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(Chicago Trib)   "People in Illinois are not used to dealing with this," Mooney said. "We're not used to having to think fairly deeply about significant policy issues. We just don't do it here"   (chicagotribune.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Tax, Progressive tax, Taxation in the United States, tax burden, Illinois voters, proposed amendment, Income tax, Taxation  
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5172 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 20 Sep 2020 at 1:53 PM (5 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-09-20 9:43:45 AM  
Supporters contend a graduated-rate system is a fair way to shift the tax burden and generate more money to help end Illinois' long-term financial structural imbalance. Opponents contend it's a job-killing move that offers no guarantees that higher tax brackets for the wealthy won't creep down to the middle class.

Now let's see. Where have I heard this before....
 
2020-09-20 10:05:30 AM  
Well, there's your problem.
 
2020-09-20 10:15:15 AM  

whyRpeoplesostupid: Supporters contend a graduated-rate system is a fair way to shift the tax burden and generate more money to help end Illinois' long-term financial structural imbalance. Opponents contend it's a job-killing move that offers no guarantees that higher tax brackets for the wealthy won't creep down to the middle class.

Now let's see. Where have I heard this before....


It seems to be the tax cuts that have trouble creeping down to the middle class.
 
2020-09-20 10:20:16 AM  
It's kind of amusing to me that the shiattiest houses in my neighborhood have Vote No signs in front of them.

When will those poor millionaires temporary embarrassment ever end?
 
2020-09-20 10:49:07 AM  
Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.
 
2020-09-20 10:52:23 AM  

aimtastic: It's kind of amusing to me that the shiattiest houses in my neighborhood have Vote No signs in front of them.

When will those poor millionaires temporary embarrassment ever end?


Are they rentals where the landlord put the signs up?
 
2020-09-20 10:55:20 AM  

BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.


Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.
 
2020-09-20 10:59:51 AM  

italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.


Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.
 
2020-09-20 11:52:59 AM  
Explains why you can't drink the water
 
2020-09-20 12:20:48 PM  
All flat taxes disproportionately hurt poor people.
 
2020-09-20 2:07:40 PM  
The problem is that the Illinois politicians have repeatedly lied when it comes to taxes.  They always say temporary or only on the wealthy and every time it is not true.  We have no reason to believe them and this law will allow them to adjust the rates on anyone without taxpayer approval which is new.  We cannot believe that in 1-2 years they rates will change for lower and lower incomes since those who have analysed the numbers seem to agree that the proposed changes will be nowhere near the amount needed to cover obligations.  They have refused to change the pension system or expenses that are the problem also so future expenses are unlimited.  Good luck fellow Illinoians if this passes (and even if not since our tax burden is already one of the highest in the country and be are essentially bankrupt).
 
2020-09-20 2:11:00 PM  
Because the wealthy want to keep their wealth instead of supporting the community that actually supports them, keeps their water running and "safe".  If you're making so much money that you can "lose" a few billion in profit and still be a billionaire, then fark off and die vulture.
 
2020-09-20 2:12:24 PM  

llukan: The problem is that the Illinois politicians have repeatedly lied when it comes to taxes.  They always say temporary or only on the wealthy and every time it is not true.  We have no reason to believe them and this law will allow them to adjust the rates on anyone without taxpayer approval which is new.  We cannot believe that in 1-2 years they rates will change for lower and lower incomes since those who have analysed the numbers seem to agree that the proposed changes will be nowhere near the amount needed to cover obligations.  They have refused to change the pension system or expenses that are the problem also so future expenses are unlimited.  Good luck fellow Illinoians if this passes (and even if not since our tax burden is already one of the highest in the country and be are essentially bankrupt).


The part the hive mind reliably ignores: that the plan that looks great on paper will be executed ethically and competently by legislators with a history of sleaze and bungling.
 
2020-09-20 2:14:11 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: All flat taxes disproportionately hurt poor people.


Depends on how high the exemption is.  Fica and Medicare have no exemptions and totally suck, but some States have high exemptions. Just like sales taxes can hurt the poor depending upon what you exempt.
 
2020-09-20 2:20:43 PM  
"People in Illinois are not used to dealing with this," Mooney said. "We're not used to having to think fairly deeply about significant policy issues. We just don't do it here. You've got to remember that we're just simple farmers. People of the land. The common clay of the new West."
 
2020-09-20 2:22:29 PM  
Quote in the headline from Mooney says it all.

Most of Americans seem to run into trouble thinking fairly deeply about significant policy issues.

Washington State sends a Voters Pamphlet to every Postal Patron and they are available in all libraries, city halls, etc.

Last election, the custodian for the post office told me the garbage cans at the P.O. were filled to overflowing over a dozen times a day.

To paraphrase Dorothy Parker:

"You can lead the poors to water, but you can't make them think."
 
2020-09-20 2:27:50 PM  
If they want to increase tax revenue in Illinois, add a poll tax for voting more than once in an election.  I know it's illegal, but illegal in business as usual in Chicago during elections so it all works out.
 
2020-09-20 2:31:16 PM  
Libertarians said the flat tax would be great. It ain't.
 
2020-09-20 2:32:52 PM  

bighairyguy: If they want to increase tax revenue in Illinois, add a poll tax for voting more than once in an election.  I know it's illegal, but illegal in business as usual in Chicago during elections so it all works out.


For some unexplained reason, they seem to have had a high percentage of former Governors end up in jail. Maybe it's time for the people to start thinking deeply about all of the politicians they vote for.
 
2020-09-20 2:33:57 PM  

Gulper Eel: llukan: The problem is that the Illinois politicians have repeatedly lied when it comes to taxes.  They always say temporary or only on the wealthy and every time it is not true.  We have no reason to believe them and this law will allow them to adjust the rates on anyone without taxpayer approval which is new.  We cannot believe that in 1-2 years they rates will change for lower and lower incomes since those who have analysed the numbers seem to agree that the proposed changes will be nowhere near the amount needed to cover obligations.  They have refused to change the pension system or expenses that are the problem also so future expenses are unlimited.  Good luck fellow Illinoians if this passes (and even if not since our tax burden is already one of the highest in the country and be are essentially bankrupt).

The part the hive mind reliably ignores: that the plan that looks great on paper will be executed ethically and competently by legislators with a history of sleaze and bungling.


This literally describes every legislature in the US. It sounds like a denunciation of American democracy. Are you advocating against legislatures? They are typically the ones who set tax rates in most states and I have yet to see an example of a state legislature that is not packed with greedy, corrupt powermongers and self-interested business owners who are there primarily for the self-dealing and protecting their pet special interests.
 
2020-09-20 2:49:10 PM  

LarryDan43: Libertarians said the flat tax would be great. It ain't.


It would be great for the publishers and backers of Libertarian derp.  Helping anyone else isn't Libertarian.

And don't the thoughts of traditional Illinois voters center on "braaaaains"?  What has become of fark?  And yes, I don't expect downstate voters to be all that keen on Democracy either.  They don't do it well.  I've been to Peoria and don't intend to go back.

BolloxReader: Gulper Eel: llukan: The problem is that the Illinois politicians have repeatedly lied when it
This literally describes every legislature in the US. It sounds like a denunciation of American democracy. Are you advocating against legislatures? They are typically the ones who set tax rates in most states and I have yet to see an example of a state legislature that is not packed with greedy, corrupt powermongers and self-interested business owners who are there primarily for the self-dealing and protecting their pet special interests.


Basically you have to ignore what every single politician says about policy and vote on their record and ethics, because everything said on the campaign trail goes out the window the moment the legislature is in session.  If you really expected "compassionate conservatism" from Dubya or a sane tax system from Obama you were a sucker.  You get what you see, and those who elected Trump certainly got what they asked for.
 
2020-09-20 2:52:41 PM  

aimtastic: It's kind of amusing to me that the shiattiest houses in my neighborhood have Vote No signs in front of them.

When will those poor millionaires temporary embarrassment ever end?


And you're gonna learn what happens when your state's producers get tired of being fleeced for ever expanding "social programs" and government waste.
 
2020-09-20 2:58:16 PM  
Well you better start. This shiat affects you, whoever you are, wherever you are.
 
2020-09-20 2:58:48 PM  

BizarreMan: italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.

Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.


consider low income payers are paying negative or single digit rates, that's unlikely to be the case.

Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.
 
2020-09-20 3:02:20 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: aimtastic: It's kind of amusing to me that the shiattiest houses in my neighborhood have Vote No signs in front of them.

When will those poor millionaires temporary embarrassment ever end?

And you're gonna learn what happens when your state's producers get tired of being fleeced for ever expanding "social programs" and government waste.


Funny you should mention "Social programs"

Social services in Illinois haven't been funded to budget numbers in at least 15 years. I've lost count at the number of social programs that are now permanently shuttered due to lack of funding.

Your tax dollars are going somewhere, but it isn't social services.
 
2020-09-20 3:03:07 PM  
All conservatives are either stupid or evil.
/ why not both.
 
2020-09-20 3:05:42 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: BizarreMan: italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.

Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.

consider low income payers are paying negative or single digit rates, that's unlikely to be the case.

Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.


If you are making $400K in Illinois, you are doing well enough to cover the taxes in this proposal, which by the calculator in this very farking article, are not 6 figures.
 
2020-09-20 3:07:48 PM  

BizarreMan: italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.

Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.


Hour household income isn't quite $400k, but I'm a three percenter.  I do that calculation every year just so I can throw it at the flat tax dumbasses.

Generally, my actual tax (tax payed vs gross income) is around 17%.    I think that is right where the flat taxers claim truth and justice lies.   What it really means is that the 97% of the people not in my tax bracket get a tax increase.
 
2020-09-20 3:11:11 PM  

llukan: The problem is that the Illinois politicians have repeatedly lied when it comes to taxes.  They always say temporary or only on the wealthy and every time it is not true.  We have no reason to believe them and this law will allow them to adjust the rates on anyone without taxpayer approval which is new.  We cannot believe that in 1-2 years they rates will change for lower and lower incomes since those who have analysed the numbers seem to agree that the proposed changes will be nowhere near the amount needed to cover obligations.  They have refused to change the pension system or expenses that are the problem also so future expenses are unlimited.  Good luck fellow Illinoians if this passes (and even if not since our tax burden is already one of the highest in the country and be are essentially bankrupt).


Read the article again. This time look at the words.

"The opposition group also has been warning that the amendment does not include voter approval of new tax rates, leaving it up to politicians to decide them. But that is already the case in Illinois, where tax rates have never been part of the constitution. "
 
2020-09-20 3:17:02 PM  
Dogs bark, but the caravan moves on;.
 
2020-09-20 3:19:34 PM  
Illinois Tax Policy working committee
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-20 3:19:57 PM  
What a ridiculous notion. Everyone knows Illinois's current tax structure is fiscally sound. Why would they think of changing that?
 
2020-09-20 3:20:20 PM  

cwheelie: Illinois Tax Policy working committee
[Fark user image image 612x380]


You're actually not that far off.
 
2020-09-20 3:20:40 PM  

italie: thegreatmurgatroid: BizarreMan: italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.

Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.

consider low income payers are paying negative or single digit rates, that's unlikely to be the case.

Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.

If you are making $400K in Illinois, you are doing well enough to cover the taxes in this proposal, which by the calculator in this very farking article, are not 6 figures.


The calculator in the article is only for the state tax.  People making for $400k are in fact paying 6 figure federal tax bills.  These people are also already paying almost $20,000 in state taxes and will now be looking at an additional $5k.

I doubt any low earner is paying more tax as a percentage.  Likely orders of magnitude less and not even measurable on a gross basis.

I'm sure you don't care though "because they can afford it".  Coincidentally these people can also afford to move when they've had enough.  Hope you've thought your cunning plan through, comrades.
 
2020-09-20 3:22:12 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class,


This is why people think libertarians are out of touch with reality.
 
2020-09-20 3:25:34 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: BizarreMan: italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.

Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.

consider low income payers are paying negative or single digit rates, that's unlikely to be the case.

Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.


But don't let their writeoffs for home mortgage interest or writeoff for home equity line of credit interest or second home mortgage interest or paying expenses from a corporate pre-tax payment account get in the way of your feelings.

Anyone making decent money has more monthly tax writeoffs than the most generous of "public services" for the poors.

/I make much less than that, and I do all these things
//40% effective tax rate?  You're doing it wrong.
 
2020-09-20 3:35:50 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: aimtastic: It's kind of amusing to me that the shiattiest houses in my neighborhood have Vote No signs in front of them.

When will those poor millionaires temporary embarrassment ever end?

And you're gonna learn what happens when your state's producers get tired of being fleeced for ever expanding "social programs" and government waste.


"Producers?" As in Ayn Rand? Those titans of industry who have created everything of value, single-handedly? I think you're right, us lowly working class slobs should just lie down in the mud puddles so the producers can stride the earth without soiling their shiny shoes.
 
2020-09-20 3:38:26 PM  

whatisaidwas: thegreatmurgatroid: BizarreMan: italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.

Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.

consider low income payers are paying negative or single digit rates, that's unlikely to be the case.

Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.

But don't let their writeoffs for home mortgage interest or writeoff for home equity line of credit interest or second home mortgage interest or paying expenses from a corporate pre-tax payment account get in the way of your feelings.

Anyone making decent money has more monthly tax writeoffs than the most generous of "public services" for the poors.

/I make much less than that, and I do all these things
//40% effective tax rate?  You're doing it wrong.


Maybe you don't realize there is a cap of many of these deductions.
 
2020-09-20 3:38:58 PM  

allears: thegreatmurgatroid: aimtastic: It's kind of amusing to me that the shiattiest houses in my neighborhood have Vote No signs in front of them.

When will those poor millionaires temporary embarrassment ever end?

And you're gonna learn what happens when your state's producers get tired of being fleeced for ever expanding "social programs" and government waste.

"Producers?" As in Ayn Rand? Those titans of industry who have created everything of value, single-handedly? I think you're right, us lowly working class slobs should just lie down in the mud puddles so the producers can stride the earth without soiling their shiny shoes.


This is the same guy who also thinks someone earning $400K is on the high end of "working class".

So they aren't attached to reality at all.
 
2020-09-20 3:43:14 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: The calculator in the article is only for the state tax.  People making for $400k are in fact paying 6 figure federal tax bills.  These people are also already paying almost $20,000 in state taxes and will now be looking at an additional $5k.

I doubt any low earner is paying more tax as a percentage.  Likely orders of magnitude less and not even measurable on a gross basis.

I'm sure you don't care though "because they can afford it".  Coincidentally these people can also afford to move when they've had enough.  Hope you've thought your cunning plan through, comrades.


This argument is always made when raising state taxes on upper earners is proposed.  I'm not aware of it actually happening to a significant degree (though you'll probably get a few people citing it a reason when they actually had other more significant reasons, and maybe some people moving to the other side of a cross-state-line metro).  If you're earning $400k why would you uproot yourself and move over a lousy $5k?  I wouldn't move for the same percentage of my income, and the more you make, the less losing a given percentage hurts.
 
2020-09-20 3:49:26 PM  

italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.


Honestly, if you're making more than that, you have no excuse to biatch about money at all, taxes be damned.
 
2020-09-20 3:51:17 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: italie: thegreatmurgatroid: BizarreMan: italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.

Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.

consider low income payers are paying negative or single digit rates, that's unlikely to be the case.

Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.

If you are making $400K in Illinois, you are doing well enough to cover the taxes in this proposal, which by the calculator in this very farking article, are not 6 figures.

The calculator in the article is only for the state tax.  People making for $400k are in fact paying 6 figure federal tax bills.  These people are also already paying almost $20,000 in state taxes and will now be looking at an additional $5k.

I doubt any low earner is paying more tax as a percentage.  Likely orders of magnitude less and not even measurable on a gross basis.

I'm sure you don't care though "because they can afford it".  Coincidentally these people can also afford to move when they've had enough.  Hope you've thought your cunning plan through, comrades.


Who the hell mentioned federal?

You.
 
2020-09-20 3:56:25 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: italie: thegreatmurgatroid: BizarreMan: italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.

Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.

consider low income payers are paying negative or single digit rates, that's unlikely to be the case.

Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.

If you are making $400K in Illinois, you are doing well enough to cover the taxes in this proposal, which by the calculator in this very farking article, are not 6 figures.

The calculator in the article is only for the state tax.  People making for $400k are in fact paying 6 figure federal tax bills.  These people are also already paying almost $20,000 in state taxes and will now be looking at an additional $5k.

I doubt any low earner is paying more tax as a percentage.  Likely orders of magnitude less and not even measurable on a gross basis.

I'm sure you don't care though "because they can afford it".  Coincidentally these people can also afford to move when they've had enough.  Hope you've thought your cunning plan through, comrades.


But they won't.

Where are they going to move to that doesn't have a progressive state tax rate?

For example, in Missouri, if you are poor, taxes are higher in Illinois.  If you make 100,000 in Missouri, you pay more in Missouri... because they have a progressive tax rate.
 
2020-09-20 4:00:53 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.


400k is pretty far away from working class. Illinois has a flat tax, so they aren't paying in higher effective rate. Given the amount of available tax breaks for people and higher income brackets (e.g. greater access to rrsps, or whatever), under a flat tax system they are certainly not paying more than somebody scraping by on 50K

But don't let facts get in the way of your ideologies.
 
2020-09-20 4:03:07 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: whatisaidwas: thegreatmurgatroid: BizarreMan: italie: BizarreMan: Playing with the calculator on that page, the change from tax savings to tax "burden" happens at $257k for married, filing jointly and at that point it's very limited change.

I can see how all the poor people are concerned about this.

Just noticed the same.

Even up to $350k, it isn't that bad of a change.

Unless you make $400K+ a year, biatching about this is silly.

Yup.  Without diving into the various taxable deductions allowed on an existing return, I wonder what the actual tax rate paid by the people making $400k+ per year really is.

I'm betting that it's a hell of a lot less than the rate paid by the low income people.

consider low income payers are paying negative or single digit rates, that's unlikely to be the case.

Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.

But don't let their writeoffs for home mortgage interest or writeoff for home equity line of credit interest or second home mortgage interest or paying expenses from a corporate pre-tax payment account get in the way of your feelings.

Anyone making decent money has more monthly tax writeoffs than the most generous of "public services" for the poors.

/I make much less than that, and I do all these things
//40% effective tax rate?  You're doing it wrong.

Maybe you don't realize there is a cap of many of these deductions.


It's not my department, ask a CPA.
 
2020-09-20 4:05:05 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: I'm sure you don't care though "because they can afford it".  Coincidentally these people can also afford to move when they've had enough.  Hope you've thought your cunning plan through, comrades.


That's cool, I guess they can move.

it's not like that income is self-generated. They don't magically produce that money out of their ass. They produce it because they work for a company that's willing to pay a certain amount.  if that person gets fed up and leaves, I'm sure there are Replacements available.
 
2020-09-20 4:15:34 PM  

chawco: thegreatmurgatroid: Additionally, the people making around $400k are likely the upper echelon working class, not some elite oligarchs controlling society or generational wealth sitting back collecting fat passive income streams.  they are likely paying close to 40% effective rate, well over six figure tax bills, while going to work everyday just like everyone else.

But don't let these facts get in the way of your feelings.

400k is pretty far away from working class. Illinois has a flat tax, so they aren't paying in higher effective rate. Given the amount of available tax breaks for people and higher income brackets (e.g. greater access to rrsps, or whatever), under a flat tax system they are certainly not paying more than somebody scraping by on 50K

But don't let facts get in the way of your ideologies.


Lol at thinking people making $400k are somehow getting extra tax advantages when they are likely the exact group that is paying the highest effective rate.  You guys can't even cite the exact tax "breaks" that these people get because they don't actually exists.  You're thinking of the wealthy class that owns corporations and uses off shore accounts or special accounting schemes to pay themselves with dividends rather than salary.

Most people making around $400k are going to work everyday just like people making $40k.  Corrected for inflation, $400k today is the equivalent of $48k in 1965.  These aren't the rich people holding others back and not paying their fair share.  These are the highly skilled and educated members of the working class.
 
2020-09-20 4:16:02 PM  

BolloxReader: Gulper Eel: llukan: The problem is that the Illinois politicians have repeatedly lied when it comes to taxes.  They always say temporary or only on the wealthy and every time it is not true.  We have no reason to believe them and this law will allow them to adjust the rates on anyone without taxpayer approval which is new.  We cannot believe that in 1-2 years they rates will change for lower and lower incomes since those who have analysed the numbers seem to agree that the proposed changes will be nowhere near the amount needed to cover obligations.  They have refused to change the pension system or expenses that are the problem also so future expenses are unlimited.  Good luck fellow Illinoians if this passes (and even if not since our tax burden is already one of the highest in the country and be are essentially bankrupt).

The part the hive mind reliably ignores: that the plan that looks great on paper will be executed ethically and competently by legislators with a history of sleaze and bungling.

This literally describes every legislature in the US. It sounds like a denunciation of American democracy. Are you advocating against legislatures? They are typically the ones who set tax rates in most states and I have yet to see an example of a state legislature that is not packed with greedy, corrupt powermongers and self-interested business owners who are there primarily for the self-dealing and protecting their pet special interests.


We have a system whereby you almost invariably have to have access to loads of money and connections in order to come close to any office, let alone win it.  The people who are good at being rich or getting money from rich people tend not to be the same people you want running states and cities.  They also tend to be corrupt or at least crooked, because you can't be an honest, ethical person and rich at the same time, because that's not how capitalism works.  

Like most administrative positions, the people who want political positions are often the exact ones you least want in them.  The best people to run this country would be the educated poor and marginalized, but they're too poor and marginalized to win elections.
 
2020-09-20 4:21:17 PM  

thegreatmurgatroid: Most people making around $400k are going to work everyday just like people making $40k.  Corrected for inflation, $400k today is the equivalent of $48k in 1965.  These aren't the rich people holding others back and not paying their fair share.  These are the highly skilled and educated members of the working class.


It takes a special type of delusion to actually believe bullshiat like this.

But I admire your committee in trying to convince us that someone making over 4x the average income is somehow still "working class".
 
2020-09-20 4:22:41 PM  
Actually 400K would be over 6x the average US income.

Guess I was being generous.
 
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