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(WGAL 8)   That $1 million bail on 7 Lancaster PA protestors sure didn't last long. "It now is obvious to everybody that the $1 million bail that was set was not to serve justice but was set to punish,"   (wgal.com) divider line
    More: Followup, Bail, Judge, Lancaster, Lancashire, Magistrate, 29-year-old Lee Wise, Lancaster County judge, Lancaster Stands Up, fatal police shooting of Ricardo Munoz  
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3753 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Sep 2020 at 10:51 PM (6 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-09-17 7:10:13 PM  
The only way to make the bail system equal to all, is to deny it to all.
 
2020-09-17 8:14:34 PM  
Remember, saying "stand your ground" is terrorism and assault against peace officers.
 
2020-09-17 10:15:58 PM  
Being shot to death isn't punishment?
 
2020-09-17 10:23:30 PM  
The judge who set it originally:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-17 10:57:19 PM  
Grotesque overreach and abuse of power. Disbar those involved, put a lien on their property, auction off their goods, and give the proceeds to those needing redress. Farking ridiculous.
 
2020-09-17 10:59:31 PM  
But they did have to spend time in jail. So the original judge got what they wanted. And the judge will never be punished.
 
2020-09-17 11:01:26 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Grotesque overreach and abuse of power. Disbar those involved, put a lien on their property, auction off their goods, and give the proceeds to those needing redress. Farking ridiculous.


Totes radical
 
2020-09-17 11:02:06 PM  
"Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!
 
2020-09-17 11:09:02 PM  
Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.
 
2020-09-17 11:12:22 PM  

Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Grotesque overreach and abuse of power. Disbar those involved, put a lien on their property, auction off their goods, and give the proceeds to those needing redress. Farking ridiculous.


I'd also suggest burning the place down, but apparently that gets you arrested and jailed without trial against a $1m bond...
 
2020-09-17 11:20:13 PM  
Ric Romero is on the case!

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-17 11:27:37 PM  

untoldforce: "Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!


What do you mean, "OK, No problem"? Kyle Rittenhouse is sitting in jail under a $2 million bail.
 
2020-09-17 11:31:02 PM  

FarkingChas: But they did have to spend time in jail. So the original judge got what they wanted. And the judge will never be punished.


It is hard to punish or even remove judges in many places. There are many that have the low level ones, like the one who set this bail, that are elected, so they are politicized. The more important problem is that the DA, an elected position everywhere in the US, pushed for this bail and was OK with it when they got it. The DA being able to choose to charge people is supposed to be a check on the police so they can't just arrest anybody, but the courts assuming that all police testimony is always true and the DA being entirely focused on 100% win rates and being reliant on the police providing them with testimony in almost all cases, that check does not exist.

Here is an Idea for some police/criminal justice reform: the DA needs a way to sanction police that refuse to cooperate with their office. Like being able to revoke their commission if they keep refusing to testify/perjure/interfere with the DA's office. Removing qualified immunity while passing a law to require prosecution for felonies officers may have committed and recommending the max sentence if convicted (state level of federal oversight for DA offices to catch racism and looking out for throwing the case) would be another.

I am not saying these are good or workable ideas, I am just throwing them out there and asking for better ones.
 
2020-09-17 11:36:50 PM  
Why, is there systematic corruption and abuse in the legal system in the United States or something?
 
2020-09-17 11:39:06 PM  

Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.


It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers
 
2020-09-17 11:43:19 PM  

gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers


"while you draw or use one with a better measure"- what in God's name are you blathering about...

I know you totes learned some knife disarm at the dojo, but real world experience has taught that manics with biatch knives are dangerous and if they are running at you with the knife above their head the best recourse is to shoot them
 
2020-09-17 11:47:59 PM  

Fara Clark: The only way to make the bail system equal to all, is to deny it to all.


...what?
 
2020-09-18 12:06:34 AM  

dforkus: gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers

"while you draw or use one with a better measure"- what in God's name are you blathering about...

I know you totes learned some knife disarm at the dojo, but real world experience has taught that manics with biatch knives are dangerous and if they are running at you with the knife above their head the best recourse is to shoot them


gee if they only had a means of defense to nutralize someone in that situation like maybe a taser...farking kill them all mentality  86-45-11-03
 
2020-09-18 12:14:03 AM  
Unsecured bail tied to total financial worth is the best way to reform bail. You're worth $1Mil? $1Mil unsecured bail. Same thing for someone who has $200 to their name.

/All you have to do is show up in court.
//I'm a felon, I understand the system.
///Seriously, if you are respectful (even with out council), judges are usually ok with continuances*.
 
2020-09-18 12:22:47 AM  
*CSB: My all time favorite appearance before a judge.

Me: Your honor, I would like a continuance so I can find a new lawyer.
Judge: Why do you want a new lawyer?
Me: Your honor, I don't want a new lawyer, I need a new lawyer. My previous attorney has fled the country with a rather large sum of retainers' fees and I can't find him.
Judge to clerk: Attorney of record?
Clerk: *******************
Judge: Oh, him. Ok. Continuance granted, two months. Check with the court clerk for the exact date.
 
2020-09-18 12:23:01 AM  

dforkus: gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers

"while you draw or use one with a better measure"- what in God's name are you blathering about...

I know you totes learned some knife disarm at the dojo, but real world experience has taught that manics with biatch knives are dangerous and if they are running at you with the knife above their head the best recourse is to shoot them


No doj, and the concept of drawing a weapon out of a holster and then using it when charged isn't some foreign idea and is something you can and really should drill for. Measure, since you have no idea what you are talking about when referencing knife wielding people, is how far and fast a person can effectively (able to do damage that is more than superficial) reach with their ablity, how they are using a weapon,and with that weapon if they change how they are wielding it. If they charge you up close with a knife, yes, shoot them since lethal force should be met that way, but you shouldn't let the knife user get close enough where drawing you gun is the only option: stay back, they have a farking knife. Try and keep them distracted till you have a viable less than lethal option.

Why less than lethal? Because you have the option to not kill them in this standoff or let yourself, as a cop, get hurt at all, assuming the cop isn't stupid and gets close to them, trying to grab the knife. This move almost never works since a confronted, delusional person is going to be hyper vigilant (fight or flight response in people, AKA they WILL SEE YOU).

I don't know the circumstances of this death. I just know that the police need to be trained in better and more practical techniques.
 
2020-09-18 12:28:59 AM  

gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers


While I absolutely agree that police in this country need to be trained better, that they are trained to be too aggressive and that leads to too many situations that end with needless death because of it, thus isn't one of those cases. Shooting someone who is attacking you with a knife (immediately after threatening someone else with said knife) is absolutely a legitimate use of deadly force.

If anything, this cop should be commended for not also shooting four innocent bystanders.
 
2020-09-18 12:35:24 AM  
What goes "clip clop clip clop clip clop bang bang clip clop clip clop"?

A drive-by shooting in Lancaster.
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-09-18 12:37:59 AM  

Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

What do you mean, "OK, No problem"? Kyle Rittenhouse is sitting in jail under a $2 million bail.


Good. He's a killer.

Whom you admire. Your efforts in distorting facts to defend him are transparent and don't hide the fact that you admire him for killing people. Let me know if any of that was unclear.
 
2020-09-18 12:43:33 AM  

g.fro: While I absolutely agree that police in this country need to be trained better, that they are trained to be too aggressive and that leads to too many situations that end with needless death because of it, thus isn't one of those cases. Shooting someone who is attacking you with a knife (immediately after threatening someone else with said knife) is absolutely a legitimate use of deadly force.


This is a case of protestors being jailed on $1 million bond. Did you forget that? Here, I'll remind you.

From TFA:

"Kathryn Patterson and Taylor Enterline, both 20, were given $50,000 unsecured bail. That means they will be released and only have to pay if they fail to show up in court.

Prosecutors said others had higher culpability, including 29-year-old Lee Wise, 18-year-old Talia Gessner and 23-year-old Yoshua Montague. Gessner and Montague will have to put up some money to be released. Wise will be on house arrest.

Barry Jones, 30, and Dylan Davis, 28, also have unsecured bail but will be on house arrest.

Jamal Newman, 24, had a previous parole violation. His bail was reduced to $100,000, which must be paid in full to be released from prison.

T-Jay Fry, 28, must pay a full $25,000. Police said he had a bullhorn and was telling the crowd to "burn it down" and "stand your ground." He said he was arrested the next day, and it was a case of mistaken identity."
 
2020-09-18 12:52:12 AM  

thorpe: g.fro: While I absolutely agree that police in this country need to be trained better, that they are trained to be too aggressive and that leads to too many situations that end with needless death because of it, thus isn't one of those cases. Shooting someone who is attacking you with a knife (immediately after threatening someone else with said knife) is absolutely a legitimate use of deadly force.

This is a case of protestors being jailed on $1 million bond. Did you forget that? Here, I'll remind you.

From TFA:

"Kathryn Patterson and Taylor Enterline, both 20, were given $50,000 unsecured bail. That means they will be released and only have to pay if they fail to show up in court.

Prosecutors said others had higher culpability, including 29-year-old Lee Wise, 18-year-old Talia Gessner and 23-year-old Yoshua Montague. Gessner and Montague will have to put up some money to be released. Wise will be on house arrest.

Barry Jones, 30, and Dylan Davis, 28, also have unsecured bail but will be on house arrest.

Jamal Newman, 24, had a previous parole violation. His bail was reduced to $100,000, which must be paid in full to be released from prison.

T-Jay Fry, 28, must pay a full $25,000. Police said he had a bullhorn and was telling the crowd to "burn it down" and "stand your ground." He said he was arrested the next day, and it was a case of mistaken identity."


I was specifically replying to someone trying to criticize the precipitating event on b.s. tactical grounds. I wasn't addressing the bail issue at all. If you want to biatch at someone for threadjacking or whatever you're upset about, biatch to him.
 
2020-09-18 12:52:35 AM  

gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers


You are absolutely clueless.  Stop watching Kung fu movies.  They are not real.
 
2020-09-18 12:57:42 AM  

thorpe: Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

What do you mean, "OK, No problem"? Kyle Rittenhouse is sitting in jail under a $2 million bail.

Good. He's a killer.

Whom you admire. Your efforts in distorting facts to defend him are transparent and don't hide the fact that you admire him for killing people. Let me know if any of that was unclear.


The riots are responsible for more deaths than the police shootings. They are also responsible for millions in property damage, tons of people losing their livelihoods, etc. The rioters are domestic terrorists. They're marching through residential neighborhoods and threatening homeowners, demanding that people give them property and burning peoples' houses down.

There are reasons that bail is set high 1. It's a deterrent to crime. 2. Most people don't have access to the kind of money it would take to bail themselves out if it's relatively high. 3. More importantly than 2, if they can access the money somehow, they're less likely to bail jump because they, or a family member, has likely put up their personal property to get the person out of jail. 4. If the crime is serious enough to warrant a high bail, the person probably shouldn't be on the street in the interval between them being arrested and their appearance in court. They're a danger to society. 5. Poor people commit more crimes than rich people do. It's just a fact. If they can't pay their bail...good. We don't need these people getting out of jail easily and committing more crimes. I just saw a report last night about repeat offenders getting out of jail in places like CA, where they have eliminated cash bail. Guess what? They're getting out and committing more crimes. So, the bail system is fine. Is it discriminating against poor people? No. It is not discriminating against poor, law-abiding citizens. It's discriminating against poor criminals. That is a good thing. Like I said, they are committing most of the crimes. If a rich person commits a heinous crime, they still have to pay a ridiculous amount of money to get out of jail. $1 million isn't a drop in the bucket to most. If the person is really rich, and the crime is really heinous, it's likely that they will be held without bond. So, they can't get out either.

This part of the judicial system works fine and shouldn't be changed. IMO, the whole argument for defunding the police is ridiculous as well. You don't change an entire system based on the actions of a few bad actors. Are black people more likely to be killed by police? Yes, but they have more encounters with police. There are unarmed white people being killed by police too. It's under-reported because it doesn't fit the current political narrative, but you can find the cases easily by searching.
 
2020-09-18 12:58:34 AM  

thorpe: g.fro: While I absolutely agree that police in this country need to be trained better, that they are trained to be too aggressive and that leads to too many situations that end with needless death because of it, thus isn't one of those cases. Shooting someone who is attacking you with a knife (immediately after threatening someone else with said knife) is absolutely a legitimate use of deadly force.

This is a case of protestors being jailed on $1 million bond. Did you forget that? Here, I'll remind you.

From TFA:

"Kathryn Patterson and Taylor Enterline, both 20, were given $50,000 unsecured bail. That means they will be released and only have to pay if they fail to show up in court.

Prosecutors said others had higher culpability, including 29-year-old Lee Wise, 18-year-old Talia Gessner and 23-year-old Yoshua Montague. Gessner and Montague will have to put up some money to be released. Wise will be on house arrest.

Barry Jones, 30, and Dylan Davis, 28, also have unsecured bail but will be on house arrest.

Jamal Newman, 24, had a previous parole violation. His bail was reduced to $100,000, which must be paid in full to be released from prison.

T-Jay Fry, 28, must pay a full $25,000. Police said he had a bullhorn and was telling the crowd to "burn it down" and "stand your ground." He said he was arrested the next day, and it was a case of mistaken identity."


While the bail is too high, this is a case of rioters being jailed.  They may have been protesters at one point, but once you Fark one goat...
 
2020-09-18 1:06:46 AM  

Magnus: gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers

You are absolutely clueless.  Stop watching Kung fu movies.  They are not real.


I'm sorry, I can't hear trolls. Do you have a rational argument or are you going to continue to spout accusations?

\you don't know where the term measure is from, do you?
 
2020-09-18 1:06:51 AM  
No one is taking about the concept of bail on a thread based on an article about bail. When it diverges into funny territory, that's why I love Fark. When it does this? Just another flame message board.
 
2020-09-18 1:07:08 AM  

maggartron: thorpe: Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

What do you mean, "OK, No problem"? Kyle Rittenhouse is sitting in jail under a $2 million bail.

Good. He's a killer.

Whom you admire. Your efforts in distorting facts to defend him are transparent and don't hide the fact that you admire him for killing people. Let me know if any of that was unclear.

The riots are responsible for more deaths than the police shootings. They are also responsible for millions in property damage, tons of people losing their livelihoods, etc. The rioters are domestic terrorists. They're marching through residential neighborhoods and threatening homeowners, demanding that people give them property and burning peoples' houses down.

There are reasons that bail is set high 1. It's a deterrent to crime. 2. Most people don't have access to the kind of money it would take to bail themselves out if it's relatively high. 3. More importantly than 2, if they can access the money somehow, they're less likely to bail jump because they, or a family member, has likely put up their personal property to get the person out of jail. 4. If the crime is serious enough to warrant a high bail, the person probably shouldn't be on the street in the interval between them being arrested and their appearance in court. They're a danger to society. 5. Poor people commit more crimes than rich people do. It's just a fact. If they can't pay their bail...good. We don't need these people getting out of jail easily and committing more crimes. I just saw a report last night about repeat offenders getting out of jail in places like CA, where they have eliminated cash bail. Guess what? They're getting out and committing more crimes. So, the bail system is fine. Is it discriminating against poor people? No. It is not discriminating against poor, law-abiding citizens. It's discriminating against poor criminals. That is a good thing. Like I said, they are committing most of the crimes. If a rich person commits a heinous crime, they still have to pay a ridiculous amount of money to get out of jail. $1 million isn't a drop in the bucket to most. If the person is really rich, and the crime is really heinous, it's likely that they will be held without bond. So, they can't get out either.

This part of the judicial system works fine and shouldn't be changed. IMO, the whole argument for defunding the police is ridiculous as well. You don't change an entire system based on the actions of a few bad actors. Are black people more likely to be killed by police? Yes, but they have more encounters with police. There are unarmed white people being killed by police too. It's under-reported because it doesn't fit the current political narrative, but you can find the cases easily by searching.


You are incorrect about your description of the bail system, its purpose and how it works.

Simply put, bail is not meant to be deterrent to crime other than contempt of court.
 
2020-09-18 1:11:31 AM  

gozar_the_destroyer: Magnus: gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers

You are absolutely clueless.  Stop watching Kung fu movies.  They are not real.

I'm sorry, I can't hear trolls. Do you have a rational argument or are you going to continue to spout accusations?

\you don't know where the term measure is from, do you?


No accusation.  You are clueless about the dynamics of physical confrontations and use of force policies.

Not a troll either.  And nothing to debate.  You don't understand.
 
2020-09-18 1:20:39 AM  

maggartron: thorpe: Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

What do you mean, "OK, No problem"? Kyle Rittenhouse is sitting in jail under a $2 million bail.

Good. He's a killer.

Whom you admire. Your efforts in distorting facts to defend him are transparent and don't hide the fact that you admire him for killing people. Let me know if any of that was unclear.

The riots are responsible for more deaths than the police shootings. They are also responsible for millions in property damage, tons of people losing their livelihoods, etc. The rioters are domestic terrorists. They're marching through residential neighborhoods and threatening homeowners, demanding that people give them property and burning peoples' houses down.

There are reasons that bail is set high 1. It's a deterrent to crime. 2. Most people don't have access to the kind of money it would take to bail themselves out if it's relatively high. 3. More importantly than 2, if they can access the money somehow, they're less likely to bail jump because they, or a family member, has likely put up their personal property to get the person out of jail. 4. If the crime is serious enough to warrant a high bail, the person probably shouldn't be on the street in the interval between them being arrested and their appearance in court. They're a danger to society. 5. Poor people commit more crimes than rich people do. It's just a fact. If they can't pay their bail...good. We don't need these people getting out of jail easily and committing more crimes. I just saw a report last night about repeat offenders getting out of jail in places like CA, where they have eliminated cash bail. Guess what? They're getting out and committing more crimes. So, the bail system is fine. Is it discriminating against poor people? No. It is not discriminating against poor, law-abiding citizens. It's discriminating ag ...


Property is not life. A million dollars bail is the kind of amount that is assign to capital charges, like murder or predatory rape. Denial of bail if for when the defendant is possibly an immediate danger to human life or almost assured to flee prosecution. Bail is intended to only highly encourage arrival by the defendant at the remainder of court proceedings. It is supposed to be only a burden if they were to forfeit bail, not be unable to afford it.

Setting a million dollars here is saying that these accused people are as dangerous, likely to flee, and/or likely to re-offend as repeat/or highly violent criminals (this means those with a record of conviction) or the crime they are accused of is so heinous that the risk of granting bail is too dangerous for society. They are just accused of being part in a riot and arson. Is arson one of the charges too? If you think they are dangerous enough to warrant this bail, what was the charge to justify it?
 
2020-09-18 1:22:21 AM  
Magnus
You are incorrect about your description of the bail system, its purpose and how it works.

Simply put, bail is not meant to be deterrent to crime other than contempt of court.


I guess it's not a deterrent to anyone that is ignorant. If someone, like a repeat offender, knows that they're going to have to pay to get out of jail, they just might think twice about committing a crime. So, yes, it can be a deterrent to crime. I think that it's used as a means of keeping people in jail and putting pressure on them to appear at their scheduled court date, but that it also can serve as a deterrent.
 
2020-09-18 1:22:40 AM  

thorpe: Your efforts in distorting facts to defend him


Say what?
 
2020-09-18 1:29:30 AM  

gozar_the_destroyer: maggartron: thorpe: Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

What do you mean, "OK, No problem"? Kyle Rittenhouse is sitting in jail under a $2 million bail.

Good. He's a killer.

Whom you admire. Your efforts in distorting facts to defend him are transparent and don't hide the fact that you admire him for killing people. Let me know if any of that was unclear.

The riots are responsible for more deaths than the police shootings. They are also responsible for millions in property damage, tons of people losing their livelihoods, etc. The rioters are domestic terrorists. They're marching through residential neighborhoods and threatening homeowners, demanding that people give them property and burning peoples' houses down.

There are reasons that bail is set high 1. It's a deterrent to crime. 2. Most people don't have access to the kind of money it would take to bail themselves out if it's relatively high. 3. More importantly than 2, if they can access the money somehow, they're less likely to bail jump because they, or a family member, has likely put up their personal property to get the person out of jail. 4. If the crime is serious enough to warrant a high bail, the person probably shouldn't be on the street in the interval between them being arrested and their appearance in court. They're a danger to society. 5. Poor people commit more crimes than rich people do. It's just a fact. If they can't pay their bail...good. We don't need these people getting out of jail easily and committing more crimes. I just saw a report last night about repeat offenders getting out of jail in places like CA, where they have eliminated cash bail. Guess what? They're getting out and committing more crimes. So, the bail system is fine. Is it discriminating against poor people? No. It is not discriminating against poor, law-abiding citizens. It's discr ...


My opinion is that we are at a point with the rioting where people should be jailed. These people are basically terrorists. So, if they aren't going to bring in troops to guard property and keep the peace, then set an example by jailing these people and charging them with serious offences. What they are doing warrants them being charged with a serious crime. A million dollars doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I don't want them coming to my house to destroy my property, or to possibly kill me. They're a danger to society.
 
2020-09-18 1:43:45 AM  

maggartron: Magnus
You are incorrect about your description of the bail system, its purpose and how it works.

Simply put, bail is not meant to be deterrent to crime other than contempt of court.

I guess it's not a deterrent to anyone that is ignorant. If someone, like a repeat offender, knows that they're going to have to pay to get out of jail, they just might think twice about committing a crime. So, yes, it can be a deterrent to crime. I think that it's used as a means of keeping people in jail and putting pressure on them to appear at their scheduled court date, but that it also can serve as a deterrent.


You are wrong.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped​i​a/bail-getting-out-of-jail-30225.html

"The Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires that bail not be excessive. This means that bail should not be used primarily to raise money for the government; it's also not to be used to punish a person for being suspected of committing a crime. Remember: The primary purpose of bail is to allow the arrested person to remain free until convicted of a crime and at the same time ensure his or her return to court. "


Please be careful about using the term "ignorant".  And I hope you are not advocating illegal and unconstitutional "legislating from the bench" in your pursuit of law and order.  Imagine the unlawful and disorderly world we would be in if judges decided to be willfully ignorant of the Constitution.
 
2020-09-18 1:48:43 AM  

Magnus: gozar_the_destroyer: Magnus: gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers

You are absolutely clueless.  Stop watching Kung fu movies.  They are not real.

I'm sorry, I can't hear trolls. Do you have a rational argument or are you going to continue to spout accusations?

\you don't know where the term measure is from, do you?

No accusation.  You are clueless about the dynamics of physical confrontations and use of force policies.

Not a troll either.  And nothing to debate.  You don't understand.


Ok, what is your expertise then? Enlighten me on how the use of force metric was used here, how could be potentially changed to protect life more, the positioning choices made in the standoff, how they could be improved if possible, how other emergency services might have improved or worsened the outcome, and how body mechanic limitations of a person with a knife while charging effects the distance they can deliver a dangerous strike at including if it can be observer, countered, parried, or negated by the action of a defender or other officers in the area. Answering just one of these reasonably is enough, but your claimed expertise seems to indicate that you should be able to break each of these down.

I am not trying to argue with you. If I am wrong I am more than willing to admit it. I haven't just pulled these ideas out of my rectum. I've worked security. My older brother has worked security for his career and his experiences is where I draw many of my distances from (yes, he has had people come at him with knives and guns. The guns people got whatever they wanted since he was unarmed and not payed enough to argue with them). Both of my brothers have been in the military and one of them has seen combat. My ablity to spar with them is the same as when I was younger.

I brought up drilling because this is how you train to draw a weapon and use it when surprised as fast as possible. Being drilled in the task will make you incredibly fast at it while ignoring very stressful situations. This is why you drill and the military does drills. My father is retired State Patrol. I have never heard of training done by police for a knife wielding attacker charging them. Seems like it should be in there. My father hasn't either. I have seen firing drills with pistols and other weapons for multiple targets. I have seen training that promotes paranoia, encourages a willingness to kill that our armed forces aren't even given, and less oversight than fast food drive through for just every day patrols.

So please, share your knowledge with us.
 
2020-09-18 2:05:44 AM  

maggartron: gozar_the_destroyer: maggartron: thorpe: Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

What do you mean, "OK, No problem"? Kyle Rittenhouse is sitting in jail under a $2 million bail.

Good. He's a killer.

Whom you admire. Your efforts in distorting facts to defend him are transparent and don't hide the fact that you admire him for killing people. Let me know if any of that was unclear.

The riots are responsible for more deaths than the police shootings. They are also responsible for millions in property damage, tons of people losing their livelihoods, etc. The rioters are domestic terrorists. They're marching through residential neighborhoods and threatening homeowners, demanding that people give them property and burning peoples' houses down.

There are reasons that bail is set high 1. It's a deterrent to crime. 2. Most people don't have access to the kind of money it would take to bail themselves out if it's relatively high. 3. More importantly than 2, if they can access the money somehow, they're less likely to bail jump because they, or a family member, has likely put up their personal property to get the person out of jail. 4. If the crime is serious enough to warrant a high bail, the person probably shouldn't be on the street in the interval between them being arrested and their appearance in court. They're a danger to society. 5. Poor people commit more crimes than rich people do. It's just a fact. If they can't pay their bail...good. We don't need these people getting out of jail easily and committing more crimes. I just saw a report last night about repeat offenders getting out of jail in places like CA, where they have eliminated cash bail. Guess what? They're getting out and committing more crimes. So, the bail system is fine. Is it discriminating against poor people? No. It is not discriminating against poor, law-abiding ...


I could talk about the progression of grievances with you, but I think being more direct would be better. We are discussing the lack of attainable bail. If the court wanted to ensure the accused were kept in jail till trial for public safety, the only reason to keep them in jail, they should have denied bail. Setting values that no one that isn't rich can attain serves no reason than to keep the accused in jail.

Now, if you want to discus the severity of their crimes and their threat to the public good, I am sure we can start that, but you aren't going to like the studies, rational comparatives, ethical tests, and legal evaluations that will come out of it, at least based on your current comments.

\rioting is treason? Really? I thought it was rioting.
\\what would you if Obama had sent the police to kill whites at random all across the US?
 
2020-09-18 2:46:40 AM  

Magnus: maggartron: Magnus
You are incorrect about your description of the bail system, its purpose and how it works.

Simply put, bail is not meant to be deterrent to crime other than contempt of court.

I guess it's not a deterrent to anyone that is ignorant. If someone, like a repeat offender, knows that they're going to have to pay to get out of jail, they just might think twice about committing a crime. So, yes, it can be a deterrent to crime. I think that it's used as a means of keeping people in jail and putting pressure on them to appear at their scheduled court date, but that it also can serve as a deterrent.

You are wrong.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedi​a/bail-getting-out-of-jail-30225.html

"The Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires that bail not be excessive. This means that bail should not be used primarily to raise money for the government; it's also not to be used to punish a person for being suspected of committing a crime. Remember: The primary purpose of bail is to allow the arrested person to remain free until convicted of a crime and at the same time ensure his or her return to court. "


Please be careful about using the term "ignorant".  And I hope you are not advocating illegal and unconstitutional "legislating from the bench" in your pursuit of law and order.  Imagine the unlawful and disorderly world we would be in if judges decided to be willfully ignorant of the Constitution.


it's to allow them to remain free provided that they DID NOT COMMIT A SERIOUS CRIME. In this case they are accused of arson, among other things. It's not unconstitutional to set an extremely high amount for bail, or to deny it. It's not legislating from the bench lmao! What are they supposed to do?? They set some people free on PR bonds because they are not a danger to the community. It's really at the judge's discretion. There is no argument here.
 
2020-09-18 3:01:55 AM  

gozar_the_destroyer: maggartron: gozar_the_destroyer: maggartron: thorpe: Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand
I could talk about the progression of grievances with you, but I think being more direct would be better. We are discussing the lack of attainable bail. If the court wanted to ensure the accused were kept in jail till trial for public safety, the only reason to keep them in jail, they should have denied bail. Setting values that no one that isn't rich can attain serves no reason than to keep the accused in jail.

Now, if you want to discus the severity of their crimes and their threat to the public good, I am sure we can start that, but you aren't going to like the studies, rational comparatives, ethical tests, and legal evaluations that will come out of it, at least based on your current comments.

\rioting is treason? Really? I thought it was rioting.
\\what would you if Obama had sent the police to kill whites at random all across the US?


What do you mean by "progression of grievances"? It might not be unattainable for them to get out of jail on a 1 million dollar bond. If they did manage to get the money, it might ensure that they show up to court.

I don't need an analysis to know that they are the same types that have been destroying property in cities everywhere.

Is it treasonous to continue to riot and disrupt the local economy, waste police resources, put the public at risk, start fires everywhere, etc... I think that it is. We have the right to assemble peacefully.

I don't see where the police are killing people at random. I haven't seen any killings that weren't justified, with the exception of the Breonna Taylor death. However, that was an accident. I don't believe that George Floyd's death was due to being restrained. He had apparently eaten the drugs that he was carrying and he died from the overdose of Fentanyl. He was saying that he couldn't breathe before he was on the ground. It's all in the bodycam footage that was leaked.
 
2020-09-18 3:09:28 AM  

Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

What do you mean, "OK, No problem"? Kyle Rittenhouse is sitting in jail under a $2 million bail.


Kyle rittenhouse shot 3 people AND THEN FLED THE STATE.  If he didn't flee the state it wouldn't be so high.  Try to keep up now.

If any of these people fled the state, 1 million dollar bail would be warranted.  That's how this works.
 
2020-09-18 3:45:53 AM  

maggartron: gozar_the_destroyer: maggartron: gozar_the_destroyer: maggartron: thorpe: Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand
I could talk about the progression of grievances with you, but I think being more direct would be better. We are discussing the lack of attainable bail. If the court wanted to ensure the accused were kept in jail till trial for public safety, the only reason to keep them in jail, they should have denied bail. Setting values that no one that isn't rich can attain serves no reason than to keep the accused in jail.

Now, if you want to discus the severity of their crimes and their threat to the public good, I am sure we can start that, but you aren't going to like the studies, rational comparatives, ethical tests, and legal evaluations that will come out of it, at least based on your current comments.

\rioting is treason? Really? I thought it was rioting.
\\what would you if Obama had sent the police to kill whites at random all across the US?

What do you mean by "progression of grievances"? It might not be unattainable for them to get out of jail on a 1 million dollar bond. If they did manage to get the money, it might ensure that they show up to court.

I don't need an analysis to know that they are the same types that have been destroying property in cities everywhere.

Is it treasonous to continue to riot and disrupt the local economy, waste police resources, put the public at risk, start fires everywhere, etc... I think that it is. We have the right to assemble peacefully.

I don't see where the police are killing people at random. I haven't seen any killings that weren't justified, with the exception of the Breonna Taylor death. However, that was an accident. I don't believe that George Floyd's death was due to being restrained. He had apparently eaten the drugs that he was carrying and he died from the overdose of Fentanyl. He was saying that he couldn't breathe before he was on the ground. It's all in the bodycam footage that was leaked.



Wow, dial it back a bit comrade. Either you have been watching way too much Fox News or you are a just here to cause trouble. Your troll is weak, so it better be delusions you have or you are going to get eaten alive here on Fark.

Where does this whole treason thing come from? Nothing they have done has met the definition legally or even linguistically. You must be foreign so let me explain how it works here in the US and the EU. Treason, what you are accusing them of, is defined by federal law as:

"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

We, the US, have never executed anyone for treason. Heck, we have hardly ever charged anybody with it. They committed no crime that qualified as treason, even if they were guilty of everything they are charged with. They aren't as big of criminals as even somebody that commits burglary or armed robbery at that point. Bail is, by law, to be set to be relevant to the crime's severity and the likelihood of further public danger or the accused fleeing justice. So why the super high bail?

Judge's rulings are subject to appeal, review, and over ruling by higher courts in the US. Just like what happened here. They can't just do whatever they want. In fact, they even have sentencing guidelines that they have to follow. That's what happened here. They were overridden.

Again, what did they do to merit a bail worthy of a rich foreign person accused of murder that could easily flee the country or some one as dangerous as a serial rapist?

\fentanyl would have been in the toxicology report, BTW
\\any other crackpot theories?
 
2020-09-18 3:47:00 AM  

dkulprit: Alien Robot: untoldforce: "Stand your ground" and shoot people with a firearm? Okay, no problem.

Say "stand your ground" to unarmed people with a bullhorn? ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

What do you mean, "OK, No problem"? Kyle Rittenhouse is sitting in jail under a $2 million bail.

Kyle rittenhouse shot 3 people AND THEN FLED THE STATE.  If he didn't flee the state it wouldn't be so high.  Try to keep up now.

If any of these people fled the state, 1 million dollar bail would be warranted.  That's how this works.


So reconcile that with the "OK, no problem" statement. Did anyone say that? Did they let Rittenhouse go with no bail? Did they waive the charges? Seems like they deemed his shooting of two people with a firearm to be a "big f'ing problem" and set his bail accordingly which wholly contradicts the idea that they treated him as "OK, no problem" as was claimed.
 
2020-09-18 4:24:22 AM  

Magnus: gozar_the_destroyer: Magnus: gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers

You are absolutely clueless.  Stop watching Kung fu movies.  They are not real.

I'm sorry, I can't hear trolls. Do you have a rational argument or are you going to continue to spout accusations?

\you don't know where the term measure is from, do you?

No accusation.  You are clueless about the dynamics of physical confrontations and use of force policies.

Not a troll either.  And nothing to debate.  You don't understand.


Dynamics of physical altercations. That, right there is some grade A cop language. Let me put my point in some simple to read language that cops can read: when you face off with a knife holding person, don't stand close enough for them to reach you quickly so you can respond before they stab you. Error on the side of caution for the distance, they might be really fast. Can you pull it off every time? Maybe not, but at least try your best because missing with the first shot when you are to close gets very...staby.

The point is not to get into a situation where lethal force is the only option EVERY TIME and only train for when things come down to lethal force. Why do I say every time? It is because it is happening with far too much regularity across the nations on a weekly basis. The training the cops have doesn't work. It kills innocent people all the time, it doesn't reduce crime, or even prevent drug use. They have to do better or be replaced with something that does.

The people are tired of it. They have been polite. They have tried to vote it out. They have tried to protest it out (a month of non-violent ones before this which is unheard of since before the anti-Vietnam War protests and Civil Rights protests in the 60's). Next step is to get violent. It is illegal and pretty immoral, but that is where human behavior will go and no amount of tear gas or riot police is going to stop it. The violence is happening slowly, so we can still stop it. Much more violence and things start heading into military action.

Can it be done? Yes and there is training out there to do it and it is proven to be effective. Should you be ready to use lethal force to protect human life? Yes and cops should be trained to deal with both as split second decisions made by reflex, but the reflexes need to stop heading right for killing only. There are better tools.

\the whole US and Them mentality being removed would be a good step
\\everybody isn't out to kill the police, but at this rate that is going to change and we outnumber them and are smarter
 
2020-09-18 5:20:52 AM  
I award 10 internet to Gozar the Destroyer, 1 internet to Alien Robot and zero internet to Maggarton - May God have mercy on your soul.
 
2020-09-18 5:28:25 AM  
I thought the state's eliminated a cash bail system.
 
2020-09-18 5:40:52 AM  

gozar_the_destroyer: Marshmallow Jones: Starting a trendy riot didn't work out so well there I guess.  Tough to protest a guy shot while trying to kill a cop with a big ass knife.

It isn't hard to keep a person with a knife out of measure while you draw or use one with a better measure and disabling enough to make them drop or be neutralized enough for you to easily avoid their attacks. This whole thing just highlights the real problem with police: they are trained wrong. That training is paid for by local government, so if it promotes racism, that is a problem, but the whole 'KILL or be KILLED' training and other militarization training are definitely not working to reduce crime and causing some of the problems. The lack of local, federal or, (many times) enforced state standards and oversight in policing are another.

\this won't get fixed at the local level
\\we need some form of national level, including looking at the federal agents and officers


Every firearms training program in existence teaches that a person with a blade within 21 feet is a lethal threat.

Police, military, civilian. local. state, and federal, everyone teaches that.  And I've seen the drills even with season veterans.  If someone is within that distance with a knife you are going to get cut or killed if they decide to attack you.  Human reaction times are simply not that fast.
 
2020-09-18 6:06:56 AM  

puffy999: Remember, saying "stand your ground" is terrorism and assault against peace officers.


No.
 
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