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(CNBC)   VW's new ID.4 crossover will compete with the Tesla model Y, except it will have 100 years of experience in manufacturing, actual dealers, full service networks, and will be built at five factories around the world   (cnbc.com) divider line
    More: Cool, Automobile, Volkswagen Group, Electric vehicle, Audi, breathtaking global car, Automotive industry, Porsche, Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles  
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1317 clicks; posted to Fandom » and Business » on 23 Sep 2020 at 2:00 PM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-09-23 1:11:06 PM  
Of course, this being Volkswagen, it will somehow not actually be -- you know -- electric.
 
2020-09-23 1:32:57 PM  

sirrerun: Of course, this being Volkswagen, it will somehow not actually be -- you know -- electric.


Rebadged TDI?

We owned a dieselgate Jetta TDI wagon - 5-spd, of course. (It was the funnest car to drive ever.) We were very soured on VW after that fiasco, but would seriously consider buying this car, if we were in the market to replace our current daily driver.

/wanna hear about my EcoDiesel RAM pickup?
//yes, we drank the "clean" diesel Kool-Aid.
\\\three
 
2020-09-23 2:06:54 PM  
These articles miss the point. Why do journalists in 2020 think that electric cars have to compete with other electric cars? If anything Tesla has shown that an electric car (not one built for compliance reasons) can have broad appeal - to more than just green energy types.
 
2020-09-23 2:08:05 PM  
You forgot to mention "some decent styling"
 
2020-09-23 2:09:39 PM  
100 years of manufacturing experience?  Really, subby?   VW was founded in 1937.   I think the maths wasn't your strong smoot.
 
2020-09-23 2:11:32 PM  

sirrerun: Of course, this being Volkswagen, it will somehow not actually be -- you know -- electric.


Or a SUV.  Or be available for sale.  But they are certain that you will buy whatever it is that they want to make.
 
2020-09-23 2:12:34 PM  
Maybe Tesla will have more kinks worked out by then.
 
2020-09-23 2:13:41 PM  
Boring and practical, and if incentives stick around a reasonable price.

I might have to check these out when production actually starts, seems to be right up my alley.
 
2020-09-23 2:16:20 PM  
If they build a 2 door vehicle with at least a 300 mile range, I'm in.
 
2020-09-23 2:17:33 PM  
It looks like a Kia. And not in a good way.
 
2020-09-23 2:18:04 PM  

zobear: sirrerun: Of course, this being Volkswagen, it will somehow not actually be -- you know -- electric.

Rebadged TDI?

We owned a dieselgate Jetta TDI wagon - 5-spd, of course. (It was the funnest car to drive ever.) We were very soured on VW after that fiasco, but would seriously consider buying this car, if we were in the market to replace our current daily driver.

/wanna hear about my EcoDiesel RAM pickup?
//yes, we drank the "clean" diesel Kool-Aid.
\\\three


Eh?  Burning less fuel overall tends to make diesels less bad.  I was quite grumpy when Bill Clinton kicked the "low sulfer diesel" can down the road (presumably for Green Al Gore to the political price and get credit for it).  Dubya simply canned it, keeping our huge SUV boom not using modern truck engines.

If you really want clean diesel, a 60/40 mix of diesel/e-85 does wonders.  Although it requires old fashioned e-85 injectors with specially designed direct injectors for the diesel.  And drivers willing to put up with two separate fuels.  So I'd expect them to sell as well as the brown manual station wagons the jalopnik crew wants.

But yes, diesels are going to be worse for smog and cities.  But probably better for the Earth overall.
 
2020-09-23 2:19:00 PM  
I'm really interested in this. 250 mile range is a little short, but story of my life. 300 miles would be a lot better.
 
2020-09-23 2:20:21 PM  
It's really hard to understand the Tesla hate in the headline, and it's really counterproductive, because it drives home the point that Tesla almost single-handedly built the EV market.
 
2020-09-23 2:21:07 PM  
I don't think you can fit enough high failure rate dealer exclusive parts into an electric vehicle for it to qualify for the VW nameplate.
 
2020-09-23 2:21:57 PM  
So you're not saying it's hostile aliens?

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-23 2:25:14 PM  
So my TDI just has to last another two years before I can get an AWD ID4. I think it should be able to manage it.
 
2020-09-23 2:26:27 PM  

yet_another_wumpus: zobear: sirrerun: Of course, this being Volkswagen, it will somehow not actually be -- you know -- electric.

Rebadged TDI?

We owned a dieselgate Jetta TDI wagon - 5-spd, of course. (It was the funnest car to drive ever.) We were very soured on VW after that fiasco, but would seriously consider buying this car, if we were in the market to replace our current daily driver.

/wanna hear about my EcoDiesel RAM pickup?
//yes, we drank the "clean" diesel Kool-Aid.
\\\three

Eh?  Burning less fuel overall tends to make diesels less bad.  I was quite grumpy when Bill Clinton kicked the "low sulfer diesel" can down the road (presumably for Green Al Gore to the political price and get credit for it).  Dubya simply canned it, keeping our huge SUV boom not using modern truck engines.

If you really want clean diesel, a 60/40 mix of diesel/e-85 does wonders.  Although it requires old fashioned e-85 injectors with specially designed direct injectors for the diesel.  And drivers willing to put up with two separate fuels.  So I'd expect them to sell as well as the brown manual station wagons the jalopnik crew wants.

But yes, diesels are going to be worse for smog and cities.  But probably better for the Earth overall.


W implemented ultra low sulfur diesel in 2006.
 
2020-09-23 2:26:45 PM  
They want this to compete against the Model 3?

Yeah, the VW ID.4 will have 201 hp / 225 pound-feet of torque.

The Model 3 has 450 hp and 470 pound-feet of torque.

Good luck with that VW
 
2020-09-23 2:32:46 PM  
VW dependent on wiring?


Hard pass.
 
2020-09-23 2:33:11 PM  

FLMountainMan: It's really hard to understand the Tesla hate in the headline, and it's really counterproductive, because it drives home the point that Tesla almost single-handedly built the EV market.


Remember when troll headlines wouldn't get a greenlight?
 
2020-09-23 2:33:33 PM  

FLMountainMan: It's really hard to understand the Tesla hate in the headline, and it's really counterproductive, because it drives home the point that Tesla almost single-handedly built the EV market.


They're actively anti-union, put out low-quality vehicles, refuse to cooperate with international charging standards, illegally forced people back to work during Covid, and use their charging network as leverage to push other electric car companies out of business, consistently lie to customers and investors and regulators, and their "full self driving" is a complete disaster.
 
2020-09-23 2:36:24 PM  

meanmutton: FLMountainMan: It's really hard to understand the Tesla hate in the headline, and it's really counterproductive, because it drives home the point that Tesla almost single-handedly built the EV market.

They're actively anti-union, put out low-quality vehicles, refuse to cooperate with international charging standards, illegally forced people back to work during Covid, and use their charging network as leverage to push other electric car companies out of business, consistently lie to customers and investors and regulators, and their "full self driving" is a complete disaster.


Oh, so they're a car company.  Got it.
 
2020-09-23 2:48:04 PM  
Boasting about dealerships? I guess subby has never actually purchased a car.

It also seems like they're stuck at a wall if the price is still $35k. A sub-$30k car that gets 250+ miles would be a game changer.
 
2020-09-23 2:50:47 PM  
Stylish, in a North Africa campaign kinda way.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-23 2:53:36 PM  

madgonad: They want this to compete against the Model 3?

Yeah, the VW ID.4 will have 201 hp / 225 pound-feet of torque.

The Model 3 has 450 hp and 470 pound-feet of torque.

Good luck with that VW


It's a fat crossover - it will be competing against the Model Y.

The performance does indeed suck (8.2s 0-60?  In 2020?) but the panel-fit will likely be better and the paint won't be peeling within weeks.

Tesla needs to fix their body shop and general build quality issues.  Wife and I went looking for a full-sized luxury SUV a few months ago and the horror stories about the Model X just made it a giant nope (we ended up custom ordering a Cayenne, arriving soon)
 
2020-09-23 2:55:13 PM  

madgonad: They want this to compete against the Model 3?
Yeah, the VW ID.4 will have 201 hp / 225 pound-feet of torque.
The Model 3 has 450 hp and 470 pound-feet of torque.
Good luck with that VW


ID.4 RWD starts at $40K, Model Y AWD $50K. Yep, it's going to be slower, and tow less. VW doesn't charge extra if you want an exterior color other than white, you get a speedometer in the usual location as most other cars, a fully functional wiper stalk, presumably better manufacturing than this.

Fark user imageView Full Size


You can get a Model 3 from new inventory now starting $38K. My brother has had a Model 3 for a little under 18 months. Goes fast, handles great, cramped rear seat, small trunk, and the single center dash display occasionally blanks out, which can be unnerving at 75mph. No beta testing for me, thanks.
 
2020-09-23 2:57:59 PM  
Wake me up when you're talking about Honda or Toyota
 
2020-09-23 2:59:57 PM  

Fissile: 100 years of manufacturing experience?  Really, subby?   VW was founded in 1937.   I think the maths wasn't your strong smoot.


Bugatti 1909, Auto Union (Audi) 1932, etc. Plus some rounding both up and down.
 
2020-09-23 3:01:22 PM  

thornhill: Boasting about dealerships? I guess subby has never actually purchased a car.

It also seems like they're stuck at a wall if the price is still $35k. A sub-$30k car that gets 250+ miles would be a game changer.


If the option is "Some guy in a limited-service van drives 100+ miles to my house in the hopes he can fix my Tesla," then yes -- dealerships are a plus.

They just need to fix the sales process. But they won't.
 
2020-09-23 3:02:25 PM  
Call me when VW has a nationwide charging network.
 
2020-09-23 3:07:28 PM  

Rambino: Call me when VW has a nationwide charging network.


https://www.electrifyamerica.com/loca​t​e-charger/

????
 
2020-09-23 3:09:35 PM  
I so so wish the ID.3 was coming to North America, but noooooo - y'all had to go ruin that.
 
2020-09-23 3:25:54 PM  

SlamPuff: Rambino: Call me when VW has a nationwide charging network.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locat​e-charger/

????


That app shows only one charger in the entire state of Minnesota? Yeah, then I'm going to need better range than 250 miles.
 
2020-09-23 3:27:44 PM  
And to go for the throat, VW will partner with Nintendo to have Mariokart playable in the dash.
 
2020-09-23 3:36:27 PM  

SlamPuff: I so so wish the ID.3 was coming to North America, but noooooo - y'all had to go ruin that.


Subcompacts in general have been getting hammered...RIP, Honda Fit.

But to be fair, if we can get bigger and heavier vehicles converted to EV, the ecological payoff is much greater AND those types of cars benefit from the extra torque more than small ones.
 
2020-09-23 3:40:28 PM  

Tangenital: These articles miss the point. Why do journalists in 2020 think that electric cars have to compete with other electric cars? If anything Tesla has shown that an electric car (not one built for compliance reasons) can have broad appeal - to more than just green energy types.


Here, I RTA for you:

Unlike many automakers releasing vehicles to compete against Tesla - the industry's electric vehicle leader - VW is targeting the car at mainstream consumers who may be new to electric vehicles.

VW, which opened online reservations for the ID.4 on Wednesday, compared the compact SUV to the Toyota RAV4 and Honda CRV rather than current electric vehicles from Tesla, General Motors and others.
 
2020-09-23 3:43:07 PM  
Lame headline. Lose a lot of money trying to short Tesla stock, subby?
 
2020-09-23 3:43:36 PM  

Tangenital: These articles miss the point. Why do journalists in 2020 think that electric cars have to compete with other electric cars? If anything Tesla has shown that an electric car (not one built for compliance reasons) can have broad appeal - to more than just green energy types.


The main reason I want an electric car (or a plug in hybrid) is the instant torque right to the wheels.

This interests me because it looks pretty normal and VW didn't do anything too farked up with the interior. Plus Electrify America is putting in charging stations at my local Target so I could charge it up while I'm shopping.

The other vehicle I'm looking at is the RAV4 Prime, which isn't full electric but it does have Toyota quality and a gas motor as a backup if I'm taking long trips. From the reviews, it seems like it is a lot of fun to drive.
 
2020-09-23 3:47:52 PM  

madgonad: They want this to compete against the Model 3?

Yeah, the VW ID.4 will have 201 hp / 225 pound-feet of torque.

The Model 3 has 450 hp and 470 pound-feet of torque.

Good luck with that VW


This is more of a competitor to the Model Y, and you get more HP and torque if you upgrade to the AWD mode which will be available next year:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-23 3:59:42 PM  

yet_another_wumpus: zobear: sirrerun: Of course, this being Volkswagen, it will somehow not actually be -- you know -- electric.

Rebadged TDI?

We owned a dieselgate Jetta TDI wagon - 5-spd, of course. (It was the funnest car to drive ever.) We were very soured on VW after that fiasco, but would seriously consider buying this car, if we were in the market to replace our current daily driver.

/wanna hear about my EcoDiesel RAM pickup?
//yes, we drank the "clean" diesel Kool-Aid.
\\\three

Eh?  Burning less fuel overall tends to make diesels less bad.  I was quite grumpy when Bill Clinton kicked the "low sulfer diesel" can down the road (presumably for Green Al Gore to the political price and get credit for it).  Dubya simply canned it, keeping our huge SUV boom not using modern truck engines.

If you really want clean diesel, a 60/40 mix of diesel/e-85 does wonders.  Although it requires old fashioned e-85 injectors with specially designed direct injectors for the diesel.  And drivers willing to put up with two separate fuels.  So I'd expect them to sell as well as the brown manual station wagons the jalopnik crew wants.

But yes, diesels are going to be worse for smog and cities.  But probably better for the Earth overall.


Where does the cobalt come for those batteries come from again?


Oh right, child slave mines
 
2020-09-23 4:09:12 PM  
Knowing VW they will probably use aluminum wiring with anti corrosion paste that lasts 3000 miles past the warranty and then you'll have to replace the wiring harness that's welded into the frame along with adding systems that are 'better' but need frequent dealer maintenance to keep the dealer networks happy.

Sir, you have to replace the battery coolant and power steering fluid every 15,000 miles for $500 or the batteries will corrode and your steering wheel will fall off.
 
2020-09-23 4:17:49 PM  
I wonder how much development cost VW allocated to figuring out a way to ensure an electric vehicle with no internal combustion engine still has a persistently lit check engine light on the dash?
 
2020-09-23 4:18:06 PM  

KarmicDisaster: SlamPuff: Rambino: Call me when VW has a nationwide charging network.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locat​e-charger/

????

That app shows only one charger in the entire state of Minnesota? Yeah, then I'm going to need better range than 250 miles


That's the wrong website to use. Try plugshare.com, and toggle the plug type button to filter down to just Tesla Supercharger and then just CCS/SAE. There are now more CCS/SAE charging locations than Tesla locations. (CCS/SAE is what Chevy/Ford/VW and most others in the US market will use.) The difference being that Tesla will have 8 chargers at each one and the others might have only 2-4. Plus the CCS/SAE chargers have spottier reliability and varying payment systems. But hey, that's competition at work.
 
2020-09-23 4:24:56 PM  

lifeslammer: yet_another_wumpus: zobear: sirrerun: Of course, this being Volkswagen, it will somehow not actually be -- you know -- electric.

Rebadged TDI?

We owned a dieselgate Jetta TDI wagon - 5-spd, of course. (It was the funnest car to drive ever.) We were very soured on VW after that fiasco, but would seriously consider buying this car, if we were in the market to replace our current daily driver.

/wanna hear about my EcoDiesel RAM pickup?
//yes, we drank the "clean" diesel Kool-Aid.
\\\three

Eh?  Burning less fuel overall tends to make diesels less bad.  I was quite grumpy when Bill Clinton kicked the "low sulfer diesel" can down the road (presumably for Green Al Gore to the political price and get credit for it).  Dubya simply canned it, keeping our huge SUV boom not using modern truck engines.

If you really want clean diesel, a 60/40 mix of diesel/e-85 does wonders.  Although it requires old fashioned e-85 injectors with specially designed direct injectors for the diesel.  And drivers willing to put up with two separate fuels.  So I'd expect them to sell as well as the brown manual station wagons the jalopnik crew wants.

But yes, diesels are going to be worse for smog and cities.  But probably better for the Earth overall.

Where does the cobalt come for those batteries come from again?


Oh right, child slave mines


https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/21​4​51670/tesla-cobalt-free-cathodes-minin​g-battery-nickel-ev-cost
 
2020-09-23 4:25:46 PM  

Mad_Radhu: madgonad: They want this to compete against the Model 3?

Yeah, the VW ID.4 will have 201 hp / 225 pound-feet of torque.

The Model 3 has 450 hp and 470 pound-feet of torque.

Good luck with that VW

This is more of a competitor to the Model Y, and you get more HP and torque if you upgrade to the AWD mode which will be available next year:

[Fark user image 425x478]


The AWD version isn't at launch and it certainly isn't at that price point.
 
2020-09-23 4:33:17 PM  

madgonad: Mad_Radhu: madgonad: They want this to compete against the Model 3?

Yeah, the VW ID.4 will have 201 hp / 225 pound-feet of torque.

The Model 3 has 450 hp and 470 pound-feet of torque.

Good luck with that VW

This is more of a competitor to the Model Y, and you get more HP and torque if you upgrade to the AWD mode which will be available next year:

[Fark user image 425x478]

The AWD version isn't at launch and it certainly isn't at that price point.


But it will have an instrument cluster display and a wipers that don't require a touchscreen to operate, so the VW is still tempting. I just want a mostly normal vehicle interior and the normal buttons and switches for key things.

Plus the ID.4 likely won't have weird shiat like this:

Fark user imageView Full Size


https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/t​e​sla-model-y-owners-find-cooling-system​-cobbled-together-with-home-depot-grad​e-fake-wood

I don't hate Tesla, I like how they are pushing the electric vehicle tech forward, but there's enough worrying stuff that comes out about the quality of their vehicles that it gives me pause or I'm going to spend around $50K for a new vehicle.
 
2020-09-23 4:37:43 PM  
On that note, I see a ton of Teslas around where I live in the Seattle area, and I have to wonder how the breakdown is between people who buy and people who lease. I'm betting that with a lot of questions with long-term reliability a LOT of people are leasing so that it is under warranty the whole time they have it.
 
2020-09-23 4:39:30 PM  

Mad_Radhu: madgonad: Mad_Radhu: madgonad: They want this to compete against the Model 3?

Yeah, the VW ID.4 will have 201 hp / 225 pound-feet of torque.

The Model 3 has 450 hp and 470 pound-feet of torque.

Good luck with that VW

This is more of a competitor to the Model Y, and you get more HP and torque if you upgrade to the AWD mode which will be available next year:

[Fark user image 425x478]

The AWD version isn't at launch and it certainly isn't at that price point.

But it will have an instrument cluster display and a wipers that don't require a touchscreen to operate, so the VW is still tempting. I just want a mostly normal vehicle interior and the normal buttons and switches for key things.

Plus the ID.4 likely won't have weird shiat like this:

[Fark user image 425x349]

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/te​sla-model-y-owners-find-cooling-system​-cobbled-together-with-home-depot-grad​e-fake-wood

I don't hate Tesla, I like how they are pushing the electric vehicle tech forward, but there's enough worrying stuff that comes out about the quality of their vehicles that it gives me pause or I'm going to spend around $50K for a new vehicle.


First, shiat like that is how you fix an issue without bothing to shut down and retool a line.

Second, VW emissions fraud. So don't believe any of their numbers.
 
2020-09-23 4:43:56 PM  

madgonad: They want this to compete against the Model 3?

Yeah, the VW ID.4 will have 201 hp / 225 pound-feet of torque.

The Model 3 has 450 hp and 470 pound-feet of torque.

Good luck with that VW


In Germany, the e-Golf (yes, the e-Golf) has sold more units than the Model 3 this year, despite being "old tech" with 134 bhp and less than 150 miles of range, and despite everyone knowing it was on its way out once ID.3 showed up.

But it's well built, relatively cheap, and has a great service network. Most people don't really buy cars based on 0-60 times.
 
2020-09-23 4:52:12 PM  

madgonad: Mad_Radhu: madgonad: Mad_Radhu: madgonad: They want this to compete against the Model 3?

Yeah, the VW ID.4 will have 201 hp / 225 pound-feet of torque.

The Model 3 has 450 hp and 470 pound-feet of torque.

Good luck with that VW

This is more of a competitor to the Model Y, and you get more HP and torque if you upgrade to the AWD mode which will be available next year:

[Fark user image 425x478]

The AWD version isn't at launch and it certainly isn't at that price point.

But it will have an instrument cluster display and a wipers that don't require a touchscreen to operate, so the VW is still tempting. I just want a mostly normal vehicle interior and the normal buttons and switches for key things.

Plus the ID.4 likely won't have weird shiat like this:

[Fark user image 425x349]

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/36274/te​sla-model-y-owners-find-cooling-system​-cobbled-together-with-home-depot-grad​e-fake-wood

I don't hate Tesla, I like how they are pushing the electric vehicle tech forward, but there's enough worrying stuff that comes out about the quality of their vehicles that it gives me pause or I'm going to spend around $50K for a new vehicle.

First, shiat like that is how you fix an issue without bothing to shut down and retool a line.

Second, VW emissions fraud. So don't believe any of their numbers.


Granted in terms of quality, VW isn't really a shining example. I really wish Toyota would get their heads out of their asses and make a BEV instead of relying on hybrids, because I trust them a lot more.

But it is a little disturbing when you see hacks like that coming off the production line. Toyota would stop the line for way smaller quality issues.

And this wasn't an isolated issue. Another time they wound up zip tying damper weights to suspension control arms.

Fark user imageView Full Size


https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmul​l​er/2018/04/25/teslas-brilliance-and-in​experience-revealed-in-benchmarking-st​udy-of-model-3/

It just seems a terrible idea to buy a Tesla on the first year or production. With the price of their vehicles, if they are taking shortcuts like this to keep the line moving, I'd hope that they would eventually do a recall on those VINs to swap the temporary fix with a newly machined part.
 
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