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(The Atlantic)   Want to get in the mood for the 2020 election season? Here's an oral history of the Bush-Gore Florida recount   (theatlantic.com) divider line
    More: Interesting, Supreme Court of the United States, George W. Bush, Al Gore, Bush v. Gore, intervention of courts, Vice President Al Gore, Florida Supreme Court, Texas Governor George W. Bush  
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387 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Aug 2020 at 1:13 PM (9 weeks ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook



34 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2020-08-18 8:33:01 AM  
Bush, Gore oral in Florida...dude, I just woke up.
 
2020-08-18 9:44:30 AM  
I don't need to relive that shiat-show.  That was my second-to-last semester of college and I knew the world was going to change for the worse and things were going to go to shiat for the average Joe.  I remember looking at the job ads for IT jobs in the paper the last year of the Clinton Presidency and seeing pages and pages.  The month I graduated, the May following the election, there wasn't even half a page of IT jobs and all of those were recruiter postings.

I don't know whose fault that is but I sure know they didn't give a shiat.  All you heard from neocons was things like "companies are only emboldened to shareholders" and "you're only worth your street value as an employee" and "the company should do what they want" and similar.  And at the same time they're talking about how you "get what you earn" and "hard work merits reward".  It was the start of having to listen to thoughtless platitudes from emotionally biased dipshiats.
 
2020-08-18 10:00:07 AM  
You ain't seen nothing yet!
 
2020-08-18 12:00:54 PM  
We'll be fine.  Brooks Brothers went bankrupt.
 
2020-08-18 12:33:25 PM  
My memory of this is as fresh as if it happened yesterday (I'll probably read this anyway).  Only time I've ever watched cable news all day and night.  I can't imagine how out of control this would be with Twitter in the mix.  Keep Seth Abramson the hell away from FL please.

/seriously, if this happens again, with Trump involved, we're screwed
 
Juc
2020-08-18 1:14:44 PM  
Oral history of bush !!! ... and ... gore?

gross.
 
2020-08-18 1:15:28 PM  

Diogenes: We'll be fine.  Brooks Brothers went bankrupt.


Oh... did Trump buy the company?
 
2020-08-18 1:16:00 PM  
Trump will win 2020 because the GOP cheats on a massive scale and Mitch Turtle-Man McConnell rigged the court with right-wing nutjob judges.
 
2020-08-18 1:17:03 PM  
all you need to remember:

Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-18 1:21:03 PM  
2020 is going to be like this but for every swing state. Vote as early as possible and get everyone you know to vote early. Keep repeating to anyone who will listen that if no winner is declared Trump still is out of office on Jan 20th.
 
2020-08-18 1:24:58 PM  
I remember when the American Taliban hijacked the executive branch, ignored a credible threat, allowed 9/11 to happen then used their own failure to prevent the 9/11 attacks to shove the Patriot Act™ up all of our asses and lie us into an illegal for-profit war in Iraq.

It's why I still refer to COVID as Slowdumb 9/11
 
2020-08-18 1:29:18 PM  

Short Victoria's War: all you need to remember:

[Fark user image image 700x869]


What I'm worried about this time is, as soon as they have a lead in a swing state, they'll say "that's all folks, too late for mail-in ballots!"  In places where they're behind, that state's government (usually Secretary of State) will decide to keep counting until they see a lead.
 
2020-08-18 1:40:58 PM  
When I was 14 I was in the 2000 SE Regional Yo-Yo Contest in Tallahassee and this was the commemorative yo-yo for the event:

picclickimg.comView Full Size
 
2020-08-18 1:45:25 PM  
Bush and Gore were less than 0.01% apart.  At that point you've counted all the clean ballots, you've made a decision on all the hard ballots, and you are down to trying desperately to subjectively interpret the junk ballots while people yell at you from all angles.

If 2020 is anywhere as close as Florida 2000 was, we are hosed.  Trump will unilaterally declare victory, and things will get really ugly.
 
2020-08-18 1:54:27 PM  
Bush still wins Florida in newspaper recount


April 4, 2001

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- If a recount of Florida's disputed votes in last year's close presidential election had been allowed to proceed by the U.S. Supreme Court, Republican George W. Bush still would have won the White House, two newspapers reported Wednesday.

The Miami Herald and USA Today conducted a comprehensive review of 64,248 "undercounted" ballots in Florida's 67 counties that ended last month.

Their count showed that Bush's razor-thin margin of 537 votes -- certified in December by the Florida Secretary of State's office -- would have tripled to 1,665 votes if counted according to standards advocated by his Democratic rival, former Vice President Al Gore.

"In the end, I think we probably confirmed that President Bush should have been president of the United States," said Mark Seibel, the paper's managing editor. "I think that it was worthwhile because so many people had questions about how the ballots had been handled and how the process had worked."

Ironically, a tougher standard of counting only cleanly punched ballots advocated by many Republicans would have resulted in a Gore lead of just three votes, the newspaper reported...

/...triggering another recount
//Bush is a war criminal IMHO, an unwitting one, but a war criminal
///W. Bush is the reason I voted a straight democrat ticket in 2008 - four years later I'd seen Obummer was a Marxist and didn't repeat the mistake
 
2020-08-18 1:55:50 PM  
Democrats have a history of being able to accept their losses.
 
2020-08-18 1:56:09 PM  
*unable

durr
 
2020-08-18 1:59:30 PM  

SomeAmerican: Bush and Gore were less than 0.01% apart.  At that point you've counted all the clean ballots, you've made a decision on all the hard ballots, and you are down to trying desperately to subjectively interpret the junk ballots while people yell at you from all angles.

If 2020 is anywhere as close as Florida 2000 was, we are hosed.  Trump will unilaterally declare victory, and things will get really ugly.


I thought at the time, and would still like to see it happen, that a run off would be appropriate in a state that is that close. Set .05 or some other number that makes some statistical sense as the threshold and then kick off a revote. Would you include the farkers that couldn't be assed to voted the first time? I don't know, just seemed like having the Supremes make a political decision bit and that there had to be better way.
 
2020-08-18 2:04:29 PM  
Didn't read tfa but if they're blaming Nader, they can fark off.
 
2020-08-18 2:05:04 PM  

fernt: Bush still wins Florida in newspaper recount


April 4, 2001

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- If a recount of Florida's disputed votes in last year's close presidential election had been allowed to proceed by the U.S. Supreme Court, Republican George W. Bush still would have won the White House, two newspapers reported Wednesday.

The Miami Herald and USA Today conducted a comprehensive review of 64,248 "undercounted" ballots in Florida's 67 counties that ended last month.

Their count showed that Bush's razor-thin margin of 537 votes -- certified in December by the Florida Secretary of State's office -- would have tripled to 1,665 votes if counted according to standards advocated by his Democratic rival, former Vice President Al Gore.

"In the end, I think we probably confirmed that President Bush should have been president of the United States," said Mark Seibel, the paper's managing editor. "I think that it was worthwhile because so many people had questions about how the ballots had been handled and how the process had worked."

Ironically, a tougher standard of counting only cleanly punched ballots advocated by many Republicans would have resulted in a Gore lead of just three votes, the newspaper reported...

/...triggering another recount
//Bush is a war criminal IMHO, an unwitting one, but a war criminal
///W. Bush is the reason I voted a straight democrat ticket in 2008 - four years later I'd seen Obummer was a Marxist and didn't repeat the mistake


Man, if you think Obama was a Marxist, I pray you never see what Bernie Sanders is up to.
 
2020-08-18 2:07:10 PM  
Gore won the popular vote by over half a million American voters.
 
2020-08-18 2:07:48 PM  

UberDave: I don't need to relive that shiat-show.  That was my second-to-last semester of college and I knew the world was going to change for the worse and things were going to go to shiat for the average Joe.  I remember looking at the job ads for IT jobs in the paper the last year of the Clinton Presidency and seeing pages and pages.  The month I graduated, the May following the election, there wasn't even half a page of IT jobs and all of those were recruiter postings.

I don't know whose fault that is but I sure know they didn't give a shiat.  All you heard from neocons was things like "companies are only emboldened to shareholders" and "you're only worth your street value as an employee" and "the company should do what they want" and similar.  And at the same time they're talking about how you "get what you earn" and "hard work merits reward".  It was the start of having to listen to thoughtless platitudes from emotionally biased dipshiats.


There's a lot we can blame Bush for, but the .com crash was pretty much inevitable.  Too much money flying around, not enough results.

Definitely agree that the Republicans didn't give a shiat, though.  They never do.
 
2020-08-18 2:10:24 PM  
Trump has already declared victory and that if he doesn't win then the election is fake, rigged, etc..  I think enough people are tired of this jackass his constant lies and won't go anywhere.
 
2020-08-18 2:14:17 PM  
Gore would have won if he had requested a recount in every county.
About 30,000 ballots were thrown out as overvotes in Duval County and Gore's campaign wasn't interested for some reason.  The ballots were destroyed at midnight on the deadline.  Later the republican supervisor posted some detailed stats showing most of the overvotes were from a handful of heavily black precincts.  Anecdotally, there were reports that the staff at those precincts were given different instructions than the others, but no one was ever made to testify under oath about it.
 
2020-08-18 2:16:25 PM  
Hopefully the loser asks for a full recount from the getgo instead of nibbling around favorable counties.  Thus drawing it out to the drop dead date with no clear answer.
 
2020-08-18 2:19:05 PM  
Fark user imageView Full Size
 
2020-08-18 2:20:19 PM  

GentDirkly: Gore would have won if he had requested a recount in every county.
About 30,000 ballots were thrown out as overvotes in Duval County and Gore's campaign wasn't interested for some reason.  The ballots were destroyed at midnight on the deadline.  Later the republican supervisor posted some detailed stats showing most of the overvotes were from a handful of heavily black precincts.  Anecdotally, there were reports that the staff at those precincts were given different instructions than the others, but no one was ever made to testify under oath about it.


Yeah, that was a huge mistake.  Politically also, by cherry picking the most favorable counties.  It was the FL Supreme Court that decided they should recount the whole state.  Gore should have asked for that at the outset
 
2020-08-18 2:24:43 PM  

fernt: Bush still wins Florida in newspaper recount


April 4, 2001

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- If a recount of Florida's disputed votes in last year's close presidential election had been allowed to proceed by the U.S. Supreme Court, Republican George W. Bush still would have won the White House, two newspapers reported Wednesday.

The Miami Herald and USA Today conducted a comprehensive review of 64,248 "undercounted" ballots in Florida's 67 counties that ended last month.

Their count showed that Bush's razor-thin margin of 537 votes -- certified in December by the Florida Secretary of State's office -- would have tripled to 1,665 votes if counted according to standards advocated by his Democratic rival, former Vice President Al Gore.

"In the end, I think we probably confirmed that President Bush should have been president of the United States," said Mark Seibel, the paper's managing editor. "I think that it was worthwhile because so many people had questions about how the ballots had been handled and how the process had worked."

Ironically, a tougher standard of counting only cleanly punched ballots advocated by many Republicans would have resulted in a Gore lead of just three votes, the newspaper reported...

/...triggering another recount
//Bush is a war criminal IMHO, an unwitting one, but a war criminal
///W. Bush is the reason I voted a straight democrat ticket in 2008 - four years later I'd seen Obummer was a Marxist and didn't repeat the mistake


Obama was and is far from a Marxist.

Marxism is a political and economic way of organizing society, where the workers own the means of production.

I don't recall Obama nationalizing industries. I do recall him letting the free market stay in control of health care. Seems like a pretty poor marxist.
 
2020-08-18 2:34:32 PM  
Best Quote:

David Boies (Gore lawyer):   When I arrived at the offices in Tallahassee, I was greeted by Ron Klain, who said, "Welcome to Guatemala."
 
2020-08-18 2:56:17 PM  

Kangaroo_Ralph: Democrats have a history of being able to accept their losses.


Kangaroo_Ralph: *unable

durr


Said, poorly, in defense of Trump.

You know, most parody accounts aren't supposed to be parodies of their owners.
 
2020-08-18 3:01:42 PM  
Gore was a weak-willed moron, so there is some hope that Biden will know better and come out swinging.

But yeah, this was obvious from the moment they started stacking courts but you couldn't hear anyone pointing it out over the last couple years because of all the herp di derp di doo dipshiats screeching about how voting in November is the answer to all our problems in a vain effort to prevent themselves from having to do more than bubble in a circle.

/This will all end in blood. It's exactly what we as a nation deserve for being so unutterably stupid and selfish for so long.
//I genuinely hate the right-wing trash that dragged us into this morass. I still got flow with my rhyme scheme, though.
///Assuming I make it through whatever hell on earth we encounter in December, I'm going to laugh my ass off about this in a few years. What a stupid, stupid, way for the #1'muricafarkyeah country in the world to be brought low. Putin is going to be like smart Hitler in a half a decade when he starts gobbling up every small nation in sight with no resistance from the crumbling democracies that he defeated without firing a shot.
 
2020-08-18 3:20:54 PM  

Wrongo: SomeAmerican: Bush and Gore were less than 0.01% apart.  At that point you've counted all the clean ballots, you've made a decision on all the hard ballots, and you are down to trying desperately to subjectively interpret the junk ballots while people yell at you from all angles.

If 2020 is anywhere as close as Florida 2000 was, we are hosed.  Trump will unilaterally declare victory, and things will get really ugly.

I thought at the time, and would still like to see it happen, that a run off would be appropriate in a state that is that close. Set .05 or some other number that makes some statistical sense as the threshold and then kick off a revote. Would you include the farkers that couldn't be assed to voted the first time? I don't know, just seemed like having the Supremes make a political decision bit and that there had to be better way.


But that's the same problem, but with twice the risk.

All systems have experimental error.

Current system: 50% +1. Suppose the actual vote count as measured by an Omniscient God Himself was 10,000,000 to 10,000,001. But you can't count that because all systems of measurement have experimental error. Even if every ballot is on paper - someone's going to have their pencil break before they've filled in the ballot. Someone's going to sneeze (and a few dozen voters with Parkinson's) will marking an "X" in a circle or draw a checkmark and it'll look like a √ that got crossed out. Someone's going to vote angry and puncture the paper while writing it. If a machine reads a ballot some of them are going to get caught in paper jams. pregnant chads, hanging chads, maybe a poorly printed ballot's going to have a chad fall out of it, etc.

So what you can actually measure is probably more like 10,000,000 plus or minus 100-200 on a good day, and plus or minus 1000-2000 on a bad day. Everybody goes to court. Everybody makes an argument. Three weeks later, some recount will produce a result that ends up as 9,999,900 to 10,000,101 or 10,000,101 to 9,999,900.

Let's try this your way: 0.05% error, automatic re-election. Any election in our 20,000,001 population state must be won by 50% plus 10,000 votes. Otherwise, the loser gets a mulligan - a revote/tiebreaker election.

A result of 9,995,000 to 10,005,001 is a 10001-vote win - more than 0.05%, no recount. A result of 9,995,001 to 10,005,000 is 9999 out of 20millionandone, and is less than 0.05%, automatic revote. (And, of course, there are two scenarios in which this can happen -- the other candidate might be up by 0.0499999...% vs 0.050000...1%

Which means there are now two election scenarios in which everybody calls their lawyers and spends the next six weeks in court arguing whether recounts are required to determine whether the winning candidate won the election by the necessary 10001 votes or lost the right to claim his or her seat election despite being 9999 votes ahead. (From the other side -- did the losing candidate win the right to a second chance by being within the 0.05% margin for error, or did they lose fair and square by two votes needed to push the spread from 9999 to 10001?)

It doesn't solve the fundamental problem; nobody except a hypothetical (i.e., nonexistent) omniscient God can know whether the margin of victory was 10001 or 9999 votes. All of the sources of experimental error in the current system still exist in the new system, except with the added wrinkle that the tiebreaker/runoff election (itself delayed by weeks of recounts and litigation over how to count the margin of victory to see if a runoff election is even necessary) has to be run within days, and is still subject to the risk of another tie/recount. Eventually the clock runs out and either the seat goes vacant. Given the additional risks and delays that come with litigation - and in the case of a US Presidential election, the Equal Protection Clause implications that "hey, voters in State X get to use information about the state of the world from Nov 3rd to December Wheneverth to cast their votes by Jan 20th, which kinda disadvantages the other 49 states" - it's probably best to make the win/loss decision on whatever votes were properly cast by the original Election's deadline.

The best you can really hope for is to come up with voting systems that minimize experimental error. Pencils and papers are probably better than scantrons and punch cards. Scantrons and punch cards are probably better than easily-compromised touchscreen/computer gadgets. But all systems are going to have some error, and there's always going to be the risk that the vote itself may be a statistical dead heat.
 
2020-08-18 9:51:30 PM  
Unsafe at any decade
 
2020-08-19 11:41:25 AM  

Naido: GentDirkly: Gore would have won if he had requested a recount in every county.
About 30,000 ballots were thrown out as overvotes in Duval County and Gore's campaign wasn't interested for some reason.  The ballots were destroyed at midnight on the deadline.  Later the republican supervisor posted some detailed stats showing most of the overvotes were from a handful of heavily black precincts.  Anecdotally, there were reports that the staff at those precincts were given different instructions than the others, but no one was ever made to testify under oath about it.

Yeah, that was a huge mistake.  Politically also, by cherry picking the most favorable counties.  It was the FL Supreme Court that decided they should recount the whole state.  Gore should have asked for that at the outset


Actually it looks like my memories might be off.
I see an article from 2010 saying all the ballots were preserved except Bay county.  In 2001, the Chicago Tribune claimed they were able to examine 15 of the 66 preserved sets of ballots and found about 366 net new votes for Gore from the pile of machine counted overvotes and undervotes, but they didn't look at Duval.  Then I saw an article saying that the ballots have now decayed and can't be read anymore, but now I can't find it.
 
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