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(The Drive)   The Brit MoD is looking to cut down their F-35 order in favor of the undeveloped Tempest fighter. Think maybe they know something we're don't?   (thedrive.com) divider line
    More: Asinine, Royal Air Force, Royal Navy, F-35 Lightning II, F-35B Lightning jet fighters, United Kingdom, Carrier Strike programs, next defense review, UK Ministry of Defence  
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4170 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 20 Sep 2020 at 2:45 AM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-09-20 2:50:21 AM  
You mean like they only ordered them because they were 'encouraged' to by an administration desperate to run the country like a cheap real estate slum lord's deals as part of larger negotiations, and they don't expect to care about currying favor with that person going forward?
 
2020-09-20 2:55:25 AM  
Cheap electronics will make surface to air missiles easy for marginal groups to craft. Close air support might become a difficult prospect for major militaries to maintain.
 
2020-09-20 2:59:37 AM  
A sovereign country makes decisions about its own defense programme? How is this asinine, subby?
 
2020-09-20 3:06:48 AM  

wildcardjack: Cheap electronics will make surface to air missiles easy for marginal groups to craft. Close air support might become a difficult prospect for major militaries to maintain.


Drones will be cheaper and easier to make.
 
2020-09-20 3:08:47 AM  
24 Lightnings are a "credible complement"

More than that and you risk hitting "fawning praise".
 
2020-09-20 3:11:53 AM  

wildcardjack: Cheap electronics will make surface to air missiles easy for marginal groups to craft. Close air support might become a difficult prospect for major militaries to maintain.


Most of the necessary electronics for a guided missile system can be found in a Wii remote, millions of which are readily available in e-waste piles around the world. Just sayin'.
 
2020-09-20 3:13:03 AM  
The current British government has a farking clue about something?   You sure about that?
 
2020-09-20 3:35:36 AM  
They're planning on more teacup battles?
 
2020-09-20 3:51:38 AM  
Prospero recommended.
 
2020-09-20 3:57:32 AM  
They expect to be able to resume relying on America to maintain our actual military defense of their sovereignty out of our own self-interest, thus given any need to invest in actual military capability, they'd prefer to spend money on social welfare disguised as military R&D?
 
2020-09-20 3:58:03 AM  
thus given  => thus absent
 
2020-09-20 4:00:13 AM  

KodosZardoz: Prospero recommended.


"The Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office today advised British nationals against all but essential travel to Prospero..."

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-20 4:03:34 AM  

Enigmamf: They expect to be able to resume relying on America to maintain our actual military defense of their sovereignty out of our own self-interest, thus given any need to invest in actual military capability, they'd prefer to spend money on social welfare disguised as military R&D?


Or they would prefer an aircraft that's actually capable and aren't interested in lining the pockets of American defense industry lobbyists
 
2020-09-20 4:08:29 AM  

Enigmamf: They expect to be able to resume relying on America to maintain our actual military defense of their sovereignty out of our own self-interest, thus given any need to invest in actual military capability, they'd prefer to spend money on social welfare disguised as military R&D?


Or recent events have shown that relying on an ally that is displaying increasingly inconsistent foreign policy for a critical supply chain backing the central component of your whole carrier based naval defense program is no longer a wise decision.
 
2020-09-20 4:13:53 AM  
Canada should join that Tempest group.
 
2020-09-20 4:36:13 AM  

Pointy Tail of Satan: Canada should join that Tempest group.


Yeah, it's not like they need an air force either.
 
2020-09-20 4:52:39 AM  
More likely Covid-19 related.  Covid is going to hit a lot of budgets hard and you'll see a lot of defense budgets take a hit.  Britain has already been paring back on a lot of defense projects so the F-35 is pretty logical.  After all, the Eurofighter is going to need a replacement so the Tempest project is one of the major, if not the major, defense project for Britain right now.  Only the Dreadnought-class might be more important.
 
2020-09-20 5:04:54 AM  
That you can buy 25-30 second gen fighters for the same cost?
 
2020-09-20 5:06:48 AM  
Oh, boo hoo, subby. Get a frickin life, yo!
 
2020-09-20 5:07:00 AM  

wildcardjack: Cheap electronics will make surface to air missiles easy for marginal groups to craft. Close air support might become a difficult prospect for major militaries to maintain.


The electronics would never have been a problem. It's the whole making the thing fly, point in the direction of the thing it's supposed to be hitting and explode when near that thing that is the problem. That means a lot of development and testing, not some half assed lashed together parts.

And if you're terrorist / fringe group then you're better off buying yourself an off-the-shelf drone and strapping a bomb to it, or welding some rails to the back of a hilux, and launching some unguided rockets from it in the direction you hope to hit.
 
2020-09-20 5:17:46 AM  
So BAe has already made the money it was going to from the F35 project so has leaned on the MoD to back its new horse instead (to the tune of billions of £).
 
2020-09-20 5:36:51 AM  

ReluctantLondon: Enigmamf: They expect to be able to resume relying on America to maintain our actual military defense of their sovereignty out of our own self-interest, thus given any need to invest in actual military capability, they'd prefer to spend money on social welfare disguised as military R&D?

. Or they would prefer an aircraft that's actually capable and aren't interested in lining the pockets of American defense industry lobbyists


I don't think anyone cares if the Tempest is that capable, and this is about creating jobs, not aircraft.
 
2020-09-20 6:04:45 AM  

zimbach: wildcardjack: Cheap electronics will make surface to air missiles easy for marginal groups to craft. Close air support might become a difficult prospect for major militaries to maintain.

Most of the necessary electronics for a guided missile system can be found in a Wii remote, millions of which are readily available in e-waste piles around the world. Just sayin'.


Then you know it's just going to jam to the right anyway.
 
2020-09-20 6:16:58 AM  
And that's why everyone in the UK deserves to suffer!
 
2020-09-20 6:19:14 AM  
After this shiatshow, the UK will have to reduce Armed Forces budgets to the point that infantry battalions will be down to 2 men, one to fire the rifle and the other to ask for the bullet back.
 
2020-09-20 6:31:59 AM  
Brit?  No
 
2020-09-20 6:40:25 AM  

Gpzjock: After this shiatshow, the UK will have to reduce Armed Forces budgets to the point that infantry battalions will be down to 2 men, one to fire the rifle and the other to ask for the bullet back.


Silly, they will be told to shout 'Bang!" then pass the pistol (can't afford rifles) to the other guy.
 
2020-09-20 6:49:06 AM  

Somaticasual: That you can buy 25-30 second gen fighters for the same cost?


Tempest is a 6th gen.

You could get a shiat ton of mig21s, but there's the hidden cost of training pilots and maintaining them.
 
2020-09-20 7:02:47 AM  
We amt enough smarts to build this
 
2020-09-20 7:20:37 AM  
When your defence industry is based on spreading the cash across jurisdictions controlled by various senators and congresscritters, regardless of merit, you can't expect to win farking wars. Not talking about the UK here, but Boris and his cronies can EABOD as well.
 
2020-09-20 7:28:40 AM  
Think maybe they know something we're don't?

English, perhaps?
 
2020-09-20 7:32:02 AM  

LowbrowDeluxe: You mean like they only ordered them because they were 'encouraged' to by an administration desperate to run the country like a cheap real estate slum lord's deals as part of larger negotiations, and they don't expect to care about currying favor with that person going forward?


"The target of 138 aircraft purchased across the lifespan of the program was included in the UK government's last Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) in 2015. "

Interesting timeline you have there.
 
2020-09-20 7:37:33 AM  
rumor has it the Tempest will have updated Bluetooth connectivity for music sharing and more stable cup holders.
easy to see why any country would wait for a better model of 6th gen fighter.

but that is just a rumor.
 
2020-09-20 7:44:47 AM  

Troy Aikman's Giant Thumbs: Or recent events have shown that relying on an ally that is displaying increasingly inconsistent foreign policy for a critical supply chain backing the central component of your whole carrier based naval defense program is no longer a wise decision.


I think a lot of countries will try to disentangle themselves from the US economically and militarily. Trump has shown nothing but contempt for Europe and open hostility towards China. After the Bush and Trump administrations, close tied with the US must be seen as more of a liability than an asset.
 
2020-09-20 7:49:19 AM  

Pointy Tail of Satan: Canada should join that Tempest group.


The government has pooped on suggestions to buy any aircraft from Europe because of NORAD interoperability requirements. I'm not sure exactly how much that matters since it isn't like NATO aircraft don't work together all the time anyway. Personally I was rooting for the Saab Gripen it seemed like a high tech enough solution for a military that has at times seen its budget slashed far enough back that it lacked even ammunition for training exercises.
 
2020-09-20 7:53:32 AM  

Ketchuponsteak: Somaticasual: That you can buy 25-30 second gen fighters for the same cost?

Tempest is a 6th gen.

You could get a shiat ton of mig21s, but there's the hidden cost of training pilots and maintaining them.


In a shameful admission from an aviation nerd, I was mistaken - I simply meant one generation old

//now, off to commit sepuku. And review the wiki on the actual generations...
 
2020-09-20 8:08:35 AM  

lobotomy survivor: Troy Aikman's Giant Thumbs: Or recent events have shown that relying on an ally that is displaying increasingly inconsistent foreign policy for a critical supply chain backing the central component of your whole carrier based naval defense program is no longer a wise decision.

I think a lot of countries will try to disentangle themselves from the US economically and militarily. Trump has shown nothing but contempt for Europe and open hostility towards China. After the Bush and Trump administrations, close tied with the US must be seen as more of a liability than an asset.


User name checks out.

China is a much greater liability. It's openly bullying it's neighbors with military force, bribing dictators with belt&road initiatives, running concentration camps to take advantage of slave labor, and so far it's not provided any actual military support to allies with the forces it's been building.
Germany wants to align with Russia because Putin promised Merkel cheap fuel, and in exchange they must ignore China, in a deal that is sure not to backfire on two fronts.

The UK is hurting industrially thanks to the EU, so it's pushing tempest as a pork barrel project. This fighter does not work with Britain's new carrier so they still need the F-35. The US will likely overlook it. The program will go the same way South Korea's new fighter has, most likely costing more and taking a decade longer than planned because stealth is expensive.
If e-series works as planned then we will be diversifying from the F-35 anyway.  It's an export fighter now.

/Keeping on good terms with the British is important for when the Germans flip again.
/It's a cyclical thing with them.
 
2020-09-20 8:12:55 AM  
Because the engineering specifications and for the platform's avionics, performance and capabilities are now light reading for the Russian high command?  Because it was built by idiots as a huge ponzi scheme by the military complex? Who knows?

Considering how the F35's avionics die in a rainstorm, you can see how our British cousins may not be so keen on using them (hint: It rains a lot there).
 
2020-09-20 8:15:40 AM  
 
2020-09-20 8:22:58 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size


What is this, a Tempest for ants??!
 
2020-09-20 8:24:45 AM  

Enigmamf: thus given  => thus absent


Doesn't make it any better.
 
2020-09-20 8:42:52 AM  
The USAF tipped their hand about future aircraft acquisition when they announced a 6th gen jet fighter prototype was already built and flown.

Going forward the AF expects to buy 60-80 aircraft about every 5-10 years that are rapidly built to the best that can be attained now with off-the-shelf technology. Each purchase will be made to be electronically compatible (data links) with existing aircraft. Then, as that particular fleet becomes expensive to maintain (typically after about 15-20 years of flight on the airframes), they will be scrapped and replaced with the newest built round of purchases.
 
2020-09-20 8:54:45 AM  
The security of the F-35 program is better than I imagined, if the absolute bollocks spewed on this thread is anything to go by.
 
2020-09-20 9:04:58 AM  
What a Brit Mod might look like.

i.pinimg.comView Full Size
 
2020-09-20 9:20:30 AM  

Somaticasual: That you can buy 25-30 second gen fighters for the same cost?


Lockheed is still building F-16s. At 20mil a copy you might get 4 or 5. 35s are around 90 to 120 mil right now. Check your math.
 
2020-09-20 9:21:17 AM  

Somaticasual: Ketchuponsteak: Somaticasual: That you can buy 25-30 second gen fighters for the same cost?

Tempest is a 6th gen.

You could get a shiat ton of mig21s, but there's the hidden cost of training pilots and maintaining them.

In a shameful admission from an aviation nerd, I was mistaken - I simply meant one generation old

//now, off to commit sepuku. And review the wiki on the actual generations...


People call the Eurofighter 4.5gen, and the F35 5thgen.

But the Eurofighter costs more!

The F18 newest version is about half price.

/I know this since Denmark settled on the F35, and it is expensive which resulted in Denmark purchasing to few. Only 27, some of them will be permanently stationed in USA for pilot training, some will be performing permanent NATO missions for nations that don't have their own airforce (Baltics and Iceland), some will be permanently on Bornholm as per treaty with the Soviet Union.

That leaves very few to do international missions, and protect the rest of Denmark. Especially when we assume some are being maintained.
 
2020-09-20 9:24:19 AM  

ReluctantLondon: KodosZardoz: Prospero recommended.

"The Foreign, Commonwealth & Development Office today advised British nationals against all but essential travel to Prospero..."

[Fark user image image 425x265]


Magnus did something wrong.
 
2020-09-20 9:34:48 AM  

zimbach: wildcardjack: Cheap electronics will make surface to air missiles easy for marginal groups to craft. Close air support might become a difficult prospect for major militaries to maintain.

Most of the necessary electronics for a guided missile system can be found in a Wii remote, millions of which are readily available in e-waste piles around the world. Just sayin'.


Do go on. Schematic and parts list too please. Amazon and eBay links appreciated.

//am I going to need a bunch of AA batteries? cuz I do have a Costco membership
 
2020-09-20 9:38:10 AM  

LowbrowDeluxe: You mean like they only ordered them because they were 'encouraged' to by an administration desperate to run the country like a cheap real estate slum lord's deals as part of larger negotiations, and they don't expect to care about currying favor with that person going forward?


22 people have "Smarted" this post so far.

Fark really brings out the groupthink in people.
 
2020-09-20 9:38:36 AM  

Pointy Tail of Satan: Canada should join that Tempest group.


Please... It's taken how many decades to get the CF18 replacements? farking bureauocratic nincompoops!
 
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