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(9News (Australia))   German researchers stage rock concert, use youngins' as guinea pigs 'to see how COVID-19 spreads'   (9news.com.au) divider line
    More: Interesting, Angela Merkel, Severe acute respiratory syndrome, Getty Images, experimental indoor concert, German researchers stage concert, contact trackers, Coronavirus, Event planning  
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2194 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Aug 2020 at 8:20 AM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



43 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2020-08-23 8:31:41 AM  
First reaction: They did what now?

After reading the article: Yeah, that makes sense.
 
2020-08-23 8:40:50 AM  
I knew there was something off about that Kraftwerk reunion.
 
2020-08-23 8:41:10 AM  
FTFA:  "Of course, a concert with Rammstein would be different," he said.

Oh, yes.  Yes it would.

And I'm not kidding.  That band is HUGE in Europe.  They pack arenas easily.  If you allowed 2000 of their fans into a small club, the place would go nuts.

People would probably die just from the crowd activity before the COVID got a chance.
 
2020-08-23 8:42:15 AM  
Sounds like a reasonable effort. You know use science. We can't have that here.
 
2020-08-23 8:42:25 AM  
Hopefully the data is useful. Very few to no ideal situations really, that involve large groups of people with Covid being a permanent part of our existence. shiatty way to get the data by putting folks at risk, but I think we actually need to see the results of something like this. It's not like we are gonna get any good data from the Sturgis crowd.

This seems to me one of those "do what you need to do, not what you want to do" type of situations. I hope all of the participants are otherwise healthy people.
 
TWX [TotalFark]
2020-08-23 8:45:04 AM  
Not the worst thing done in the name of German research.
 
2020-08-23 8:48:31 AM  
History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.
 
2020-08-23 8:50:33 AM  

bigdog1960: Sounds like a reasonable effort. You know use science. We can't have that here.


Fark user imageView Full Size


We have natural experiments running all the time
 
2020-08-23 8:53:43 AM  
The Germans have a word for this type of study:

Experimenteanjungenmenschendienichtwis​sendasssieteileinerwissenschaftlichens​tudiesindmengele.
 
2020-08-23 8:58:50 AM  
But some music fans in Leipzig, Germany, have been given the chance to rock for a day in the name of science

Probably a consolation prize for that beat down PSG gave them in the semis.
 
2020-08-23 9:01:28 AM  
Me: "I will need to access a personnel database as part of this study."
PowersThatBe: "Well, then, you'll need Human Subjects Research approval. Here's a bunch of paperwork you'll need to fill out that will get processed by an independent review board, and also you'll need to redo your proposal with this new template, and you'll need to take CITI training. Please list everyone who will be working on your project, provide their CV, and list exactly which databases will be accessed and why. You will need to determine exactly how much project time will be allocated to HSR and budget that into a separate CLIN. Expect document preparation, review, training, and so forth to cost $8k-$10k."

Meanwhile in Germany...
"Yo, Hans, vat do you say vee stick a whole bunch of dummkopfs in a stadium und see who gets zee COVID?"
"Jah, sounds cool. Approved."
 
2020-08-23 9:03:22 AM  
The Pope of Manwich Village
The Germans have a word for this type of study:

Experimenteanjungenmenschendienichtwis​sendasssieteileinerwissenschaftlichens​tudiesindmengele.


Almost; given that the participants are volunteers and know about the study, the "nicht" is in the wrong place:

Experimenteanjungenmenschendiewissenda​sssieteileinerwissenschaftlichenstudie​sindnichtmengele.
 
2020-08-23 9:04:30 AM  
You know... It wouldn't even be sporting to Godwin this thread.

It would be like beating up a little kid. Pfffff. :P
 
2020-08-23 9:07:48 AM  

Kriggerel: You know... It wouldn't even be sporting to Godwin this thread.

It would be like beating up a little kid. Pfffff. :P


Isn't that pretty much what Fark was made for?
 
2020-08-23 9:15:44 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: Me: "I will need to access a personnel database as part of this study."
PowersThatBe: "Well, then, you'll need Human Subjects Research approval. Here's a bunch of paperwork you'll need to fill out that will get processed by an independent review board, and also you'll need to redo your proposal with this new template, and you'll need to take CITI training. Please list everyone who will be working on your project, provide their CV, and list exactly which databases will be accessed and why. You will need to determine exactly how much project time will be allocated to HSR and budget that into a separate CLIN. Expect document preparation, review, training, and so forth to cost $8k-$10k."

Meanwhile in Germany...
"Yo, Hans, vat do you say vee stick a whole bunch of dummkopfs in a stadium und see who gets zee COVID?"
"Jah, sounds cool. Approved."


Yes. Because it's exactly like that here.
 
2020-08-23 9:22:18 AM  
To see how 'fluorescent hand gel' spreads.
 
2020-08-23 9:23:14 AM  

thealgorerhythm: History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.


Not that I approve of unethical human experimentation but understand the impulse to rationalize it as a greater good to cure a terrible disease and save lives. But for the last 30+ years of the study (it went on for more than 40) there was a cure for syphilis. Cruelty was the point.

The American Cancer society used to have an award for a doctor who admitted on his own correspondence to have experimented on Puerto Rican cancer patients by allowing the cancer to proceed without treatment and inserting cancer cells into healthy patients to see what would happen.

There was also a women's organization who had an award named for a medical researcher who helped develop the birth control pill. She participated in grotesque human experiments done in Puerto Rico where the subjects were told what the drug did but were not told it was an experiment. Many of them developed long-term health problems from receiving dosages of birth control hormones at levels that were ridiculously unsafe.
 
2020-08-23 9:38:23 AM  

kbronsito: thealgorerhythm: History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.

Not that I approve of unethical human experimentation but understand the impulse to rationalize it as a greater good to cure a terrible disease and save lives. But for the last 30+ years of the study (it went on for more than 40) there was a cure for syphilis. Cruelty was the point.

The American Cancer society used to have an award for a doctor who admitted on his own correspondence to have experimented on Puerto Rican cancer patients by allowing the cancer to proceed without treatment and inserting cancer cells into healthy patients to see what would happen.

There was also a women's organization who had an award named for a medical researcher who helped develop the birth control pill. She participated in grotesque human experiments done in Puerto Rico where the subjects were told what the drug did but were not told it was an experiment. Many of them developed long-term health problems from receiving dosages of birth control hormones at levels that were ridiculously unsafe.


I don't know why we don't use inmates, but with informed consent and money and time off.
I suspect humans are mean.
Which is odd.
Because we have all these ethics.
We will do great things at other people's expense
But
we won't do great things at people's expense and pay those people.
Meanwhile we claim that nothing is free.
I look at all of the that. And realize set everything else aside, we're legitimately mean-spirited.
 
2020-08-23 9:39:37 AM  

durbnpoisn: FTFA:  "Of course, a concert with Rammstein would be different," he said.

Oh, yes.  Yes it would.

And I'm not kidding.  That band is HUGE in Europe.  They pack arenas easily.  If you allowed 2000 of their fans into a small club, the place would go nuts.

People would probably die just from the crowd activity before the COVID got a chance.


They are huge HERE.

I went to my one and only concert to see Rammstein here in CA in 2011. Place was PACKED. We did have stupid Christers harassing us in line waiting to get in and filming the whole thing with cameras on tripods even, acting like us normal suburban folks were satanists or something, which has zero to do with Rammstein. We mostly ignored them. A fight broke out next to us during the concert because one idiot was throwing up Nazi salutes, which ALSO has nothing to do with Rammstein. THE BAND WAS SO LOUD I FELT IT IN MY BONES. And the FIRE, OMG THE FIRE!!! We were in the seating area, not in the standing part, yet we could feel the heat of the flames, especially during "Sonne". The concert was great, the music was incredible, but we determined we will never go to another concert again, even before COVID.
 
2020-08-23 9:40:32 AM  

durbnpoisn: FTFA:  "Of course, a concert with Rammstein would be different," he said.

Oh, yes.  Yes it would.

And I'm not kidding.  That band is HUGE in Europe.  They pack arenas easily.  If you allowed 2000 of their fans into a small club, the place would go nuts.

People would probably die just from the crowd activity before the COVID got a chance.


Came here to make a Rammstein joke but the researchers beat me to it.
 
2020-08-23 9:43:58 AM  

waxbeans: kbronsito: thealgorerhythm: History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.

Not that I approve of unethical human experimentation but understand the impulse to rationalize it as a greater good to cure a terrible disease and save lives. But for the last 30+ years of the study (it went on for more than 40) there was a cure for syphilis. Cruelty was the point.

The American Cancer society used to have an award for a doctor who admitted on his own correspondence to have experimented on Puerto Rican cancer patients by allowing the cancer to proceed without treatment and inserting cancer cells into healthy patients to see what would happen.

There was also a women's organization who had an award named for a medical researcher who helped develop the birth control pill. She participated in grotesque human experiments done in Puerto Rico where the subjects were told what the drug did but were not told it was an experiment. Many of them developed long-term health problems from receiving dosages of birth control hormones at levels that were ridiculously unsafe.

I don't know why we don't use inmates, but with informed consent and money and time off.
I suspect humans are mean.
Which is odd.
Because we have all these ethics.
We will do great things at other people's expense
But
we won't do great things at people's expense and pay those people.
Meanwhile we claim that nothing is free.
I look at all of the that. And realize set everything else aside, we're legitimately mean-spirited.


Prisoners can't consent. There is an unethical disparity in power there. It is also racist as fark to piggyback on our racist criminal justice system to have minorities over represented in our clinical research.
 
2020-08-23 10:00:18 AM  

kbronsito: waxbeans: kbronsito: thealgorerhythm: History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.

Not that I approve of unethical human experimentation but understand the impulse to rationalize it as a greater good to cure a terrible disease and save lives. But for the last 30+ years of the study (it went on for more than 40) there was a cure for syphilis. Cruelty was the point.

The American Cancer society used to have an award for a doctor who admitted on his own correspondence to have experimented on Puerto Rican cancer patients by allowing the cancer to proceed without treatment and inserting cancer cells into healthy patients to see what would happen.

There was also a women's organization who had an award named for a medical researcher who helped develop the birth control pill. She participated in grotesque human experiments done in Puerto Rico where the subjects were told what the drug did but were not told it was an experiment. Many of them developed long-term health problems from receiving dosages of birth control hormones at levels that were ridiculously unsafe.

I don't know why we don't use inmates, but with informed consent and money and time off.
I suspect humans are mean.
Which is odd.
Because we have all these ethics.
We will do great things at other people's expense
But
we won't do great things at people's expense and pay those people.
Meanwhile we claim that nothing is free.
I look at all of the that. And realize set everything else aside, we're legitimately mean-spirited.

Prisoners can't consent. There is an unethical disparity in power there. It is also racist as fark to piggyback on our racist criminal justice system to have minorities over represented in our clinical research.


Well, yeah we need a ton of work on our justice system. If the victim is likeable enough or the crime ugly enough the reasonable doubt threshold goes way down.
Add to that if the suspect isn't likeable the suspect is rowing upstream.

You've probably never seen my comments before.
I'm anti cop, mostly. And pro defendant.
I'd rather set
10 people free than convict one innocent one.
Hell, I think most crime should be tickets and house arrest.

But, I live in the real world.
We allow Alfred Pleas.

People facing decades in prison will need money and will need to do less time. This is a chance to get paid, get out, and make amends.
 
2020-08-23 10:01:58 AM  

kbronsito: waxbeans: kbronsito: thealgorerhythm: History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.

Not that I approve of unethical human experimentation but understand the impulse to rationalize it as a greater good to cure a terrible disease and save lives. But for the last 30+ years of the study (it went on for more than 40) there was a cure for syphilis. Cruelty was the point.

The American Cancer society used to have an award for a doctor who admitted on his own correspondence to have experimented on Puerto Rican cancer patients by allowing the cancer to proceed without treatment and inserting cancer cells into healthy patients to see what would happen.

There was also a women's organization who had an award named for a medical researcher who helped develop the birth control pill. She participated in grotesque human experiments done in Puerto Rico where the subjects were told what the drug did but were not told it was an experiment. Many of them developed long-term health problems from receiving dosages of birth control hormones at levels that were ridiculously unsafe.

I don't know why we don't use inmates, but with informed consent and money and time off.
I suspect humans are mean.
Which is odd.
Because we have all these ethics.
We will do great things at other people's expense
But
we won't do great things at people's expense and pay those people.
Meanwhile we claim that nothing is free.
I look at all of the that. And realize set everything else aside, we're legitimately mean-spirited.

Prisoners can't consent. There is an unethical disparity in power there. It is also racist as fark to piggyback on our racist criminal justice system to have minorities over represented in our clinical research.


But at least we'd finally have minorities represented in biomedical research.

Even better, use women's prisons, so that women as well are finally represented.

Good night, standard white man biomedical modeling.

/s

Seriously tho, medical models are overwhelmingly built on white man biology, no diversity in study groups.
 
2020-08-23 10:06:12 AM  

waxbeans: kbronsito: waxbeans: kbronsito: thealgorerhythm: History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.

Not that I approve of unethical human experimentation but understand the impulse to rationalize it as a greater good to cure a terrible disease and save lives. But for the last 30+ years of the study (it went on for more than 40) there was a cure for syphilis. Cruelty was the point.

The American Cancer society used to have an award for a doctor who admitted on his own correspondence to have experimented on Puerto Rican cancer patients by allowing the cancer to proceed without treatment and inserting cancer cells into healthy patients to see what would happen.

There was also a women's organization who had an award named for a medical researcher who helped develop the birth control pill. She participated in grotesque human experiments done in Puerto Rico where the subjects were told what the drug did but were not told it was an experiment. Many of them developed long-term health problems from receiving dosages of birth control hormones at levels that were ridiculously unsafe.

I don't know why we don't use inmates, but with informed consent and money and time off.
I suspect humans are mean.
Which is odd.
Because we have all these ethics.
We will do great things at other people's expense
But
we won't do great things at people's expense and pay those people.
Meanwhile we claim that nothing is free.
I look at all of the that. And realize set everything else aside, we're legitimately mean-spirited.

Prisoners can't consent. There is an unethical disparity in power there. It is also racist as fark to piggyback on our racist criminal justice system to have minorities over represented in our clinical research.

Well, yeah we need a ton of work on our justice system. If the victim is likeable enough or the crime ugly enough the reasonable doubt threshold goes way down.
Add to that if the suspect isn't likeable the suspect is rowing upstream.

You've probably never seen my comments before.
I'm anti cop, mostly. And pro defendant.
I'd rather set
10 people free than convict one innocent one.
Hell, I think most crime should be tickets and house arrest.

But, I live in the real world.
We allow Alfred Pleas.

People facing decades in prison will need money and will need to do less time. This is a chance to get paid, get out, and make amends.


If you'd ever been to a prison rodeo, you'd know that prisoners have no rights and can be forced into the most humiliating and dangerous situations for the promise of literally a couple of dollars and fresh air.

There is nobody in prison capable of freely deciding what happens to their body. That is the very definition of prison.

What you describe is a specific violation of the Eighth Amendment and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the US is a signatory.
 
2020-08-23 10:08:57 AM  

TWX: Not the worst thing done in the name of German research.


Tried to say that but afraid I'd mangle the words.
 
2020-08-23 10:10:29 AM  

durbnpoisn: FTFA:  "Of course, a concert with Rammstein would be different," he said.

Oh, yes.  Yes it would.

And I'm not kidding.  That band is HUGE in Europe.  They pack arenas easily.  If you allowed 2000 of their fans into a small club, the place would go nuts.

People would probably die just from the crowd activity before the COVID got a chance.


Du

Du hast

Die krankheit
 
2020-08-23 10:15:13 AM  

thealgorerhythm: waxbeans: kbronsito: waxbeans: kbronsito: thealgorerhythm: History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.

Not that I approve of unethical human experimentation but understand the impulse to rationalize it as a greater good to cure a terrible disease and save lives. But for the last 30+ years of the study (it went on for more than 40) there was a cure for syphilis. Cruelty was the point.

The American Cancer society used to have an award for a doctor who admitted on his own correspondence to have experimented on Puerto Rican cancer patients by allowing the cancer to proceed without treatment and inserting cancer cells into healthy patients to see what would happen.

There was also a women's organization who had an award named for a medical researcher who helped develop the birth control pill. She participated in grotesque human experiments done in Puerto Rico where the subjects were told what the drug did but were not told it was an experiment. Many of them developed long-term health problems from receiving dosages of birth control hormones at levels that were ridiculously unsafe.

I don't know why we don't use inmates, but with informed consent and money and time off.
I suspect humans are mean.
Which is odd.
Because we have all these ethics.
We will do great things at other people's expense
But
we won't do great things at people's expense and pay those people.
Meanwhile we claim that nothing is free.
I look at all of the that. And realize set everything else aside, we're legitimately mean-spirited.

Prisoners can't consent. There is an unethical disparity in power there. It is also racist as fark to piggyback on our racist criminal justice system to have minorities over represented in our clinical research.

Well, yeah we need a ton of work on our justice system. If the victim is likeable enough or the crime ugly enough the reasonable doubt threshold goes way down.
Add to that if the suspect isn't likeable the suspect is rowing upstream.

You've probably never seen my comments before.
I'm anti cop, mostly. And pro defendant.
I'd rather set
10 people free than convict one innocent one.
Hell, I think most crime should be tickets and house arrest.

But, I live in the real world.
We allow Alfred Pleas.

People facing decades in prison will need money and will need to do less time. This is a chance to get paid, get out, and make amends.

If you'd ever been to a prison rodeo, you'd know that prisoners have no rights and can be forced into the most humiliating and dangerous situations for the promise of literally a couple of dollars and fresh air.

There is nobody in prison capable of freely deciding what happens to their body. That is the very definition of prison.

What you describe is a specific violation of the Eighth Amendment and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the US is a signatory.


True.
But for people facing life times in prison, literally life times. There should be hope of money and time off.
Mind I mean enough money to pay off restitution, and to have enough money to live off for the first year out.
Yeah it's ugly but it's hope.
Not every inmates case is pretty enough for the intervention of the Innocence Project.
This idea is for them. Otherwise what? Their doomed? Too bad so sad?
 
2020-08-23 10:15:57 AM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-23 10:58:04 AM  
This experimental population might be a step up from the traditional Mengele model of Jewish and Roma twins.
 
2020-08-23 11:21:47 AM  
Will not make a Nazi reference. Because that would be wrong.
 
2020-08-23 1:34:18 PM  

Fancy_Bear: This experimental population might be a step up from the traditional Mengele model of Jewish and Roma twins.


I figured the word twins would come up eventually.
 
2020-08-23 3:00:49 PM  
Subby if you are going to submit, at least read the article.  That isn't what they are doing.
 
2020-08-23 3:22:54 PM  

The Pope of Manwich Village: The Germans have a word for this type of study:

Experimenteanjungenmenschendienichtwis​sendasssieteileinerwissenschaftlichens​tudiesindmengele.


Thanks. Had to sanitize my phone after all that Covid spittle hit the screen.
 
2020-08-23 3:48:50 PM  
The problem is its apples to oranges. As another Farker above stated, they're really going to get great data on how dyed hand sanitizer is spread.

COVID is not primarily fomic; we don't really get it from touching inanimate objects. It's aerosolized. And depending on which paper you've read, R0 can be anywhere from 2 to 5.6.

There's a slight hint of Republicanism in the story. When one of the researchers states they're doing this because "they can't afford another shutdown" and that the task is to provide 'Politicians with the ability to make decisions based on the data collected." 

You can't emulate aerosolized transmission without properly measuring and examining the primary form of infection - which they're not doing here. 

This comes across as giving the illusion of meaningful work, when you're measuring the wrong set of variables. Which in turn, could easily result in the wrong set of guidelines being established. 

Every epidemiologist who's contacted me since I was infected and recovered has laughed when the subject of human gatherings has come up. All three have stated, matter-of-factly, that they wouldn't be caught outside dining with friends, and that going inside a restaurant or school is ludicrous. 

You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. You either eradicate this or you don't. You can't cheat a normal life into being when there's a highly virulent pathogen on the loose with (in the US) a 5.89% death rate.
 
2020-08-23 4:19:55 PM  

durbnpoisn: FTFA:  "Of course, a concert with Rammstein would be different," he said.

Oh, yes.  Yes it would.

And I'm not kidding.  That band is HUGE in Europe.  They pack arenas easily.  If you allowed 2000 of their fans into a small club, the place would go nuts.

People would probably die just from the crowd activity before the COVID got a chance.


Not to mention all the simulated sex acts.
 
2020-08-23 4:22:49 PM  

BitwiseShift: TWX: Not the worst thing done in the name of German research.

Tried to say that but afraid I'd mangle the words.


I'm afraid I'll Mengele the words.
 
2020-08-23 5:48:58 PM  

The Voice of Doom: The Pope of Manwich Village
The Germans have a word for this type of study:

Experimenteanjungenmenschendienichtwis​sendasssieteileinerwissenschaftlichens​tudiesindmengele.

Almost; given that the participants are volunteers and know about the study, the "nicht" is in the wrong place:

Experimenteanjungenmenschendiewissenda​sssieteileinerwissenschaftlichenstudie​sindnichtmengele.


German deserves every joke made about it, haha
 
2020-08-23 8:22:07 PM  

silvervial: durbnpoisn: FTFA:  "Of course, a concert with Rammstein would be different," he said.

Oh, yes.  Yes it would.

And I'm not kidding.  That band is HUGE in Europe.  They pack arenas easily.  If you allowed 2000 of their fans into a small club, the place would go nuts.

People would probably die just from the crowd activity before the COVID got a chance.

They are huge HERE.

I went to my one and only concert to see Rammstein here in CA in 2011. Place was PACKED. We did have stupid Christers harassing us in line waiting to get in and filming the whole thing with cameras on tripods even, acting like us normal suburban folks were satanists or something, which has zero to do with Rammstein. We mostly ignored them. A fight broke out next to us during the concert because one idiot was throwing up Nazi salutes, which ALSO has nothing to do with Rammstein. THE BAND WAS SO LOUD I FELT IT IN MY BONES. And the FIRE, OMG THE FIRE!!! We were in the seating area, not in the standing part, yet we could feel the heat of the flames, especially during "Sonne". The concert was great, the music was incredible, but we determined we will never go to another concert again, even before COVID.


Dude...  When you go swimming for the first time, you don't start with cliff diving.
You start smaller.
 
2020-08-23 8:50:00 PM  
You know who else performed horrific, dehumanizing experiments with a large audience?


That's right. Gallagher.

//those poor watermelons..
 
2020-08-23 8:50:42 PM  
I hate it when I can't remember what the comment I made that referenced a deleted comment was.

Getting old sucks, and that sentence was awkward.
 
2020-08-23 10:04:29 PM  

waxbeans: thealgorerhythm: waxbeans: kbronsito: waxbeans: kbronsito: thealgorerhythm: History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.

Not that I approve of unethical human experimentation but understand the impulse to rationalize it as a greater good to cure a terrible disease and save lives. But for the last 30+ years of the study (it went on for more than 40) there was a cure for syphilis. Cruelty was the point.

The American Cancer society used to have an award for a doctor who admitted on his own correspondence to have experimented on Puerto Rican cancer patients by allowing the cancer to proceed without treatment and inserting cancer cells into healthy patients to see what would happen.

There was also a women's organization who had an award named for a medical researcher who helped develop the birth control pill. She participated in grotesque human experiments done in Puerto Rico where the subjects were told what the drug did but were not told it was an experiment. Many of them developed long-term health problems from receiving dosages of birth control hormones at levels that were ridiculously unsafe.

I don't know why we don't use inmates, but with informed consent and money and time off.
I suspect humans are mean.
Which is odd.
Because we have all these ethics.
We will do great things at other people's expense
But
we won't do great things at people's expense and pay those people.
Meanwhile we claim that nothing is free.
I look at all of the that. And realize set everything else aside, we're legitimately mean-spirited.

Prisoners can't consent. There is an unethical disparity in power there. It is also racist as fark to piggyback on our racist criminal justice system to have minorities over represented in our clinical research.

Well, yeah we need a ton of work on our justice system. If the victim is likeable enough or the crime ugly enough the reasonable doubt threshold goes way down.
Add to that if the suspect isn't likeable the suspect is rowing upstream.

You've probably never seen my comments before.
I'm anti cop, mostly. And pro defendant.
I'd rather set
10 people free than convict one innocent one.
Hell, I think most crime should be tickets and house arrest.

But, I live in the real world.
We allow Alfred Pleas.

People facing decades in prison will need money and will need to do less time. This is a chance to get paid, get out, and make amends.

If you'd ever been to a prison rodeo, you'd know that prisoners have no rights and can be forced into the most humiliating and dangerous situations for the promise of literally a couple of dollars and fresh air.

There is nobody in prison capable of freely deciding what happens to their body. That is the very definition of prison.

What you describe is a specific violation of the Eighth Amendment and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the US is a signatory.

True.
But for people facing life times in prison, literally life times. There should be hope of money and time off.
Mind I mean enough money to pay off restitution, and to have enough money to live off for the first year out.
Yeah it's ugly but it's hope.
Not every inmates case is pretty enough for the intervention of the Innocence Project.
This idea is for them. Otherwise what? Their doomed? Too bad so sad?


You know what medical science does just fine without: experimentation on prisoners.

Literally every medical advance you've ever benefited from didn't come from experimentation on prisoners.

Now fark off and die. Bye.
 
2020-08-24 6:26:59 AM  
"Of course, a concert with Rammstein would be different," he said.

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Just a tad.
 
2020-08-24 5:17:59 PM  

thealgorerhythm: waxbeans: thealgorerhythm: waxbeans: kbronsito: waxbeans: kbronsito: thealgorerhythm: History Lesson: the two biggest influences on current international laws about human rights in medical experimentation were 1. Nazi prison camps, and 2. The United States' Tuskegee syphilis experiments on black people.

This experiment, which does seem worthwhile, had to demonstrate to a panel of experts and community representatives that any risk involved was acceptable given the benefit potential to society. Furthermore, all participants have to be given permission slips that explain exactly what is going on, and giving them the right to quit at any time and call a review office with complaints.

Not that I approve of unethical human experimentation but understand the impulse to rationalize it as a greater good to cure a terrible disease and save lives. But for the last 30+ years of the study (it went on for more than 40) there was a cure for syphilis. Cruelty was the point.

The American Cancer society used to have an award for a doctor who admitted on his own correspondence to have experimented on Puerto Rican cancer patients by allowing the cancer to proceed without treatment and inserting cancer cells into healthy patients to see what would happen.

There was also a women's organization who had an award named for a medical researcher who helped develop the birth control pill. She participated in grotesque human experiments done in Puerto Rico where the subjects were told what the drug did but were not told it was an experiment. Many of them developed long-term health problems from receiving dosages of birth control hormones at levels that were ridiculously unsafe.

I don't know why we don't use inmates, but with informed consent and money and time off.
I suspect humans are mean.
Which is odd.
Because we have all these ethics.
We will do great things at other people's expense
But
we won't do great things at people's expense and pay those people.
Meanwhile we claim that nothing is free.
I look at all of the that. And realize set everything else aside, we're legitimately mean-spirited.

Prisoners can't consent. There is an unethical disparity in power there. It is also racist as fark to piggyback on our racist criminal justice system to have minorities over represented in our clinical research.

Well, yeah we need a ton of work on our justice system. If the victim is likeable enough or the crime ugly enough the reasonable doubt threshold goes way down.
Add to that if the suspect isn't likeable the suspect is rowing upstream.

You've probably never seen my comments before.
I'm anti cop, mostly. And pro defendant.
I'd rather set
10 people free than convict one innocent one.
Hell, I think most crime should be tickets and house arrest.

But, I live in the real world.
We allow Alfred Pleas.

People facing decades in prison will need money and will need to do less time. This is a chance to get paid, get out, and make amends.

If you'd ever been to a prison rodeo, you'd know that prisoners have no rights and can be forced into the most humiliating and dangerous situations for the promise of literally a couple of dollars and fresh air.

There is nobody in prison capable of freely deciding what happens to their body. That is the very definition of prison.

What you describe is a specific violation of the Eighth Amendment and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the US is a signatory.

True.
But for people facing life times in prison, literally life times. There should be hope of money and time off.
Mind I mean enough money to pay off restitution, and to have enough money to live off for the first year out.
Yeah it's ugly but it's hope.
Not every inmates case is pretty enough for the intervention of the Innocence Project.
This idea is for them. Otherwise what? Their doomed? Too bad so sad?

You know what medical science does just fine without: experimentation on prisoners.

Literally every medical advance you've ever benefited from didn't come from experimentation on prisoners.

Now fark off and die. Bye.


So you really believe people's facing life times in prison should not have any chance to get out?
 
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