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(Centers for Disease Control)   Hey gang, hoping someone out there has a link to solid data on 2019 vs 2020 monthly/weekly morbidity. I'm in an battle with a guy I need to convince covid is real. This seems like the best way of showing it is. Since everything else is "tainted"   (cdc.gov) divider line
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293 clicks; posted to Discussion » on 24 Sep 2020 at 10:11 PM (16 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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jasonvatch [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 7:08:30 PM  
27 votes:
It's a cult. They cannot be convinced that they are wrong, and the harder you try, the harder they'll fight it. It's a lose-lose situation; just cut your losses and run away.
 
Xcott [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 7:02:42 PM  
12 votes:
Does this help?

It's also worth providing data of past death counts to show just how little they normally change from year to year.  I recently gathered these death totals from an admittedly arbitrary source:

2018: 2,839,205 (25702 from previous year)
2017: 2,813,503 (69255 from previous year)
2016: 2,744,248 (31618 from previous year)
2015: 2,712,630 (86212 from previous year)
2014: 2,626,418 (29425 from previous year)
2013: 2,596,993 (53714 from previous year)
2012: 2,543,279 (27821 from previous year)
2011: 2,515,458 (47023 from previous year)
2010: 2,468,435 (31272 from previous year)
2009: 2,437,163 (-34821 from previous year)
2008: 2,471,984 (48272 from previous year)
2007: 2,423,712 (-2552 from previous year)
2006: 2,426,264 (-21753 from previous year)
2005: 2,448,017 (50402 from previous year)
2004: 2,397,615 (-50673 from previous year)
2003: 2,448,288 (4901 from previous year)
2002: 2,443,387 (26962 from previous year)
2001: 2,416,425 (13074 from previous year)
2000: 2,403,351

Here's the thing, though:  I put these numbers in front of a COVID denier, a guy who insisted that the deaths this year weren't caused by COVID.  I pointed out that

1.  We never see an extra few hundred thousand deaths just by random chance.
2.  This year we are seeing extra deaths in the 6-figure range.
3.  They exactly coincide with the coronavirus outbreak, and peak when the outbreak peaks
4.  There is no other phenomenon that would suddenly kill 200,000 extra people for no reason.

Therefore

z.  This clearly must be caused by something, and the cause is very obviously COVID.

The guy still didn't accept it.  He said it wasn't caused by COVID.  I asked what else could have done it, and he basically said "causes."  I asked if he believes these extra deaths would have happened if there was no coronavirus outbreak, and he just rebooted his brain and started over.  There was no way to convince him.

On the other hand, I think it might have made some inroads with other people reading the thread.
 
Shostie [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 8:33:05 PM  
11 votes:
Have you considered the idea that this dude is just a dumb asshole?
 
Carter Pewterschmidt [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 8:05:10 PM  
10 votes:
Ask him if he thinks pretty much every other country on the planet is in on this conspiracy.  Why would countries like France and the UK cause huge damage to their economies, and huge criticism of the leaders of those countries, to support a US conspiracy? Who does he think is behind this? Why?
 
Rent Party
2020-09-24 10:28:07 PM  
8 votes:
You can not reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into.
 
centrifugal bumblepuppy [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 9:10:01 PM  
7 votes:
Fark user imageView Full Size


https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/co​v​id19/excess_deaths.htm

Select "Excess deaths with and without COVID-19" and click Update Dashboard for this particular chart.

Estimated total number of excess deaths since 2/1/2020: 208,390 - 274,055
 
Destructor [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 7:23:14 PM  
7 votes:

jasonvatch: It's a cult. They cannot be convinced that they are wrong, and the harder you try, the harder they'll fight it. It's a lose-lose situation; just cut your losses and run away.


We have to try. We have to. :-(
 
Arachnophobe [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 9:53:34 PM  
6 votes:
I work with people who are exactly as you described, right down to the 'doctors are paid to write COVID on death certificates!' conspiracy theory. One of these bastards lost his father to the virus, and still thinks it's all blown out of proportion and that it'll all go away suddenly November 4th. AND he's become an anti-masker.

I admire your effort and your optimism, I really do. But you're basically ramming your head into a concrete wall. They will not change. No amount of evidence will change their minds.

Keep trying if you feel you must. But cut your losses before you start doing damage to yourself. Stress is cumulative and we're ALL already carrying high amounts, no sense in adding more.
 
Nidiot [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 8:36:22 PM  
6 votes:
It's the House MD quote of if you could reason with religious people there'd be not religious people, only replace
"religious" with "covid-denier". You could also use Trump-supporter, or Republican. Whatever.

No one is blinder than he who will not see.
 
Destructor [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 7:22:44 PM  
6 votes:

Xcott: Does this help?


Everything helps. Yeah, I'm subby. I know that's bad form (for some reason), but I'm sorta desperate here. I hope you guys can forgive me. I hope someone out there has a link to a well annotated graph of 2019 deaths versus 2020 showing a 200,000+ increase in deaths (also, I wish it weren't necessary...............)

So my problem is I'm trying to make a difference in a world where Trump has really FUD'd up reality. Everyone reading this probably understands the situation.

The easiest way I think I can do it is just with raw math. Here are the number of people who died in July of 2019. Here are the number of people who died in 2020. It doesn't matter WHAT they died of, just that they died. And that's the way we can track the pandemic.

My adversary (so to speak) is blowing it off with stuff like "well, grandma died of cancer, and they're marking it as covid!!!1!" And that there is a massive conspiracy to hide what's really happening because Doctors and/or hosptial/health-care systems are paid to lie on Death Certificates for big Buck$$$. Nevermind that a coverup of that magnitude would be the biggest news sensation since Jesus rose from the grave. But, I need to confirm this. I think by doing this, I might change some minds. I'm naive that way. Hopefully naive. While that's still allowed...............

This should be trivial information to find. And to be honest, my google-fu is fairly strong (I'm at least a red belt). But it has proven to be not good enough to my great consternation.

So anyway, if you've got something bookmarked that could help, please post your link. Thank you in advance. Really. Thank you.
 
hebrides [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 8:24:00 PM  
5 votes:
I don't know if this (or anything) would make a difference if he's that determined to deny reality, but you might also want to mention that it's not just about deaths. There are many, many, many thousands of people who have a "mild" (i.e., not requiring hospitalization) case at first, but go on to develop a whole host of symptoms afterwards with no definite progression or end date. They're called COVID long-haulers.

I'm one of them, and a recent estimate suggests there are upwards of 70,000 of us in the NY metro area alone.

Dr Fauci referred to long-haulers in his testimony before Congress yesterday: https://www.salon.com/2020/09/23/fauc​i​-cdc-senate-testimony-covid19-redfield​-guidance-shift-long-haulers-long-term​-side-effects/

Does he believe ebola is a hoax too? Because here's an article by a doctor who survived ebola and is seeing similar after effects in COVID patients: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health​/​covid-slow-recovery-long-hauler-compli​cations--/2020/09/18/73c2fd20-f45c-11e​a-bc45-e5d48ab44b9f_story.html

Is he a sports guy? If doctors can't sway him, perhaps football or baseball players will:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2​9​03903-houston-dl-sedrick-williams-says​-he-has-heart-complications-from-covid​-19

https://www.si.com/college/indiana/fo​o​tball/indiana-freshman-brady-feeney-se​riously-ill-covid-19

https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/08/01/edu​a​rdo-rodriguez-red-sox-out-for-season-c​ovid-19-heart-issue

I could go on and on, but this one hits close to home. I haven't been able to work since May and recently got let go from a job I gave my heart and soul to for five years. I don't blame my former employer -- they worked with and waited for me as long as they could. I blame the virus your friend doesn't believe in.
 
Cagey B [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 8:06:01 PM  
5 votes:

Destructor: jasonvatch: It's a cult. They cannot be convinced that they are wrong, and the harder you try, the harder they'll fight it. It's a lose-lose situation; just cut your losses and run away.

We have to try. We have to. :-(


Fark Independent gets confronted by the true face of American conservatism and now thinks at the eleventh hour that he can reason with Frankenstein's monster.

I mean, it's not really funny since this is the shiat that's going to kill us all, and you and people like you have enabled it into existence. But it's kind of funny.
 
jasonvatch [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 7:40:33 PM  
5 votes:

Destructor: jasonvatch: It's a cult. They cannot be convinced that they are wrong, and the harder you try, the harder they'll fight it. It's a lose-lose situation; just cut your losses and run away.

We have to try. We have to. :-(


I don't deny that. But this guy thinks he's as smart as the President - and unfortunately, he's right. It's a failure of the educational system in the USA, which has been under attack for decades.

Make me President, and I'll declare that a healthy, educated populace is necessary for our National Defense.
 
Destructor [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 8:36:43 PM  
4 votes:

Shostie: Have you considered the idea that this dude is just a dumb asshole?


Hey listen. I'm a dumber asshole than a lot of people I know. I've made so many mistakes. So many. So many countless tears of regret....... They haunt me constantly... They can never be forgiven...... Never.

But, you know, you've got to do Right as you see the Right.

Right? :-)

Maybe, if I can salvage just one soul... Just one.... It might make a difference.

/And scene!
 
Xcott [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 10:41:00 PM  
3 votes:

bdub77: But mostly, I would suggest you give up. Some people can't be reasoned with. My parents are like that - almost fully entrenched in their belief systems and their worldview.


I disagree.  When you argue with some loon on the Internet, you're arguing for the benefit of a large, unseen audience.  If you clearly expose the loon as a loon, it makes a big difference to persuadable people who might have considered what they had to say.

In addition, I think a comprehensive debunking will still effect people who seem unconvinceable.   You may have someone who refuses to back down, but who still becomes painfully of how stupid they look, and how much work it is to remain a believer in the face of common sense.  People do get over such things, and you may convince that guy in the long term that being a nutcase isn't worth it.
 
Enigmamf [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 10:22:13 PM  
3 votes:
Why would he believe any numbers you present when he already disbelieves everything else that's been published?
 
Uranus [recently expired TotalFark]
2020-09-25 1:29:48 AM  
2 votes:
I have updated my strategy for COVID deniers :

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence and scientific consensus that COVID is a) real, and b) lethal.
I no longer need to prove this
Those claiming differently need to prove otherwise.

"Really? I didn't know that. Show me your studies.." * crickets*

if nothing else, it allows us to move on to more pleasant things...
 
Harlee [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 11:43:46 PM  
2 votes:

Destructor: Shostie: Have you considered the idea that this dude is just a dumb asshole?

Hey listen. I'm a dumber asshole than a lot of people I know. I've made so many mistakes. So many. So many countless tears of regret....... They haunt me constantly... They can never be forgiven...... Never.


I have felt the same way. But understand something: In life there are innumerable paths. And very few of them are well lit and have truthful signposts. Most of them, in fact, are shrouded in fog and lie to us about where they go.

For each choice there are so many paths available. And all of them seem random, due to lack of knowledge and the fact that other humans (through their ignorance, or through laziness, or on purpose) distort your perception of the nature of those paths. And for each choice in your life, only one of those paths is the "right" one. Simply by random chance, most of your choices will be wrong. That, unfortunately, is called "being Human." The human mind is not entirely rational. It is mainly emotional, and always choosing the rational course is difficult.
I tried to say all this in the novel: "The Maze Race is metaphor for the Struggle of Life. The moral hallmark of civilization is commitment to dismantling the world's  death traps and dead ends, so that each Maze Racer in the  Maze of Life may more expeditiously travel their Path." - The martyred Universist Sage Dothallian


All we can each do is muddle forward, and be easy on ourselves. The mistakes can be forgiven, and the nidus for that is truly felt regret, newly discovered understanding, and a commitment to pass along the torch, regardless of how guttered and flickering it may be.

It's hackneyed and (some say) stupid, but Max Ehrmann's Desiderata is, in fact, true. Be easy with yourself. You're human, not a robot. shiat happens.
 
AtomPeepers
2020-09-24 10:59:18 PM  
2 votes:
Perhaps point out that Fox News argues in court that Tucker Carlson isn't news at all.

Federal Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil found:
This "general tenor" of the show should then inform a viewer that he is not "stating actual facts" about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in "exaggeration" and "non-literal commentary." ... . Fox persuasively argues ... that given Mr. Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer "arrive[s] with an appropriate amount of skepticism" about the statements he makes.

So the top-rated program on a news station cannot be reasonably expected to be taken seriously and "reasonable" viewers will be skeptical that his claims are not "actual facts." Perhaps this is a good legal argument to make, but it's a dreadful position to be in as a news organization.

Good luck pushing them out of Trump's field of lies.
 
trerro [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 10:55:06 PM  
2 votes:

Xcott: You could always put the guy on defense.  Dare him to name the last time the US death toll was at least 100,000 more than the previous year.   Give him some of this data and ask him how far back you have to go to see such a thing.  I'm guessing the Civil war.

Then present the extra deaths and say (1) what could have suddenly killed so many extra people in a single year, exactly in synch with the COVID outbreak?  And (2) does anyone seriously believe that without the coronavirus outbreak, all those extra deaths would have just happened as a statistical fluke?


There was one other later death spike that definitely compares, and it was also caused by a pandemic... caused by a particularly nasty flu virus... and made far worse by people refusing to wear masks and avoid everything they're being asked to avoid now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish​_​flu
This not only further proves the point about the current death spike, but has the added bonus that it also dismisses the "oh, it's just a flu" idiots. The 1918 one WAS actually a flu, but an unusually deadly one.
 
Nidiot [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 10:06:11 PM  
2 votes:

Arachnophobe: I work with people who are exactly as you described, right down to the 'doctors are paid to write COVID on death certificates!' conspiracy theory. One of these bastards lost his father to the virus, and still thinks it's all blown out of proportion and that it'll all go away suddenly November 4th. AND he's become an anti-masker.

I admire your effort and your optimism, I really do. But you're basically ramming your head into a concrete wall. They will not change. No amount of evidence will change their minds.

Keep trying if you feel you must. But cut your losses before you start doing damage to yourself. Stress is cumulative and we're ALL already carrying high amounts, no sense in adding more.


Have none of these people noticed that this virus is THROUGHOUT THE REST OF THE WORLD?

I get many of us do hate Trump, but I'd find it more than a little preposterous to think everyone worldwide is in on one giant hoax performance piece for the benefit of American politics. Or is the idea of the existence of the rest of the world also a hoax? An illusion? The world is flat and only has the US on it?
 
Three Crooked Squirrels [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 9:21:26 PM  
2 votes:

Destructor: Xcott: Does this help?

Everything helps. Yeah, I'm subby. I know that's bad form (for some reason), but I'm sorta desperate here. I hope you guys can forgive me. I hope someone out there has a link to a well annotated graph of 2019 deaths versus 2020 showing a 200,000+ increase in deaths (also, I wish it weren't necessary...............)

So my problem is I'm trying to make a difference in a world where Trump has really FUD'd up reality. Everyone reading this probably understands the situation.

The easiest way I think I can do it is just with raw math. Here are the number of people who died in July of 2019. Here are the number of people who died in 2020. It doesn't matter WHAT they died of, just that they died. And that's the way we can track the pandemic.

My adversary (so to speak) is blowing it off with stuff like "well, grandma died of cancer, and they're marking it as covid!!!1!" And that there is a massive conspiracy to hide what's really happening because Doctors and/or hosptial/health-care systems are paid to lie on Death Certificates for big Buck$$$. Nevermind that a coverup of that magnitude would be the biggest news sensation since Jesus rose from the grave. But, I need to confirm this. I think by doing this, I might change some minds. I'm naive that way. Hopefully naive. While that's still allowed...............

This should be trivial information to find. And to be honest, my google-fu is fairly strong (I'm at least a red belt). But it has proven to be not good enough to my great consternation.

So anyway, if you've got something bookmarked that could help, please post your link. Thank you in advance. Really. Thank you.


I'll play your adversary:

You: An extra 200,000 people have died since March 2020. What else could have caused that?

Adversary: The shut down. Depression, suicide, poor nutrition, masks that cause an excess of CO2 in the system. Plus, rioters killing each other and killing police. And how many of those are deaths from fires in the West started by Antifa?  Add all that up, and I bet you get your excess 200,000.

You: I give up.
----

Go ahead and give it a try. But don't go nuts if you feel like you are talking to a brick wall. Some people are too far gone. Wish I had a good cite for you, but I don't.
 
themindiswatching [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 9:08:21 PM  
2 votes:

bdub77: Experience is the best way to convince someone.


I'm going to guess "experience" here is going to be either personally catching it or someone in their close immediate family doing so. And even then, there's a decent chance they won't be a long-hauler or dead, causing them to double down on the stupidity.
 
cretinbob [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 9:06:55 PM  
2 votes:
Piss on their shoes and walk away.
 
Nidiot [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 8:38:13 PM  
2 votes:

Destructor: Shostie: Have you considered the idea that this dude is just a dumb asshole?

Hey listen. I'm a dumber asshole than a lot of people I know. I've made so many mistakes. So many. So many countless tears of regret....... They haunt me constantly... They can never be forgiven...... Never.

But, you know, you've got to do Right as you see the Right.

Right? :-)

Maybe, if I can salvage just one soul... Just one.... It might make a difference.

/And scene!


Well, in that case, good luck.
 
Xcott [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 7:52:54 PM  
2 votes:

Destructor: My adversary (so to speak) is blowing it off with stuff like "well, grandma died of cancer, and they're marking it as covid!!!1!" And that there is a massive conspiracy to hide what's really happening because Doctors and/or hosptial/health-care systems are paid to lie on Death Certificates for big Buck$$$.


You could always put the guy on defense.  Dare him to name the last time the US death toll was at least 100,000 more than the previous year.   Give him some of this data and ask him how far back you have to go to see such a thing.  I'm guessing the Civil war.

Then present the extra deaths and say (1) what could have suddenly killed so many extra people in a single year, exactly in synch with the COVID outbreak?  And (2) does anyone seriously believe that without the coronavirus outbreak, all those extra deaths would have just happened as a statistical fluke?
 
You Die! [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-26 1:46:33 AM  
1 vote:

Ker_Thwap: As a math major with a concentration in statistics... most people just don't understand how to handle raw math, they don't know what it means, they don't know what it doesn't mean.  Then you have to add in the people who don't understand formal logic, just simple stuff like all dogs are animals, but not all animals are dogs.  Then you have to add in the people who don't understand debating fallacies..  The people who don't understand grammar.  The people who are into faith based decisions.

Unless you're planning on funding a few years of Junior College, attend classes with them, and and help them out in their study groups among student peers... you're pretty much just talking to your cat about the latest movie and expecting them to discuss the plot with you.

There's just so much background education needed before you can get to the stuff like statistics.


Don't diss my cat.
 
reveal101
2020-09-25 4:28:09 PM  
1 vote:

Ker_Thwap: As a math major with a concentration in statistics... most people just don't understand how to handle raw math, they don't know what it means, they don't know what it doesn't mean.  Then you have to add in the people who don't understand formal logic, just simple stuff like all dogs are animals, but not all animals are dogs.  Then you have to add in the people who don't understand debating fallacies..  The people who don't understand grammar.  The people who are into faith based decisions.

Unless you're planning on funding a few years of Junior College, attend classes with them, and and help them out in their study groups among student peers... you're pretty much just talking to your cat about the latest movie and expecting them to discuss the plot with you.

There's just so much background education needed before you can get to the stuff like statistics.


As a political science major I couldn't agree more.
 
reveal101
2020-09-25 2:56:59 PM  
1 vote:
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 
Ker_Thwap [TotalFark]
2020-09-25 12:13:02 PM  
1 vote:
As a math major with a concentration in statistics... most people just don't understand how to handle raw math, they don't know what it means, they don't know what it doesn't mean.  Then you have to add in the people who don't understand formal logic, just simple stuff like all dogs are animals, but not all animals are dogs.  Then you have to add in the people who don't understand debating fallacies..  The people who don't understand grammar.  The people who are into faith based decisions.

Unless you're planning on funding a few years of Junior College, attend classes with them, and and help them out in their study groups among student peers... you're pretty much just talking to your cat about the latest movie and expecting them to discuss the plot with you.

There's just so much background education needed before you can get to the stuff like statistics.
 
Xcott [TotalFark]
2020-09-25 10:45:34 AM  
1 vote:

Uranus: I have updated my strategy for COVID deniers :

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence and scientific consensus that COVID is a) real, and b) lethal.
I no longer need to prove this
Those claiming differently need to prove otherwise.

"Really? I didn't know that. Show me your studies.." * crickets*

if nothing else, it allows us to move on to more pleasant things...



That's a good point.  If you go to the crackpot with a mountain of data, you're basically putting the crackpot in a position he doesn't deserve.  He's the one proposing the alternate hypothesis, and he must make the case.

I've noticed this is actually very common crackpot behavior:  they often overestimate their importance and authority, for example demanding that everyone in a web forum answer their questions or address their objections, or believing that their objections must be addressed before everyone can go ahead and accept science as real.

Conversely, it drives them batty when you ignore them, or curtly respond "why do I need to tell you anything?  You're just some guy on the Internet, and science doesn't need your blessing in order to work."

However, as I said before, you're having this conversation with a nut because a bunch of other potential believers are watching, and you can inoculate them against bogus beliefs.   In addition, crackpots do change.  Most of the global warming deniers I argued with 20 years ago seem to have changed their minds.  I think it's because their beliefs were based on some implausible ideas like a worldwide cabal of scientists, and enough people pointed out how ridiculous that was.

Perhaps it will be best to quickly summarize the evidence in favor reality---there is an undeniable spike in deaths this year over previous years, that exactly coincide with the COVID outbreak---so that onlookers are inoculated by the basic argument.   Then tell the crackpot that the onus is on him to show any authoritative evidence to the contrary.
 
Todd300
2020-09-25 5:54:56 AM  
1 vote:
Spend that time ensuring three sane people are enabled to vote.
 
2farknfunny
2020-09-25 1:34:25 AM  
1 vote:
never argue with an idiot.  They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 
Snapper Carr
2020-09-25 12:42:31 AM  
1 vote:

Xcott: Does this help?

It's also worth providing data of past death counts to show just how little they normally change from year to year.  I recently gathered these death totals from an admittedly arbitrary source:

2018: 2,839,205 (25702 from previous year)
2017: 2,813,503 (69255 from previous year)
2016: 2,744,248 (31618 from previous year)
2015: 2,712,630 (86212 from previous year)
2014: 2,626,418 (29425 from previous year)
2013: 2,596,993 (53714 from previous year)
2012: 2,543,279 (27821 from previous year)
2011: 2,515,458 (47023 from previous year)
2010: 2,468,435 (31272 from previous year)
2009: 2,437,163 (-34821 from previous year)
2008: 2,471,984 (48272 from previous year)
2007: 2,423,712 (-2552 from previous year)
2006: 2,426,264 (-21753 from previous year)
2005: 2,448,017 (50402 from previous year)
2004: 2,397,615 (-50673 from previous year)
2003: 2,448,288 (4901 from previous year)
2002: 2,443,387 (26962 from previous year)
2001: 2,416,425 (13074 from previous year)
2000: 2,403,351

Here's the thing, though:  I put these numbers in front of a COVID denier, a guy who insisted that the deaths this year weren't caused by COVID.  I pointed out that

1.  We never see an extra few hundred thousand deaths just by random chance.
2.  This year we are seeing extra deaths in the 6-figure range.
3.  They exactly coincide with the coronavirus outbreak, and peak when the outbreak peaks
4.  There is no other phenomenon that would suddenly kill 200,000 extra people for no reason.

Therefore

z.  This clearly must be caused by something, and the cause is very obviously COVID.

The guy still didn't accept it.  He said it wasn't caused by COVID.  I asked what else could have done it, and he basically said "causes."  I asked if he believes these extra deaths would have happened if there was no coronavirus outbreak, and he just rebooted his brain and started over.  There was no way to convince him.

On the other hand, I think it might have made some inroads with other people readi ...



You're never going to convince him.  He'll play pigeon chess until you give up.  Just walk away.
 
You Die! [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-25 12:38:07 AM  
1 vote:
Why waste your time? Data won't change their mind.
 
AtomPeepers
2020-09-24 10:32:03 PM  
1 vote:

Three Crooked Squirrels: Destructor: Xcott: Does this help?

Everything helps. Yeah, I'm subby. I know that's bad form (for some reason), but I'm sorta desperate here. I hope you guys can forgive me. I hope someone out there has a link to a well annotated graph of 2019 deaths versus 2020 showing a 200,000+ increase in deaths (also, I wish it weren't necessary...............)

So my problem is I'm trying to make a difference in a world where Trump has really FUD'd up reality. Everyone reading this probably understands the situation.

The easiest way I think I can do it is just with raw math. Here are the number of people who died in July of 2019. Here are the number of people who died in 2020. It doesn't matter WHAT they died of, just that they died. And that's the way we can track the pandemic.

My adversary (so to speak) is blowing it off with stuff like "well, grandma died of cancer, and they're marking it as covid!!!1!" And that there is a massive conspiracy to hide what's really happening because Doctors and/or hosptial/health-care systems are paid to lie on Death Certificates for big Buck$$$. Nevermind that a coverup of that magnitude would be the biggest news sensation since Jesus rose from the grave. But, I need to confirm this. I think by doing this, I might change some minds. I'm naive that way. Hopefully naive. While that's still allowed...............

This should be trivial information to find. And to be honest, my google-fu is fairly strong (I'm at least a red belt). But it has proven to be not good enough to my great consternation.

So anyway, if you've got something bookmarked that could help, please post your link. Thank you in advance. Really. Thank you.

I'll play your adversary:

You: An extra 200,000 people have died since March 2020. What else could have caused that?

Adversary: The shut down. Depression, suicide, poor nutrition, masks that cause an excess of CO2 in the system. Plus, rioters killing each other and killing police. And how many of those are deaths from fi ...


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Maybe you can adapt this to help. The ones who deny the existence of the virus piss me off the most.
 
themindiswatching [TotalFark] [OhFark]
2020-09-24 10:16:17 PM  
1 vote:

Nidiot: Arachnophobe: I work with people who are exactly as you described, right down to the 'doctors are paid to write COVID on death certificates!' conspiracy theory. One of these bastards lost his father to the virus, and still thinks it's all blown out of proportion and that it'll all go away suddenly November 4th. AND he's become an anti-masker.

I admire your effort and your optimism, I really do. But you're basically ramming your head into a concrete wall. They will not change. No amount of evidence will change their minds.

Keep trying if you feel you must. But cut your losses before you start doing damage to yourself. Stress is cumulative and we're ALL already carrying high amounts, no sense in adding more.

Have none of these people noticed that this virus is THROUGHOUT THE REST OF THE WORLD?

I get many of us do hate Trump, but I'd find it more than a little preposterous to think everyone worldwide is in on one giant hoax performance piece for the benefit of American politics. Or is the idea of the existence of the rest of the world also a hoax? An illusion? The world is flat and only has the US on it?


Oh they have, but many of the more douchebag anti-COVID people fall back on pretty racist sh*t to explain away why e.g. South Korea is doing much better.
 
hebrides [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 9:49:36 PM  
1 vote:

cryinoutloud: hebrides: I could go on and on, but this one hits close to home. I haven't been able to work since May and recently got let go from a job I gave my heart and soul to for five years. I don't blame my former employer -- they worked with and waited for me as long as they could. I blame the virus your friend doesn't believe in.

I'm so sorry. I think I have some leftover symptoms myself. Yeah, I tell everybody that I had it, it was pretty bad, and it is quite real. Then they say, well, my friend got sick, but his wife didn't, so how bad can it be? And they'll keep saying that it's no big deal even if someone they know gets pretty sick. Because cult.


Thanks, and sorry to hear that you are dealing with after effects too. There are far too many out there, including far too many doctors, who dismiss long-haul COVID because it doesn't sync up with what the original (6-7 months ago) literature said "should" be the usual progression. Doctors are playing catch up now, and I'm very fortunate to have finally gotten connected with a few who understand. Feel free to message me if you have questions about other resources; we've all had to become our own experts. Hang in there. And yes, cult.
 
cryinoutloud [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 9:36:46 PM  
1 vote:

hebrides: I could go on and on, but this one hits close to home. I haven't been able to work since May and recently got let go from a job I gave my heart and soul to for five years. I don't blame my former employer -- they worked with and waited for me as long as they could. I blame the virus your friend doesn't believe in.


I'm so sorry. I think I have some leftover symptoms myself. Yeah, I tell everybody that I had it, it was pretty bad, and it is quite real. Then they say, well, my friend got sick, but his wife didn't, so how bad can it be? And they'll keep saying that it's no big deal even if someone they know gets pretty sick. Because cult.
 
scottydoesntknow [TotalFark]
2020-09-24 7:26:16 PM  
1 vote:

Destructor: Xcott: Does this help?

Everything helps. Yeah, I'm subby. I know that's bad form (for some reason), but I'm sorta desperate here. I hope you guys can forgive me. I hope someone out there has a link to a well annotated graph of 2019 deaths versus 2020 showing a 200,000+ increase in deaths (also, I wish it weren't necessary...............)

So my problem is I'm trying to make a difference in a world where Trump has really FUD'd up reality. Everyone reading this probably understands the situation.

The easiest way I think I can do it is just with raw math. Here are the number of people who died in July of 2019. Here are the number of people who died in 2020. It doesn't matter WHAT they died of, just that they died. And that's the way we can track the pandemic.

My adversary (so to speak) is blowing it off with stuff like "well, grandma died of cancer, and they're marking it as covid!!!1!" And that there is a massive conspiracy to hide what's really happening because Doctors and/or hosptial/health-care systems are paid to lie on Death Certificates for big Buck$$$. Nevermind that a coverup of that magnitude would be the biggest news sensation since Jesus rose from the grave. But, I need to confirm this. I think by doing this, I might change some minds. I'm naive that way. Hopefully naive. While that's still allowed...............

This should be trivial information to find. And to be honest, my google-fu is fairly strong (I'm at least a red belt). But it has proven to be not good enough to my great consternation.

So anyway, if you've got something bookmarked that could help, please post your link. Thank you in advance. Really. Thank you.


Got this thread favorited and appreciate the sub!
 
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