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(NPR)   Well I guess that's one way to solve the Social Security dilemma   (npr.org) divider line
    More: Sick, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Nursing home, nursing homes, home residents, new COVID-19 infections, new guidance, family organizations, family members  
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6137 clicks; posted to Main » and Politics » on 18 Sep 2020 at 8:31 AM (4 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



30 Comments     (+0 »)
 
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2020-09-18 6:52:03 AM  
It's a GOP dream of long standing. Useless mouths and all that.
 
2020-09-18 8:33:00 AM  

OdradekRex: It's a GOP dream of long standing. Useless mouths and all that.


Only the ones who don't/can't vote for them.
 
2020-09-18 8:36:12 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-18 8:42:37 AM  
That's good news. What's the point of living if you can't see your loved ones?
 
2020-09-18 8:43:04 AM  
It's a more complex issue than a headline can convey. Already, thousands of people have spent their last few months confused and unable to get real contact from their family. Screens are not the same thing, and this is especially true for dementia patients. I'm thinking of my grandmother's last days, and it just would not a tenable situation to tell us that no one can visit. That she must live out the end of her life alone and descending into madness.

Obviously, the problem is that the risk/reward calculation for any one resident may tip towards visitation, but the way a care facility runs means that the risk is borne by all residents. Fast, reliable testing would be able to mitigate this issue.
 
2020-09-18 8:43:50 AM  

Deep Contact: That's good news. What's the point of living if you can't see your loved ones?


Clearly, you haven't met my loved ones.
 
2020-09-18 8:45:25 AM  
The $255 death benefit from Social Security will bankrupt the country and we'll have to sell all the college students to Russia.
 
2020-09-18 8:47:34 AM  

thurstonxhowell: It's a more complex issue than a headline can convey. Already, thousands of people have spent their last few months confused and unable to get real contact from their family. Screens are not the same thing, and this is especially true for dementia patients. I'm thinking of my grandmother's last days, and it just would not a tenable situation to tell us that no one can visit. That she must live out the end of her life alone and descending into madness.

Obviously, the problem is that the risk/reward calculation for any one resident may tip towards visitation, but the way a care facility runs means that the risk is borne by all residents. Fast, reliable testing would be able to mitigate this issue.


THIS.  My grandmother hasn't been visited by any of her relatives since I saw her in February.  It is extremely lonely.  They are just opening it up so I can see her (without my kids) outside with masks keeping 6 feet away. I am happy they are allowing this risk and she and I understand it completely.
 
2020-09-18 9:08:39 AM  

sleze: thurstonxhowell: It's a more complex issue than a headline can convey. Already, thousands of people have spent their last few months confused and unable to get real contact from their family. Screens are not the same thing, and this is especially true for dementia patients. I'm thinking of my grandmother's last days, and it just would not a tenable situation to tell us that no one can visit. That she must live out the end of her life alone and descending into madness.

Obviously, the problem is that the risk/reward calculation for any one resident may tip towards visitation, but the way a care facility runs means that the risk is borne by all residents. Fast, reliable testing would be able to mitigate this issue.

THIS.  My grandmother hasn't been visited by any of her relatives since I saw her in February.  It is extremely lonely.  They are just opening it up so I can see her (without my kids) outside with masks keeping 6 feet away. I am happy they are allowing this risk and she and I understand it completely.


Now, much of fark will assume you are an evil MAGAT who wants to kill your grandmother and old people in order to make Social Security last 2 more months.  From reading the article, it looks like a lot of precautions are being taken, it isn't like they just open the doors and let a bunch of strangers in.
 
2020-09-18 9:28:27 AM  
I get that your elderly relatives are sad and confused, but at least they are not dead.

There are thousands of people walking around today with no symptoms and oblivious to the threat they carry inside themselves. No temperature check or questionnaire is going to stop maybe just one person from visiting grandma and launching a chain reaction that wipes out a whole retirement complex.

As Paul Simon sung, "But it's alright, it's alright, for we live so well, so long". America has not faced this kind of crisis in even the memory of your grandparents.

The current situation sucks but it beats dying.
 
2020-09-18 9:33:19 AM  

OdradekRex: It's a GOP dream of long standing. Useless mouths and all that.


WRONG.  It's the Andrew Cuomo rule.
 
2020-09-18 9:33:20 AM  

minnesotaboy: I get that your elderly relatives are sad and confused, but at least they are not dead.

There are thousands of people walking around today with no symptoms and oblivious to the threat they carry inside themselves. No temperature check or questionnaire is going to stop maybe just one person from visiting grandma and launching a chain reaction that wipes out a whole retirement complex.

As Paul Simon sung, "But it's alright, it's alright, for we live so well, so long". America has not faced this kind of crisis in even the memory of your grandparents.

The current situation sucks but it beats dying.


Really, does it? If I was on my 90s with bad health and deteriorating mind, knowing that I had seen my loved ones for the last time, I would consider being forced to continue living in that state to be worse than death.
 
2020-09-18 9:39:10 AM  
Well, hey - anything that will help reduce the number of recipients will help extend the fund, amirite?
 
2020-09-18 9:39:36 AM  

minnesotaboy: The current situation sucks but it beats dying.

thurstonxhowell: If I was on my 90s with bad health and deteriorating mind, knowing that I had seen my loved ones for the last time, I would consider being forced to continue living in that state to be worse than death.

The problems with using a pandemic for euthanasia are that it's A) unreliable (it might not kill you even if you want to die), B) indiscriminate (it might kill you even if you don't want to die), and C) weeks of unceasing agony.  I've heard from folks who got it that it feels like breathing shards of glass.

Dying beats a lot of problems for a those at the end of their days.  Unfortunately, most states still have some really backwards laws regarding end-of-life (basically you're not allowed to kill yourself and no one's allowed to help, so you slowly rot in misery until you expire).  BUT.  A motherfarking pandemic isn't the way to address that problem.

Thinning out our retirees with a virus that perforates the lungs like a submachine gun is gorram farking Stone Age barbarism.
 
2020-09-18 9:50:48 AM  
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2020-09-18 9:51:29 AM  
Cuomo already jammed all the olds together to die, might as well finish off the job. He's too busy banning darts to do it himself.

Really, whats the point of banning darts? Unless you are a complete a-hole, you don't share darts, and you don't stand next to someone that is shooting. Just have everyone use their own chalk, if corona can even live on chalk.
 
2020-09-18 10:02:17 AM  
I don't get the outrage on this one.  Nursing homes are still following strict social distancing guidelines, requiring masks and limiting the number of visitors per day.  They just are no longer banning visitors.  I don't get people who think it is more humane to keep elderly and mentally infirm indefinitely isolated from their families.
 
2020-09-18 10:10:28 AM  

Eightballjacket: sleze: thurstonxhowell: It's a more complex issue than a headline can convey. Already, thousands of people have spent their last few months confused and unable to get real contact from their family. Screens are not the same thing, and this is especially true for dementia patients. I'm thinking of my grandmother's last days, and it just would not a tenable situation to tell us that no one can visit. That she must live out the end of her life alone and descending into madness.

Obviously, the problem is that the risk/reward calculation for any one resident may tip towards visitation, but the way a care facility runs means that the risk is borne by all residents. Fast, reliable testing would be able to mitigate this issue.

THIS.  My grandmother hasn't been visited by any of her relatives since I saw her in February.  It is extremely lonely.  They are just opening it up so I can see her (without my kids) outside with masks keeping 6 feet away. I am happy they are allowing this risk and she and I understand it completely.

Now, much of fark will assume you are an evil MAGAT who wants to kill your grandmother and old people in order to make Social Security last 2 more months.  From reading the article, it looks like a lot of precautions are being taken, it isn't like they just open the doors and let a bunch of strangers in.


Thank you.  I am all for social distancing, masks and keeping things closed that don't make any sense (movie theaters, sporting events, in-person schools, etc).  Because we follow the rules, we think our probability of getting infected is very low.  Following the rules of the nursing home should lower that probability to getting to my grandmother even lower.
 
2020-09-18 10:23:30 AM  

dragonchild: minnesotaboy: The current situation sucks but it beats dying.
thurstonxhowell: If I was on my 90s with bad health and deteriorating mind, knowing that I had seen my loved ones for the last time, I would consider being forced to continue living in that state to be worse than death.
The problems with using a pandemic for euthanasia are that it's A) unreliable (it might not kill you even if you want to die), B) indiscriminate (it might kill you even if you don't want to die), and C) weeks of unceasing agony.  I've heard from folks who got it that it feels like breathing shards of glass.

Dying beats a lot of problems for a those at the end of their days.  Unfortunately, most states still have some really backwards laws regarding end-of-life (basically you're not allowed to kill yourself and no one's allowed to help, so you slowly rot in misery until you expire).  BUT.  A motherfarking pandemic isn't the way to address that problem.

Thinning out our retirees with a virus that perforates the lungs like a submachine gun is gorram farking Stone Age barbarism.


WTF are you talking about? It's definitely not what anyone else is talking about.
 
2020-09-18 10:32:52 AM  
And this is where the conspiracy nutters show their real self.

Where is the talk about how the govt wants to have covid kill off the retirees in order  to basiaclly "fix" the social security problem of running out of funds to pay all the obligations.

I mean that's an easy and obvious one to go for and yet that's not really in the mainstream conspiracy nutter sphere.

They may come off like total nut jobs, which to be sure they are. but that's not the same as being an irratinla idiot that does not know how to push their agenda consistently and that some easy and obvious conspiracies to have are explicitly ignored.


I'm not even a believer in that junk but Trump and the average GOP politician  just figuring the best easy plan is leverage the pandemic and get them to die off en mass fast, don't at all seem a stretch to me to believe in actually.
 
2020-09-18 11:01:16 AM  
I haven't seen my whole family since January, saw my sister in May for her birthday but stayed outside and talked for a few hours. Her new puppy sucked at social distancing, but I let it slide because he is cute. I am going to my brothers on the 26th and got into an argument with my SiL, I am not going in and we can hang out on the porch and thats about it. She wasn't happy about that but I am trying to keep them safe since I have been around more people the past few weeks. She should know better anyways since she works in a dentist office and has to suit up like she is going on a spacewalk.
 
2020-09-18 11:11:44 AM  
There are lots of situations that arise from covid risk that simply have no good solutions.  This is another one of them.
 
2020-09-18 11:17:44 AM  

groppet: I haven't seen my whole family since January, saw my sister in May for her birthday but stayed outside and talked for a few hours. Her new puppy sucked at social distancing, but I let it slide because he is cute. I am going to my brothers on the 26th and got into an argument with my SiL, I am not going in and we can hang out on the porch and thats about it. She wasn't happy about that but I am trying to keep them safe since I have been around more people the past few weeks. She should know better anyways since she works in a dentist office and has to suit up like she is going on a spacewalk.


It seems as though nurses, dental assistants, etc. are not universally a good source of germ transmission knowledge. I can't decide that if it's because the management makes them be suited up all day at work and are just over it when they're off the job, or if they know they're at more risk at work and don't think it's as risky when they're not, or what.
 
2020-09-18 12:27:12 PM  

JuggleGeek: There are lots of situations that arise from covid risk that simply have no good solutions.  This is another one of them.


It's like the cartoon with the elephant and the donkey and the broken vase.
Some things, once broken by stupid, lazy, uncaring assholes, cannot be fixed.
 
2020-09-18 12:31:02 PM  

pdieten: It seems as though nurses, dental assistants, etc. are not universally a good source of germ transmission knowledge. I can't decide that if it's because the management makes them be suited up all day at work and are just over it when they're off the job, or if they know they're at more risk at work and don't think it's as risky when they're not, or what.

I'd say neither.  Laypeople wildly conflate skill with understanding.  Nurses, and even to a large extent doctors, are essentially technicians.  Now, this isn't to understate how hard their jobs are.  When it comes to practicing medicine, a competent doctor needs a crapton of know-how.  The human body is a weird, complex thing, and knowing all the various symptoms to various conditions and the various medications. . . seriously, the good ones really know what they're doing.

But the rub is what they're doing.  Their skills are developed from literature that was researched, written, edited, reviewed, compiled, and then standardized by other people.  They take these piles of muchly words and turn them into useful practice of medicine.  There are a number of doctors who bridge the gap between research and patient care, but the majority have neither a voice nor a role in developing the procedures they rely on.  This was made no more clear than when COVID-19 hit, because at first those procedures hadn't been written.  The underlying research hadn't existed yet.

It's always dangerous to compare biology and technology but since a rather large share of Farkers are tech-heads, I'll compare the difference between nurses and scientists with that of a sysadmin and a mathematician.  Sysadmins are generally paid well to do skilled work, sure.  (If you're a business and you don't pay your sysadmins you are asking for pain.)  But their job is based on research other people have done, and others have peer reviewed, and still others applied, and then still more others invented devices to utilize, and then still more others who commoditized the tech, then wrote tech manuals & training for it, and finally we get to the folks who actually use this stuff.  Not every sysadmin has a Ph.d. in mathematical theory; in fact, the vast majority don't.

TL,DR:  What nurses do has jack and shiat to do with epidemiology.  They execute protocols and tasks that were written by other people.  That's not easy, but it's not a requirement that they understand the underlying research & theory that go into the various materials they study.  So, it doesn't surprise me at all that some nurses are derping as hard as any Trumper over this pandemic.  But I suspect they're a minority.  The ones I know are rightly terrified of this bug.
 
2020-09-18 12:51:57 PM  

Deep Contact: That's good news. What's the point of living if you can't see your loved ones?


Choose your poison:  Having Grandma die from the coronavirus, or have her die of mental deterioration caused by isolation.
 
2020-09-18 6:03:17 PM  

Deep Contact: That's good news. What's the point of living if you can't see your loved ones?


Outliving them so they get their grubby paws all over your stuff?
 
2020-09-18 6:30:37 PM  

thurstonxhowell: It's a more complex issue than a headline can convey. Already, thousands of people have spent their last few months confused and unable to get real contact from their family. Screens are not the same thing, and this is especially true for dementia patients. I'm thinking of my grandmother's last days, and it just would not a tenable situation to tell us that no one can visit. That she must live out the end of her life alone and descending into madness.

Obviously, the problem is that the risk/reward calculation for any one resident may tip towards visitation, but the way a care facility runs means that the risk is borne by all residents. Fast, reliable testing would be able to mitigate this issue.


My grandparents can't do anything like a Skype call or facetime.  One has nerve damage and can barely feed themselves (with those huge Good Grips utensils, a bib, and help), and the other is blind.  Both think smartphones are completely unusable without an assistant, and still complain how "Siri never does what I tell her to".  Without visitation, it would be phone calls or nothing.  They have enough trouble with an old-fashioned desk phone.  I had to teach one of them how to ask Alexa to make calls, and even that rarely works for them.

That said, thankfully I managed to get them into a home that has had a precisely 0% resident infection rate for months.  They've had a few staff test positive every now and then, but they report it to us religiously, and their measures are working.

Unfortunately, now we only get 30 minutes, mandatory masks they won't stop complaining about and always outdoors (where you can't hear anything over the lawn mowers, everybody's hair is blown into their eyes, and the old folks are already cold at 70 degrees even in a sweater), every 2 weeks, with no touching allowed, ever.

I'll take it, but man, that vaccine can't get here soon enough.  If you can't hug a blind person, it's not any different than being on the phone, really.
 
2020-09-18 7:24:31 PM  
The problem elderly people face, whether in a home or not, is that they don't necessarily have time to "wait it out" until we get a vaccine.  My grandmother is seems convinced that she only has a few years left and she has had a lot of mobility issues crop up over the last 5 or so.  Asking her to spend months on end locked up in her house by herself is getting to be a bridge too far.  And now she can't even have the windows open because of all the damned smoke blowing up from the US wildfires.
 
2020-09-18 8:54:09 PM  
I always thought it was a Republican plot to reduce the payouts on Social Security....
 
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