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(Irish Central)   Ireland's schools may stop teaching "To Kill a Mockingbird" because it has too many n-words, not enough red-haired fighting drunkards   (irishcentral.com) divider line
    More: Sad, Education, Irish secondary school curriculum, Department of Education, famous books, Norma Foley, number of parents, Curriculum, Irish Junior Certificate syllabus  
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695 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Sep 2020 at 4:46 PM (3 days ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



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3 days ago  
Ireland?
 
3 days ago  
Bob Ewell was an Orangeman, anyway.
 
3 days ago  
Oh, guess what you shrinking violets. That's how people talked back then. Find a way to explain that to kids, or find a way to hide them from the Nazis again, your call.
 
3 days ago  

OtherLittleGuy: Bob Ewell was an Orangeman, anyway.


That explains a lot
 
3 days ago  
Its fine, the Irish have like 12 other ethnic slurs for black people.
 
3 days ago  

dothemath: Its fine, the Irish have like 12 other ethnic slurs for black people.


The Guard - I'm Irish, sure. Racism's part of my culture / Racist joke scene (part 8) HD
Youtube NrOVH-bLrq8
 
3 days ago  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
3 days ago  
Both literary classics, set in the Deep South, have appeared on the Irish Junior Certificate syllabus for years, but have now faced calls to be removed in the wake of the Black Lives Matter protests ignited by the killing of George Floyd in May. A number of parents, teachers, and students have emailed Norma Foley, Ireland's Minister for Education, directly to complain about the use of the n-word when the books are read aloud.

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
3 days ago  
Dennis Day - Clancy Lowered The Boom
Youtube lCty2Yo0ofg

It was a different time.
 
3 days ago  
The use of language is deliberate, and so it needs to be judged as to whether it is intended (in the author's usage, not in the character's usage) to be offensive. To Kill a Mockingbird is a very good story about right and wrong, and race and class in America. It's a difficult argument to take the book out of a reading curriculum.

Harper Lee's followup, Go Set a Watchman, is quite a bit different in tone, and it could absolutely be argued that its racist imagery is intended to justify racism rather than condemn it.
 
3 days ago  

We Ate the Necco Wafers: The use of language is deliberate, and so it needs to be judged as to whether it is intended (in the author's usage, not in the character's usage) to be offensive. To Kill a Mockingbird is a very good story about right and wrong, and race and class in America. It's a difficult argument to take the book out of a reading curriculum.

Harper Lee's followup, Go Set a Watchman, is quite a bit different in tone, and it could absolutely be argued that its racist imagery is intended to justify racism rather than condemn it.


Sometime after I graduated, my high school replaced TKMB with A Time to Kill by Grisham. I was very saddened to hear about the change.
 
3 days ago  
Dont tell them about Huckleberry Finn.
 
3 days ago  
Do something that would be much more effective....get rid of any rap song with the n-word.
 
3 days ago  

NuclearPenguins: [Youtube-video https://www.youtube.com/embed/lCty2Yo0​ofg]
It was a different time.


If there were a sniper who caught Jim Allister, Mary Lou McDonald and Dennis Day coming out of a meeting and only had 2 bullets, he'd shoot Dennis twice.

Or was is Daniel O'Donnell?
 
3 days ago  
Are you reading To Kill a Mockingbird just as a fun book to read or using it as a learning device to explore a white woman author's historical fictional view on race relations from a child's view and an adult's memory in the 1930s?
 
3 days ago  

CFitzsimmons: We Ate the Necco Wafers: The use of language is deliberate, and so it needs to be judged as to whether it is intended (in the author's usage, not in the character's usage) to be offensive. To Kill a Mockingbird is a very good story about right and wrong, and race and class in America. It's a difficult argument to take the book out of a reading curriculum.

Harper Lee's followup, Go Set a Watchman, is quite a bit different in tone, and it could absolutely be argued that its racist imagery is intended to justify racism rather than condemn it.

Sometime after I graduated, my high school replaced TKMB with A Time to Kill by Grisham. I was very saddened to hear about the change.


It's a cheap copy of To Kill a Mockingbird, certainly. But the movie has Matthew McConaughey and Samuel Jackson. The older movie only has Gregory Peck and Robert Duvall.
 
3 days ago  

We Ate the Necco Wafers: The use of language is deliberate, and so it needs to be judged as to whether it is intended (in the author's usage, not in the character's usage) to be offensive. To Kill a Mockingbird is a very good story about right and wrong, and race and class in America. It's a difficult argument to take the book out of a reading curriculum.

Harper Lee's followup, Go Set a Watchman, is quite a bit different in tone, and it could absolutely be argued that its racist imagery is intended to justify racism rather than condemn it.


Not a sequel. It seems to have been an early prototype. Closer to reality than the highly romanticized success of the published book.
 
3 days ago  

We Ate the Necco Wafers: The use of language is deliberate, and so it needs to be judged as to whether it is intended (in the author's usage, not in the character's usage) to be offensive. To Kill a Mockingbird is a very good story about right and wrong, and race and class in America. It's a difficult argument to take the book out of a reading curriculum.

Harper Lee's followup, Go Set a Watchman, is quite a bit different in tone, and it could absolutely be argued that its racist imagery is intended to justify racism rather than condemn it.


That book was also pushed out the door by her handlers and the publisher while she was suffering from neurological deterioration.
 
3 days ago  
Why were they teaching it anyway? It's a pretty America-specific story.
 
3 days ago  
Tsk, tsk, oh Danny boy.
 
3 days ago  
Replace all uses of the n-word with "ginger".

Both problems solved.
 
3 days ago  

bcostlow: Replace all uses of the n-word with "ginger".

Both problems solved.


Nah. We say 'robot' now.
https://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Huck​leberry-Finn-Robotic-Twain-ebook/dp/B0​06EPODGM#ace-g6796040015
 
3 days ago  

Igor Jakovsky: Dont tell them about Huckleberry Finn.


I still remember my Dad reading it to me back in elementary school...and I definitely recall him explaining "the n-word" to me and how I shouldn't go around using it.
 
3 days ago  
How 'bout Huckleberry Finn?

comb.ioView Full Size
 
3 days ago  

g.fro: Why were they teaching it anyway? It's a pretty America-specific story.


Why were they teaching Hamlet anyway? It's a pretty Denmark-specific story.
 
3 days ago  
Sort of off topic but I just finished reading Lair of the White Worm by Bram Stoker, only because it was supposed to be terrible and It was a 376 pages I will never get back selection.

Dear god it was hard to read, thanks in huge part to the over the top racism. I felt dirty reading it and wanted to burn the book when I was through so no one else has to read it.
 
3 days ago  
Let's ban a book on racial justice because of... racism?
 
3 days ago  
Ya, the Irish aren't noted for their taut prose..

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
3 days ago  
The issue is that they teach the book by reading it aloud, and so therefore black students are made uncomfortable every time certain words are used. Reading aloud has always seemed a pointless waste of time to me. Have the students read the book at home, then discuss it in class. Maybe they think lots of students won't read it, but when it is read aloud in class, a lot of students aren't paying attention anyway. It is the most boring way possible to 'teach' literature.
 
3 days ago  
The "L" word is regarded as fairly offensive by many Irish people.

\Just sayin'
 
3 days ago  

We Ate the Necco Wafers: CFitzsimmons: We Ate the Necco Wafers: The use of language is deliberate, and so it needs to be judged as to whether it is intended (in the author's usage, not in the character's usage) to be offensive. To Kill a Mockingbird is a very good story about right and wrong, and race and class in America. It's a difficult argument to take the book out of a reading curriculum.

Harper Lee's followup, Go Set a Watchman, is quite a bit different in tone, and it could absolutely be argued that its racist imagery is intended to justify racism rather than condemn it.

Sometime after I graduated, my high school replaced TKMB with A Time to Kill by Grisham. I was very saddened to hear about the change.

It's a cheap copy of To Kill a Mockingbird, certainly. But the movie has Matthew McConaughey and Samuel Jackson. The older movie only has Gregory Peck and Robert Duvall.


I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps the school committee was looking to add contemporary actors to the curriculum. High schools are strange.
 
3 days ago  
Makes me want to watch "Blazing Saddles" again. Ah, classic literature.
 
3 days ago  

Yoleus: The "L" word is regarded as fairly offensive by many Irish people.

\Just sayin'


Possible solutions to this ambiguous post:

Lyrical
Loose-limbed
Loofa
Lambaste
Lasso
Leap-frog (gets you shot in Derry)
Lug nuts (gets you beer in Derry)
Lorgnette
Lipizzaner
Lubricious
la-di-da
Lamarckian
 
3 days ago  

yakmans_dad: Yoleus: The "L" word is regarded as fairly offensive by many Irish people.

\Just sayin'

Possible solutions to this ambiguous post:

Lyrical
Loose-limbed
Loofa
Lambaste
Lasso
Leap-frog (gets you shot in Derry)
Lug nuts (gets you beer in Derry)
Lorgnette
Lipizzaner
Lubricious
la-di-da
Lamarckian


Lite-Beer...The answer is Lite-Beer...
 
3 days ago  

wiredroach: g.fro: Why were they teaching it anyway? It's a pretty America-specific story.

Why were they teaching Hamlet anyway? It's a pretty Denmark-specific story.


Actually it's not. It wasn't written in Denmark, by a Dane, addressing a major problem in Danish society, and came out at a time when a huge number of Danish children were coming of age to be able to understand it, and going on to become a fixture of high school Danish classes from then on.

We don't teach "Hamlet" because of the plot. We teach it because it's probably the best known work of the most famous and influential playwright in the history of the English language.

To Kill a Mockingbird is a perfectly good book, but it is over-rated. Maybe not as much as Catcher in the Rye but the main reason Mockingbird became a fixture of American curricula is that it is very loved by a certain generation of teachers. Somehow I doubt a generation of Irish kids grew up reading it, and relating to a character in a book on a personal level, probably for the first time. I'm sure there are Irish books they could better spend their time teaching.
 
3 days ago  

iamskibibitz: Let's ban a book on racial justice because of... racism?


I don't recall racial justice working out in that book.
 
3 days ago  
If you are a 12-year old white kid who's had no black friends* then To Kill a Mockingbird is a valuable read to cultivate some sense of empathy and history.

The problem is that a lot of schools end their teaching about racism right there and don't move on to writings by black writers, or by looking at racism that is happening in places besides the American South.

So it's use as a teaching tool is limited not by the repeated use of the n word, but the inadvertent impression that anti-black racism belongs to only a particular time and place, and also that black Americans are merely passive victims dependent on white people.

*Like me in 1978.
 
3 days ago  

RepoManTSM: iamskibibitz: Let's ban a book on racial justice because of... racism?

I don't recall racial justice working out in that book.


You realize that a theme can be taught without its actually having to happen in the plot, right?
 
3 days ago  

g.fro: We don't teach "Hamlet" because of the plot. We teach it because it's probably the best known work of the most famous and influential playwright in the history of the English language.


Of course we teach Hamlet because of the plot. A coming-of-age story in which the protagonist must struggle to decide between avenging his murdered father, killing himself, or living out his days as a coward? There's a reason it's the best known work of the most famous and influential playwright in the history of the English language.
 
3 days ago  

Mr. Shabooboo: Ya, the Irish aren't noted for their taut prose..

[Fark user image 227x222]


Taut prose?

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
3 days ago  
I was just watching the Simpsons episode where Homer has to pay more attention to Lisa, she's reading this book and he comments, "Just remember, it is set in the south a long time ago, the terrible racism you're reading about is now everywhere."

I spit my drink out due to the hilarity of accuracy but then I was just as sadden by its truth.
 
3 days ago  

wiredroach: g.fro: We don't teach "Hamlet" because of the plot. We teach it because it's probably the best known work of the most famous and influential playwright in the history of the English language.

Of course we teach Hamlet because of the plot. A coming-of-age story in which the protagonist must struggle to decide between avenging his murdered father, killing himself, or living out his days as a coward? There's a reason it's the best known work of the most famous and influential playwright in the history of the English language.


Obviously it's a situation many kids will find themselves in.

The plot is not the main point of "Hamlet" and not why it is almost universally taught in American classrooms. The language is.
 
3 days ago  

DanInKansas: If you are a 12-year old white kid who's had no black friends* then To Kill a Mockingbird is a valuable read to cultivate some sense of empathy and history.

The problem is that a lot of schools end their teaching about racism right there and don't move on to writings by black writers, or by looking at racism that is happening in places besides the American South.

So it's use as a teaching tool is limited not by the repeated use of the n word, but the inadvertent impression that anti-black racism belongs to only a particular time and place, and also that black Americans are merely passive victims dependent on white people.

*Like me in 1978.


In school I found Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison incredibly illuminating.  It made such an impact I still think about particular aspects many years on.  It's a lot more in-your-face though, and TKAM does it in a manner more understandable to kids and handles a lot more of the judicial aspect.
 
3 days ago  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
3 days ago  

g.fro: he plot is not the main point of "Hamlet" and not why it is almost universally taught in American classrooms. The language is.


The meaning of existence isn't why it's taught? Have you read it?
 
3 days ago  

Hooker with a Penis: Sort of off topic but I just finished reading Lair of the White Worm by Bram Stoker, only because it was supposed to be terrible and It was a 376 pages I will never get back selection.

Dear god it was hard to read, thanks in huge part to the over the top racism. I felt dirty reading it and wanted to burn the book when I was through so no one else has to read it.


Really? I had read it was hugely misogynistic, but not racist, really?
 
3 days ago  
They're probably upset because they finally figured out the hillbilly dad was the real rapist.
 
3 days ago  

wiredroach: g.fro: We don't teach "Hamlet" because of the plot. We teach it because it's probably the best known work of the most famous and influential playwright in the history of the English language.

Of course we teach Hamlet because of the plot. A coming-of-age story in which the protagonist must struggle to decide between avenging his murdered father, killing himself, or living out his days as a coward? There's a reason it's the best known work of the most famous and influential playwright in the history of the English language.


There's an essay by Guy Davenport about teaching literature in which he talked about assaying Don Quixote in a Kentucky classroom. A freshman had raised his hand in one of Davenport's classes and objected to the book because the hero was crazy. That may be, Davenport replied. Generations of readers have taken a stab at it. And now this is our chance.**

I really wouldn't want to be welded to a brief precis about what the meaning of Hamlet might be. The play opens with some scenes where Hamlet and others see the actuality of the ghost of Hamlet's father. Later, Hamlet sees his dad again, but his mother who is present doesn't. Did Shakespeare forget that early in his play ghosts are visible? In a famous soliloquy Hamlet describes death as the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns. Apparently forgetting that the play opens with a ghost just back from that undiscovered country. So, it's indeed possible that the monumental themes of the play slipped away from Willy's control.

**from an increasingly unreliable memory.
 
3 days ago  

We Ate the Necco Wafers: The use of language is deliberate, and so it needs to be judged as to whether it is intended (in the author's usage, not in the character's usage) to be offensive. To Kill a Mockingbird is a very good story about right and wrong, and race and class in America. It's a difficult argument to take the book out of a reading curriculum.

Harper Lee's followup, Go Set a Watchman, is quite a bit different in tone, and it could absolutely be argued that its racist imagery is intended to justify racism rather than condemn it.


No, that fanfic was to justify a moneygrab by her lawyer.
 
3 days ago  

ShutterGirl: Hooker with a Penis: Sort of off topic but I just finished reading Lair of the White Worm by Bram Stoker, only because it was supposed to be terrible and It was a 376 pages I will never get back selection.

Dear god it was hard to read, thanks in huge part to the over the top racism. I felt dirty reading it and wanted to burn the book when I was through so no one else has to read it.

Really? I had read it was hugely misogynistic, but not racist, really?


Oh yeah there is plenty of misogyny too, but there is an African character who is called less then human and whole subplot revolves around how savage he is and no one would care if he was killed in fact you would be doing the world a favor.
 
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