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(Politico)   Politico goes to the "WOW" counties around Milwaukee to get a feel about the election. Come for the pearl clutching "there are BLM & rainbow flags now", then leave when the dogwhistles irritate your tinnitus   (politico.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Democracy, Voting, Republican Party, Democratic Party, Joe Biden, United States presidential election, 2008, fewest people, suburbs of rich white people  
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1854 clicks; posted to Politics » on 17 Sep 2020 at 5:02 PM (10 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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2020-09-17 1:50:50 PM  
I live in the WOW counties (Waukesha), and I have a Biden sign in my yard. It's different here than last time. There's still plenty of Republican support here, but for the first time in my memory, there's actual pushback and signs of blue.
 
2020-09-17 2:07:12 PM  
They couldn't find a rural diner in deep red Trump country?
 
2020-09-17 2:29:44 PM  
It's fairly telling how sheltered and out of touch your life is if Abortion is your #1 issue.
 
2020-09-17 3:17:11 PM  
"Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?
 
2020-09-17 4:39:13 PM  

Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?


Someone should tell that pud what a hysterectomy is, what the Trump administration has been doing to immigrant women, and then using pro lifer math, where every egg in each of those women is an abortion, to show him how many abortions Trump has used his tax dollars to fund. You shouldn't have to explain the horror of the last part, but Jeff is a special kind of dense.
 
2020-09-17 5:07:56 PM  

Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?


"If you're against abortion but don't support sex ed, family planning and counseling, community programs and schooling, all of which together prevent the situation of wanting an abortion in the first place, you're admitting you never actually cared about the babies."
 
2020-09-17 5:08:27 PM  
I used to live in Bayside Wisconsin. That is the model for rich suburbs in the Milwaukee area. Jews, blacks, whites, Russians, Polish, etc... Most diverse area I have ever lived in.

/ for whatever reason there were a ton of coyotes. One even ran off with a kid.
 
2020-09-17 5:09:14 PM  

Private_Citizen: I live in the WOW counties (Waukesha), and I have a Biden sign in my yard. It's different here than last time. There's still plenty of Republican support here, but for the first time in my memory, there's actual pushback and signs of blue.


Ozaukee still derp Trump house-sizes signs everywhere
 
2020-09-17 5:10:35 PM  

Private_Citizen: I live in the WOW counties (Waukesha), and I have a Biden sign in my yard. It's different here than last time. There's still plenty of Republican support here, but for the first time in my memory, there's actual pushback and signs of blue.


So only 95 % of registered voters will vote republican instead of the usual 105% in waukesha?
 
2020-09-17 5:10:36 PM  

LovesToSpooge: I used to live in Bayside Wisconsin. That is the model for rich suburbs in the Milwaukee area. Jews, blacks, whites, Russians, Polish, etc... Most diverse area I have ever lived in.

/ for whatever reason there were a ton of coyotes. One even ran off with a kid.


I currently live in Glendale. Still tons of coyotes.
 
2020-09-17 5:14:09 PM  
They use the word catholic more than "democrat" or "republican"
 
2020-09-17 5:14:23 PM  

Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?



Give women information on and access to birth control, provide a safety net that truly reduces the anxiety of having a child, stop shaming women who get pregnant outside of marriage... and so on. There are like a million little things that can be done so that very few women ever have to make that choice. Republicans are for none of those things. Given the number of variables, it will be impossible to get all women, in perpetuity, and not end up with some that have an unwanted pregnancy or some other reason for ending up feeling like having an abortion is the right choice for them. But we sure as fark could do so much to make those instances so rare by being smart, empathetic and compassionate--all things that republicans reject. Their solution is to make it illegal because that will totes fix everything.
 
2020-09-17 5:15:16 PM  

LarryDan43: Private_Citizen: I live in the WOW counties (Waukesha), and I have a Biden sign in my yard. It's different here than last time. There's still plenty of Republican support here, but for the first time in my memory, there's actual pushback and signs of blue.

So only 95 % of registered voters will vote republican instead of the usual 105% in waukesha?


I would cast a vote for Mysterious Laptop 2020, but it always puts 5000 votes as Republican.
 
2020-09-17 5:18:33 PM  
I will never understand the eagerness of journalists to find the crackiest cracker around and shove a mic in their face to get the "unvarnished view from a regular person". Those are not "regular people" or "average Americans", they're a demographic backwater that has far too much political power and far too little value to society.
 
2020-09-17 5:20:21 PM  

Private_Citizen: I live in the WOW counties (Waukesha), and I have a Biden sign in my yard. It's different here than last time. There's still plenty of Republican support here, but for the first time in my memory, there's actual pushback and signs of blue.


There was always signs of blue.  But when I lived there it mostly those of us closer to 'downtown'. And the DPW in Waukesha was more or less useless.
/was by banting/horning.
 
2020-09-17 5:20:55 PM  
Every Owen Wilson Wow In Chronological Order
Youtube dn5Tattkj_E
 
2020-09-17 5:23:08 PM  
Oh boy, the doublethinking from the Jim in the middle of the safari sounds familiar. It's the kind of person who usually believes the first thing they hear no matter how it conflicts with their previous knowledge and beliefs, and once they believe it, you can never change their mind on it. So they end up a hodgepodge of conflicting beliefs and see absolutely no problem with it, and get angry if you point it out, believing that you're lying to them when you say they're contradicting themselves.
 
2020-09-17 5:23:18 PM  
FTFA:"There's a big change occurring here. People want to get out of places like Chicagoland and Milwaukee and come up this way for the better schools, the safe communities, and really, with Covid, more space to work from home," Jeff said.

Hokay Jon Jones.

When I was evaluating where to move this past year, I refused to move north or west. The absolute cognitive dissonance in those regions relative to Milwaukee is absolutely staggering. We commonly joke about the Stallis dimension, but Christ the northern/western Milwaukee suburbs are on a completely different level of disconnection from reality.
 
2020-09-17 5:24:33 PM  

kbronsito: Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?


Give women information on and access to birth control, provide a safety net that truly reduces the anxiety of having a child, stop shaming women who get pregnant outside of marriage... and so on. There are like a million little things that can be done so that very few women ever have to make that choice. Republicans are for none of those things. Given the number of variables, it will be impossible to get all women, in perpetuity, and not end up with some that have an unwanted pregnancy or some other reason for ending up feeling like having an abortion is the right choice for them. But we sure as fark could do so much to make those instances so rare by being smart, empathetic and compassionate--all things that republicans reject. Their solution is to make it illegal because that will totes fix everything.


No no no if you outlaw abortions then people will stop having them. Seriously people actually believe that load of horse shiat.
 
2020-09-17 5:26:00 PM  
Those poor people.

Thinking for yourself is just SO HARD.
 
2020-09-17 5:26:00 PM  

kbronsito: Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?


Give women information on and access to birth control, provide a safety net that truly reduces the anxiety of having a child, stop shaming women who get pregnant outside of marriage... and so on. There are like a million little things that can be done so that very few women ever have to make that choice. Republicans are for none of those things. Given the number of variables, it will be impossible to get all women, in perpetuity, and not end up with some that have an unwanted pregnancy or some other reason for ending up feeling like having an abortion is the right choice for them. But we sure as fark could do so much to make those instances so rare by being smart, empathetic and compassionate--all things that republicans reject. Their solution is to make it illegal because that will totes fix everything.


Instead the Republicans would rather make it easier for women to anonymously give their babies to an already overburdened and underfunded foster care system, as they have done in every state with a baby dropbox.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/states-a​d​opt-baby-boxes-in-effort-to-protect-un​wanted-infants-11565861402
 
2020-09-17 5:27:58 PM  
(fart noise) Nah.
 
2020-09-17 5:28:24 PM  

FrancoFile: They use the word catholic more than "democrat" or "republican"


Which equals anti-abortion which equals "vote for any Republican".  The whole area seems to be full of single issue anti-abortion voters.  There's nothing to gain here, move on.
 
2020-09-17 5:28:44 PM  
I have a farmer cousin, has a nice farm in Mosinee/Knowlton.
He just texted me that the orange shiatgibbon is flying into Mosinee for a rally.
Says it looks like tailgate time at a Packers game. Lotsa folks selling MAGA crap.
My cousin is NOT  a trumper. He shakes his head and wonders how so many of his neighbors can be so gotdamn broken.
 
2020-09-17 5:30:14 PM  

Private_Citizen: I live in the WOW counties (Waukesha), and I have a Biden sign in my yard. It's different here than last time. There's still plenty of Republican support here, but for the first time in my memory, there's actual pushback and signs of blue.


I lived in Brookfield for many years. Very nice and comfortable place to live.

Friendly neighbors, nice people - - But they kept electing Sensenbrenner to congress. So the truth came out every two years.
 
2020-09-17 5:30:33 PM  

t3knomanser: I will never understand the eagerness of journalists to find the crackiest cracker around and shove a mic in their face to get the "unvarnished view from a regular person". Those are not "regular people" or "average Americans", they're a demographic backwater that has far too much political power and far too little value to society.


The print media has spent a lot of time over the last four years "trying to understand" Trump voters so everyone can sympathize with them.  Why doesn't anyone ever ask Trump voters to sympathize with the other 60% of the country?
 
2020-09-17 5:33:31 PM  
How can a pro-life voter support the guy who did nothing while so many Americans caught COVID and died?
 
2020-09-17 5:36:11 PM  

t3knomanser: I will never understand the eagerness of journalists to find the crackiest cracker around and shove a mic in their face to get the "unvarnished view from a regular person". Those are not "regular people" or "average Americans", they're a demographic backwater that has far too much political power and far too little value to society.


I just wish one of them would ask me, since I'm a balding, middle-aged, tattooed white dude. I'm like the poster boy for whiteness. And I'm also to the left of Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and think we could use more younger people like AOC in both the House and Senate to help shift the center in American politics away from the fringe right chucklefarkery that has dominated American politics for too long, with the Tea Party rise being when the cancer metastasized from stage 3 anal cancer to stage 4 systemic.
 
2020-09-17 5:39:13 PM  

aaronx: How can a pro-life voter support the guy who did nothing while so many Americans caught COVID and died?


Because they aren't really "pro-life".  They are "anti-abortion", and that's it.
 
2020-09-17 5:39:26 PM  

Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?


This discussion will never go anywhere unless people try to see things from other points of view.

If you start with the idea that fetuses are people, same as any one of us - - then how is legal abortion NOT the biggest atrocity of modern history? If the law permitted parents to kill their kids until age 5 (or whatever), would we not hold our nose and vote for Trump if that would make it stop?  Would we not be morally obligated to do so?

"Don't have an abortion if you don't like abortions" fundamentally misses the point of the issue.

The only way abortion is not morally equivalent to mass murder is if futuses are not "people," morally speaking. Which is the real issue.
 
2020-09-17 5:40:53 PM  
"He's taken a business approach to the job. He'll always get criticized for that, because people don't understand business," Loomis said. "Like, right now for example, he's getting criticized for underplaying the threat of Covid. But he did that to prevent mass panic. Any leader of any Fortune 500 company would do the same thing. What would have happened if he'd come out, hair on fire, yelling and screaming about it?"

And if you are the CEO of a publicly traded corporation and hide and lie about material issues that could negatively affect your stock price, you will be sent to jail.
 
2020-09-17 5:41:52 PM  

Rambino: Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?

This discussion will never go anywhere unless people try to see things from other points of view.

If you start with the idea that fetuses are people, same as any one of us - - then how is legal abortion NOT the biggest atrocity of modern history? If the law permitted parents to kill their kids until age 5 (or whatever), would we not hold our nose and vote for Trump if that would make it stop?  Would we not be morally obligated to do so?

"Don't have an abortion if you don't like abortions" fundamentally misses the point of the issue.

The only way abortion is not morally equivalent to mass murder is if futuses are not "people," morally speaking. Which is the real issue.


They aren't.
 
2020-09-17 5:42:09 PM  
I used to live in Milwaukee and commuted 30 minutes to a suburban school district... I listened to NPR on my commute.  There were two NPR stations that I could listen to, one was the normal everyday NPR, the other was almost entirely (when I was listening on my drive) a call-in comment station.

The call in station was farking crazy, I can't remember the station #, it's been over ten years.  However, it was like one of the Parks and Recreation public forums but on the radio.  A person would start out saying something sensible and then just go down the crazy rabbit hole.  It was so weird.  People would call in and say something like:  "Our schools should improve, but the squirrels are bugging my phone for the aliens."

I'm back in Indiana, and while I have no doubt we have a similar number of crazies, Wisconsinites seemed.... I dunno, more passionate about their crazy?
 
2020-09-17 5:44:49 PM  

manunkind: t3knomanser: I will never understand the eagerness of journalists to find the crackiest cracker around and shove a mic in their face to get the "unvarnished view from a regular person". Those are not "regular people" or "average Americans", they're a demographic backwater that has far too much political power and far too little value to society.

I just wish one of them would ask me, since I'm a balding, middle-aged, tattooed white dude. I'm like the poster boy for whiteness. And I'm also to the left of Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and think we could use more younger people like AOC in both the House and Senate to help shift the center in American politics away from the fringe right chucklefarkery that has dominated American politics for too long, with the Tea Party rise being when the cancer metastasized from stage 3 anal cancer to stage 4 systemic.


My neighborhood is pretty much all white retired or nearly retired folks. I'm an army vet in my 30's with a full machine shop (including full blacksmithing setup) adjacent to my house in full view of the street. Up until about a year ago I was on pretty good terms with half the old white retired men in this neighborhood, they would show up two at a time to look at what I was doing in my shop and talk about the trades, Vietnam, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and so forth.

What's happened a year ago? I had the nerve to put up a pride flag (under my Cascadia flag,) and a pro BLM sign. I'm actually fine with not having them come around, it was distracting but I have to marvel at what they must think about me and the other young folks in the area who almost to a person are liberal.
 
2020-09-17 5:53:14 PM  

aaronx: How can a pro-life voter support the guy who did nothing while so many Americans caught COVID and died?


Maybe because "pro-life" literally only means "anti-abortion". It's been that way as long as abortion has been an issue.

These people don't care about covid deaths, unless those who died were getting abortions.
 
2020-09-17 5:54:31 PM  

Rambino: Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?

This discussion will never go anywhere unless people try to see things from other points of view.

If you start with the idea that fetuses are people, same as any one of us - - then how is legal abortion NOT the biggest atrocity of modern history? If the law permitted parents to kill their kids until age 5 (or whatever), would we not hold our nose and vote for Trump if that would make it stop?  Would we not be morally obligated to do so?

"Don't have an abortion if you don't like abortions" fundamentally misses the point of the issue.

The only way abortion is not morally equivalent to mass murder is if futuses are not "people," morally speaking. Which is the real issue.


Yeah I was in that camp once.
The real issue is the right of a woman to be in charge of her own body. No man has to be under the same sort of scrutiny as women do when it comes to reproductive rights.
 
2020-09-17 6:06:42 PM  

Private_Citizen: I live in the WOW counties (Waukesha), and I have a Biden sign in my yard. It's different here than last time. There's still plenty of Republican support here, but for the first time in my memory, there's actual pushback and signs of blue.


This is how it is in my rural Trumper county in PA. There are still just as many (if not more) Trump signs, but now I actually see a few Biden signs, including a huge one on a porch next door to the guy who's had Trump 2020 signs on his truck since 2017.
 
2020-09-17 6:09:53 PM  
I'd call Cedarburg a lot of things, idyllic isn't one of them at all.
 
2020-09-17 6:24:14 PM  

kidgenius: "He's taken a business approach to the job. He'll always get criticized for that, because people don't understand business," Loomis said. "Like, right now for example, he's getting criticized for underplaying the threat of Covid. But he did that to prevent mass panic. Any leader of any Fortune 500 company would do the same thing. What would have happened if he'd come out, hair on fire, yelling and screaming about it?"

And if you are the CEO of a publicly traded corporation and hide and lie about material issues that could negatively affect your stock price, you will be sent to jail.


akcpetinsurance.comView Full Size

*looks at Wall Street*

Since when?
 
2020-09-17 6:28:43 PM  
Old and busted: Cletus Safari
New hotness: Karen Expedition
 
2020-09-17 6:42:27 PM  

kidgenius: Rambino: Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?

This discussion will never go anywhere unless people try to see things from other points of view.

If you start with the idea that fetuses are people, same as any one of us - - then how is legal abortion NOT the biggest atrocity of modern history? If the law permitted parents to kill their kids until age 5 (or whatever), would we not hold our nose and vote for Trump if that would make it stop?  Would we not be morally obligated to do so?

"Don't have an abortion if you don't like abortions" fundamentally misses the point of the issue.

The only way abortion is not morally equivalent to mass murder is if futuses are not "people," morally speaking. Which is the real issue.

They aren't.


So here's the thing. I report, you decide.

Lots of people who aren't angsty nihilists turn to religion for an answer to the question "Why am I here?" The answer is that God wants you here. That's enough of an answer sometimes. That's done by inspiring your parents to get busy. If you don't do what you can to deliver that child, you are thwarting God's will.

I mean, let's be honest, you wouldn't find it too inspiring to find out that the only reason your mother carried you to term is that she couldn't get an abortion, would you? (Again, assuming you are not an angsty nihilist.)

So if you think this way, rather than just accepting that we are all flukes of the universe with no right to be here, you'd almost have to be anti-abortion, wouldn't you?

The problem we're having is that people are insistent on writing this into law instead of just expecting church members to follow the church's orders. Personally I find abortion kind of sad, but I also can't see how it could be outlawed in the US, since this is essentially a religious tenet with no state interest in forcing women to carry to term; and since I'm a guy, it just makes no damn difference what I think.
 
2020-09-17 6:51:42 PM  
"That's why I'm not voting," she said. "I'm focused on things I can control."

This is why we can't have nice things
 
2020-09-17 6:58:01 PM  

Private_Citizen: I live in the WOW counties (Waukesha), and I have a Biden sign in my yard. It's different here than last time. There's still plenty of Republican support here, but for the first time in my memory, there's actual pushback and signs of blue.


Wife works as a dispatcher for a Waukesha county city, person called the department that a neighbor's have Biden signs out thinking it will "invite trouble".  These are the same people who (on a recorded line) asked her if they could stop a car full of black construction workers and make up that they saw them go through a red light.
 
2020-09-17 7:03:39 PM  

inglixthemad: I'd call Cedarburg a lot of things, idyllic isn't one of them at all.


"Terrifying" comes to mind
 
2020-09-17 7:06:22 PM  

Rambino: Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?

This discussion will never go anywhere unless people try to see things from other points of view.

If you start with the idea that fetuses are people, same as any one of us - - then how is legal abortion NOT the biggest atrocity of modern history? If the law permitted parents to kill their kids until age 5 (or whatever), would we not hold our nose and vote for Trump if that would make it stop?  Would we not be morally obligated to do so?

"Don't have an abortion if you don't like abortions" fundamentally misses the point of the issue.

The only way abortion is not morally equivalent to mass murder is if futuses are not "people," morally speaking. Which is the real issue.


That's understandable and true, but then being anti-birth control and education makes it difficult to compromise.
 
2020-09-17 7:09:58 PM  

LovesToSpooge: I used to live in Bayside Wisconsin. That is the model for rich suburbs in the Milwaukee area. Jews, blacks, whites, Russians, Polish, etc... Most diverse area I have ever lived in.

/ for whatever reason there were a ton of coyotes. One even ran off with a kid.


Well, I just had a mental image of the kid coming back seventeen years later dressed in leathers, carrying a spear, and calling himself "Mowgli," so there's that.
 
2020-09-17 7:16:48 PM  

LovesToSpooge: I used to live in Bayside Wisconsin. That is the model for rich suburbs in the Milwaukee area. Jews, blacks...



stopped reading there.jpg
 
2020-09-17 7:47:58 PM  

Private_Citizen: I live in the WOW counties (Waukesha), and I have a Biden sign in my yard. It's different here than last time. There's still plenty of Republican support here, but for the first time in my memory, there's actual pushback and signs of blue.


This was a pretty good article with respect to how the election may turn in one direction or another.  Yeah, watching these counties will be important.  No, Biden will not win them, but if he limits his losses here, he has a good shot at taking the state.

It's frustrating as all hell to listen to these people talk about abortion.  We are going about this issue all wrong as liberals.  We should be talking about anti-abortion laws not effectively decreasing abortions.  We should be talking about the most sure-fire way of decreasing abortion is sex education and easy access to birth control.  We should be talking about Colorado funding free reliable IUDs for women and dropping the abortion rate nearly by half, and saving three dollars for every dollar spent on the program because of lower unplanned pregnancies as well.

We shouldn't be talking about protecting the right to abortion with these people (even though patient autonomy is my number one reason for supporting legalized abortion, this isn't an effective argument with them).  With these people at least, we should be talking about what is effective and what isn't effective in decreasing abortions.  Anti-abortion laws are not effective, and they will eventually lead to "back alley" abortions that will end up killing the fetus AND the mother.

That's the only way we will get some of these people.  I've managed to talk a nurse that had never voted and finally registered, but said that she would most likely vote for conservative candidates because of abortion, to completely reconsider her vote.  Basically went through the reality of the situation.  Girls who have no hope for a bright future after pregnancy will abort.  So support unwed mothers.  Don't judge them, don't whisper about them behind their backs, support them when you see them at church and everybody else is whispering behind their back.  Second, support them economically.  So yeah, provide all the resources they'll need to raise a baby.  Give them that, and they'll be less likely to abort.  And of course, real sex ed with real access to real reliable birth control will greatly decrease abortions overall.

Liberals need to communicate the idea that we don't like abortions either.  It's not like any of us are going "yay!  abortions!".  we'd prefer they not be necessary.  But they are tough choices that women make under tough circumstances.  at work, some anesthesiologists will refuse to do anesthesia for abortions.  I have put my name in the hat to be called if any of my collagues refuse.  even if I'm not on call.  I hate doing those cases.  Honestly, It may not be PC to admit it but I hate doing those cases.  But it's not about me, and 99/100 times the reality that the patient is living is well beyond my knowledge or comprehension.  So I put my money where my mouth is and do these cases.  But it doesn't mean I don't want to decrease them.  That's what conservatives need to understand about most of us that still want to see abortion remain legal.
 
2020-09-17 7:54:45 PM  

Rambino: Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?

This discussion will never go anywhere unless people try to see things from other points of view.

If you start with the idea that fetuses are people, same as any one of us - - then how is legal abortion NOT the biggest atrocity of modern history? If the law permitted parents to kill their kids until age 5 (or whatever), would we not hold our nose and vote for Trump if that would make it stop?  Would we not be morally obligated to do so?

"Don't have an abortion if you don't like abortions" fundamentally misses the point of the issue.

The only way abortion is not morally equivalent to mass murder is if futuses are not "people," morally speaking. Which is the real issue.


something people who truly believe life begins at conception (and don't just want to punish sluts) need to consider: until viability outside the uterus, a zygote/embryo/fetus cannot survive on its own, even if hooked up to life support. the only way they exist is via another person's body, which actively changes and weakens the parent as needed to support the fetus, even up to including death. such changes and disabilities often last long or permanently after birth.

this is wholly incompatible with bodily autonomy, even if it's accepted that a fetus is a person alive from the moment of conception. thinking a parent gives permission for their body to be used this way when they consent to sex is also inconsistent. a parent can't be forced to use any part of themselves for the benefit of their post-birth child, not even so much as donating one unit of blood if it's the only way to save the kid they wanted so badly they went through 10 rounds of IVF. that's how important bodily autonomy is in our society.
 
2020-09-17 7:56:00 PM  

SumJackass07: Nadie_AZ: "Look, I disagree with Trump on a lot of things. I'm for immigration. I'm for a lot of these social justice causes. I break with Trump on some pretty fundamental issues. But, on the other hand, I disagree with Democrats on a fundamental issue: abortion. And it's hard for me to get over that. How can you advocate for social justice but approve of killing unborn babies? It makes no sense to me. So, what am I supposed to do?"
Don't get an abortion?

Someone should tell that pud what a hysterectomy is, what the Trump administration has been doing to immigrant women, and then using pro lifer math, where every egg in each of those women is an abortion, to show him how many abortions Trump has used his tax dollars to fund. You shouldn't have to explain the horror of the last part, but Jeff is a special kind of dense.


Those people are all farking morons.  Wisconsinites are generally nice, but in five years of living there they never impressed me with their penchant for expanding their horizons.

I joke that I left wisconsin because there's only so many conversations about the packers that a person can have, and I had reached my limit.  But it's not far off, the same damn conversation every day, and that's assuming you're not talking politics because then you'd just as soon want to poke your eyes out.  You can't reason with them because they don't have the information background to draw examples from.  They are ignorant of history, politics, everything.  Wisconsin actually produces world-class cheeses that compete with the best france and spain have to offer.  But they eat cheese curds.
 
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