iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: ...

So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?

Maybe use a different name?

Better yet, don't label yourself by what you are against, but by what you are for. I'm much more interested in working with people who want to support democracy rather than simply settle for anything that's not fascism.

Also, I don't care how much someone says they are against fascism if they aren't willing to shoot fascists in the face. That is the only way to deal with Nazis.

Wow, you've got a lot of issues to work through.

Why, because I believe in democracy?

You say that, but you're anti-antifascists, but you say you want to shoot fascists in the face.

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I never said I was antantifascist. I just know their history, unlike apparently most of the internet.

Any sane person is against fascists. But as much as there has been gnashing of teeth since the rise of the alt-right, most people who call themselves antifa seem very reluctant to actually engage in direct action. Which is particularly ironic given that they have adopted the name of KPD streetfighters. Sure, they talk about punching Nazis in the face, and they go on about how the right-wing gun-nuts are a threat, but are any of them arming themselves? Well, some are, but they don't go around on line telling everyone how they're antifa.

The one thing which has been constant throughout the history of antifa in all its various permutations is that it has never been pro-democracy. So no, I'm not going to embrace the name of a movement which does not believe in democracy, even if we have the same enemies.

(Why does that sound familiar? I think I heard about a similar situation in history.)

OptionC: g.fro: OptionC: bobbyjoebobby: A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.

Who is the leader of antifa?

Movements without leaders aren't real?

Without membership, leadership and hierarchy there is nothing which can be described as an organization.

So then neither Occupy Wall Street nor Black Lives Matter exist(ed).

iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: g.fro: The one thing which has been constant throughout the history of antifa in all its various permutations is that it has never been pro-democracy. So no, I'm not going to embrace the name of a movement which does not believe in democracy, even if we have the same enemies.

What does that mean for the pro-democracy Americans who either march under that banner, or have the label of antifa thrust upon them by a corrupt government right now?

Not true liberal democrats?

People trying to subvert the meaning of anti-fascism are more suspect, to me.

If they are having a label thrust upon them, they could try pushing back, instead of embracing it because they don't know what it means. If they do know what it means, and willingly adopt that banner, then they are not liberal democrats.

And I'm not sure which people you mean by "subverting the meaning" of the term. Are the people insisting it still means what it always meant, or the people trying to expand it to include everyone who is not a Trumpist, whether they want title or not, the ones subverting it?

There's nothing wrong with being an anti-fascist.

Did you not read the tome I posted above, or are you ignoring it?

Even if antifa did just mean anti-fascist (nevermind the fact Americans don't abbreviate things that way), would it be enough? During the Cold War, the USA supported any number of regimes which could only be called anti-communist. What can possibly be wrong with being anti-communist (I wonder why we never called them antico)? Well, ask just about any country in Latin America. Ask most of Southern Africa. The Rhodesians always thought they were the good guys because they were fighting Communists. But they were racist, fascist assholes. Every regime we supported in Southeast Asia; anti-communist, and in no way democratic.

Such is the case with antifa. They might be against fascism, but they are not for democracy. The fact they've gotten so many people to believe it just means anti-fascist just shows how effective the branding is.

iron de havilland: g.fro: The one thing which has been constant throughout the history of antifa in all its various permutations is that it has never been pro-democracy. So no, I'm not going to embrace the name of a movement which does not believe in democracy, even if we have the same enemies.

What does that mean for the pro-democracy Americans who either march under that banner, or have the label of antifa thrust upon them by a corrupt government right now?

Not true liberal democrats?

People trying to subvert the meaning of anti-fascism are more suspect, to me.

If they are having a label thrust upon them, they could try pushing back, instead of embracing it because they don't know what it means. If they do know what it means, and willingly adopt that banner, then they are not liberal democrats.

And I'm not sure which people you mean by "subverting the meaning" of the term. Are the people insisting it still means what it always meant, or the people trying to expand it to include everyone who is not a Trumpist, whether they want title or not, the ones subverting it?

iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: g.fro: Did you not read the tome I posted above, or are you ignoring it?

I read it, but I'm ignoring it because it's worthless. You might have made a better case arguing about the perversion of the swastika into the hakenkreuz, and how it's problematic to display swastikas openly today. That would have been a good example of how right-wingers tend to ruin everything.

But today? Antifa still has connotations of being against fascism. And that is not a bad position to hold, and it is not incompatible with liberal democracy.

So, I proudly proclaim that I am antifa.

/Just gotta wait for the Sorosbucks to roll right in, now.

Good for you. I'm not a communist, so no matter how much I oppose fascism, I'm not adopting that title.

I'm not a communist either, but I will gladly take the mantle of being against fascism.

You should, too.

If you think I'm not against fascism then you haven't been reading my posts; and if you're not going to read my posts, I'm not going to waste any more time.

Sure, you need to take a bit of time to consider what it means to be against fascism.

Have a think, then get back to me.

You are being thick. Not everyone who is against fascism is antifa. It is not a binary where one is either a Nazi or antifa, and if you think it is, you're either a child or an idiot. I don't know what it is about the internet that makes people take pride in their ignorance, and then turn that into feeling superior to people who actually know stuff, but you seem to be textbook example tonight. Go call yourself whatever you want. I don't know why you even care, you're not going to have to deal with whatever shiat happens in the next six weeks.

Have a good night.

iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: g.fro: Did you not read the tome I posted above, or are you ignoring it?

I read it, but I'm ignoring it because it's worthless. You might have made a better case arguing about the perversion of the swastika into the hakenkreuz, and how it's problematic to display swastikas openly today. That would have been a good example of how right-wingers tend to ruin everything.

But today? Antifa still has connotations of being against fascism. And that is not a bad position to hold, and it is not incompatible with liberal democracy.

So, I proudly proclaim that I am antifa.

/Just gotta wait for the Sorosbucks to roll right in, now.

Good for you. I'm not a communist, so no matter how much I oppose fascism, I'm not adopting that title.

I'm not a communist either, but I will gladly take the mantle of being against fascism.

You should, too.

If you think I'm not against fascism then you haven't been reading my posts; and if you're not going to read my posts, I'm not going to waste any more time.

iron de havilland: g.fro: Did you not read the tome I posted above, or are you ignoring it?

I read it, but I'm ignoring it because it's worthless. You might have made a better case arguing about the perversion of the swastika into the hakenkreuz, and how it's problematic to display swastikas openly today. That would have been a good example of how right-wingers tend to ruin everything.

But today? Antifa still has connotations of being against fascism. And that is not a bad position to hold, and it is not incompatible with liberal democracy.

So, I proudly proclaim that I am antifa.

/Just gotta wait for the Sorosbucks to roll right in, now.

Good for you. I'm not a communist, so no matter how much I oppose fascism, I'm not adopting that title.

iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: ...

So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?

Maybe use a different name?

Better yet, don't label yourself by what you are against, but by what you are for. I'm much more interested in working with people who want to support democracy rather than simply settle for anything that's not fascism.

Also, I don't care how much someone says they are against fascism if they aren't willing to shoot fascists in the face. That is the only way to deal with Nazis.

Wow, you've got a lot of issues to work through.

Why, because I believe in democracy?

OptionC: bobbyjoebobby: A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.

Who is the leader of antifa?

Movements without leaders aren't real?

Tranquil Hegemony: Again I ask, what exactly should people opposed to fascism call themselves that won't hurt Republicans' feelings?

Democrats?

TommyStiletto: Wasn't "antifa" the whole point of World War II?

Antifa originated as the abbreviation of Antifaschistische Aktion, the armed, para-military wing of the KPD. It was founded in 1932 as the successor to the KPD's earlier para-military group, the Roter Frontkämpferbund or, RFB, which existed from 1924 to 1929. Antifa's main job was protecting KPD events, marching to support their candidates and intimidate others, and perhaps most importantly, fight pitched street battles with the Nazi's armed para-militaries, Sturmabteilung, aka the SA, the brownshirts, or stormtroopers. When they weren't fighting Nazis, they were fighting the Socialdemocrats (SPD) and their loosely affiliated Eiserne Front.Obviously after the NSDAP came to power, the KPD, antifa, and all other political groups were banned, and many members wound up in concentration camps.

The term antifa, or more usually anti-fascist, entered wider use by the Left, especially by the Comintern, during the Spanish Civil War. The Republican side was a conglomeration of political groups who only shared their opposition to the Nationalist rebels. Most, but not all of these groups were leftists of varying degrees of radicalism. As Italy and Germany increased their support for the Nationalists, the Republicans could only find support from the USSR. This diminished popular support for the Spanish Republic among the western public, so to downplay Moscow's near takeover of the Republican cause, the term anti-fascist was preferred.

After WWII, antifa continued to be term in common usage in Europe for a variety of Left-wing youth groups. These ranged from simple gangs who liked to get in street fights with racist punks and hooligans, to actual terrorist organizations funded and controlled by Moscow. After the Red Summer of 1968, the USSR toned down the armed terrorism, although some groups like the Rote Armee Fraktion(RAF) aka the Baader-Meinhof Group, or the Brigate Rossecontinued. Anti-fascist would continue on in Soviet parlance (for example in the official name of the Berlin Wall) but as glasnost became official policy, the term antifa became more and more associated with elements of the punk scene. It would occasionally be used to describe independent groups which considered themselves leftists dedicated to direct action, such as the Black Bloc, But was mostly passé. Until an actual fascist got elected President. All of a sudden the term "Antifa" gets thrown around, and when people who had never heard it before ask, "what does that mean?" they are told simply, "it means anti-fascist."  And so, not knowing the term's history, they start using it, perhaps even to refer to themselves. And when someone points out it's actual, historical meaning, they reject it as counter-propaganda.