I explained earlier) and only the best snipers in the world should hunt.

Moreover, applying your level of perfection you require of hunters to the slaughtering if farmed animals your actual position is zero farmed animals: all slaughter methods involve significant error rates.

/And don't get me started on kosher and halal slaughter methods. I guess you're against that religious freedom too

You did not even read what I said.  That is the exact opposite of my posts, wherein I argued that there is no ethical difference between sports/hobby hunting and dogfighting.  Both are unethical and bad, because they kill and cause suffering for the pleasure of humans.  And I reject the claims that shooting a deer in the chest and watching it bleed to death is somehow "humane".

You argued if people can't get perfect headshots on deer they should just buy the magical pixie dreamland version of farmed animals that counts as humane.

I already explained to you that this alternative means only the wealthy could ever eat meat. You replied to that post. I assumed you read it.

I guess you did not. I've gone into great detail forming my arguments here. You've planted your head in the sand like a warner bros ostrich and just spewed whatever verbal diarrhea suits your narrative.

The hilarious part of all this is you could VERY easily just say "I'm a vegetarian and it's wrong to kill animals for food" and I'd agree with you. But I'm guessing you aren't a vegetarian, so your poor logic and double think stem from an inability to accept your own behaviors. That's pathetic.


You are a bizarre little man.

Me: hunting is no better than dogfighting.
You: hunting is noble.
Me: what is noble about watching a dear bleed to death while thrashing on the ground in fear?
You: it's the most humane way to kill deer.
Me: no, shooting anything in the head (like a captive bolt gun at a slaughterhouse or like Budd Dwyer shooting himself) is quicker and more humane.
You: sharpshooter robble robble robble.

You are so hung up on individual words that you simply are not reading what I said.  I literally said at the beginning of the thread that cockfighting was a poor person sport just as hunting is a rich person sport, but society glorifies one and vilifies the other because one is usually done by People of Color and the other is done by rich white men.  But they are both unethical.  And you somehow think that means I support hunting?  Sober up and re-read my posts.
 
2020-09-28 9:06:34 AM  
Hot take:
I don't care what somebody does with their dogs.  Dogs are property.  They are not humans.  They are not *your dogs*.

Do I *like it*.  No.  But it's like the prevailing attitude is that Michael Vick running a dog fighting ring is worse than rape and murder.

In the past I've made comparisons to horse racing and fox hunting.  Dog fighting sits somewhere around there on the morality scale.  A bit worse than horse racing.  Not much though.  And probably a bit higher on the ladder than working animals to death or ... frankly (given the way we treat *those* animals) ... eating meat.

You may now carry on crucifying Michael Vick.
 
2020-09-28 9:13:15 AM  

Ragin' Asian: //Scruples are weird things.


They really aren't.  They just require you to apply them consistently.

"Human man harmed animals, therefore, he should be murdered in the street in an amusingly ironic manner" is a difficult position to justify with scrupulously defined first principles though, so that's probably where you're struggling.
 
2020-09-28 9:27:40 AM  
It's a dog's life, being an unrepentant gambler who gets off watching animals tear each other apart.
 
2020-09-28 9:38:37 AM  
He was promised that dog fighting would be legal if he went against Bloomberg
 
2020-09-28 9:40:28 AM  

Hoopy Frood: All American citizens ages 18 and older should have the right to vote, full stop. If prison towns are going to milk their populations for cash in the census, they should face the consequences of a prison polling place getting 100% turnout every time. They might be the only precincts in the country with an informed electorate when it comes to judicial retention and sheriffs' races.


Oh, and also this.

IMO, if you're subject to a nation's laws, you deserve a say in those laws.  Period.  But that's a bit extreme.  I'd settle for all legal residents as long as we ensure that their right to vote acn't be revoked under any circumstances.

I see no reason that Charles Manson shouldn't vote, for example.  I'm not sure what we are protecting by disenfranchising people who commit crimes in the first place.
 
2020-09-28 11:20:13 AM  
He is a scumbag but he is definitely doing a lot of Very Right Things to make amends even though he MUST know that everyone will still think he is a scumbag no matter what.

And really that is ok, cuz doing a lot of good is in of itself worthy of praise, but it doesn't counteract terrible things one may have done...it isn't a chit system you can trade in good deeds for bad

But again, good for him here.
 
2020-09-28 11:52:27 AM  
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2020-09-28 11:54:11 AM  
Apparently people think Vic was torturing the dogs personally? Remember that when you're ever accused of anything absurd.
 
2020-09-28 12:44:43 PM  

strathmeyer: Apparently people think Vic was torturing the dogs personally? Remember that when you're ever accused of anything absurd.


Apparently people believed Vick when he confessed to having done exactly that.

Reminder: Michael Vick's Dogs Were Shot, Electrocuted, Hanged and Beaten to Death

In addition to plunking down $34,000 to buy the Smithfield, Virginia, property where dozens of dogs were chained to car axles buried in the ground while they fought, sometimes to the death, in front of betting spectators, Vick and his co-defendants admitted to killing at least six (but perhaps as many as eight) dogs who did not display sufficiently aggressive traits during the "testing" process.

Several of those dogs were shot; at least two were were hosed down, then electrocuted. Three dogs were hanged, according to a report by the USDA inspector general, "by placing a nylon cord over a 2 x 4 that was nailed to two trees;" three more dogs were drowned "by putting the dogs' heads in a 5 gallon bucket of water."

Vick, with his partner, Quanis Phillips, killed yet another dog "by slamming it to the ground several times before it died, breaking the dog's back or neck." When another of his dogs was disqualified after jumping out of the ring during a fight, Vick had his associate, Purnell Peace, shoot that dog in the head with a .22 caliber pistol.
 
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