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(Guardian)   It's official: "Antifa did it" is the new "the dog ate my homework"   (theguardian.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Police, Law enforcement agency, stream of intelligence reports, law enforcement agencies, arson attacks, anarchist extremists, recent days  
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5541 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 19 Sep 2020 at 2:50 PM (10 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-09-19 5:52:58 PM  

Hirightnow: The push to demonize ANTIFA has been escalated since the first whiff of "No, Donnie, you won't win the election" has been in the air.


look at the timing of the Tik Tok thing too.  Trump's plans are easy to see when and where they form.

Trump didn't a fark about Tik Tok, then the whole debacle with his rally where people on Tik Tok rallied people to take up tickets and he had a low turnout and suddenly Tik Tok was evil.

Don't get me wrong, tik tok and we chat are run by proxy by the Chinese government and is probably a national securoty threat.  But trump didn't give a shiat about that until they screwed up his ratings.

It's easy to track most of Trump's policy to single events where he got his fee fees hurt and then he will retaliate.
 
2020-09-19 5:55:40 PM  

MinnesotaJack: bthom37: MinnesotaJack: I grew up in a stink add small town in Minnesota and as soon as I was done with HS I moved to Minneapolis and I could walk down the street without being hassled by redneck asshomes.
Well somebody burned the beast of south Minneapolis down it was not rednecks. It was drunk young people. You assholes wrecked the only decent place to live between Chicago and Seattle. You impatient assholes are wrecking Portland too. Please stay on your farking campuses and wreck your dorms from now on

Damn, you sound old.

How's your lawn doing?  I bet there's an Antifa supersoldier on it right now!  You should go tell them what for!

I'm old enough to remember living in South Minneapolis when it was called Murderapolis


I grew up on Lyndale and West Broadway in the 70's. Pffft....
 
2020-09-19 5:57:28 PM  
People be acting like this is a real thing.
Like the Symbionese Liberation Army.
Oooh. I'm so scared.


If you aren't a facist piece of shiat, why would you fear antifacists?

I'll wait
 
2020-09-19 6:03:11 PM  
I have an Aunt Eifa does that count
 
2020-09-19 6:04:08 PM  

vudukungfu: People be acting like this is a real thing.
Like the Symbionese Liberation Army.
Oooh. I'm so scared.


If you aren't a facist piece of shiat, why would you fear antifacists?

I'll wait


How dare you.

Don't you remember the Bowling Green Massacre?  Where antifa eradicated almost a whole town before they were stopped by Real Parriots with American made pickups and AR15's.

How dare you forget.  You must be antifa.
 
2020-09-19 6:08:23 PM  

vudukungfu: If you aren't a facist piece of shiat, why would you fear antifacists?


You might want to sit down for this but some have an overly broad definition of fascist.
 
2020-09-19 6:08:50 PM  

TommyStiletto: Wasn't "antifa" the whole point of World War II?


Antifa originated as the abbreviation of Antifaschistische Aktion, the armed, para-military wing of the KPD. It was founded in 1932 as the successor to the KPD's earlier para-military group, the Roter Frontkämpferbund or, RFB, which existed from 1924 to 1929. Antifa's main job was protecting KPD events, marching to support their candidates and intimidate others, and perhaps most importantly, fight pitched street battles with the Nazi's armed para-militaries, Sturmabteilung, aka the SA, the brownshirts, or stormtroopers. When they weren't fighting Nazis, they were fighting the Socialdemocrats (SPD) and their loosely affiliated Eiserne Front.Obviously after the NSDAP came to power, the KPD, antifa, and all other political groups were banned, and many members wound up in concentration camps.

The term antifa, or more usually anti-fascist, entered wider use by the Left, especially by the Comintern, during the Spanish Civil War. The Republican side was a conglomeration of political groups who only shared their opposition to the Nationalist rebels. Most, but not all of these groups were leftists of varying degrees of radicalism. As Italy and Germany increased their support for the Nationalists, the Republicans could only find support from the USSR. This diminished popular support for the Spanish Republic among the western public, so to downplay Moscow's near takeover of the Republican cause, the term anti-fascist was preferred.

After WWII, antifa continued to be term in common usage in Europe for a variety of Left-wing youth groups. These ranged from simple gangs who liked to get in street fights with racist punks and hooligans, to actual terrorist organizations funded and controlled by Moscow. After the Red Summer of 1968, the USSR toned down the armed terrorism, although some groups like the Rote Armee Fraktion(RAF) aka the Baader-Meinhof Group, or the Brigate Rossecontinued. Anti-fascist would continue on in Soviet parlance (for example in the official name of the Berlin Wall) but as glasnost became official policy, the term antifa became more and more associated with elements of the punk scene. It would occasionally be used to describe independent groups which considered themselves leftists dedicated to direct action, such as the Black Bloc, But was mostly passé. Until an actual fascist got elected President. All of a sudden the term "Antifa" gets thrown around, and when people who had never heard it before ask, "what does that mean?" they are told simply, "it means anti-fascist."  And so, not knowing the term's history, they start using it, perhaps even to refer to themselves. And when someone points out it's actual, historical meaning, they reject it as counter-propaganda.
 
2020-09-19 6:09:52 PM  
A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.
 
2020-09-19 6:11:48 PM  

big pig peaches: paygun: Antifa doesn't exist.  Anyone who claims to be Antifa is a white supremacist.

[Fark user image image 425x283]
[Fark user image image 259x194]


Cute pictures of cats!
 
2020-09-19 6:15:47 PM  

MinnesotaJack: bthom37: MinnesotaJack: I grew up in a stink add small town in Minnesota and as soon as I was done with HS I moved to Minneapolis and I could walk down the street without being hassled by redneck asshomes.
Well somebody burned the beast of south Minneapolis down it was not rednecks. It was drunk young people. You assholes wrecked the only decent place to live between Chicago and Seattle. You impatient assholes are wrecking Portland too. Please stay on your farking campuses and wreck your dorms from now on

Damn, you sound old.

How's your lawn doing?  I bet there's an Antifa supersoldier on it right now!  You should go tell them what for!

I'm old enough to remember living in South Minneapolis when it was called Murderapolis


I went to Stand up Frank's once. That place made the Mos Eisley cantina look like Chuckie Cheese
 
2020-09-19 6:19:59 PM  

bobbyjoebobby: A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.


Someday, maybe, something right wingers blame on antifa will actually be done by antifa. That day is not this day. It's right wing accelerationist turtles all the way down.
 
2020-09-19 6:20:52 PM  
Again I ask, what exactly should people opposed to fascism call themselves that won't hurt Republicans' feelings?
 
2020-09-19 6:22:40 PM  

Tranquil Hegemony: Again I ask, what exactly should people opposed to fascism call themselves that won't hurt Republicans' feelings?


That's the rub. You can't be against fascists without hurting right winger feelings. That should tell us all something, shouldn't it.
 
2020-09-19 6:31:57 PM  

Abox: vudukungfu: If you aren't a facist piece of shiat, why would you fear antifacists?

You might want to sit down for this but some have an overly broad definition of fascist.


That's why I almost always use the term "Republican".
It's indisputably accurate.
Unless we're talking about Libertarians.
Both parties are very fascist in 2020 America, though.
Your defense of them and denials is bullshiat.
 
2020-09-19 6:32:04 PM  
So "Antifa" is the new "communism." Got it.

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
 
2020-09-19 6:32:13 PM  

tuxq: rjakobi: "This is all the fault of BLM and Antifa!  They're the real villains!"
"Are they?  Do you feel threatened by them?"
"Yes!  They're attacking everything I stand for!"
"Antifa stands for Anti-fascist.  Are you telling me you're a...fascist?"
"No, I'm American."
"Then you have nothing to worry about since they're only attacking hate groups, not normal Americans."
"But...but...Fox News says..."
"Fox News is a faceless organization funded by well-documented right winged sociopaths.  This has never been disputed and never will.  Maybe they're so worried about being attacked that you are feeling guilty by association, or maybe they're trying to make you implicit in their crimes by saying you are a target."
"But all of that fake news..."
"Who exactly is telling you it's fake?  Did you already take the time to fact-check or are you relying on a source that just tells you things you want to hear?"
"But...riots...and..."
"They were brought about because those in power prefer to cling to lies and want to take down as many of their followers with them as possible.  You are not a mindless sheep. You are a capable thinking person who can make rational decisions despite your pigmentation or gender or carnal preference.  Think for yourself."
"But..."
"THINK.  FOR.  YOURSELF."

Ok. Thinking for myself...and...
[Fark user image 425x596]

You might wanna brush up on history. Hive-mind reactions are predictable and so far the predictions have been correct.


That's what the right wants.

neongoats: Narrator: anytime right wingers cry antifa it was always a right winger that ended up doing it.

Also narrator: because right wingers are, by and large, violent animals slavering at the mouth to kill more Americans, because 200,000 wasn't enough for them.

Bulldoze everything they love.


Is there any organized list of incidents by who was behind them?
 
2020-09-19 6:38:15 PM  

Tranquil Hegemony: Again I ask, what exactly should people opposed to fascism call themselves that won't hurt Republicans' feelings?


Democrats?
 
2020-09-19 6:39:34 PM  

Begoggle: Abox: vudukungfu: If you aren't a facist piece of shiat, why would you fear antifacists?

You might want to sit down for this but some have an overly broad definition of fascist.

That's why I almost always use the term "Republican".
It's indisputably accurate.
Unless we're talking about Libertarians.
Both parties are very fascist in 2020 America, though.
Your defense of them and denials is bullshiat.


I don't remember defending any Republicans.
 
2020-09-19 6:41:10 PM  

thorpe: tuxq: rjakobi: "This is all the fault of BLM and Antifa!  They're the real villains!"
"Are they?  Do you feel threatened by them?"
"Yes!  They're attacking everything I stand for!"
"Antifa stands for Anti-fascist.  Are you telling me you're a...fascist?"
"No, I'm American."
"Then you have nothing to worry about since they're only attacking hate groups, not normal Americans."
"But...but...Fox News says..."
"Fox News is a faceless organization funded by well-documented right winged sociopaths.  This has never been disputed and never will.  Maybe they're so worried about being attacked that you are feeling guilty by association, or maybe they're trying to make you implicit in their crimes by saying you are a target."
"But all of that fake news..."
"Who exactly is telling you it's fake?  Did you already take the time to fact-check or are you relying on a source that just tells you things you want to hear?"
"But...riots...and..."
"They were brought about because those in power prefer to cling to lies and want to take down as many of their followers with them as possible.  You are not a mindless sheep. You are a capable thinking person who can make rational decisions despite your pigmentation or gender or carnal preference.  Think for yourself."
"But..."
"THINK.  FOR.  YOURSELF."

Ok. Thinking for myself...and...
[Fark user image 425x596]

You might wanna brush up on history. Hive-mind reactions are predictable and so far the predictions have been correct.

[Fark user image 850x566]


didn't they all get COVID and shuffle off this mortal coil?
 
2020-09-19 6:58:18 PM  

neongoats: Narrator: anytime right wingers cry antifa it was always a right winger that ended up doing it.

Also narrator: because right wingers are, by and large, violent animals slavering at the mouth to kill more Americans, because 200,000 wasn't enough for them.

Bulldoze everything they love.


I've got the dozer but... there's nothing there
 
2020-09-19 7:03:46 PM  
Okay, so one of two things are happening:

1. Donny Boy is ordering the FBI and USA-centric intelligence agencies to lie about real threats;

2. The people involved in these agencies actually believe fw:fw:fw emails from your paranoid grandma.

I honestly don't know which is worse at this point. We're militarily active in key conflicts globally--if this spreads to the CIA or even your average Army grunt figuring out where the enemies are, we are so f*cked. Hell, this is making cops go after random citizens--we're already f*cked, we're just hopefully not going to nuke the planet on bad intel, or get nuked from bad intel.

Honestly, either scenario is horrifying. We're not the good guys, but if we go down, there's a hell of a power vaccuum, and we could take the majority of the planet down with us.

F*cking Trump. Can someone arrest his ass on grounds of deliberately harming our intelligence resources already?
 
2020-09-19 7:12:00 PM  

tuxq: Never thought I'd see people openly defending antifa. Kind of a sad state of affairs.

Oh well. I'll be back November 5th when Trump has won to see how you guys are coping.


So you assume everyone by default is a fascist. Since fascism is the conservative end state I shouldn't be surprised.
 
2020-09-19 7:12:06 PM  
I took a big dump today and it clogged the toilet. I blame QAnon.
 
2020-09-19 7:14:12 PM  

some_beer_drinker: don't tell anyone, but i am the antifa leader.


No, I'Mthe ANTIFA leader!
 
2020-09-19 7:15:12 PM  

Nick Nostril: I took a big dump today and it clogged the toilet. I blame QAnon.


QAnon IS the clog.
 
2020-09-19 7:26:44 PM  

bobbyjoebobby: A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.


Well, what do you mean by "real"?
Is professional wrestling "real"?
I mean, you can't actually dispute that it takes place in the world.
But what kind of "real" is it?
It is not only things that are real - concepts and ideas can be real. too.
But they can also be false - caveat emptor.
 
2020-09-19 7:28:29 PM  

Nick Nostril: I took a big dump today and it clogged the toilet. I blame QAnon.


Thanks. Qbama.
 
2020-09-19 7:54:03 PM  

dkulprit: Are you saying the antifascists caused the rise of hitler?


Small technicality: in Weimar Germany, the fascists and communists hated each other. However, they had the common goal of disrupting the system and bringing it down. The Nazi party never had a majority in the Reichstag, but they did when combined with the votes of the communists.

So, while antifa didn't cause Nazis, it did inadvertently help them win control of Germany. An argument can be made that some of the activity this year by people opposed to Trump does play into his hands.
 
2020-09-19 7:58:08 PM  

Begoggle: Or maybe.... "left" and "right" are meaningless terms.
And everyone should be against fascism.


Historically, conservatives have been quite chummy with fascist and semi-fascist governments (Italy, Germany, Spain, Portugal).

The core values of fascism - nationalism, sexism, racism - are conservative values. (Not all conservatives are sexist racist nationalists, but if you're a sexist racist nationalist you can't be a liberal.)
 
2020-09-19 8:03:31 PM  
The problem with police intelligence reports is that for every agency that does a credible job creating them from facts, there are two police departments and six sheriffs offices producing them based on that email that got forwarded to their Sheriff or an article some elderly detective nearing retirement saw on Fox News.
 
2020-09-19 8:04:29 PM  

bobbyjoebobby: A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.


Who is the leader of antifa?
 
2020-09-19 8:15:09 PM  

OptionC: bobbyjoebobby: A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.

Who is the leader of antifa?


Movements without leaders aren't real?
 
2020-09-19 8:36:58 PM  
Trying to please da Führer .
th.bing.comView Full Size
 
2020-09-19 8:39:40 PM  

g.fro: Antifa originated as the abbreviation of Antifaschistische Aktion, the armed, para-military wing of the KPD. It was founded in 1932 as the successor to the KPD's earlier para-military group, the Roter Frontkämpferbund or, RFB, which existed from 1924 to 1929. Antifa's main job was protecting KPD events, marching to support their candidates and intimidate others, and perhaps most importantly, fight pitched street battles with the Nazi's armed para-militaries, Sturmabteilung, aka the SA, the brownshirts, or stormtroopers. When they weren't fighting Nazis, they were fighting the Socialdemocrats (SPD) and their loosely affiliated Eiserne Front.Obviously after the NSDAP came to power, the KPD, antifa, and all other political groups were banned, and many members wound up in concentration camps.

The term antifa, or more usually anti-fascist, entered wider use by the Left, especially by the Comintern, during the Spanish Civil War. The Republican side was a conglomeration of political groups who only shared their opposition to the Nationalist rebels. Most, but not all of these groups were leftists of varying degrees of radicalism. As Italy and Germany increased their support for the Nationalists, the Republicans could only find support from the USSR. This diminished popular support for the Spanish Republic among the western public, so to downplay Moscow's near takeover of the Republican cause, the term anti-fascist was preferred.

After WWII, antifa continued to be term in common usage in Europe for a variety of Left-wing youth groups. These ranged from simple gangs who liked to get in street fights with racist punks and hooligans, to actual terrorist organizations funded and controlled by Moscow. After the Red Summer of 1968, the USSR toned down the armed terrorism, although some groups like the Rote Armee Fraktion(RAF) aka the Baader-Meinhof Group, or the Brigate Rossecontinued. Anti-fascist would continue on in Soviet parlance (for example in the official name of the Berlin Wall) but as glasnost became official policy, the term antifa became more and more associated with elements of the punk scene. It would occasionally be used to describe independent groups which considered themselves leftists dedicated to direct action, such as the Black Bloc, But was mostly passé. Until an actual fascist got elected President. All of a sudden the term "Antifa" gets thrown around, and when people who had never heard it before ask, "what does that mean?" they are told simply, "it means anti-fascist." And so, not knowing the term's history, they start using it, perhaps even to refer to themselves. And when someone points out it's actual, historical meaning, they reject it as counter-propaganda.


So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?
 
2020-09-19 8:45:30 PM  

iron de havilland: ...

So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?


Maybe use a different name?

Better yet, don't label yourself by what you are against, but by what you are for. I'm much more interested in working with people who want to support democracy rather than simply settle for anything that's not fascism.

Also, I don't care how much someone says they are against fascism if they aren't willing to shoot fascists in the face. That is the only way to deal with Nazis.
 
2020-09-19 8:47:50 PM  

g.fro: OptionC: bobbyjoebobby: A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.

Who is the leader of antifa?

Movements without leaders aren't real?


Without membership, leadership and hierarchy there is nothing which can be described as an organization.
 
2020-09-19 8:48:35 PM  
Antifa has gotten a real Emmanuel Goldstein vibe about it all.   Whether Antifa has historical reality has become irrelevant.   Any protest against existing power is now all part of a plot by Emmanuel Goldstein.
 
2020-09-19 8:53:30 PM  

OptionC: g.fro: OptionC: bobbyjoebobby: A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.

Who is the leader of antifa?

Movements without leaders aren't real?

Without membership, leadership and hierarchy there is nothing which can be described as an organization.


So then neither Occupy Wall Street nor Black Lives Matter exist(ed).
 
2020-09-19 9:00:48 PM  

g.fro: iron de havilland: ...

So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?

Maybe use a different name?

Better yet, don't label yourself by what you are against, but by what you are for. I'm much more interested in working with people who want to support democracy rather than simply settle for anything that's not fascism.

Also, I don't care how much someone says they are against fascism if they aren't willing to shoot fascists in the face. That is the only way to deal with Nazis.


thanks for your input
 
2020-09-19 9:02:49 PM  
You people are really hung up on these concepts of "existence" and of being "real".
But you don't seem to have satisfactorily defined them.
Ooops.
 
2020-09-19 9:03:34 PM  

g.fro: OptionC: g.fro: OptionC: bobbyjoebobby: A lot of people sure are invested in anftifa not being real.

Who is the leader of antifa?

Movements without leaders aren't real?

Without membership, leadership and hierarchy there is nothing which can be described as an organization.

So then neither Occupy Wall Street nor Black Lives Matter exist(ed).


BLM is an formal organization with leaders and everything.  They are an organization that does, in fact, exist.

I do not recall if OWS was formally organized or not, but sleeping in the park would not actually make somebody a member.
 
2020-09-19 9:04:37 PM  

g.fro: iron de havilland: ...

So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?

Maybe use a different name?

Better yet, don't label yourself by what you are against, but by what you are for. I'm much more interested in working with people who want to support democracy rather than simply settle for anything that's not fascism.

Also, I don't care how much someone says they are against fascism if they aren't willing to shoot fascists in the face. That is the only way to deal with Nazis.


Wow, you've got a lot of issues to work through.
 
2020-09-19 9:06:30 PM  

TrashcanMan: g.fro: iron de havilland: ...

So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?

Maybe use a different name?

Better yet, don't label yourself by what you are against, but by what you are for. I'm much more interested in working with people who want to support democracy rather than simply settle for anything that's not fascism.

Also, I don't care how much someone says they are against fascism if they aren't willing to shoot fascists in the face. That is the only way to deal with Nazis.

thanks for your input


You're welcome.
 
2020-09-19 9:07:41 PM  

iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: ...

So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?

Maybe use a different name?

Better yet, don't label yourself by what you are against, but by what you are for. I'm much more interested in working with people who want to support democracy rather than simply settle for anything that's not fascism.

Also, I don't care how much someone says they are against fascism if they aren't willing to shoot fascists in the face. That is the only way to deal with Nazis.

Wow, you've got a lot of issues to work through.


Why, because I believe in democracy?
 
2020-09-19 9:10:19 PM  

g.fro: iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: ...

So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?

Maybe use a different name?

Better yet, don't label yourself by what you are against, but by what you are for. I'm much more interested in working with people who want to support democracy rather than simply settle for anything that's not fascism.

Also, I don't care how much someone says they are against fascism if they aren't willing to shoot fascists in the face. That is the only way to deal with Nazis.

Wow, you've got a lot of issues to work through.

Why, because I believe in democracy?


You say that, but you're anti-antifascists, but you say you want to shoot fascists in the face.

figmentums.files.wordpress.comView Full Size
 
2020-09-19 9:22:40 PM  

iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: ...

So, because some unsavoury people have rallied under the banner of anti-fascism in the past, we shouldn't be anti-fascist today?

Maybe use a different name?

Better yet, don't label yourself by what you are against, but by what you are for. I'm much more interested in working with people who want to support democracy rather than simply settle for anything that's not fascism.

Also, I don't care how much someone says they are against fascism if they aren't willing to shoot fascists in the face. That is the only way to deal with Nazis.

Wow, you've got a lot of issues to work through.

Why, because I believe in democracy?

You say that, but you're anti-antifascists, but you say you want to shoot fascists in the face.

[figmentums.files.wordpress.com image 500x281]


I never said I was antantifascist. I just know their history, unlike apparently most of the internet.

Any sane person is against fascists. But as much as there has been gnashing of teeth since the rise of the alt-right, most people who call themselves antifa seem very reluctant to actually engage in direct action. Which is particularly ironic given that they have adopted the name of KPD streetfighters. Sure, they talk about punching Nazis in the face, and they go on about how the right-wing gun-nuts are a threat, but are any of them arming themselves? Well, some are, but they don't go around on line telling everyone how they're antifa.

The one thing which has been constant throughout the history of antifa in all its various permutations is that it has never been pro-democracy. So no, I'm not going to embrace the name of a movement which does not believe in democracy, even if we have the same enemies.

(Why does that sound familiar? I think I heard about a similar situation in history.)
 
2020-09-19 9:29:52 PM  

g.fro: The one thing which has been constant throughout the history of antifa in all its various permutations is that it has never been pro-democracy. So no, I'm not going to embrace the name of a movement which does not believe in democracy, even if we have the same enemies.


What does that mean for the pro-democracy Americans who either march under that banner, or have the label of antifa thrust upon them by a corrupt government right now?

Not true liberal democrats?

People trying to subvert the meaning of anti-fascism are more suspect, to me.
 
2020-09-19 9:37:36 PM  

iron de havilland: g.fro: The one thing which has been constant throughout the history of antifa in all its various permutations is that it has never been pro-democracy. So no, I'm not going to embrace the name of a movement which does not believe in democracy, even if we have the same enemies.

What does that mean for the pro-democracy Americans who either march under that banner, or have the label of antifa thrust upon them by a corrupt government right now?

Not true liberal democrats?

People trying to subvert the meaning of anti-fascism are more suspect, to me.


If they are having a label thrust upon them, they could try pushing back, instead of embracing it because they don't know what it means. If they do know what it means, and willingly adopt that banner, then they are not liberal democrats.

And I'm not sure which people you mean by "subverting the meaning" of the term. Are the people insisting it still means what it always meant, or the people trying to expand it to include everyone who is not a Trumpist, whether they want title or not, the ones subverting it?
 
2020-09-19 9:40:29 PM  

g.fro: iron de havilland: g.fro: The one thing which has been constant throughout the history of antifa in all its various permutations is that it has never been pro-democracy. So no, I'm not going to embrace the name of a movement which does not believe in democracy, even if we have the same enemies.

What does that mean for the pro-democracy Americans who either march under that banner, or have the label of antifa thrust upon them by a corrupt government right now?

Not true liberal democrats?

People trying to subvert the meaning of anti-fascism are more suspect, to me.

If they are having a label thrust upon them, they could try pushing back, instead of embracing it because they don't know what it means. If they do know what it means, and willingly adopt that banner, then they are not liberal democrats.

And I'm not sure which people you mean by "subverting the meaning" of the term. Are the people insisting it still means what it always meant, or the people trying to expand it to include everyone who is not a Trumpist, whether they want title or not, the ones subverting it?


There's nothing wrong with being an anti-fascist.
 
2020-09-19 9:51:38 PM  

iron de havilland: g.fro: iron de havilland: g.fro: The one thing which has been constant throughout the history of antifa in all its various permutations is that it has never been pro-democracy. So no, I'm not going to embrace the name of a movement which does not believe in democracy, even if we have the same enemies.

What does that mean for the pro-democracy Americans who either march under that banner, or have the label of antifa thrust upon them by a corrupt government right now?

Not true liberal democrats?

People trying to subvert the meaning of anti-fascism are more suspect, to me.

If they are having a label thrust upon them, they could try pushing back, instead of embracing it because they don't know what it means. If they do know what it means, and willingly adopt that banner, then they are not liberal democrats.

And I'm not sure which people you mean by "subverting the meaning" of the term. Are the people insisting it still means what it always meant, or the people trying to expand it to include everyone who is not a Trumpist, whether they want title or not, the ones subverting it?

There's nothing wrong with being an anti-fascist.


Did you not read the tome I posted above, or are you ignoring it?

Even if antifa did just mean anti-fascist (nevermind the fact Americans don't abbreviate things that way), would it be enough? During the Cold War, the USA supported any number of regimes which could only be called anti-communist. What can possibly be wrong with being anti-communist (I wonder why we never called them antico)? Well, ask just about any country in Latin America. Ask most of Southern Africa. The Rhodesians always thought they were the good guys because they were fighting Communists. But they were racist, fascist assholes. Every regime we supported in Southeast Asia; anti-communist, and in no way democratic.

Such is the case with antifa. They might be against fascism, but they are not for democracy. The fact they've gotten so many people to believe it just means anti-fascist just shows how effective the branding is.
 
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